Who has used Willson 310/311 trombone
- Tubaaiyue
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Jan 27, 2024
Has anyone played the Willson 311 Trombone before? What does it look like when played? Is his voice more German or American? Who is more flexible when playing the 311 or 88H?
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
The Willson band instrument company is well known for their world-class euphoniums and their “Swiss Craftsmanship”. Having played their 311, 411, and (bass) 511 trombones for nearly thirty years, I can thoroughly recommend all of these. Willson trombones seem to have a “telepathic” quality: they “know” ahead of time the next note you intend to play, and it just “floats out” with ease. Having also played the Conn 88H and Bach 42B for many years, I can say that the (similar bore) Willson 411 is closer, in many ways, to the Bach. Of course, the 311 is of smaller bore, but sounds very much like the 411: a little “lighter” in character, but with strong carrying power. The compact Rotax valves are well-known to be industry leaders for conventional rotaries. The “feel” of the trigger and linkage is fast and reliable. [The advanced CAIDEX valves are available (no extra cost) options for the 411 and 511, but not (yet) for the 311.] Willson chromium-plated inner slides are very fast. [Unfortunately, the titanium-nitride coated inner slides are no longer offered (because of cost). But these were unbelievably fast!] Willson slides are bolted together rather than using the more conventional soldering, thereby avoiding any assembly stresses. The press-button slide-lock is reliable and much more convenient than standard screw locks. Lacquer is long lasting. [See picture of a thirty-five-year old 311—customized to a matched-bore G attachment, with a prototype 13.3 mm CAIDEX valve].
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- Tubaaiyue
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Jan 27, 2024
[quote="Sesquitone"]The Willson band instrument company is well known for their world-class euphoniums and their “Swiss Craftsmanship”. Having played their 311, 411, and (bass) 511 trombones for nearly thirty years, I can thoroughly recommend all of these. Willson trombones seem to have a “telepathic” quality: they “know” ahead of time the next note you intend to play, and it just “floats out” with ease. Having also played the Conn 88H and Bach 42B for many years, I can say that the (similar bore) Willson 411 is closer, in many ways, to the Bach. Of course, the 311 is of smaller bore, but sounds very much like the 411: a little “lighter” in character, but with strong carrying power. The compact Rotax valves are well-known to be industry leaders for conventional rotaries. The “feel” of the trigger and linkage is fast and reliable. [The advanced CAIDEX valves are available (no extra cost) options for the 411 and 511, but not (yet) for the 311.] Willson chromium-plated inner slides are very fast. [Unfortunately, the titanium-nitride coated inner slides are no longer offered (because of cost). But these were unbelievably fast!] Willson slides are bolted together rather than using the more conventional soldering, thereby avoiding any assembly stresses. The press-button slide-lock is reliable and much more convenient than standard screw locks. Lacquer is long lasting. [See picture of a thirty-five-year old 311—customized to a matched-bore G attachment, with a prototype 13.3 mm CAIDEX valve].
.[/quote]
Thank you！If we approach Bach, Wilson trombone's reaction will be slower than Conn 88, right? I used to blow 42 and 88H, and I felt that 88H was more effortless to blow
.[/quote]
Thank you！If we approach Bach, Wilson trombone's reaction will be slower than Conn 88, right? I used to blow 42 and 88H, and I felt that 88H was more effortless to blow
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="Tubaaiyue"]Thank you！If we approach Bach, Wilson trombone's reaction will be slower than Conn 88, right? I used to blow 42 and 88H, and I felt that 88H was more effortless to blow[/quote]
No, not at all. I found the Willson trombones to be more "effortless" than both Bach and Conn. Their "telepathic" property—meaning that they "know" what you intend to play before you play it—is the most "effortless" aspect of any instrument. Very "fast reaction". Slotting is very precise, so the notes just "tumble" out, as needed. But, of course, that's always a combination of instrument and player.
