Exercises For Stabilizing The Low Register
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
Hi,
I'm a very high placement player. I would say that I can slur pretty well in the low register. But when It comes to articulate the notes in the low register (especially F and E) sometimes it's pretty difficult. Especially when intervals above third is involved (Bb-F, C-F, etc). I think it is difficult when coming from above to directly put the lips in the pursed position which is needed for the low register. Do you have any recommendation for exercises which would help with this issue?
Thanks,
Andrei M.
I'm a very high placement player. I would say that I can slur pretty well in the low register. But when It comes to articulate the notes in the low register (especially F and E) sometimes it's pretty difficult. Especially when intervals above third is involved (Bb-F, C-F, etc). I think it is difficult when coming from above to directly put the lips in the pursed position which is needed for the low register. Do you have any recommendation for exercises which would help with this issue?
Thanks,
Andrei M.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The articulations in any register are affected by how your tongue must be positioned to sustain the note after the articulation. In the low register, often the player will have the tongue artificially low in the jaw in an attempt to darken the sound. This makes articulation, and by extension returning to that low tongue position, difficult. It is even more difficult if the jaw is artificially low fow the same reasons as above. You wind up articulating through the lips, which is not effective or efficient.
Based on what you're describing, you are having to change your embouchure placement in the cup when you change registers, even a small amount like a third or fifth.
This is a possible indication of a rim ID that is too small for your embouchure. High placement generally favors a larger rim ID.
Just out of curiosity, what is the rim ID of the mouthpiece you play?
Based on what you're describing, you are having to change your embouchure placement in the cup when you change registers, even a small amount like a third or fifth.
Especially when intervals above third is involved (Bb-F, C-F, etc). I think it is difficult when coming from above to directly put the lips in the pursed position which is needed for the low register.
This is a possible indication of a rim ID that is too small for your embouchure. High placement generally favors a larger rim ID.
Just out of curiosity, what is the rim ID of the mouthpiece you play?
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="harrisonreed"]Just out of curiosity, what is the rim ID of the mouthpiece you play?[/quote]
Dennis Wick 5BL
Dennis Wick 5BL
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="harrisonreed"]Based on what you're describing, you are having to change your embouchure placement in the cup when you change registers, even a small amount like a third or fifth.[/quote]
I think I'm pretty well without moving the jaw and with the position of the mouthpiece which I have. Only that sometimes I "forget" that pursing the lips would make it sound well. I'm thinking there are maybe some recommendation which would help to establish/stabilize this lips purse in a more efficient way.
I think I'm pretty well without moving the jaw and with the position of the mouthpiece which I have. Only that sometimes I "forget" that pursing the lips would make it sound well. I'm thinking there are maybe some recommendation which would help to establish/stabilize this lips purse in a more efficient way.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
In addition to what Harrison already mentioned, are you certain you're a Very High Placement type? It seems likely, based on what you describe, but those issues can happen with any embouchure type.
[quote="andrei"]I think it is difficult when coming from above to directly put the lips in the pursed position which is needed for the low register.[/quote]
What do you mean by "pursed position?" Pursing your lips to descend might not be what you really want to be doing.
[quote="andrei"]Do you have any recommendation for exercises which would help with this issue?[/quote]
Assuming a Very High Placement type, start in the upper end of your range and practice descending with compression. Keep the mouth corners engaged, try to limit any jaw drop, and use your embouchure motion/pivot to descend. Allow the sound to be softer and even thinner as you descend at first, work on volume and tone after you're able to descend without collapsing (or maybe "pursing") your embouchure formation.
It might help if we are able to watch you play and see what you're describing. Can you post video?
Dave
[quote="andrei"]I think it is difficult when coming from above to directly put the lips in the pursed position which is needed for the low register.[/quote]
What do you mean by "pursed position?" Pursing your lips to descend might not be what you really want to be doing.
[quote="andrei"]Do you have any recommendation for exercises which would help with this issue?[/quote]
Assuming a Very High Placement type, start in the upper end of your range and practice descending with compression. Keep the mouth corners engaged, try to limit any jaw drop, and use your embouchure motion/pivot to descend. Allow the sound to be softer and even thinner as you descend at first, work on volume and tone after you're able to descend without collapsing (or maybe "pursing") your embouchure formation.
It might help if we are able to watch you play and see what you're describing. Can you post video?
Dave
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Aside from potential considerations reg the playing mechanics (above) a very classic practice-based approach would be the Phil Teele long tone exercises or similar stuff. Yes, they are very basic and somewhat boring (=meditation?), but for myself - and pretty sure also for others - they are a very reliable way to stabilize the low register (and actually your overall range) and make you play it more similar to your other range.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
- Wayne
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Mar 22, 2025
"F" and "E" are the biggest problem?
What about the Bb?
Are your problems with articulation in those longer positions mostly?
A not so technical thing to look at is if in going out to 6th and 7th positions the horn angle gets changed. That can cause all sorts of fun.
What about the Bb?
Are your problems with articulation in those longer positions mostly?
A not so technical thing to look at is if in going out to 6th and 7th positions the horn angle gets changed. That can cause all sorts of fun.
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Wilktone"]In addition to what Harrison already mentioned, are you certain you're a Very High Placement type? It seems likely, based on what you describe, but those issues can happen with any embouchure type.[/quote]
Yes. I also had a diagnosing meeting with Doug Elliott. He diagnosed me as very high placement.
[quote="Wilktone"]
What do you mean by "pursed position?" Pursing your lips to descend might not be what you really want to be doing.[/quote]
Here I have a video.
<YOUTUBE id="WZyQkDK-JoA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZyQkDK-JoA</YOUTUBE>
[quote="Wilktone"]Assuming a Very High Placement type, start in the upper end of your range and practice descending with compression. Keep the mouth corners engaged, try to limit any jaw drop, and use your embouchure motion/pivot to descend. Allow the sound to be softer and even thinner as you descend at first, work on volume and tone after you're able to descend without collapsing (or maybe "pursing") your embouchure formation.
It might help if we are able to watch you play and see what you're describing. Can you post video?
Dave[/quote]
Here is a second video maybe it helps (trying to do a quick exercise as you described).
<YOUTUBE id="JZvJF7t2-88">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZvJF7t2-88</YOUTUBE>
Thanks,
Andrei M.
Yes. I also had a diagnosing meeting with Doug Elliott. He diagnosed me as very high placement.
[quote="Wilktone"]
What do you mean by "pursed position?" Pursing your lips to descend might not be what you really want to be doing.[/quote]
Here I have a video.
<YOUTUBE id="WZyQkDK-JoA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZyQkDK-JoA</YOUTUBE>
[quote="Wilktone"]Assuming a Very High Placement type, start in the upper end of your range and practice descending with compression. Keep the mouth corners engaged, try to limit any jaw drop, and use your embouchure motion/pivot to descend. Allow the sound to be softer and even thinner as you descend at first, work on volume and tone after you're able to descend without collapsing (or maybe "pursing") your embouchure formation.
It might help if we are able to watch you play and see what you're describing. Can you post video?
Dave[/quote]
Here is a second video maybe it helps (trying to do a quick exercise as you described).
<YOUTUBE id="JZvJF7t2-88">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZvJF7t2-88</YOUTUBE>
Thanks,
Andrei M.
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Wayne"]"F" and "E" are the biggest problem?
What about the Bb?
Are your problems with articulation in those longer positions mostly?
A not so technical thing to look at is if in going out to 6th and 7th positions the horn angle gets changed. That can cause all sorts of fun.[/quote]
There is no problem with BB to G or F#
What about the Bb?
Are your problems with articulation in those longer positions mostly?
A not so technical thing to look at is if in going out to 6th and 7th positions the horn angle gets changed. That can cause all sorts of fun.[/quote]
There is no problem with BB to G or F#
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
<URL url="">[url]</URL>Wow you sound very good in the upper register and mid register. I think your embouchure is just collapsing below the staff.
Again, a bit more room in a slightly wider mouthpiece might help you aim the air better for the notes below the staff, especially since you do seem to be very high placement, and you anchor on your top lip. With a wide mouthpiece, your top lip anchor could remain the same and the extra width would bring the throat slightly more in line with your lip aperture.
I'm seeing a bit of upturned corners but it seems to be working for most of your register. I am not one of the embouchure experts here, so I can't talk mechanics too much, but based on what I'm seeing, I would work on low lip slurs using the F attachment:
In Bb
:bassclef: :line2: :space0: :line2: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line4: ....
:bassclef: :space5: :line4: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line2: :space0: :line2: .....
Focusing on "glueing" the Bb and low F together. Then go down a half step:
In A, then in Ab:
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space3: ....
:bassclef: :line5: :space3: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: ....
And so on, as low as you can go until you would have to play a low B natural (stop there). The focus should be to aim the airstream towards the mouthpiece throat or throat shoulder as you descend below the staff, and you do that using the jaw and tongue position. The lower jaw may need to move down and forward, and the tongue tip down and forward.
There is also the classic:
In Ab, very low, slow lip slur, the Bb played in 3rd using the F attachment for slurs:
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :line2: :space3: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: .....
Again, a bit more room in a slightly wider mouthpiece might help you aim the air better for the notes below the staff, especially since you do seem to be very high placement, and you anchor on your top lip. With a wide mouthpiece, your top lip anchor could remain the same and the extra width would bring the throat slightly more in line with your lip aperture.
