Getting a nice patina

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-03-14 1:56 p.m.

Hi

All of the horns I own at the moment are raw brass. Some look great with a nice regular patina, others not...

I plan on cleaning those not so good looking horns and then wait for them developping a regular patina.

What can I do to get the patina faster? Puttimg them in....?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-03-14 2:20 p.m.

I wish I knew. I had a 6H with a really beautiful patina, with black inside the bell. I'd love to have another bell like that!

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-03-14 2:30 p.m.

Maybe Bruce will chime in, but I swear reading a suggestion about using ammonia to produce a patina. Not to brush it on, but to allow the ammonia gas to do the work.

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2019-03-14 2:45 p.m.

If you use ammonia make sure you are in a well ventilated area, your lungs don't need a nice black patina.

Oslide · by **Oslide** » 2019-03-14 8:50 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Maybe Bruce will chime in, but I swear reading a suggestion about using ammonia to produce a patina. Not to brush it on, but to allow the ammonia gas to do the work.[/quote]
My memory may be completely wrong, but I believe to have read that ammonia destroys brass...?

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2019-03-14 9:32 p.m.

[quote="Oslide"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="80555" time="1552588239" user_id="2978">
Maybe Bruce will chime in, but I swear reading a suggestion about using ammonia to produce a patina. Not to brush it on, but to allow the ammonia gas to do the work.[/quote]
My memory may be completely wrong, but I believe to have read that ammonia destroys brass...?
</QUOTE>
‘Yes, something about dezincification at grain boundaries.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-03-14 10:35 p.m.

One recipe was mashed boiled eggs in a plastic trash bag with the bell inside the bag.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-03-15 1:31 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]One recipe was mashed boiled eggs in a plastic trash bag with the bell inside the bag.[/quote]

Sounds ugly.... for how much time?

MBurner · by **MBurner** » 2019-03-15 3:21 a.m.

You might laugh, but I’ve had good luck with sweat. What I’ve done is go for a run (I sweat a lot), and then rub the sweat into the raw brass. Make sure you do it thoroughly, or else you’ll get green spots.

Good luck!

Carolus · by **Carolus** » 2019-03-15 4:23 a.m.

Isn't the point with patina that it is authentic? Just let it develop!

davebb · by **davebb** » 2019-03-15 5:39 a.m.

[quote="cozzagiorgi"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="80593" time="1552617300" user_id="104">
One recipe was mashed boiled eggs in a plastic trash bag with the bell inside the bag.[/quote]

Sounds ugly.... for how much time?
</QUOTE>

I haven’t done it with a trombone but it worked overnight on some shiny brass tacks that I wanted to make a duller shade.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2019-03-15 6:59 a.m.

~~[url]~~https://www.sciencecompany.com/-W160.aspx

Better living through chemistry.

Cheers,

Andy

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2019-03-15 9:48 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]~~[url]~~https://www.sciencecompany.com/-W160.aspx

Better living through chemistry.

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

:P

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2019-03-17 4:54 a.m.

There's a chemical in small proportions in Palmolive dish soap that is used by artists who work with brass to create a patina on their pieces. My skin is not acid at all, to the point where I polish my instruments at the contact points rather than making them oxydise, so a natural patina just takes years to develop on my instruments. So I rubbed some Palmolive mixed with just a little bit of water on the surface of the bells with a cloth and sponge, and it creates a patina within minutes. That patina has been looking consistent and doesn't seem to have evolved since (i did it to my modern tenor bell at least 4 or 5 years ago).

PaKETaZ · by **PaKETaZ** » 2019-03-17 7:19 p.m.

Really interesting Maximilien: wish one exactly please? I mean: wish bottle and/or wish Palmolive formula?

Here in France, I should be able to find it!

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2019-03-17 9:37 p.m.

I'm not sure if the European version has that chemical in it though. I remember trying various dish detergents in the Netherlands without getting the effect I had with the North American Palmolive. The source I had found that suggested using Palmolive specified that the sulfur salts were the ingredients causing the patina and one in particular had the most effect, which if I recall correctly was sodium bisulfite.

It gives a relatively bright patina - not dark brown, closer to the colour of the brass but matte. That's the first bell I used it on. Of course it's at your own risk, I'm no chemist.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-03-18 2:43 a.m.

Those horns have exactly the look I am looking for! Will look out for Palmolive :-)

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-03-18 3:57 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]There's a chemical in small proportions in Palmolive dish soap that is used by artists who work with brass to create a patina on their pieces. My skin is not acid at all, to the point where I polish my instruments at the contact points rather than making them oxydise, so a natural patina just takes years to develop on my instruments. So I rubbed some Palmolive mixed with just a little bit of water on the surface of the bells with a cloth and sponge, and it creates a patina within minutes. That patina has been looking consistent and doesn't seem to have evolved since (i did it to my modern tenor bell at least 4 or 5 years ago).[/quote]
Ha! Glad I'm not the only one.

I've been letting the patina on my bass go wild for a year and a half and it essentially looks the same as when I purchased the horn.

I might have to try this on my Rath. I'm not at all a fan of the uneven patina that it developed after letting a friend borrow it.

PaKETaZ · by **PaKETaZ** » 2019-03-18 4:15 a.m.

That’s exactly what I’m looking for too! Thanks for sharing Maximilien.

I have to find something with sulfur salt here in France now...

However, my 10H bell is coprion, wich should give a nice reddish look.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2019-03-18 5:21 a.m.

I should add for those who will try this, make sure you don't pour the Palmolive directly on the instrument. I would put a large amount in a bowl with just a little bit of water mixed in (out should still be thick) and use a cloth to rub it in. The reaction happens fairly quickly, you should make sure to keep the cloth moving and rubbing everywhere and not let the soap stay still anywhere or else you will see the bubbles and droplets shape in the patina. Best to rince away fairly often and start again to best control the result.

[quote="PaKETaZ"]That’s exactly what I’m looking for too! Thanks for sharing Maximilien.

I have to find something with sulfur salt here in France now...

However, my 10H bell is coprion, wich should give a nice reddish look.[/quote]

I'm not sure the same chemicals will give the same type of patina on a pure copper bell. You might want to look up patina recipes for copper.

Ted · by **Ted** » 2019-03-18 5:50 a.m.

And check this post: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6488

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Getting a nice patina