I visited the Shires factory in the early 2010s and noticed that every time the worker needed to change out the bell/valve section, he had to keep the assembly screws loose to get the tuning slide to move freely. I also have a student who recently bought a Shires setup from an area dealer, and his tuning slide basically doesn't move at all when the screws are tight and barely move when the screws are loose. We've tried every weight/thickness of tuning slide grease with no luck. I have a medium bore shires that moves fine except for the last 1/2 inch until it's in fully closed position, then I really have to kind of force it. By contrast, my custom assembled bell section (work done by an expert local tech) and a Getzen/Edwards I have move completely freely with no issue, which leads me to the following questions:

-Has anyone else noticed an issue with their Shires setup or when interchanging parts? It seems like the tight tolerance may be worse with post-Eastman production but still occurred pre-Eastman

-Is there a benefit/drawback to having such tight tolerances in the tuning slide?

-I cannot conceive how an assembly with that tight of a tolerance is truly "tension free", does this impact tension and resonance of the instrument? When screwing the assembly screws tight, sometimes they tighten until they reaching a stopping point (normal I'm assuming) and others the torsion feels like something is being pulled towards it like when you screw two pieces of wood together (no way this is a tension free assembly in my thought process).

Actually I took mine to my tech. I have two bells that should be interchangeable but the yellow bell put a lot of tension on the tuning slide. The tech removed a little (stress little) metal from the mounting posts. It's still snug but movable. He didn't want to remove too much so the gold bell would be too loose.

Mass production and close tolerances really require some adjustments.

The job was so simple he didn't even charge me.

That is naturally one of the issues of a mass produced modular system. I had the same issue when I had my Shires. I remember a buddy telling me loosening the threads to take on and off the tuning slide was encouraged by the shires staff when he bought his horn years ago. I think this masks a problem.

Taking out some of the unnecessary tension would probably make it play better. If it’s causing a substantial mechanical issue, then things are pretty far out IMO.

This is one of the reasons I find problems with trying a modular instrument and ordering the “same” instrument to be made in 6-18 months. Or even just buying the parts. The ways things can go sideways with modular set ups just seems so much higher than a fixed horn. Especially when you’re pressured to make lots of horns quickly and QC isn’t absolutely top notch.

First things first, check that each of the tuning slide inners moves well in its' outer tube. They should be snug but move freely. If they do not, then that must be addressed before going any further.

[quote="Lhbone"]I visited the Shires factory in the early 2010s and noticed that every time the worker needed to change out the bell/valve section, he had to keep the assembly screws loose to get the tuning slide to move freely. [/quote]

Yes, they do this at the factory when putting bell sections together - loosely mount the valve section onto the bell, put the tuning slide on, then tighten down the valve section nuts. Theoretically, when the valve section is attached to the bell, the tuning slide should be able to be taken on and off with no issue.

[quote="Lhbone"]I cannot conceive how an assembly with that tight of a tolerance is truly "tension free", does this impact tension and resonance of the instrument? When screwing the assembly screws tight, sometimes they tighten until they reaching a stopping point (normal I'm assuming) and others the torsion feels like something is being pulled towards it like when you screw two pieces of wood together (no way this is a tension free assembly in my thought process).[/quote]

With your bell section fully assembled and tuning slide all the way in, unscrew the valve section nuts. There should be no gap between the brass stud on the valve section and the threaded nickel post on the bell. If there is, then that is the "torsion feel" you described and is absolutely putting tension on the bell section.

If your student purchased their setup new from a Shires dealer and you feel there are functionality issues (difficult/impossible to use tuning slide) or fit issues with the components you should absolutely reach out to the dealer it was purchased from, or to Shires directly.

Actually, that's not how we do it anymore. The bell and valve section are fully seated and tightened before I attempt to put a tuning slide on. We've worked pretty intensely over the past couple years to remove the "ping" from tuning slides, and it's becoming much more of a rarity than it once was. Not to say it doesn't happen occasionally, but we are making an effort for that not to be the norm. It used to be a feature of Shires horns that I never liked. The biggest culprit used to be small bores, and we've pretty much eliminated it as an issue now. To your credit, it was never really an issue with Rejano's, a particularly well designed and spaced valve section.

I don't like to comment on threads about other makers (except Bach. They need to be beaten around the head!!) But I've said all of this before on this page, so here we go again

"Interchangeable" is Difficult!! Part of the issue is, what is your definition of "interchangeable"? My definition is very different to most peoples, which is why I do not sell my stuff as being interchangeable, unless I have the parts that will live together to ensure they fit correctly. Getting 2 tuning slides "exactly" the same width (down to .001") and parallel is "really" not easy!!