I'm seeing a bit of upturned corners but it seems to be working for most of your register. I am not one of the embouchure experts here, so I can't talk mechanics too much, but based on what I'm seeing, I would work on low lip slurs using the F attachment:
In Bb
:bassclef: :line2: :space0: :line2: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line4: ....
:bassclef: :space5: :line4: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line2: :space0: :line2: .....
Focusing on "glueing" the Bb and low F together. Then go down a half step:
In A, then in Ab:
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space3: ....
:bassclef: :line5: :space3: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: ....
And so on, as low as you can go until you would have to play a low B natural (stop there). The focus should be to aim the airstream towards the mouthpiece throat or throat shoulder as you descend below the staff, and you do that using the jaw and tongue position. The lower jaw may need to move down and forward, and the tongue tip down and forward.
There is also the classic:
In Ab, very low, slow lip slur, the Bb played in 3rd using the F attachment for slurs:
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :line2: :space3: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: .....
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Wow you sound very good in the upper register and mid register. I think your embouchure is just collapsing below the staff.[/quote]
I agree on both points.
Try out some descending arpeggios or slur down the partials starting on that high F instead of a scale. Play them very soft and as you descend use your embouchure motion/pivot instead of collapsing. Try to keep your corners in place and avoid the pursed lips. Allow the tone to be thin at first, you want to try to get used to how it works when you descend with compression before you begin to go after tone.
Speaking of embouchure motion/pivot I think that I'm seeing the ascend motion being up and to your right, descending down and to your left. Did Doug discuss changing the horn angle to follow the shape of your teeth and gums with this? Try bringing your horn angle over towards your right (yes, I meant to your left here sorry) as you descend, that might help open things up and make you feel less like pursing your lips out.
Dave
I agree on both points.
Try out some descending arpeggios or slur down the partials starting on that high F instead of a scale. Play them very soft and as you descend use your embouchure motion/pivot instead of collapsing. Try to keep your corners in place and avoid the pursed lips. Allow the tone to be thin at first, you want to try to get used to how it works when you descend with compression before you begin to go after tone.
Speaking of embouchure motion/pivot I think that I'm seeing the ascend motion being up and to your right, descending down and to your left. Did Doug discuss changing the horn angle to follow the shape of your teeth and gums with this? Try bringing your horn angle over towards your right (yes, I meant to your left here sorry) as you descend, that might help open things up and make you feel less like pursing your lips out.
Dave
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Wilktone"]Try out some descending arpeggios or slur down the partials starting on that high F instead of a scale. Play them very soft and as you descend use your embouchure motion/pivot instead of collapsing. Try to keep your corners in place and avoid the pursed lips. Allow the tone to be thin at first, you want to try to get used to how it works when you descend with compression before you begin to go after tone.[/quote]
If I rely only on the embouchure motion only, than it kind of becomes very difficult to do it. There are a few reasons:
1. My motion is to my right and up when ascending, but it is more horizontal than vertical (more than 45 degrees to my right when ascending and the same for descending but going downwards to my left).
2. I have to change the angle - this means a lot of movement with my horn because as I said to 1, It is more horizontal.
3. When getting to low F and bellow, the back of my horn is pressing against my neck.
I put two recordings here doing the descending arpeggios, relying as much as possible on the embouchure movement.
In the first one I'm using a Dennis Wick 4BL (I think this is mid-deep or mid-shallow cup - not sure how to call it).
<YOUTUBE id="OzmMaE8IX0U">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OzmMaE8IX0U</YOUTUBE>
In the second one I'm using a Dennis Wick 3AL - this is a deep cup.
<YOUTUBE id="GX9jV3Wk7tc">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GX9jV3Wk7tc</YOUTUBE>
N.B. I think even here I'm collapsing a bit the embouchure. I thought this is normal in the low register. I think I can do it without moving the corners of the mouth even a bit, but it will be pretty difficult to get the low notes out like this.
[quote="Wilktone"]
Speaking of embouchure motion/pivot I think that I'm seeing the ascend motion being up and to your right, descending down and to your left. Did Doug discuss changing the horn angle to follow the shape of your teeth and gums with this? Try bringing your horn angle over towards your right as you descend, that might help open things up and make you feel less like pursing your lips out.
Dave[/quote]
Yes, Doug presented me the whole concept I believe, including the "horn angle"-"gums-teeth" aspect.
I think you mean "towards your left as you descend", not "towards your right as you descend".
N.B. Of the points 1, 2 and 3 mentioned above, 2 can be overcome by moving the head instead of the instrument I believe. But point 3 is a bit more difficult. It would require to bend the horn, which I don't think is a good thing :). Anyways, getting a big sound in the low register only relying on the embouchure motion I think would be impossible.
Update after about 6 hours since I posted the previous part of this post:
Today I tried that descending arpeggios from high F. I managed to get something I believe, but it still seems to me to be very difficult to play low F, E at high speeds without collapsing the embouchure - supposedly after some many days of practicing.
This is what I could get with my regular DW 5BL (for now)
<YOUTUBE id="GYPIopt4rqw">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GYPIopt4rqw</YOUTUBE>
And with my DW 3AL (for now)
<YOUTUBE id="K4nEmH0rkLM">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K4nEmH0rkLM</YOUTUBE>
Thanks,
Andrei M.
If I rely only on the embouchure motion only, than it kind of becomes very difficult to do it. There are a few reasons:
1. My motion is to my right and up when ascending, but it is more horizontal than vertical (more than 45 degrees to my right when ascending and the same for descending but going downwards to my left).
2. I have to change the angle - this means a lot of movement with my horn because as I said to 1, It is more horizontal.
3. When getting to low F and bellow, the back of my horn is pressing against my neck.
I put two recordings here doing the descending arpeggios, relying as much as possible on the embouchure movement.
In the first one I'm using a Dennis Wick 4BL (I think this is mid-deep or mid-shallow cup - not sure how to call it).
<YOUTUBE id="OzmMaE8IX0U">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OzmMaE8IX0U</YOUTUBE>
In the second one I'm using a Dennis Wick 3AL - this is a deep cup.
<YOUTUBE id="GX9jV3Wk7tc">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GX9jV3Wk7tc</YOUTUBE>
N.B. I think even here I'm collapsing a bit the embouchure. I thought this is normal in the low register. I think I can do it without moving the corners of the mouth even a bit, but it will be pretty difficult to get the low notes out like this.
[quote="Wilktone"]
Speaking of embouchure motion/pivot I think that I'm seeing the ascend motion being up and to your right, descending down and to your left. Did Doug discuss changing the horn angle to follow the shape of your teeth and gums with this? Try bringing your horn angle over towards your right as you descend, that might help open things up and make you feel less like pursing your lips out.
Dave[/quote]
Yes, Doug presented me the whole concept I believe, including the "horn angle"-"gums-teeth" aspect.
I think you mean "towards your left as you descend", not "towards your right as you descend".
N.B. Of the points 1, 2 and 3 mentioned above, 2 can be overcome by moving the head instead of the instrument I believe. But point 3 is a bit more difficult. It would require to bend the horn, which I don't think is a good thing :). Anyways, getting a big sound in the low register only relying on the embouchure motion I think would be impossible.
Update after about 6 hours since I posted the previous part of this post:
Today I tried that descending arpeggios from high F. I managed to get something I believe, but it still seems to me to be very difficult to play low F, E at high speeds without collapsing the embouchure - supposedly after some many days of practicing.
This is what I could get with my regular DW 5BL (for now)
<YOUTUBE id="GYPIopt4rqw">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GYPIopt4rqw</YOUTUBE>
And with my DW 3AL (for now)
<YOUTUBE id="K4nEmH0rkLM">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K4nEmH0rkLM</YOUTUBE>
Thanks,
Andrei M.
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="harrisonreed"]<URL url="">[url]</URL>Wow you sound very good in the upper register and mid register. I think your embouchure is just collapsing below the staff.[/quote]
Thanks :). There's still a lot of work to be done.
[quote="harrisonreed"]Again, a bit more room in a slightly wider mouthpiece might help you aim the air better for the notes below the staff, especially since you do seem to be very high placement, and you anchor on your top lip. With a wide mouthpiece, your top lip anchor could remain the same and the extra width would bring the throat slightly more in line with your lip aperture.[/quote]
Maybe you have a more specific suggestion? Currently I'm using a Dennis Wick 5BL, but I also have a Dennis Wick 3AL. The first one is mid-deep cup, the second one is bigger and deep cup.
[quote="harrisonreed"]I'm seeing a bit of upturned corners but it seems to be working for most of your register.[/quote]
I think it has to do with the physiognomy of my face. So it seems to me.
[quote="harrisonreed"]In Bb
:bassclef: :line2: :space0: :line2: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line4: ....
:bassclef: :space5: :line4: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line2: :space0: :line2: .....
Focusing on "glueing" the Bb and low F together. Then go down a half step:
In A, then in Ab:
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space3: ....
:bassclef: :line5: :space3: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: ....
[...]
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :line2: :space3: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: .....[/quote]
The exercises are very helpful.