No, not at all. I found the Willson trombones to be more "effortless" than both Bach and Conn. Their "telepathic" property—meaning that they "know" what you intend to play before you play it—is the most "effortless" aspect of any instrument. Very "fast reaction". Slotting is very precise, so the notes just "tumble" out, as needed. But, of course, that's always a combination of instrument and player.
- Tubaaiyue
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Jan 27, 2024
[quote="Sesquitone"]<QUOTE author="Tubaaiyue" post_id="292752" time="1768690399" user_id="17581">
Thank you！If we approach Bach, Wilson trombone's reaction will be slower than Conn 88, right? I used to blow 42 and 88H, and I felt that 88H was more effortless to blow[/quote]
No, not at all. I found the Willson trombones to be more "effortless" than both Bach and Conn. Their "telepathic" property—meaning that they "know" what you intend to play before you play it—is the most "effortless" aspect of any instrument. Very "fast reaction". Slotting is very precise, so the notes just "tumble" out, as needed. But, of course, that's always a combination of instrument and player.
</QUOTE>
Thank you Sesquitone
Thank you！If we approach Bach, Wilson trombone's reaction will be slower than Conn 88, right? I used to blow 42 and 88H, and I felt that 88H was more effortless to blow[/quote]
No, not at all. I found the Willson trombones to be more "effortless" than both Bach and Conn. Their "telepathic" property—meaning that they "know" what you intend to play before you play it—is the most "effortless" aspect of any instrument. Very "fast reaction". Slotting is very precise, so the notes just "tumble" out, as needed. But, of course, that's always a combination of instrument and player.
</QUOTE>
Thank you Sesquitone
- tkelley216
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Oct 25, 2021
Willson trombones seem to be rare (at least in the states). I once found and tried a 300TA (.525 bore, no trigger, this one was silver plated for a military band). It played fine, nothing special. Sound and response felt a little more "euphonium like" to me in that it was very easy to play with a warm sound, but not a ton of core or center. The slide lock button seemed cool the first time I tried it, but felt kind of gimmicky and annoying the more I used it. Build quality was excellent.
I'm surprised they still make trombones after being bought by Eastman. Figure they would try to favor shires horns instead but I guess Willson trombones must have some following or they just build on request. For what it's worth, my euphonium playing friends have not been impressed with Willson euphoniums made in the last few years since the Eastman acquisition.
I'm surprised they still make trombones after being bought by Eastman. Figure they would try to favor shires horns instead but I guess Willson trombones must have some following or they just build on request. For what it's worth, my euphonium playing friends have not been impressed with Willson euphoniums made in the last few years since the Eastman acquisition.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
I tried a 411 at a trade show about thirty years ago.
Fine Swiss craftsmanship was an immediate first impression. The instrument was extremely well balanced and lightweight. The bell was thin but strong, which is good for projection. Best slide and best valve I had used up to that time.
I also had played on a Bach 42B for several years and could never get a powerful sound out of it. It just kind of sucked the life out of me. I think the Willson would pretty much do whatever you wanted it to. Unfortunately, the dollar was quite weak against European currencies at the time and the instrument was completely cost prohibitive.
Fine Swiss craftsmanship was an immediate first impression. The instrument was extremely well balanced and lightweight. The bell was thin but strong, which is good for projection. Best slide and best valve I had used up to that time.
I also had played on a Bach 42B for several years and could never get a powerful sound out of it. It just kind of sucked the life out of me. I think the Willson would pretty much do whatever you wanted it to. Unfortunately, the dollar was quite weak against European currencies at the time and the instrument was completely cost prohibitive.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Sesquitone"]<QUOTE author="Tubaaiyue" post_id="292752" time="1768690399" user_id="17581">
Thank you！If we approach Bach, Wilson trombone's reaction will be slower than Conn 88, right? I used to blow 42 and 88H, and I felt that 88H was more effortless to blow[/quote]
No, not at all. I found the Willson trombones to be more "effortless" than both Bach and Conn. Their "telepathic" property—meaning that they "know" what you intend to play before you play it—is the most "effortless" aspect of any instrument. Very "fast reaction". Slotting is very precise, so the notes just "tumble" out, as needed. But, of course, that's always a combination of instrument and player.
