King 6b DG: Removable Leadpipe Options
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Sold my Bach 16, but bought a King 6B DG in yellow brass coming in a couple of days, look forward to something a bit less taxing in a bass bone than my Bach 50 when the occasion allows!
I have read that the 6B has a very open leadpipe, and assuming this aspect is problematic (it might not be), wondering whether 1) removing it and finding a push-in leadpipe will take away the very qualities good about the 6B, and 2) whether such after-market leadpipes even exist?
It seems the bore size of the upper inner slide tube is either an identical.562" for both the Bach 50 and King 6B, or the 6B might be .563," so maybe an after-market Bach 50 leadpipe could work?
I have read that the 6B has a very open leadpipe, and assuming this aspect is problematic (it might not be), wondering whether 1) removing it and finding a push-in leadpipe will take away the very qualities good about the 6B, and 2) whether such after-market leadpipes even exist?
It seems the bore size of the upper inner slide tube is either an identical.562" for both the Bach 50 and King 6B, or the 6B might be .563," so maybe an after-market Bach 50 leadpipe could work?
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
The Duo Gravis leadpipe is a stepped trumpet style setup. There is a small gap between the end of the mouthpiece in the receiver and the start of the leadpipe. Most of the other trombones I've seen have the receiver flow directly into the leadpipe.
Best to try it for a while first. Alan Raph was VERY picky about having it easy to play. I suspect that leadpipe setup is about as air-efficient as you are going to get.
Where did you hear about it being "very open?" Of course, that could have a LOT of meanings. Bob Kraft could get a HUGE sound of of his. Or be bright as Christmas morning.
Maybe just try it for a few months before leaping into changes that might "bring down the house."
Best to try it for a while first. Alan Raph was VERY picky about having it easy to play. I suspect that leadpipe setup is about as air-efficient as you are going to get.
Where did you hear about it being "very open?" Of course, that could have a LOT of meanings. Bob Kraft could get a HUGE sound of of his. Or be bright as Christmas morning.
Maybe just try it for a few months before leaping into changes that might "bring down the house."
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Open is the wrong word, large diameter such that your mouthpiece shank goes in farther is better
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've had my DG for a couple of months. I like the sound and blow just the way it is. The one thing I don't like is the lever situation. I'm scheduled to send it to Sweeney next month to convert it to an independent DG. Scott seemed excited to make the conversion. I'm amped to see what he does with it.
You're right, the receiver is slightly bigger than normal. If you use DE mouthpieces, he can give you a shank to fit.
I'd wait till you get to play the horn for a couple weeks to decide on changing it. Hope you enjoy it, though.
You're right, the receiver is slightly bigger than normal. If you use DE mouthpieces, he can give you a shank to fit.
I'd wait till you get to play the horn for a couple weeks to decide on changing it. Hope you enjoy it, though.
- Chazzer69
- Posts: 296
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
[quote="JTeagarden"]Open it wrong word, large diameter suxh that your mouthpiece shank goes in farther is better[/quote]
If that's your concern, you might consider a long shank Schilke 58 or 59 if you can find one. Maybe that will work?
If that's your concern, you might consider a long shank Schilke 58 or 59 if you can find one. Maybe that will work?
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
[quote="hyperbolica"]I've had my DG for a couple of months. I like the sound and blow just the way it is. The one thing I don't like is the lever situation. I'm scheduled to send it to Sweeney next month to convert it to an independent DG. Scott seemed excited to make the conversion. I'm amped to see what he does with it.[/quote]
Yes, I might send it to Scott as well, he did such a fabulous job on my Bach 42
Yes, I might send it to Scott as well, he did such a fabulous job on my Bach 42
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Scott Sweeney is one of the GOATs.
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Yeah, if it's mouthpiece fit that concerns you, keep in mind this IS a kinda different setup.
1) if your mouthpiece wobbles in the receiver, take the advice to chat with Doug Elliot.
2) if there is NO gap between the edge of the MP and ledge at the end of the receiver, refer to #1
(straighten a paperclip; bend a 1/8" angle at the end; run it GENTLY through the MP throat
with the MP in the receiver... you should feel a little thunk, then get caught on the leadpipe.)
3) if the mouthpiece goes in farther than you are used to but does NOT wobble, check out minute 1:05 in this link:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNgZ1TK0h8Y
George McCracken designed the Duo Gravis for Alan Raph. Look at how Alan's Bach 1 1/2G fits in the receiver.
Again, it IS a kinda different setup.
It IS possible someone reamed the receiver too deeply (lots of hand work in horns of this era.)
Not easy or cheap to fix by changing the horn.
Lots of teflon tape and Elliot references to solutions on the old Forum and here in Trombone Chat.
Spend a big chunk of time playing it before spending money.
It may be working as designed.