In regard to moving the jaw downwards, I think this should be avoided. Isn't it? When going bellow E I think it is justified. Anyways, moving the jaw downwards would mean collapsing the embouchure. Isn't it?
N.B. I think in the Encyclopedia of The Pivot System, Reinhardt says never to drop the jaw - I didn't read it a lot. Do you think he pressed this rule more than needed, if what I remember is correct?
Thanks,
Andrei M.
Thanks :). There's still a lot of work to be done.
[quote="harrisonreed"]Again, a bit more room in a slightly wider mouthpiece might help you aim the air better for the notes below the staff, especially since you do seem to be very high placement, and you anchor on your top lip. With a wide mouthpiece, your top lip anchor could remain the same and the extra width would bring the throat slightly more in line with your lip aperture.[/quote]
Maybe you have a more specific suggestion? Currently I'm using a Dennis Wick 5BL, but I also have a Dennis Wick 3AL. The first one is mid-deep cup, the second one is bigger and deep cup.
[quote="harrisonreed"]I'm seeing a bit of upturned corners but it seems to be working for most of your register.[/quote]
I think it has to do with the physiognomy of my face. So it seems to me.
[quote="harrisonreed"]In Bb
:bassclef: :line2: :space0: :line2: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line4: ....
:bassclef: :space5: :line4: :line3: :line2: :line3: :line2: :space0: :line2: .....
Focusing on "glueing" the Bb and low F together. Then go down a half step:
In A, then in Ab:
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space3: ....
:bassclef: :line5: :space3: :space2: :space1: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: ....
[...]
:bassclef: :space1: :line0: :space1: :line2: :space3: :space2: :space1: :line0: :space1: .....[/quote]
The exercises are very helpful.
In regard to moving the jaw downwards, I think this should be avoided. Isn't it? When going bellow E I think it is justified. Anyways, moving the jaw downwards would mean collapsing the embouchure. Isn't it?
N.B. I think in the Encyclopedia of The Pivot System, Reinhardt says never to drop the jaw - I didn't read it a lot. Do you think he pressed this rule more than needed, if what I remember is correct?
Thanks,
Andrei M.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The adjustments I'm talking about are very small. Tiny movements of the jaw. In fact, rather than thinking of moving the jaw downward, maybe think of just moving the lower jaw forward slightly as you descend, and moving the tongue with it.
As for rim ID, you might actually do well on something even wider than the 3AL, who knows? But the problem is that with the Wick pieces as you've noticed, they get deeper as you go wider, which isn't necessarily what you want. For specific ideas, I'm assuming that's a large bore trombone:
The Doug Elliott system shows you to use a wide rim on the same cup. If you wanted to try it I'd suggest the 104 rim on an F or G cup.
The Griego Artist 3C or 4C are also in that ballpark. The B cups are also nice.
I also make mouthpieces and would suggest my O2 orchestral mouthpiece with a 1.04" rim ID.
That said, the problem only seems to be around your range below the staff and everything else seems to work well -- seeking the solution through equipment at that point might be counter-productive.
As for rim ID, you might actually do well on something even wider than the 3AL, who knows? But the problem is that with the Wick pieces as you've noticed, they get deeper as you go wider, which isn't necessarily what you want. For specific ideas, I'm assuming that's a large bore trombone:
The Doug Elliott system shows you to use a wide rim on the same cup. If you wanted to try it I'd suggest the 104 rim on an F or G cup.
The Griego Artist 3C or 4C are also in that ballpark. The B cups are also nice.
I also make mouthpieces and would suggest my O2 orchestral mouthpiece with a 1.04" rim ID.
That said, the problem only seems to be around your range below the staff and everything else seems to work well -- seeking the solution through equipment at that point might be counter-productive.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="andrei"]I think you mean "towards your left as you descend", not "towards your right as you descend".[/quote]
Yes I did, sorry. I'm glad you know enough to catch my mistake.
[quote="andrei"]If I rely only on the embouchure motion only, than it kind of becomes very difficult to do it. There are a few reasons:
1. My motion is to my right and up when ascending, but it is more horizontal than vertical (more than 45 degrees to my right when ascending and the same for descending but going downwards to my left).
2. I have to change the angle - this means a lot of movement with my horn because as I said to 1, It is more horizontal.
3. When getting to low F and bellow, the back of my horn is pressing against my neck.[/quote]
That's very familiar to me, except I move towards my left to ascend and the horn presses against my neck in the upper register. One of my horns, a Benge 170 I think, has the bend already built into it, but I prefer to play my King 2B most of the time. I wish that this issue was on my descending side too, since I do most of my playing in and above the staff, but I've gotten used to it and make do.
[quote="andrei"]I put two recordings here doing the descending arpeggios, relying as much as possible on the embouchure movement.[/quote]
That's it.
[quote="andrei"]But point 3 is a bit more difficult. It would require to bend the horn, which I don't think is a good thing . Anyways, getting a big sound in the low register only relying on the embouchure motion I think would be impossible.[/quote]
It may feel impossible now, but I think that if you practice descending like this that over time it will become easier. You may find that you don't need as much angle change to the left either. In the meantime, do your best to bring the angle over where it needs to be. Allow the tone to be softer and thinner for now.
When you're performing or in rehearsal mode do whatever you need to.
[quote="andrei"]harrisonreed wrote: Tue Jan 20, 2026 6:44 pm
I'm seeing a bit of upturned corners but it seems to be working for most of your register.
I think it has to do with the physiognomy of my face. So it seems to me.[/quote]
Yeah, I looked for that but I think that it's a combination of the light causing shadows and dimples/etc. The corners looked OK as far as I can tell (excepting the collapsing in the low register).
[quote="andrei"]In regard to moving the jaw downwards, I think this should be avoided. Isn't it? When going bellow E I think it is justified. Anyways, moving the jaw downwards would mean collapsing the embouchure. Isn't it?
N.B. I think in the Encyclopedia of The Pivot System, Reinhardt says never to drop the jaw - I didn't read it a lot. Do you think he pressed this rule more than needed, if what I remember is correct?[/quote]
I tend to agree with Reinhardt on this, but you do what you need to when performing or rehearsing. Minimize or eliminate dropping the jaw to descend. One of the main risks, particularly for Very High Placement type embouchure players, is that you pull your mouthpiece off the "groove" on the top lip. As a Low Placement type player, I will sometimes pull the mouthpiece completely off my top lip.
[quote="harrisonreed"]The adjustments I'm talking about are very small. Tiny movements of the jaw. In fact, rather than thinking of moving the jaw downward, maybe think of just moving the lower jaw forward slightly as you descend, and moving the tongue with it.[/quote]
Yes, try to minimize jaw movement but eliminating it, if possible, is better.
If anything, I find it's better to allow the jaw to recede slightly to descend, rather than protrude it. I suspect that players who protrude the jaw to descend are doing so as a result of dropping it at the same time.
So maybe see if you can keep the jaw in its same up/down position, but allow it to recede very slightly. You might even try bringing your jaw slightly to your right as your horn angle moves to your left to descend - still keeping it in the same up/down position. When the horn angle moves to one side the jaw will sometimes move to the opposite side (very slightly). That could result in you needing to bring the angle to your left while descending as much.
Dave
Yes I did, sorry. I'm glad you know enough to catch my mistake.
[quote="andrei"]If I rely only on the embouchure motion only, than it kind of becomes very difficult to do it. There are a few reasons:
1. My motion is to my right and up when ascending, but it is more horizontal than vertical (more than 45 degrees to my right when ascending and the same for descending but going downwards to my left).
2. I have to change the angle - this means a lot of movement with my horn because as I said to 1, It is more horizontal.
3. When getting to low F and bellow, the back of my horn is pressing against my neck.[/quote]
That's very familiar to me, except I move towards my left to ascend and the horn presses against my neck in the upper register. One of my horns, a Benge 170 I think, has the bend already built into it, but I prefer to play my King 2B most of the time. I wish that this issue was on my descending side too, since I do most of my playing in and above the staff, but I've gotten used to it and make do.
[quote="andrei"]I put two recordings here doing the descending arpeggios, relying as much as possible on the embouchure movement.[/quote]
That's it.
[quote="andrei"]But point 3 is a bit more difficult. It would require to bend the horn, which I don't think is a good thing . Anyways, getting a big sound in the low register only relying on the embouchure motion I think would be impossible.[/quote]
It may feel impossible now, but I think that if you practice descending like this that over time it will become easier. You may find that you don't need as much angle change to the left either. In the meantime, do your best to bring the angle over where it needs to be. Allow the tone to be softer and thinner for now.
When you're performing or in rehearsal mode do whatever you need to.
[quote="andrei"]harrisonreed wrote: Tue Jan 20, 2026 6:44 pm
I'm seeing a bit of upturned corners but it seems to be working for most of your register.
I think it has to do with the physiognomy of my face. So it seems to me.[/quote]
Yeah, I looked for that but I think that it's a combination of the light causing shadows and dimples/etc. The corners looked OK as far as I can tell (excepting the collapsing in the low register).
[quote="andrei"]In regard to moving the jaw downwards, I think this should be avoided. Isn't it? When going bellow E I think it is justified. Anyways, moving the jaw downwards would mean collapsing the embouchure. Isn't it?