</QUOTE>
<ATTACHMENT filename="giphy (2).gif" index="0">[attachment=0]giphy (2).gif</ATTACHMENT>
Thank you！If we approach Bach, Wilson trombone's reaction will be slower than Conn 88, right? I used to blow 42 and 88H, and I felt that 88H was more effortless to blow[/quote]
No, not at all. I found the Willson trombones to be more "effortless" than both Bach and Conn. Their "telepathic" property—meaning that they "know" what you intend to play before you play it—is the most "effortless" aspect of any instrument. Very "fast reaction". Slotting is very precise, so the notes just "tumble" out, as needed. But, of course, that's always a combination of instrument and player.
</QUOTE>
<ATTACHMENT filename="giphy (2).gif" index="0">
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tkelley216"]Willson trombones seem to be rare (at least in the states).[/quote]
They are rare even here in Switzerland. They never really found their market I think. I actually can't even remember when I saw one last. And I also don't think I've ever played one.
They are rare even here in Switzerland. They never really found their market I think. I actually can't even remember when I saw one last. And I also don't think I've ever played one.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I enjoy my Willsons a lot. Easy to play in all registers, with a dense, colorful sound. The 311 is probably my favorite. I've gigged and recorded on it plenty, and I'd put it up against most other .525s out there.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="Finetales"]I enjoy my Willsons a lot. Easy to play in all registers, with a dense, colorful sound. The 311 is probably my favorite. I've gigged and recorded on it plenty, and I'd put it up against most other .525s out there.[/quote]
Do you have pictures of the other Willson trombones that you would like to share here? And how would you explain, in physical terms, the so-called "telepathic" quality (of any instrument)?
Do you have pictures of the other Willson trombones that you would like to share here? And how would you explain, in physical terms, the so-called "telepathic" quality (of any instrument)?
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
[quote="Sesquitone"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="292972" time="1769035285" user_id="136">
I enjoy my Willsons a lot. Easy to play in all registers, with a dense, colorful sound. The 311 is probably my favorite. I've gigged and recorded on it plenty, and I'd put it up against most other .525s out there.[/quote]
Do you have pictures of the other Willson trombones that you would like to share here? And how would you explain, in physical terms, the so-called "telepathic" quality (of any instrument)?
</QUOTE>
I'd love to see some close up photos of the handslide crossbraces - the construction looks interesting from the couple of pictures I could find on the Wìllson website
I enjoy my Willsons a lot. Easy to play in all registers, with a dense, colorful sound. The 311 is probably my favorite. I've gigged and recorded on it plenty, and I'd put it up against most other .525s out there.[/quote]
Do you have pictures of the other Willson trombones that you would like to share here? And how would you explain, in physical terms, the so-called "telepathic" quality (of any instrument)?
</QUOTE>
I'd love to see some close up photos of the handslide crossbraces - the construction looks interesting from the couple of pictures I could find on the Wìllson website
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="Blabberbucket"]I'd love to see some close up photos of the handslide crossbraces - the construction looks interesting from the couple of pictures I could find on the Wìllson website[/quote]
There are three bolted joints on the Willson hand-slides. In the blown-up picture (from the Willson website), you can see one near the mouthpiece receiver and one at the lower end of the cross-brace. There's another (just out of sight) underneath the other slide tube.
In assembly, the bolts are partially tightened and the inner tubes are inserted into the outer slide. The cross-brace is adjusted to give perfect alignment of inner and outer tubing at the open end of the outer slide—then its bolt-joint is tightened completely. Then the other two bolts are tightened while the slide is still assembled—thus guaranteeing that there is no misalignment (such as lack of parallelism), as might occur with conventional soldering joints. I append a good Google-agent summary of some of the attributes of this innovative design.