Assembly jigs are a start, but they are absolutely not infallible. You just cannot avoid the fact that heating metal makes that metal change dimension. To complicate things, the solder that holds parts together hardens before the metal part has returned to its original dimensional state. If the assembly tech does not know about that fact, and take it into account, then the parts are NOT going to be accurate. Assembly jigs can also be affected by heat, which potentially throws off their accuracy.

Some makers make their product "interchangeable" by opening up tolerance in specific places to allow extra wiggle room. This "may" allow a part made this year to "fit" with a part made last week or last year or 5 years ago, but it ignores the fact that those looser tolerances bring their own problems.

If you want your interchangeable horn to fit accurately, even if it is new from the factory, some degree of adjustment by a good tech may be required. It may just be a quick heat and adjust of the threaded studs on the bell, hopefully. But as I say, what is the definition of "correct fit"? Is 10 thou misalignment okay? 5 thou? Neither of those are okay, in my opinion.

All of those issues are equally applicable to hard soldered bell horns, too, btw. Just because the bell is not detachable, does not mean it was built without stress if the tech is not aware of what's going on.

I've never heard of tuning slides having "ping" before now...

MAtt, the "ping" is the sound the tubes make when pulled off of a misaligned bell section.

[quote="JKBone85"]Actually, that's not how we do it anymore. The bell and valve section are fully seated and tightened before I attempt to put a tuning slide on. We've worked pretty intensely over the past couple years to remove the "ping" from tuning slides, and it's becoming much more of a rarity than it once was. Not to say it doesn't happen occasionally, but we are making an effort for that not to be the norm. It used to be a feature of Shires horns that I never liked. The biggest culprit used to be small bores, and we've pretty much eliminated it as an issue now. To your credit, it was never really an issue with Rejano's, a particularly well designed and spaced valve section.[/quote]

Good to hear that the Rejano has worked out well. It's a nice looking valve section.

I brought alignment issues up the chain of command several times while working there years ago, and was told that it was acceptable. It's a great step forward for the company that some of those problems are finally being addressed.

I worked at Shires too, though in sales rather than on the manufacturing floor. I can't speak from the position of somebody who actually builds instruments hands-on but, in short, what Matthew said.

It took about one and a half times of trying to insert a tuning slide in front of a customer and getting it jammed for me to do my best to always follow two procedures:

1. make sure everything is lubricated, and

2. insert the tuning slide while the nuts are loose and then tighten the rest of the way after the tuning slide is in and moving.

So...that said, I want to make a couple of other comments.

We brass players have it incredibly easy from the standpoint of the economics of our instruments. Even for me to have my instrument built by hand and serviced directly by Steve Shires, one of the most significant innovators in brass instrument design in history, cost me a fraction of the price of a high-quality string instrument <I>bow</I>, let alone the instrument. My wife's one flute and one piccolo (she has no backups) are worth more than my 5 trombones combined.

I can drive three hours to see Steve. If I still played Shires I could be there in an hour for any service I need. Trombonists in the midwest have their choice of Matthew above, O'Malley Brass, or Edwards/Getzen, for comparable levels of care, attention to detail, and follow-up service. I owned a Greenhoe bass trombone, and the attention to manufacturing detail of that instrument was off the charts; Schilke is an extremely high quality operation, and I imagine they take care of their customers. Yamaha builds precision instruments and takes incredibly good care of at least their trumpet artists.

Woodwind and string players have very close relationships with their repair/maintenance technicians, and they usually won't let anybody else touch their instruments. For many of them, that means flying across the country for repair or modification work. And for some - clarinetists for example, who often replace their instruments every few years - that means buying the best instrument available and having their tech go over it to fine-tune and optimize it. And then see it again every six months to a year to keep it in optimal condition.

There are incredibly high-quality brass technicians around the United States. Off the top of my head:

- Brad Close and Don Sawday and others in California

- Benn Hanson in Seattle

- Scott Sweeney in I think North Carolina

- James Baker in Birmingham

- Merlin Grady in Indiana

- Lou Anderson in Boston

- Matt Walters (for tuba) in New Jersey at Dillon's

- Todd Clontz near Baltimore

- Eric Edwards and Eric Swanson (did I hear he retired?) in Texas

There are many others I either don't know or don't remember at this very moment, but my point is that any serious player should have a relationship with a tech they trust, and any instrument they buy and play regularly should get regular attention from that tech. If you want to play a Shires, have your tech go over it to make it fit together perfectly. Same for an Edwards, a Bach, a Rath, a vintage Conn, a Courtois...whatever.