N.B. I think in the Encyclopedia of The Pivot System, Reinhardt says never to drop the jaw - I didn't read it a lot. Do you think he pressed this rule more than needed, if what I remember is correct?[/quote]
I tend to agree with Reinhardt on this, but you do what you need to when performing or rehearsing. Minimize or eliminate dropping the jaw to descend. One of the main risks, particularly for Very High Placement type embouchure players, is that you pull your mouthpiece off the "groove" on the top lip. As a Low Placement type player, I will sometimes pull the mouthpiece completely off my top lip.
[quote="harrisonreed"]The adjustments I'm talking about are very small. Tiny movements of the jaw. In fact, rather than thinking of moving the jaw downward, maybe think of just moving the lower jaw forward slightly as you descend, and moving the tongue with it.[/quote]
Yes, try to minimize jaw movement but eliminating it, if possible, is better.
If anything, I find it's better to allow the jaw to recede slightly to descend, rather than protrude it. I suspect that players who protrude the jaw to descend are doing so as a result of dropping it at the same time.
So maybe see if you can keep the jaw in its same up/down position, but allow it to recede very slightly. You might even try bringing your jaw slightly to your right as your horn angle moves to your left to descend - still keeping it in the same up/down position. When the horn angle moves to one side the jaw will sometimes move to the opposite side (very slightly). That could result in you needing to bring the angle to your left while descending as much.
Dave
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Wilktone"]
It may feel impossible now, but I think that if you practice descending like this that over time it will become easier. You may find that you don't need as much angle change to the left either. In the meantime, do your best to bring the angle over where it needs to be. Allow the tone to be softer and thinner for now.[/quote]
I think I found it. In the high register, I have to go right and up, in the low register (bellow Ab or G) I have to go left and up. That's unexpected, but it seems so. This together with stable mouth corners makes it almost perfect for now. Probably in a few weeks, it'll be perfect.
For me, this upward movement on the low register doesn't seem to change the air stream. I think this is the motion which the lips prefer in the left side of the mouth for going low.
As a side topic, would it be possible for a player to change the air stream like this? (Let's say, if high register is downstream, the low register to be upstream or vice versa). If yes, how would the switch have to occur in order to avoid cracking the notes (which happens when you blow directly in the mouthpiece's hole)?
Thanks Dave for guidance. It really helped.
Harrisonreed, I think a wider rim will make it better. For now I'll remain with my 5BL, but in the long run, probably I'll have to make a change. Thanks for the insight.
It may feel impossible now, but I think that if you practice descending like this that over time it will become easier. You may find that you don't need as much angle change to the left either. In the meantime, do your best to bring the angle over where it needs to be. Allow the tone to be softer and thinner for now.[/quote]
I think I found it. In the high register, I have to go right and up, in the low register (bellow Ab or G) I have to go left and up. That's unexpected, but it seems so. This together with stable mouth corners makes it almost perfect for now. Probably in a few weeks, it'll be perfect.
For me, this upward movement on the low register doesn't seem to change the air stream. I think this is the motion which the lips prefer in the left side of the mouth for going low.
As a side topic, would it be possible for a player to change the air stream like this? (Let's say, if high register is downstream, the low register to be upstream or vice versa). If yes, how would the switch have to occur in order to avoid cracking the notes (which happens when you blow directly in the mouthpiece's hole)?
Thanks Dave for guidance. It really helped.
Harrisonreed, I think a wider rim will make it better. For now I'll remain with my 5BL, but in the long run, probably I'll have to make a change. Thanks for the insight.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="andrei"]I think I found it. In the high register, I have to go right and up, in the low register (bellow Ab or G) I have to go left and up. That's unexpected, but it seems so. This together with stable mouth corners makes it almost perfect for now. Probably in a few weeks, it'll be perfect.[/quote]
Be careful, that's not what I would expect to be correct. Players who reverse the direction of their embouchure motion like this often develop problems, sometimes in a different register.
If you're pushing up and to the right to ascend you should be pulling down and to your left to descend. Keep the distance between octaves the same, just in the opposite direction. If you're finding you have to start going back up on the descending side it's possible that you're pulling down too far to descend and need to come back up to put things in the right place. Based on what I recall from watching your videos earlier, that's possible. If I remember correctly you have a large amount of pulling down motion to descend, much more than you use when ascending.
[quote="andrei"]As a side topic, would it be possible for a player to change the air stream like this? (Let's say, if high register is downstream, the low register to be upstream or vice versa). If yes, how would the switch have to occur in order to avoid cracking the notes (which happens when you blow directly in the mouthpiece's hole)?[/quote]
It is possible, but not advisable. The flip in air stream direction is always present. There's usually a tone change between the two sides of things. Players can get good a disguising the flip (sometimes even from themselves), but it's always more work to play around the break and it can suddenly get bad for no seeming reason if it's not corrected.
This situation generally happens with a mouthpiece placement that is too close to 50/50. One lip or another needs to be predominant inside the mouthpiece. It really doesn't have anything to do with how you're pushing or pulling the mouthpiece and lips together along the teeth and gums.
<YOUTUBE id="2_Qm8rw7m_4">[media]https://youtu.be/2_Qm8rw7m_4</YOUTUBE>
Sometimes players will slide their placement up or down on the lips and get a flip of air stream direction too, but that situation is even more noticeable and still problematic.
Dave
Be careful, that's not what I would expect to be correct. Players who reverse the direction of their embouchure motion like this often develop problems, sometimes in a different register.
If you're pushing up and to the right to ascend you should be pulling down and to your left to descend. Keep the distance between octaves the same, just in the opposite direction. If you're finding you have to start going back up on the descending side it's possible that you're pulling down too far to descend and need to come back up to put things in the right place. Based on what I recall from watching your videos earlier, that's possible. If I remember correctly you have a large amount of pulling down motion to descend, much more than you use when ascending.
[quote="andrei"]As a side topic, would it be possible for a player to change the air stream like this? (Let's say, if high register is downstream, the low register to be upstream or vice versa). If yes, how would the switch have to occur in order to avoid cracking the notes (which happens when you blow directly in the mouthpiece's hole)?[/quote]
It is possible, but not advisable. The flip in air stream direction is always present. There's usually a tone change between the two sides of things. Players can get good a disguising the flip (sometimes even from themselves), but it's always more work to play around the break and it can suddenly get bad for no seeming reason if it's not corrected.
This situation generally happens with a mouthpiece placement that is too close to 50/50. One lip or another needs to be predominant inside the mouthpiece. It really doesn't have anything to do with how you're pushing or pulling the mouthpiece and lips together along the teeth and gums.
<YOUTUBE id="2_Qm8rw7m_4">
Sometimes players will slide their placement up or down on the lips and get a flip of air stream direction too, but that situation is even more noticeable and still problematic.
Dave
- Gfunk
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Jan 10, 2022
[quote="andrei"]
I think I found it. In the high register, I have to go right and up, in the low register (bellow Ab or G) I have to go left and up. That's unexpected, but it seems so. This together with stable mouth corners makes it almost perfect for now.[/quote]
Dave really had a lot of great thoughts on this that echoed my experience since a younger me had a similar thought to yours. Who would’ve guessed, Doug was right and I was wrong. I needed to keep moving in the same directing descending. Not doing so created an uneven sound in the lower register and register continuity issues. I REALLY trust Doug and Dave on this stuff.
I think I found it. In the high register, I have to go right and up, in the low register (bellow Ab or G) I have to go left and up. That's unexpected, but it seems so. This together with stable mouth corners makes it almost perfect for now.[/quote]
Dave really had a lot of great thoughts on this that echoed my experience since a younger me had a similar thought to yours. Who would’ve guessed, Doug was right and I was wrong. I needed to keep moving in the same directing descending. Not doing so created an uneven sound in the lower register and register continuity issues. I REALLY trust Doug and Dave on this stuff.
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Wilktone"]Be careful, that's not what I would expect to be correct. Players who reverse the direction of their embouchure motion like this often develop problems, sometimes in a different register.[/quote]
I think I'll stick with your advice for one month and if there are no results, probably there is something missing. I'll come back.
[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="andrei" post_id="293256" time="1769428763" user_id="17987">
As a side topic, would it be possible for a player to change the air stream like this? (Let's say, if high register is downstream, the low register to be upstream or vice versa). If yes, how would the switch have to occur in order to avoid cracking the notes (which happens when you blow directly in the mouthpiece's hole)?[/quote]
It is possible, but not advisable. The flip in air stream direction is always present. There's usually a tone change between the two sides of things. Players can get good a disguising the flip (sometimes even from themselves), but it's always more work to play around the break and it can suddenly get bad for no seeming reason if it's not corrected.
</QUOTE>
I'm talking about exceptional scenarios when this would be the way to go for that person, not when he's going wrong.
I think I'll stick with your advice for one month and if there are no results, probably there is something missing. I'll come back.
[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="andrei" post_id="293256" time="1769428763" user_id="17987">
As a side topic, would it be possible for a player to change the air stream like this? (Let's say, if high register is downstream, the low register to be upstream or vice versa). If yes, how would the switch have to occur in order to avoid cracking the notes (which happens when you blow directly in the mouthpiece's hole)?[/quote]
It is possible, but not advisable. The flip in air stream direction is always present. There's usually a tone change between the two sides of things. Players can get good a disguising the flip (sometimes even from themselves), but it's always more work to play around the break and it can suddenly get bad for no seeming reason if it's not corrected.
