Hello, I am asking a quite specific question: I am located in Germany and I am looking regularly on the used market for tenor trombones (without f-attachment). What I am seeing are the usual american/foreign brands like King, Bach, Rath, Edwards, Yamaha, etc. On the other hand, I am seeing a ton of older instruments that have a slightly different build/construction method. These are also tenor trombones, but often larger bells and in the ads these are referred to as "german build". Can anyone explain what is meant by this?

I read in another forum (a longer time ago), that there was a specific german build of trombones, but with the upcoming popularity of american music and the US-soldiers the "american build" took over the market and the consumers requested only the US-build on trombones, also from the domestic producers. Does anyone have insight in this and can elaborate a little? Thank you very much.

not too familiar with traditional german horns having only touched 1 before but from what i have gathered browsing the web, traditional german style trombones have a different sound profile compared to a american style horn.

[quote="MichaelBavarian"]Hello, I am asking a quite specific question: I am located in Germany and I am looking regularly on the used market for tenor trombones (without f-attachment). What I am seeing are the usual american/foreign brands like King, Bach, Rath, Edwards, Yamaha, etc. On the other hand, I am seeing a ton of older instruments that have a slightly different build/construction method. These are also tenor trombones, but often larger bells and in the ads these are referred to as "german build". Can anyone explain what is meant by this?

I read in another forum (a longer time ago), that there was a specific german build of trombones, but with the upcoming popularity of american music and the US-soldiers the "american build" took over the market and the consumers requested only the US-build on trombones, also from the domestic producers. Does anyone have insight in this and can elaborate a little? Thank you very much.[/quote]

They typically have somewhat to much smaller bore, but larger bells (9" bells common even on very narrow bore instruments) Often dual bore. Often no tuning slide, or a J-bend, allowing for earlier and steeper conicity in the bell section. Often friction fit. Often unplated inner tubes. The bore sizes are not standardized.

They play very different. Very warm and rich in the soft dynamics, gets really dull if you try to just push as much air as you would on an American trombone to play loud. Instead they want you to brighten up the sound instead of going for sheer volume. Then they get really brilliant. They're more sensitive to a variety of articulations. They're accordingly also less forgiving if your articulation is not exactly what you intended, or if the air is not focused exactly right for the note and sound you intended, or if you're not exactly on pitch...

In my opinion they're very fun and rewarding to play, but they take effort. And there's not many places or occasions where one can play them (unless you play them at such a high level that you're able to mold the sound into blending with American style instrument, which not many people can do).

Many German-made instruments are hybrids of those traditional German designs and of modern American-style instruments.

Doug Yeo negotiated a purchase of a set of older Kruspe trombones for the Boston Symphony about 15 or 20 years ago. I got to perform on the bass trombone a little bit and enjoyed it - it was a little broader sounding than my Conn 70H but a similar enough blow in relation to bigger modern basses that I was able to get pretty comfortable. My friends who played the alto liked it very much, especially those who enjoy modern German altos like Theins.

There were two tenors and nobody liked them as far as I can remember. Very, very different from American symphonic tenors or even smaller American style trombones. Hard to find the center of the pitch, hard to find the tuning of the partials.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]They typically have somewhat to much smaller bore, but larger bells (9" bells common even on very narrow bore instruments) Often dual bore. Often no tuning slide, or a J-bend, allowing for earlier and steeper conicity in the bell section. Often friction fit. Often unplated inner tubes. The bore sizes are not standardized.[/quote]
It's far from universal, but many have a kranz (i.e., a nickel silver reinforcing band) on the bell. The nicer ones often have reinforcing plates and ornamental snakes on the slide crook and back crook.

Compared to the typical American-style trombone (say, a Bach 42), the slide on a German-style trombone is longer (and the bell section shorter to compensate).

I think there are some orchestras (primarily but not exclusively in Germany) that use them when appropriate for the repertoire.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Doug Yeo negotiated a purchase of a set of older Kruspe trombones for the Boston Symphony about 15 or 20 years ago. I got to perform on the bass trombone a little bit and enjoyed it - it was a little broader sounding than my Conn 70H but a similar enough blow in relation to bigger modern basses that I was able to get pretty comfortable. My friends who played the alto liked it very much, especially those who enjoy modern German altos like Theins.

There were two tenors and nobody liked them as far as I can remember. Very, very different from American symphonic tenors or even smaller American style trombones. Hard to find the center of the pitch, hard to find the tuning of the partials.[/quote]

That aligns with my own experience and what I hear from colleagues.

The gap in playing differences between American and German instruments seems to be narrower for basses – not sure if it's due to the instrument characteristics being somewhat closer, or the average playing technique for bass being more susceptible to work on both, or bass trombonists being more used to adapting to bigger differences between instruments (there being arguably quite a bit more variability in design and playing feels between different American bass trombone models than among large tenors), or a mix of all that. One thing is that I think people are maybe more used to have to brighten up more/change the sound colour at louder dynamics on bass than on tenor (where you can play louder by mostly just pushing more air). So the required adjustment maybe feels less foreign.