Everything can be disassembled, serviced, and reassembled, if necessary.
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There are three bolted joints on the Willson hand-slides. In the blown-up picture (from the Willson website), you can see one near the mouthpiece receiver and one at the lower end of the cross-brace. There's another (just out of sight) underneath the other slide tube.
In assembly, the bolts are partially tightened and the inner tubes are inserted into the outer slide. The cross-brace is adjusted to give perfect alignment of inner and outer tubing at the open end of the outer slide—then its bolt-joint is tightened completely. Then the other two bolts are tightened while the slide is still assembled—thus guaranteeing that there is no misalignment (such as lack of parallelism), as might occur with conventional soldering joints. I append a good Google-agent summary of some of the attributes of this innovative design.
Everything can be disassembled, serviced, and reassembled, if necessary.
.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
WIllson Trombones had those orange Titanium Nitride plated slide inners for a while, didn't they? I wonder if that system was originally partly developed to hold in slide tubes without solder, which would probably not adhere at all to the TN.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="harrisonreed"]giphy (2).gif[/quote]
All musical instruments have a "telepathic" quality—to different degrees. It's all a matter of the human "Libet Time": the time delay between what's happening in the "real world" (including subconscious things going on inside your brain) and your conscious awareness of such. For example, on a trombone, when you initiate a note (in the time domain of the "real world"), you're not aware of the sound of that note until typically 500 ms later. The establishment of the standing wave inside the tubing can take up to between "a few" to "many" hundredths of a second. And the feedback to your embouchure to establish a "good tone" and the desired pitch about the same again. So, when you're aware of that sound—up to half-a second later—it may (or may not) be exactly as you (first subconsciously, and now consciously) intended. The closer to what you intended, the "more" the instrument appears to "know" what you want to play—before you're aware of playing it! So instruments with shorter standing-wave-establishment times and quicker embouchure-synchronisation—usually related to stronger peaks in the frequency spectrum—will appear to be "more telepathic".
All musical instruments have a "telepathic" quality—to different degrees. It's all a matter of the human "Libet Time": the time delay between what's happening in the "real world" (including subconscious things going on inside your brain) and your conscious awareness of such. For example, on a trombone, when you initiate a note (in the time domain of the "real world"), you're not aware of the sound of that note until typically 500 ms later. The establishment of the standing wave inside the tubing can take up to between "a few" to "many" hundredths of a second. And the feedback to your embouchure to establish a "good tone" and the desired pitch about the same again. So, when you're aware of that sound—up to half-a second later—it may (or may not) be exactly as you (first subconsciously, and now consciously) intended. The closer to what you intended, the "more" the instrument appears to "know" what you want to play—before you're aware of playing it! So instruments with shorter standing-wave-establishment times and quicker embouchure-synchronisation—usually related to stronger peaks in the frequency spectrum—will appear to be "more telepathic".
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="tbonesullivan"]WIllson Trombones had those orange Titanium Nitride plated slide inners for a while, didn't they? I wonder if that system was originally partly developed to hold in slide tubes without solder, which would probably not adhere at all to the TiN.[/quote]
No. Those beautiful "gold" TiN coatings (applied by an expensive vapour-deposition process) were because that coating (not "plating") is an extremely <I>hard</I> ceramic compound—considerably more so than standard chromium plating. [That's why it's often used on drill bits and other machine tools.] Combined with the nickel-silver or other (relatively soft) copper-based alloys of the outer slide, the coefficient of friction (even when dry) is considerably reduced. With a little water (held in place by some appropriate slurry), the TiN slides are amazingly fast. It's too bad that they're not offered as (extra-cost) options. Willson inner slides are currently only offered with chrome plating—they're still bolted together as the default.