</QUOTE>
I'm talking about exceptional scenarios when this would be the way to go for that person, not when he's going wrong.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="andrei"]I think I'll stick with your advice for one month and if there are no results, probably there is something missing. I'll come back.[/quote]
If you're able, catch another lesson from Doug. He can help you work this out.
[quote="andrei"]I'm talking about exceptional scenarios when this would be the way to go for that person, not when he's going wrong.[/quote]
Embouchure type switching, whether it's changing the direction of your embouchure motion/pivot or flipping air stream direction is "wrong." There will always be that break around the air stream flip which causes notes to crack and makes it difficult to smoothly play across the break. Sure, you can get better at player "wrong," but that has a tendency to catch up to people if they don't make corrections before. When things do end up breaking down it becomes even harder to fix.
If you're able, catch another lesson from Doug. He can help you work this out.
[quote="andrei"]I'm talking about exceptional scenarios when this would be the way to go for that person, not when he's going wrong.[/quote]
Embouchure type switching, whether it's changing the direction of your embouchure motion/pivot or flipping air stream direction is "wrong." There will always be that break around the air stream flip which causes notes to crack and makes it difficult to smoothly play across the break. Sure, you can get better at player "wrong," but that has a tendency to catch up to people if they don't make corrections before. When things do end up breaking down it becomes even harder to fix.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
All of your issues would be easier and more correct on a larger mouthpiece. The things you mentioned are very common when the mouthpiece is too small for you.
When you find the right size rim, nothing is harder and everything is easier.
And for low range, try using firmer corners and a little more mouthpiece pressure. Everybody seems to think you need to relax and use less pressure, but often it's exactly the opposite. A friend and also a Reinhardt student, on trumpet (Chris LaBarbera), would say "you need to use just as much mouthpiece pressure on low C as you do for high C." It's true.
When you find the right size rim, nothing is harder and everything is easier.
And for low range, try using firmer corners and a little more mouthpiece pressure. Everybody seems to think you need to relax and use less pressure, but often it's exactly the opposite. A friend and also a Reinhardt student, on trumpet (Chris LaBarbera), would say "you need to use just as much mouthpiece pressure on low C as you do for high C." It's true.
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Doug Elliott"]All of your issues would be easier and more correct on a larger mouthpiece. The things you mentioned are very common when the mouthpiece is too small for you.
When you find the right size rim, nothing is harder and everything is easier.[/quote]
My Dennis Wick 3AL seems to be better than Dennis Wick 4BL, although still have problems in the low register. Would you recommend a starting point?
[quote="Doug Elliott"]And for low range, try using firmer corners and a little more mouthpiece pressure. Everybody seems to think you need to relax and use less pressure, but often it's exactly the opposite.[/quote]
Easy said :). Even with my big 3AL, I need to roll out my lips in order to get the low sound. If I try to put more mouthpiece pressure, maybe it will work. Too early to pronounce myself.
This is with Dennis Wick 3AL
<YOUTUBE id="c_9TVxIlX74">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_9TVxIlX74</YOUTUBE>
When you find the right size rim, nothing is harder and everything is easier.[/quote]
My Dennis Wick 3AL seems to be better than Dennis Wick 4BL, although still have problems in the low register. Would you recommend a starting point?
[quote="Doug Elliott"]And for low range, try using firmer corners and a little more mouthpiece pressure. Everybody seems to think you need to relax and use less pressure, but often it's exactly the opposite.[/quote]
Easy said :). Even with my big 3AL, I need to roll out my lips in order to get the low sound. If I try to put more mouthpiece pressure, maybe it will work. Too early to pronounce myself.
This is with Dennis Wick 3AL
<YOUTUBE id="c_9TVxIlX74">
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Notice how you use a very large amount of pulling down and to your left to descend from middle F to low F. Compare that with the amount of pushing up and to your right that you make to go from middle F to F above the staff. Try making the descending motion the same amount, just in a different direction.
I really can't speak about mouthpieces, but having a mouthpiece that fits you might help with reducing the descending motion.
Dave
I really can't speak about mouthpieces, but having a mouthpiece that fits you might help with reducing the descending motion.
Dave
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Wilktone"]Notice how you use a very large amount of pulling down and to your left to descend from middle F to low F. Compare that with the amount of pushing up and to your right that you make to go from middle F to F above the staff. Try making the descending motion the same amount, just in a different direction.
I really can't speak about mouthpieces, but having a mouthpiece that fits you might help with reducing the descending motion.
Dave[/quote]
Yes, but DW 5BL doesn't help, 3AL, doesn't help. And between the two, there's a big gap. I don't think something in the middle will help, and 3AL already I think is big. Currently I'm stuck with this. I'm curious to see the solution I'll find to this. There must be one, only I have to find out.
Andrei M.
I really can't speak about mouthpieces, but having a mouthpiece that fits you might help with reducing the descending motion.
Dave[/quote]
Yes, but DW 5BL doesn't help, 3AL, doesn't help. And between the two, there's a big gap. I don't think something in the middle will help, and 3AL already I think is big. Currently I'm stuck with this. I'm curious to see the solution I'll find to this. There must be one, only I have to find out.
Andrei M.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That shifting left/right looks pretty excessive. As a solution that doesn't involve any money or equipment changes, I'd recommend working extensively on lip slurs between registers, especially to build the lower register. That needs to be the base, and you build up on top of it.
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="harrisonreed"]That shifting left/right looks pretty excessive. As a solution that doesn't involve any money or equipment changes, I'd recommend working extensively on lip slurs between registers, especially to build the lower register. That needs to be the base, and you build up on top of it.
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
I see that this won't change the situation. The excessive movement is there and is needed when doing this kind of embouchure motion. This is very clear to me. But maybe I'm wrong.
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
I see that this won't change the situation. The excessive movement is there and is needed when doing this kind of embouchure motion. This is very clear to me. But maybe I'm wrong.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="andrei"]I see that this won't change the situation. The excessive movement is there and is needed when doing this kind of embouchure motion. This is very clear to me. But maybe I'm wrong.[/quote]
It may be needed now, but I think if you continue to work on reducing the excessive motion that you'll find it works better in the long term. Keep in mind that when you're rehearsing or performing, do what you need to. In the practice room spend some time accepting a softer and thinner sound and work on making the distance between octaves work the same.
[quote="harrisonreed"]There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
That's good for some players/situations, but I think in Andrei's case I would try flipping this idea upside down and make the F above the staff as the "home base" and work on descending from there. I think the upper and middle register looks and sounds good, it's the low register that's not as efficient. So my advice would be to use the register that's working well as the starting point, rather than building up from where it's not working so well.
Again, a lesson with Doug would probably help you get a better start over trying to explain these things over posts.
Dave
It may be needed now, but I think if you continue to work on reducing the excessive motion that you'll find it works better in the long term. Keep in mind that when you're rehearsing or performing, do what you need to. In the practice room spend some time accepting a softer and thinner sound and work on making the distance between octaves work the same.
[quote="harrisonreed"]There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
That's good for some players/situations, but I think in Andrei's case I would try flipping this idea upside down and make the F above the staff as the "home base" and work on descending from there. I think the upper and middle register looks and sounds good, it's the low register that's not as efficient. So my advice would be to use the register that's working well as the starting point, rather than building up from where it's not working so well.
Again, a lesson with Doug would probably help you get a better start over trying to explain these things over posts.
Dave
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
A thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, whA thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, which is what I use.
Also your 4th line F needs to be slight farther down to your left. Minimize the pivot between middle F znd low F by moving them closer together. The low F is OK but notice in your video how you miss the middle F, coming up from low F.. You're going too far, that's why you missed it.
Also your 4th line F needs to be slight farther down to your left. Minimize the pivot between middle F znd low F by moving them closer together. The low F is OK but notice in your video how you miss the middle F, coming up from low F.. You're going too far, that's why you missed it.
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Also your 4th line F needs to be slight farther down to your left. Minimize the pivot between middle F znd low F by moving them closer together. The low F is OK but notice in your video how you miss the middle F, coming up from low F.. You're going too far, that's why you missed it.[/quote]
Spot on. I think that's the issue. The mouthpiece is too much to the right in the neutral position. Putting it only very little to right in the neutral position seems to do the trick. Everything starts to work better, even with the 5BL.
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, whA thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, which is what I use.[/quote]
Anyways, a bigger mouthpiece and a narrow rim I think would help. I'm not experienced with different rims but probably you're right.
Thank you very much, Doug.
Dave, I think the descending arpeggios helps a lot with the mouth corners. Thanks.
Harrison, yes, I do have to work on the legato and strengthen the low register and the linking between the low and middle register. Thanks.
[quote="Doug Elliott"]And for low range, try using firmer corners and a little more mouthpiece pressure. Everybody seems to think you need to relax and use less pressure, but often it's exactly the opposite. A friend and also a Reinhardt student, on trumpet (Chris LaBarbera), would say "you need to use just as much mouthpiece pressure on low C as you do for high C." It's true.[/quote]
That's the only thing which I think doesn't match (yet). Probably I have to investigate more on this meanwhile.
Andrei M.