1) if your mouthpiece wobbles in the receiver, take the advice to chat with Doug Elliot.
2) if there is NO gap between the edge of the MP and ledge at the end of the receiver, refer to #1
(straighten a paperclip; bend a 1/8" angle at the end; run it GENTLY through the MP throat
with the MP in the receiver... you should feel a little thunk, then get caught on the leadpipe.)
3) if the mouthpiece goes in farther than you are used to but does NOT wobble, check out minute 1:05 in this link:
George McCracken designed the Duo Gravis for Alan Raph. Look at how Alan's Bach 1 1/2G fits in the receiver.
Again, it IS a kinda different setup.
It IS possible someone reamed the receiver too deeply (lots of hand work in horns of this era.)
Not easy or cheap to fix by changing the horn.
Lots of teflon tape and Elliot references to solutions on the old Forum and here in Trombone Chat.
Spend a big chunk of time playing it before spending money.
It may be working as designed.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Chazzer69"]<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="293054" time="1769128402" user_id="19182">
Open it wrong word, large diameter suxh that your mouthpiece shank goes in farther is better[/quote]
If that's your concern, you might consider a long shank Schilke 58 or 59 if you can find one. Maybe that will work?
</QUOTE>
Those don't work well with a DG. As others have said, it was designed with a Bach 1 1/2 in mind.
I wouldn't mess with something as fundamental as the leadpipe. It's very much a coherent design, so if it doesn't work for you, you probably want a different horn.
Of my selection, I find a Rath 1 1/2 seems to fit well.
Open it wrong word, large diameter suxh that your mouthpiece shank goes in farther is better[/quote]
If that's your concern, you might consider a long shank Schilke 58 or 59 if you can find one. Maybe that will work?
</QUOTE>
Those don't work well with a DG. As others have said, it was designed with a Bach 1 1/2 in mind.
I wouldn't mess with something as fundamental as the leadpipe. It's very much a coherent design, so if it doesn't work for you, you probably want a different horn.
Of my selection, I find a Rath 1 1/2 seems to fit well.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
I appreciate all the input, seems like best to see how to make it work "as is," I know these Kings were through-designed, not borrowing parts from other models.
I'll try to adjust myself first, I've held on to a bunch of bass mouthpieces for the sake of seeing if the new bass (now the 6B) seems to prefer something I have.
I'll try to adjust myself first, I've held on to a bunch of bass mouthpieces for the sake of seeing if the new bass (now the 6B) seems to prefer something I have.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Wasn't the <I>King 29</I> mouthpiece supplied with King bass trombones?
I don't have one any longer, but as I recall, its cup and throat were somewhat smaller than a Bach 1½G, but the cup had a deeper funnel shape, and the shank was "oversize" compared to a standard large-shank (to fit the King receiver/leadpipe perfectly). Part of the original "through-design?"
You may have a hard time finding one of these rarities.
I don't have one any longer, but as I recall, its cup and throat were somewhat smaller than a Bach 1½G, but the cup had a deeper funnel shape, and the shank was "oversize" compared to a standard large-shank (to fit the King receiver/leadpipe perfectly). Part of the original "through-design?"
You may have a hard time finding one of these rarities.
- RichC
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Wasn't the <I>King 29</I> mouthpiece supplied with King bass trombones?
I don't have one any longer, but as I recall, its cup and throat were slightly smaller than a Bach 1½G, but the cup had a deeper funnel shape, and the shank was "oversize" compared to a standard large-shank (to fit the King receiver/leadpipe perfectly). Part of the original "through-design?"
You may have hard time finding one of these rarities.[/quote]
I still have one. Definitely much smaller than a 1 1/2. But the shank does fit nicely.
I don't have one any longer, but as I recall, its cup and throat were slightly smaller than a Bach 1½G, but the cup had a deeper funnel shape, and the shank was "oversize" compared to a standard large-shank (to fit the King receiver/leadpipe perfectly). Part of the original "through-design?"
You may have hard time finding one of these rarities.[/quote]
I still have one. Definitely much smaller than a 1 1/2. But the shank does fit nicely.
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Wasn't the <I>King 29</I> mouthpiece supplied with King bass trombones?
I don't have one any longer, but as I recall, its cup and throat were somewhat smaller than a Bach 1½G, but the cup had a deeper funnel shape, and the shank was "oversize" compared to a standard large-shank (to fit the King receiver/leadpipe perfectly). Part of the original "through-design?"
You may have a hard time finding one of these rarities.[/quote]
Regardless of what King shipped, McCracken did the design work, and Raph did the testing, with a 1 1/2G.
I really enjoyed using a Rath wide rim 1 1/2G (I believe Chris Stearn had a hand in designing that...)
I've heard good results up and down a ways from that size.
I have not heard many good results with much larger mouthpieces.