Tenors feel very different, and in my experience you just can't get satisfactory results without really adapting your approach and technique, and usually also using a very different mouthpiece. If you use your usual mouthpiece and play very open, they just feel completely unfocused, the tuning is all over the place and the sound is dull and stuffy with no projection. They're just not very easy to play, it can be frustrating. When I have to play my German tenor is when I need to prepare in advance the most. I really have to work on playing a lot more "closed", really using the tongue arch/vowel shapes a lot more than on any other instrument to get the right sound, and this both for different registers and different dynamics (which makes it harder yet), and creating my own resistance to push against because the instrument gives me none. It really takes time to dial in, and it's difficult to just pick one up and try or play very occasionally and have a good experience. But if you have a good instrument and really spend time dialing your playing in, at some point the switch flips and it becomes an absolute joy to play and a glorious sound. I have to go through that process every time I play it because it's so seldom. Whereas with the bass I can dial in a lot faster, even though the playing characteristics and the adjustments I need to make in my playing are in the same overall direction.

All the traditional-style German altos I've tried were massively different from modern/American-style altos, but in a very good way. And especially the older, very small altos. They generally don't take well to being treated like a smaller tenor, but it's usually very quickly evident to the player how they want to be played, and fairly easy to dial in. As soon as you adopt a more delicate approach, they just sing. And since virtually all repertoire we might use alto on benefits from a lighter, gentler, more complex sound, it's a perfect fit.

___

A recent-ish experience that also goes in that direction :

About 18 months ago I got to try a set of original 1850s Penzel alto, tenor and bass. The tenor was the hardest to play and least impressive in the moment, although I'm pretty sure if I had the right mouthpiece, and could play that horn for some days or weeks, I would have found it eventually very good. But the other two were just mind-blowing.

The F bass had all the nice things about a bass sackbut especially when playing soft...flexibility to change the sound colour, sensitivity to different articulations, ability to really sing...but also a quasi-modern bore size (about .540) and a 9.5+ inch bell and the ability to get a big hefty orchestral sound.

The alto was maybe the best. I hadn't touched any kind of alto trombone in at least a couple years, plus I had to just use a random mouthpiece that was lying around and was probably not even a very good fit for the horn, or to me. And yet this was still instantly the easiest and most pleasant experience playing an alto trombone I've ever had. The horn wanted almost no air, and just sang effortlessly. I played the Schumann 3 choral on it, cold, in one breath and without the slightest effort (and that excerpt in particular, or generally being secure up high, have never been a strength for me). Combined with my past experiences trying other German horns, it convinced me that the German makers really really nailed it with the alto designs.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]

About 18 months ago I got to try a set of original 1850s Penzel alto, tenor and bass. The tenor was the hardest to play and least impressive in the moment, although I'm pretty sure if I had the right mouthpiece, and could play that horn for some days or weeks, I would have found it eventually very good. But the other two were just mind-blowing.

The F bass had all the nice things about a bass sackbut especially when playing soft...flexibility to change the sound colour, sensitivity to different articulations, ability to really sing...but also a quasi-modern bore size (about .540) and a 9.5+ inch bell and the ability to get a big hefty orchestral sound.

The alto was maybe the best. I hadn't touched any kind of alto trombone in at least a couple years, plus I had to just use a random mouthpiece that was lying around and was probably not even a very good fit for the horn, or to me. And yet this was still instantly the easiest and most pleasant experience playing an alto trombone I've ever had. The horn wanted almost no air, and just sang effortlessly. I played the Schumann 3 choral on it, cold, in one breath and without the slightest effort (and that excerpt in particular, or generally being secure up high, have never been a strength for me). Combined with my past experiences trying other German horns, it convinced me that the German makers really really nailed it with the alto designs.[/quote]

Hi Max

I had a different opinion on the tenor! But the alto was ... well maybe the best alto I've ever played... period. Just extraordinary. I did like the tenor too. Worth a second look? Are the Penzels still in the shop?

[quote="Retrobone"]

Hi Max

I had a different opinion on the tenor! But the alto was ... well maybe the best alto I've ever played... period. Just extraordinary. I did like the tenor too. Worth a second look?[/quote]

Hi Tim!

Don't get me wrong, I thought the tenor was nice, just not nearly as mindblowing as the other two, which were just so extraordinary. And I just couldn't find a mouthpiece in the shop that worked well in it (it was a very spontaneous and last-minute visit when we heard that those instruments were there; I didn't have any suitable mouthpiece with me, and the few I could find in the shop that seemed like they might have been remotely decent just didn't fit in the receiver. I think we had to settle for a Wick Heritage 4AL or something like that, which was completely inadequate). It felt very similar to my Pollter (which has exactly the same bore and bell size – and is really excellent) when I use not quite the right mouthpiece with it.

That alto was really something else. It kind of made me want to play alto trombone again (or at least, if I could have an instrument that good). I was screaming internally that I wished Egger (or someone!) had copied this set, instead of much later instruments (although Egger's Heckel alto copy is also stellar, and goes generally in the same direction). The bass also......nobody makes something like that.

[quote="Retrobone"]Are the Penzels still in the shop?[/quote]

No, those instruments are long gone. I played them in June 2024 on that spontaneous visit, and then spent a couple hours taking measurements a week later (had very limited time and really wanted to get as many measurements of the bass as possible). They had finished restoring them and the instruments were just sitting there until the owner could pick them up. Sadly the (new?) owner reportedly wants to remain anonymous, so I don't know if we'll ever see these instruments again. I hope someday someone who knows their identity manages to convince them to grant access to scholars for a couple days so that they can be studied more thoroughly, completely measured and 3D-scanned, so that they are documented and preserved for posterity in at least some form, and so that someone can perhaps copy them. Altos and long basses from that time, especially, are such rarities...