Spot on. I think that's the issue. The mouthpiece is too much to the right in the neutral position. Putting it only very little to right in the neutral position seems to do the trick. Everything starts to work better, even with the 5BL.
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, whA thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, which is what I use.[/quote]
Anyways, a bigger mouthpiece and a narrow rim I think would help. I'm not experienced with different rims but probably you're right.
Thank you very much, Doug.
Dave, I think the descending arpeggios helps a lot with the mouth corners. Thanks.
Harrison, yes, I do have to work on the legato and strengthen the low register and the linking between the low and middle register. Thanks.
[quote="Doug Elliott"]And for low range, try using firmer corners and a little more mouthpiece pressure. Everybody seems to think you need to relax and use less pressure, but often it's exactly the opposite. A friend and also a Reinhardt student, on trumpet (Chris LaBarbera), would say "you need to use just as much mouthpiece pressure on low C as you do for high C." It's true.[/quote]
That's the only thing which I think doesn't match (yet). Probably I have to investigate more on this meanwhile.
Andrei M.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
You could do it that way, but his upper register sounds really really good. It must be working correctly, so better to move that down lower than work on building the low up? Seems reasonable anyway. It's how I understand Doug's approach.
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
You could do it that way, but his upper register sounds really really good. It must be working correctly, so better to move that down lower than work on building the low up? Seems reasonable anyway. It's how I understand Doug's approach.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="293438" time="1769624995" user_id="3642">
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
You could do it that way, but his upper register sounds really really good. It must be working correctly, so better to move that down lower than work on building the low up? Seems reasonable anyway. It's how I understand Doug's approach.
</QUOTE>
I can see both ways. From a mechanics perspective, sure you could lock on to whatever note sounds the best and say, okay, we will expand outwards from here. But that's making a few assumptions. First you're assuming that just because a particular register sounds the best that the mechanic behind it is automatically correct and that is just a matter of expanding from there. I think that's a bad assumption. It might be the right assumption, but if it's not, then it might not translate through every register. That's why the large left/right shift seems like something that might need to be looked into more.
The other thing you're assuming is that that register (the one that sounds the best) is a useful "base" to start from to begin with. Let's say that the :trebleclef: :line5: is the most awesome sounding note. That is not a note most trombone players need too often. It might as well be as useful as pedal F. If :trebleclef: :line5: is your home base, then :bassclef: :line4: is a note already two octaves from your home base, :bassclef: :space0: is now in an extreme register, and pedal F is potentially impossible. And how far can you realistically expand upwards from :trebleclef: :line5: ? Middle and low F are far more useful notes on tenor trombone. You need to have those.
I'm not saying that it's impossible, and I'm not an embouchure expert. To me it makes a great deal of logical sense for :bassclef: :line4: to be home base, because it is smack dab in the middle of everything. :bassclef: :space0: was my other suggestion precisely because that seems to be the breakpoint for Andrei. Basing all range building exercises with that as "home" should pretty much underline, highlight, and put a sign on what needs work.
I think Doug is 100% right about rim ID. I suggested the same size. His idea about going narrow on the OD is good, too. Andrei might even do better on a 1.06" rim. Who knows?
There are some who advocate that the middle register, like :bassclef: :line4: should be your most solid note, but I think it's better if :bassclef: :space0: is extra solid, and build up from that base all the way to :trebleclef: :line5:[/quote]
You could do it that way, but his upper register sounds really really good. It must be working correctly, so better to move that down lower than work on building the low up? Seems reasonable anyway. It's how I understand Doug's approach.
</QUOTE>
I can see both ways. From a mechanics perspective, sure you could lock on to whatever note sounds the best and say, okay, we will expand outwards from here. But that's making a few assumptions. First you're assuming that just because a particular register sounds the best that the mechanic behind it is automatically correct and that is just a matter of expanding from there. I think that's a bad assumption. It might be the right assumption, but if it's not, then it might not translate through every register. That's why the large left/right shift seems like something that might need to be looked into more.
The other thing you're assuming is that that register (the one that sounds the best) is a useful "base" to start from to begin with. Let's say that the :trebleclef: :line5: is the most awesome sounding note. That is not a note most trombone players need too often. It might as well be as useful as pedal F. If :trebleclef: :line5: is your home base, then :bassclef: :line4: is a note already two octaves from your home base, :bassclef: :space0: is now in an extreme register, and pedal F is potentially impossible. And how far can you realistically expand upwards from :trebleclef: :line5: ? Middle and low F are far more useful notes on tenor trombone. You need to have those.
I'm not saying that it's impossible, and I'm not an embouchure expert. To me it makes a great deal of logical sense for :bassclef: :line4: to be home base, because it is smack dab in the middle of everything. :bassclef: :space0: was my other suggestion precisely because that seems to be the breakpoint for Andrei. Basing all range building exercises with that as "home" should pretty much underline, highlight, and put a sign on what needs work.
I think Doug is 100% right about rim ID. I suggested the same size. His idea about going narrow on the OD is good, too. Andrei might even do better on a 1.06" rim. Who knows?
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="harrisonreed"]I think Doug is 100% right about rim ID. I suggested the same size. His idea about going narrow on the OD is good, too. Andrei might even do better on a 1.06" rim. Who knows?[/quote]
What's the reasoning for bigger mouthpiece? Is it mainly the need for low register or is there something else?
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, whA thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, which is what I use.[/quote]
What's the reasoning for bigger rim? Only the need for low register? What about the thinner rim? Is it mainly experience? I would be interested in the logic behind it. Thanks.
What's the reasoning for bigger mouthpiece? Is it mainly the need for low register or is there something else?
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, whA thinner rim would help a lot. I don't think Wick makes a 3NAL. The size of my N104, which is what I use.[/quote]
What's the reasoning for bigger rim? Only the need for low register? What about the thinner rim? Is it mainly experience? I would be interested in the logic behind it. Thanks.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="andrei"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="293481" time="1769704454" user_id="3642">
I think Doug is 100% right about rim ID. I suggested the same size. His idea about going narrow on the OD is good, too. Andrei might even do better on a 1.06" rim. Who knows?[/quote]
What's the reasoning for bigger mouthpiece? Is it mainly the need for low register or is there something else?
</QUOTE>
To play well in the lower register you must have the air stream directed close to the throat entrance on the mouthpiece. Assuming you are a downstream player (looks like you are), you have so much upper lip in the mouthpiece that it becomes extremely difficult to direct the air that way without moving against your downstream mechanics.
I believe that your upper register is as strong as it is because your aperture is very close to the bottom edge of the mouthpiece rim -- the target for the air in the upper register is close to the edge of the rim. You have almost no lower lip in the cup, so you barely need to aim the aperture for that register. But to play in the low register you almost have to aim upstream to do it.
By using a larger rim inner diameter (but not necessarily a deeper cup), you can keep the upper lip anchored the same way, and have more lower lip in the mouthpiece. The aperture will be more in line with the mouthpiece throat, making the target for the low register more feasible. You should be able to move the embouchure properly without as drastic of shifts in that wider diameter, *within* the bounds of the rim, rather than the rim physically moving across your face.
I suspect that a narrow rim thickness (wide ID, narrow OD) would feel better because your mouthpiece is already touching your nose. The narrow rim allows for a wider mouthpiece to be used with the same anchor point. Otherwise the anchor point moves down as you go wider, because your nose is the limit.
Here is what I'm talking about, greatly exaggerated:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20260129_150803.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]20260129_150803.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
I think Doug is 100% right about rim ID. I suggested the same size. His idea about going narrow on the OD is good, too. Andrei might even do better on a 1.06" rim. Who knows?[/quote]
What's the reasoning for bigger mouthpiece? Is it mainly the need for low register or is there something else?
</QUOTE>
To play well in the lower register you must have the air stream directed close to the throat entrance on the mouthpiece. Assuming you are a downstream player (looks like you are), you have so much upper lip in the mouthpiece that it becomes extremely difficult to direct the air that way without moving against your downstream mechanics.
I believe that your upper register is as strong as it is because your aperture is very close to the bottom edge of the mouthpiece rim -- the target for the air in the upper register is close to the edge of the rim. You have almost no lower lip in the cup, so you barely need to aim the aperture for that register. But to play in the low register you almost have to aim upstream to do it.
By using a larger rim inner diameter (but not necessarily a deeper cup), you can keep the upper lip anchored the same way, and have more lower lip in the mouthpiece. The aperture will be more in line with the mouthpiece throat, making the target for the low register more feasible. You should be able to move the embouchure properly without as drastic of shifts in that wider diameter, *within* the bounds of the rim, rather than the rim physically moving across your face.
I suspect that a narrow rim thickness (wide ID, narrow OD) would feel better because your mouthpiece is already touching your nose. The narrow rim allows for a wider mouthpiece to be used with the same anchor point. Otherwise the anchor point moves down as you go wider, because your nose is the limit.
Here is what I'm talking about, greatly exaggerated:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20260129_150803.jpg" index="0">
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
When your mouthpiece placement is right at the bottom of your nose, it's basically locked onto the underlying structure, so it limits how you can move.. A thinner rim gets away from that. It's not necessarily about using a bigger inside dimension. A thin rim allows easier range in both directions... if that's your facial structure.