[quote="Lhbone"]I visited the Shires factory in the early 2010s and noticed that every time the worker needed to change out the bell/valve section, he had to keep the assembly screws loose to get the tuning slide to move freely. I also have a student who recently bought a Shires setup from an area dealer, and his tuning slide basically doesn't move at all when the screws are tight and barely move when the screws are loose. We've tried every weight/thickness of tuning slide grease with no luck. I have a medium bore shires that moves fine except for the last 1/2 inch until it's in fully closed position, then I really have to kind of force it. By contrast, my custom assembled bell section (work done by an expert local tech) and a Getzen/Edwards I have move completely freely with no issue, which leads me to the following questions:

-Has anyone else noticed an issue with their Shires setup or when interchanging parts? It seems like the tight tolerance may be worse with post-Eastman production but still occurred pre-Eastman

-Is there a benefit/drawback to having such tight tolerances in the tuning slide?

-I cannot conceive how an assembly with that tight of a tolerance is truly "tension free", does this impact tension and resonance of the instrument? When screwing the assembly screws tight, sometimes they tighten until they reaching a stopping point (normal I'm assuming) and others the torsion feels like something is being pulled towards it like when you screw two pieces of wood together (no way this is a tension free assembly in my thought process).[/quote]

Did your student get a custom or Q?

[quote="Thrawn22"]<QUOTE author="Lhbone" post_id="292281" time="1768085376" user_id="7544">
I visited the Shires factory in the early 2010s and noticed that every time the worker needed to change out the bell/valve section, he had to keep the assembly screws loose to get the tuning slide to move freely. I also have a student who recently bought a Shires setup from an area dealer, and his tuning slide basically doesn't move at all when the screws are tight and barely move when the screws are loose. We've tried every weight/thickness of tuning slide grease with no luck. I have a medium bore shires that moves fine except for the last 1/2 inch until it's in fully closed position, then I really have to kind of force it. By contrast, my custom assembled bell section (work done by an expert local tech) and a Getzen/Edwards I have move completely freely with no issue, which leads me to the following questions:

-Has anyone else noticed an issue with their Shires setup or when interchanging parts? It seems like the tight tolerance may be worse with post-Eastman production but still occurred pre-Eastman

-Is there a benefit/drawback to having such tight tolerances in the tuning slide?

-I cannot conceive how an assembly with that tight of a tolerance is truly "tension free", does this impact tension and resonance of the instrument? When screwing the assembly screws tight, sometimes they tighten until they reaching a stopping point (normal I'm assuming) and others the torsion feels like something is being pulled towards it like when you screw two pieces of wood together (no way this is a tension free assembly in my thought process).[/quote]

Did your student get a custom or Q?
</QUOTE>

Referring to custom parts only in my OG post. Funny enough, another student got a Q recently and the slides move like butter.

Did your student get a custom or Q?

[/quote]

Referring to custom parts only in my OG post. Funny enough, another student got a Q recently and the slides move like butter.

[/quote]

The QC department that handles Q's takes pride in their work.

Thanks all for your responses. I understand that interchangeable parts cannot be 100% consistent. The only other objection I have to this is this student bought a specific model horn that comes with a specific setup straight out of the shop (TBVNY Vintage New York). It seems like for these horns, there should be a level of QC for those parts to fit exactly straight out of the shop. It is possible that the parts got interchanged at the local dealer but not likely. To me, there's no excuse for this horn not being 100% tension free in its assembly.

Yes, we can reach out to Shires to do the work or bring it to a local tech. Either way, it's not fun to explain to a family that "hey, I know you dropped nearly 6K on a brand new trombone, but we need to send it away for warranty work for several weeks or bring it to a local tech and pay more money to get it in top condition!"

It's reality for mass manufacturing. My $45k Chevy let me down with a major transmission failure, luckily it was before the 3/36 warranty expired. It was down 2 weeks. Probably good to take an experienced musician along when buying a horn so it can be checked over.

[quote="walldaja"]It's reality for mass manufacturing. My $45k Chevy let me down with a major transmission failure, luckily it was before the 3/36 warranty expired. It was down 2 weeks. Probably good to take an experienced musician along when buying a horn so it can be checked over.[/quote]

Not really the best comparison. Shires is a handcrafted small scale production that supposedly offers "quality without compromise". Again, custom horn, not Chinese Q series. Not a mass assembly facility like auto manufacturers. This was an oversight in their quality control department.

You're absolutely right, Lhbone. I have the same issue with my Shires custom series bass - I have to finesse the tuning slide to make it fit. It plays very well, thankfully. Come to think of it, I've had the same issue with one or two Edwards basses in the past (modular horns though).