No. Those beautiful "gold" TiN coatings (applied by an expensive vapour-deposition process) were because that coating (not "plating") is an extremely <I>hard</I> ceramic compound—considerably more so than standard chromium plating. [That's why it's often used on drill bits and other machine tools.] Combined with the nickel-silver or other (relatively soft) copper-based alloys of the outer slide, the coefficient of friction (even when dry) is considerably reduced. With a little water (held in place by some appropriate slurry), the TiN slides are amazingly fast. It's too bad that they're not offered as (extra-cost) options. Willson inner slides are currently only offered with chrome plating—they're still bolted together as the default.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Sesquitone"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="292967" time="1769028569" user_id="3642">
giphy (2).gif[/quote]
All musical instruments have a "telepathic" quality—to different degrees. It's all a matter of the human "Libet Time": the time delay between what's happening in the "real world"...
</QUOTE>
I was being facetious because I know you didn't actually *really* mean that the horn is telepathic. But since you are doubling down... I'll play along with a further attempt at humor!
You raise an iteresting argument, but I would argue that the effect is more due to hours and hours of practice. If you practice playing a note 10 times and it doesn't speak properly, it is chipped or reliable sharp or flat, when you start to play it correctly it isn't that the trombone is some conscious entity in the future telepathically guessing what you will play and then magically altering the horn so that it plays properly for you. Instead it's that your mind and body have built up the connections to play that note reliable *in spite of* the 500ms (that does seem long, but we'll assume it's correct) delay between reality and your consciousness. The delay between reality and your perception of it does not mean that whatever comes out the bell is from the realm of chaos or random chance. Your body acts on a conscious choice. Something happens in "reality". You perceive the effects of that after it's actually happened. The conscious choice you make and your physical performance of that choice is informed by what has happened repeatedly in the past.
For anyone who doesn't know what Sesquitone is referring to, it's a really fascinating subject. I think this is the right video:
<YOUTUBE id="wo_e0EvEZn8">[media]https://youtu.be/wo_e0EvEZn8?si=ZSKUucSY5cXch5uo</YOUTUBE>
giphy (2).gif[/quote]
All musical instruments have a "telepathic" quality—to different degrees. It's all a matter of the human "Libet Time": the time delay between what's happening in the "real world"...
</QUOTE>
I was being facetious because I know you didn't actually *really* mean that the horn is telepathic. But since you are doubling down... I'll play along with a further attempt at humor!
You raise an iteresting argument, but I would argue that the effect is more due to hours and hours of practice. If you practice playing a note 10 times and it doesn't speak properly, it is chipped or reliable sharp or flat, when you start to play it correctly it isn't that the trombone is some conscious entity in the future telepathically guessing what you will play and then magically altering the horn so that it plays properly for you. Instead it's that your mind and body have built up the connections to play that note reliable *in spite of* the 500ms (that does seem long, but we'll assume it's correct) delay between reality and your consciousness. The delay between reality and your perception of it does not mean that whatever comes out the bell is from the realm of chaos or random chance. Your body acts on a conscious choice. Something happens in "reality". You perceive the effects of that after it's actually happened. The conscious choice you make and your physical performance of that choice is informed by what has happened repeatedly in the past.
For anyone who doesn't know what Sesquitone is referring to, it's a really fascinating subject. I think this is the right video:
<YOUTUBE id="wo_e0EvEZn8">
- jjenkins
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
Here are a few close-up shots of Willson's bass trombone modular slide and innovative slide latch, Titanium Nitride coating on the slide, and Rotax valve section, borrowed from the Internet.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="jjenkins"]Here are a few close-up shots of Willson's bass trombone modular slide and innovative slide latch, Titanium Nitride coating on the slide, and Rotax valve section, borrowed from the Internet.[/quote]
. . . And (no extra-cost) optional CAIDEX valves with individually adjustable stops and see-through end caps. [Borrowed off my custom Bb/G(thumb)+E(finger)=D(double) tenorbass.]
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. . . And (no extra-cost) optional CAIDEX valves with individually adjustable stops and see-through end caps. [Borrowed off my custom Bb/G(thumb)+E(finger)=D(double) tenorbass.]
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