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
I remember long time ago how I managed to get the low notes. Trying and trying. Didn't get it. Then I just tried to glizz down from F to pedal Bb. The clue was not to do so many fancy thing. I was so happy to get my first low Bb. Glizz down was my trick.
There is lots of videos about how to make the high register. Not so many about how to make the low register. But to play with confidence down there I believe we need the same firmness as in any register.
I would recommend playing any melody/tune in the low register to make it stable. And flexibility exercises up and down from your most easy favourite pitch. Maybe F, Bb or maybe even a G or C? We have 7 positions to start from. :good:
Leif
There is lots of videos about how to make the high register. Not so many about how to make the low register. But to play with confidence down there I believe we need the same firmness as in any register.
I would recommend playing any melody/tune in the low register to make it stable. And flexibility exercises up and down from your most easy favourite pitch. Maybe F, Bb or maybe even a G or C? We have 7 positions to start from. :good:
Leif
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="harrisonreed"]To play well in the lower register you must have the air stream directed close to the throat entrance on the mouthpiece. Assuming you are a downstream player (looks like you are), you have so much upper lip in the mouthpiece that it becomes extremely difficult to direct the air that way without moving against your downstream mechanics.
[...][/quote]
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. Although I knew the general principle, putting it like this, very simple and clear, pinpoints another issue. I think that a second thing to go is moving a bit down the mouthpiece, without compromising the comfort. If this works, it is possible that some other pieces will start to work better (I'm thinking about the pressure in the low register).
Thanks everyone for contribution to this topic. I think it really helped me. Probably a lesson with Dough will be of great benefit in the near future, after trying to establish the new position. All this with the proper mouthpiece will make a big difference - most likely.
Andrei M.
[...][/quote]
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. Although I knew the general principle, putting it like this, very simple and clear, pinpoints another issue. I think that a second thing to go is moving a bit down the mouthpiece, without compromising the comfort. If this works, it is possible that some other pieces will start to work better (I'm thinking about the pressure in the low register).
Thanks everyone for contribution to this topic. I think it really helped me. Probably a lesson with Dough will be of great benefit in the near future, after trying to establish the new position. All this with the proper mouthpiece will make a big difference - most likely.
Andrei M.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="andrei"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="293497" time="1769717663" user_id="3642">
To play well in the lower register you must have the air stream directed close to the throat entrance on the mouthpiece. Assuming you are a downstream player (looks like you are), you have so much upper lip in the mouthpiece that it becomes extremely difficult to direct the air that way without moving against your downstream mechanics.
[...][/quote]
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. Although I knew the general principle, putting it like this, very simple and clear, pinpoints another issue. I think that a second thing to go is moving a bit down the mouthpiece, without compromising the comfort. If this works, it is possible that some other pieces will start to work better (I'm thinking about the pressure in the low register).
Thanks everyone for contribution to this topic. I think it really helped me. Probably a lesson with Doug will be of great benefit in the near future, after trying to establish the new position. All this with the proper mouthpiece will make a big difference - most likely.
Andrei M.
</QUOTE>
Shifting the mouthpiece down will probably be counterproductive. Your anchor point is where it is. The benefit you get from what I'm talking about all comes from keeping that same anchor point on your top lip but using a wider cup diameter. No position shift required, at least not of the anchor point you're used to.
Yes, a lesson is a very good idea, before you decide to change up where you place the mouthpiece.
To play well in the lower register you must have the air stream directed close to the throat entrance on the mouthpiece. Assuming you are a downstream player (looks like you are), you have so much upper lip in the mouthpiece that it becomes extremely difficult to direct the air that way without moving against your downstream mechanics.
[...][/quote]
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. Although I knew the general principle, putting it like this, very simple and clear, pinpoints another issue. I think that a second thing to go is moving a bit down the mouthpiece, without compromising the comfort. If this works, it is possible that some other pieces will start to work better (I'm thinking about the pressure in the low register).
Thanks everyone for contribution to this topic. I think it really helped me. Probably a lesson with Doug will be of great benefit in the near future, after trying to establish the new position. All this with the proper mouthpiece will make a big difference - most likely.
Andrei M.
</QUOTE>
Shifting the mouthpiece down will probably be counterproductive. Your anchor point is where it is. The benefit you get from what I'm talking about all comes from keeping that same anchor point on your top lip but using a wider cup diameter. No position shift required, at least not of the anchor point you're used to.
Yes, a lesson is a very good idea, before you decide to change up where you place the mouthpiece.
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="harrisonreed"]Your anchor point is where it is.[/quote]
What is the anchor point? I think Reinhardt called "anchor lip" the lip having the predominance in the mouthpiece. But what would you call the anchor point?
Andrei M.
What is the anchor point? I think Reinhardt called "anchor lip" the lip having the predominance in the mouthpiece. But what would you call the anchor point?
Andrei M.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Reinhardt used that term but I never liked it.
Don't change your placement, I think it's probably fine.
Just do the things I mentioned, especially bringing the middle F and that general range a bit left and closer to where the low F is. That's where you'll find solidity and accuracy for those notes in the staff.
Don't change your placement, I think it's probably fine.
Just do the things I mentioned, especially bringing the middle F and that general range a bit left and closer to where the low F is. That's where you'll find solidity and accuracy for those notes in the staff.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Savio"]I remember long time ago how I managed to get the low notes. Trying and trying. Didn't get it. Then I just tried to glizz down from F to pedal Bb. The clue was not to do so many fancy thing. I was so happy to get my first low Bb. Glizz down was my trick.
There is lots of videos about how to make the high register. Not so many about how to make the low register. But to play with confidence down there I believe we need the same firmness as in any register.
I would recommend playing any melody/tune in the low register to make it stable. And flexibility exercises up and down from your most easy favourite pitch. Maybe F, Bb or maybe even a G or C? We have 7 positions to start from. :good:
Leif[/quote]
I agree that we need the same firmness. When it comes to mouthpiece pressure as discussed in earlier posts (at least for me), less pressure works better. If I compare high C in the treble clef :trebleclef: :space3: with the same note three octaves lower, the sensation on the low note is not that the mouthpiece presses against the lips, but rather the opposite. My lips come together toward the center and protrude more into the mouthpiece.
In the high register, when I play high C, the lips protrude much less and pressure is a bit higher. Corners are firm in both cases. The red part of the lips is as relaxed as they need to be — I mean, they are not clamped together on either of those notes.
/Tom
There is lots of videos about how to make the high register. Not so many about how to make the low register. But to play with confidence down there I believe we need the same firmness as in any register.
I would recommend playing any melody/tune in the low register to make it stable. And flexibility exercises up and down from your most easy favourite pitch. Maybe F, Bb or maybe even a G or C? We have 7 positions to start from. :good:
Leif[/quote]
I agree that we need the same firmness. When it comes to mouthpiece pressure as discussed in earlier posts (at least for me), less pressure works better. If I compare high C in the treble clef :trebleclef: :space3: with the same note three octaves lower, the sensation on the low note is not that the mouthpiece presses against the lips, but rather the opposite. My lips come together toward the center and protrude more into the mouthpiece.
In the high register, when I play high C, the lips protrude much less and pressure is a bit higher. Corners are firm in both cases. The red part of the lips is as relaxed as they need to be — I mean, they are not clamped together on either of those notes.
/Tom
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
In addition to the James Markey exercises that others have posted in this thread, I also create my own exercises that are more rhythmic and melodic in nature.
To train the low register, I construct short exercises based on bass figures I have encountered in the repertoire. These are usually two to three measures long and include figures involving B and/or C. I then play B and C as “fake tones.”
I practice each exercise in at least four keys, so that the lowest notes cover Db, C, B, and Bb. After that, I vary the exercises rhythmically and in different tempi, and I add different articulations such as legato and staccato. My goal is to make the fake tones sound the same as the surrounding notes. The better my fake tones gets the better my normal tones gets. I know some do not see the point with fake tones, and of course you do not need to master them when you have two valves. For me they are usable and also something I use to improve the low register. I started with fake tones in the early 80-ies and for years they did not work that well. It is important you do not do special "trix" to get them. When they become usable it's the same emboushure as on the other notes. If you have to do some special adjustments to get them they will never be usable in real music.
/Tom
To train the low register, I construct short exercises based on bass figures I have encountered in the repertoire. These are usually two to three measures long and include figures involving B and/or C. I then play B and C as “fake tones.”
I practice each exercise in at least four keys, so that the lowest notes cover Db, C, B, and Bb. After that, I vary the exercises rhythmically and in different tempi, and I add different articulations such as legato and staccato. My goal is to make the fake tones sound the same as the surrounding notes. The better my fake tones gets the better my normal tones gets. I know some do not see the point with fake tones, and of course you do not need to master them when you have two valves. For me they are usable and also something I use to improve the low register. I started with fake tones in the early 80-ies and for years they did not work that well. It is important you do not do special "trix" to get them. When they become usable it's the same emboushure as on the other notes. If you have to do some special adjustments to get them they will never be usable in real music.
/Tom
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="andrei"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="293541" time="1769789672" user_id="3642">
Your anchor point is where it is.[/quote]
What is the anchor point? I think Reinhardt called "anchor lip" the lip having the predominance in the mouthpiece. But what would you call the anchor point?
Andrei M.
</QUOTE>
In your case, your upper lip looks like it dominates, and there is a general area on your upper lip where your mouthpiece is "glued" to. The lower lip and jaw do more of the movement, and that upper lip takes more of the load.
I'm of the opinion, which could be wrong for some people, that movement of the lip within the mouthpiece, usually the jaw moving to change the angle of the aperture, is good. Movement of the mouthpiece across the face, especially up down, where the ratio of how much one lip dominates changes, is bad. I could be wrong about that.
So deciding to change how the mouthpiece is placed on your lip is usually bad. It's like a pair of jeans -- there is a place on your hips where the jeans feel right. Are you going to pull your jeans down until your boxers are showing just because the jeans you have are too short in the legs? No, you just buy jeans that fit, and sit at the right point on your hips, and are long enough in the legs.
Your anchor point is where it is.[/quote]
What is the anchor point? I think Reinhardt called "anchor lip" the lip having the predominance in the mouthpiece. But what would you call the anchor point?
Andrei M.
</QUOTE>
In your case, your upper lip looks like it dominates, and there is a general area on your upper lip where your mouthpiece is "glued" to. The lower lip and jaw do more of the movement, and that upper lip takes more of the load.
I'm of the opinion, which could be wrong for some people, that movement of the lip within the mouthpiece, usually the jaw moving to change the angle of the aperture, is good. Movement of the mouthpiece across the face, especially up down, where the ratio of how much one lip dominates changes, is bad. I could be wrong about that.
So deciding to change how the mouthpiece is placed on your lip is usually bad. It's like a pair of jeans -- there is a place on your hips where the jeans feel right. Are you going to pull your jeans down until your boxers are showing just because the jeans you have are too short in the legs? No, you just buy jeans that fit, and sit at the right point on your hips, and are long enough in the legs.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="andrei"]I think Reinhardt called "anchor lip" the lip having the predominance in the mouthpiece. But what would you call the anchor point?[/quote]
Here is what Reinhardt wrote about these terms:
And then a bit later, in his discussion of Type IIIAs (Andrei's type):
I never use these terms in my teaching. If I recall correctly, other than the above discussion (and clarification on each of the different embouchure types), Reinhardt really doesn't get into any more detail about these terms. I also don't fully understand why he would write that IIIAs would find the anchor spot "generally" on the upper lip, since his definition of IIIAs requires the upper lip to predominate.
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Reinhardt used that term but I never liked it.[/quote]
What point do you think he was trying to make with it? Other than the above references I don't really recall those terms being used in other writings or exercises.
[quote="harrisonreed"]I'm of the opinion, which could be wrong for some people, that movement of the lip within the mouthpiece, usually the jaw moving to change the angle of the aperture, is good. Movement of the mouthpiece across the face, especially up down, where the ratio of how much one lip dominates changes, is bad. I could be wrong about that.[/quote]
My thoughts are that the jaw should remain fairly stable when playing and move minimally. The angle of the air stream should probably blow closer to the rim or shank (depending on the register) because of the lip compression and embouchure motion/pivot, not because the jaw is moving around.
[quote="harrisonreed"]So deciding to change how the mouthpiece is placed on your lip is usually bad.[/quote]
In Andrei's case I would agree, I think his placement is probably best where it is. But this is, of course, situational. When I took my first lesson with Doug changing my mouthpiece placement by quite a bit was necessary.
Dave
Here is what Reinhardt wrote about these terms:
The term anchor spot is generally applied to either the upper or the lower lip depending upon the lip which receives the greater area of contact from the rim of the mouthpiece during the playing. The lip which predominates into he mouthpiece cup may also indicate the lip which will serve as the anchor spot.
...
The control point is the term applied to the lip that is accredits with creating the various degrees of embouchure compression. While it is true that both the upper and lower lips must contribute to the all-essential "pinching power" (lip compression), it is also a fact that one lip or the other predominates in this respect and this is called the control point.
And then a bit later, in his discussion of Type IIIAs (Andrei's type):
The anchor spot is generally on the upper lip and the control point on the lower lip.
I never use these terms in my teaching. If I recall correctly, other than the above discussion (and clarification on each of the different embouchure types), Reinhardt really doesn't get into any more detail about these terms. I also don't fully understand why he would write that IIIAs would find the anchor spot "generally" on the upper lip, since his definition of IIIAs requires the upper lip to predominate.
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Reinhardt used that term but I never liked it.[/quote]
What point do you think he was trying to make with it? Other than the above references I don't really recall those terms being used in other writings or exercises.
[quote="harrisonreed"]I'm of the opinion, which could be wrong for some people, that movement of the lip within the mouthpiece, usually the jaw moving to change the angle of the aperture, is good. Movement of the mouthpiece across the face, especially up down, where the ratio of how much one lip dominates changes, is bad. I could be wrong about that.[/quote]
My thoughts are that the jaw should remain fairly stable when playing and move minimally. The angle of the air stream should probably blow closer to the rim or shank (depending on the register) because of the lip compression and embouchure motion/pivot, not because the jaw is moving around.
[quote="harrisonreed"]So deciding to change how the mouthpiece is placed on your lip is usually bad.[/quote]
In Andrei's case I would agree, I think his placement is probably best where it is. But this is, of course, situational. When I took my first lesson with Doug changing my mouthpiece placement by quite a bit was necessary.
Dave
- andrei
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="293579" time="1769845467" user_id="51">
Reinhardt used that term but I never liked it.[/quote]
What point do you think he was trying to make with it? Other than the above references I don't really recall those terms being used in other writings or exercises.
</QUOTE>
I also searched for a clarification on this, but didn't find it. Would be curious if Doug has. I thought it is something similar to what Harrison Reed said, but the terminology is vague, in my opinion.
[quote="Wilktone"]My thoughts are that the jaw should remain fairly stable when playing and move minimally. The angle of the air stream should probably blow closer to the rim or shank (depending on the register) because of the lip compression and embouchure motion/pivot, not because the jaw is moving around.[/quote]
... and sometimes because of the angle of the horn I think. (Am I right?). Or is the horn angle influenced mainly by the teeth? - if you have a clear guidance here, would be curious.
[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="293587" time="1769860165" user_id="3642">
So deciding to change how the mouthpiece is placed on your lip is usually bad.[/quote]
In Andrei's case I would agree, I think his placement is probably best where it is. But this is, of course, situational. When I took my first lesson with Doug changing my mouthpiece placement by quite a bit was necessary.
Dave
</QUOTE>
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Don't change your placement, I think it's probably fine.
Just do the things I mentioned, especially bringing the middle F and that general range a bit left and closer to where the low F is. That's where you'll find solidity and accuracy for those notes in the staff.[/quote]
I think that moving the mouthpiece as I said (a bit to my left and a bit down) is the needed thing. Everything works better (I think even the upper register - but the low register is the concern here). But I'll see in the session with Doug (which I intend to have).
I think that to move the mouthpiece lower for a Very High Placement shouldn't be the right thing to do in general, but there's a context here (in my case). Maybe other time I'll explain it if I find out that I'm right :).
Andrei M.
Reinhardt used that term but I never liked it.[/quote]
What point do you think he was trying to make with it? Other than the above references I don't really recall those terms being used in other writings or exercises.
</QUOTE>
I also searched for a clarification on this, but didn't find it. Would be curious if Doug has. I thought it is something similar to what Harrison Reed said, but the terminology is vague, in my opinion.
[quote="Wilktone"]My thoughts are that the jaw should remain fairly stable when playing and move minimally. The angle of the air stream should probably blow closer to the rim or shank (depending on the register) because of the lip compression and embouchure motion/pivot, not because the jaw is moving around.[/quote]
... and sometimes because of the angle of the horn I think. (Am I right?). Or is the horn angle influenced mainly by the teeth? - if you have a clear guidance here, would be curious.
[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="293587" time="1769860165" user_id="3642">
So deciding to change how the mouthpiece is placed on your lip is usually bad.[/quote]
In Andrei's case I would agree, I think his placement is probably best where it is. But this is, of course, situational. When I took my first lesson with Doug changing my mouthpiece placement by quite a bit was necessary.
Dave
</QUOTE>
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Don't change your placement, I think it's probably fine.
Just do the things I mentioned, especially bringing the middle F and that general range a bit left and closer to where the low F is. That's where you'll find solidity and accuracy for those notes in the staff.[/quote]
I think that moving the mouthpiece as I said (a bit to my left and a bit down) is the needed thing. Everything works better (I think even the upper register - but the low register is the concern here). But I'll see in the session with Doug (which I intend to have).
I think that to move the mouthpiece lower for a Very High Placement shouldn't be the right thing to do in general, but there's a context here (in my case). Maybe other time I'll explain it if I find out that I'm right :).
Andrei M.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
To Illustrate my previous post and since the op
asks for exercises.
I found a set of excerpts I worked on a few years ago. They’re good examples of short patterns to practice. I transpose them through at least four keys, lowering the excerpt until I’ve covered the “fake” tones C and B. The keys are usually D♭, C, B, and B♭. Make your own!
/Tom
asks for exercises.
I found a set of excerpts I worked on a few years ago. They’re good examples of short patterns to practice. I transpose them through at least four keys, lowering the excerpt until I’ve covered the “fake” tones C and B. The keys are usually D♭, C, B, and B♭. Make your own!
/Tom