I suspect those WOULD work, but would require a lot more work.
Running through your collection seems like a good idea to me.
A slow amble sounds like an even better idea.
When I was auditioning mouthpieces on the DG I found it took weeks to get past "honeymoon" periods
Enjoy the walk :)
I don't have one any longer, but as I recall, its cup and throat were somewhat smaller than a Bach 1½G, but the cup had a deeper funnel shape, and the shank was "oversize" compared to a standard large-shank (to fit the King receiver/leadpipe perfectly). Part of the original "through-design?"
You may have a hard time finding one of these rarities.[/quote]
Regardless of what King shipped, McCracken did the design work, and Raph did the testing, with a 1 1/2G.
I really enjoyed using a Rath wide rim 1 1/2G (I believe Chris Stearn had a hand in designing that...)
I've heard good results up and down a ways from that size.
I have not heard many good results with much larger mouthpieces.
I suspect those WOULD work, but would require a lot more work.
Running through your collection seems like a good idea to me.
A slow amble sounds like an even better idea.
When I was auditioning mouthpieces on the DG I found it took weeks to get past "honeymoon" periods
Enjoy the walk :)
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
When I played a Duo Gravis I used a custom Stork mouthpiece and it fit into the pipe just fine. Doug Elliott has something that I'm SURE will fit into the pipe properly if you cannot settle on something. And as others have stated Alan used a 1 and 1/2G on it. If fact Alan used a 1 and 1/2G on everything!
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
The DG arrived, and there are pinholes in the slide crook:
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_3794.png" index="0">[attachment=0]IMG_3794.png</ATTACHMENT>
And the intonation is wonky, I assume these pinholes are part of the reason?
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_3794.png" index="0">
And the intonation is wonky, I assume these pinholes are part of the reason?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Intonation on mine is actually very good - fewer quirks than my other vintage bones. The holes may be causing that, depending on the nature and severity of the intonation problems.
Good catch on the pinholes. I've played horns with little patches here and there, and that's probably the way to fix that. Aside from a custom fab, I'm not sure how you'd get a new DG crook.
Best of luck with it.
Good catch on the pinholes. I've played horns with little patches here and there, and that's probably the way to fix that. Aside from a custom fab, I'm not sure how you'd get a new DG crook.
Best of luck with it.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
I discovered when it arrived that this was a school horn, given the lettering on the case, this might be a good horn to walk away from, and wait for another one to come up for sale.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Then again:
Paired with a Rath 1.25 w mouthpiece, it’s so easy to go up and down this horn.
What do you guys think about keeping the lead pipe, but changing out the valves to double independent instrument innovations Rotary valves?
Paired with a Rath 1.25 w mouthpiece, it’s so easy to go up and down this horn.
What do you guys think about keeping the lead pipe, but changing out the valves to double independent instrument innovations Rotary valves?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Changing the leadpipe is one thing, especially if you can keep the original like I did. But if you want a modern horn just buy one. King made perfect trombones for their intended purpose, and they are nothing like other horns on the market. It seems like you've hardly used it yet. Get it patched up, if you can save the original pipe make it a press-fit. Otherwise keep as is.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
I definitely want the leadpipe, it’s just that the upper inner slide tubes seems like it may need to be replaced, and if it does, my experience with brass techs is that they can sometimes save the leadpipe, or the slide tube, but often one of the other bites the dust, and if the lead pipe bites the dust, I’m not sure if there is a way to replace it with something like the original one
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
If possible, I will limit the work to splitting the triggers, and straightening out the slide with as many of the original parts as possible.
Given that, at first glance (purely based on the dimensions and and weight of the horn), you would not imagine it would play so differently from a Bach 50), and yet it does, it would seem that keeping it as original as possible will be critical to retaining is unique qualities!
Given that, at first glance (purely based on the dimensions and and weight of the horn), you would not imagine it would play so differently from a Bach 50), and yet it does, it would seem that keeping it as original as possible will be critical to retaining is unique qualities!
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="JTeagarden"]Then again:
Paired with a Rath 1.25 w mouthpiece, it’s so easy to go up and down this horn.
What do you guys think about keeping the lead pipe, but changing out the valves to double independent instrument innovations Rotary valves?[/quote]
Please don't. It'll be a waste of time and by the time you're done spending $$$$$$ on all of that you could buy a new horn. Unless there's something wrong with that particular Duo Gravis those valves are killin'
Paired with a Rath 1.25 w mouthpiece, it’s so easy to go up and down this horn.
What do you guys think about keeping the lead pipe, but changing out the valves to double independent instrument innovations Rotary valves?[/quote]
Please don't. It'll be a waste of time and by the time you're done spending $$$$$$ on all of that you could buy a new horn. Unless there's something wrong with that particular Duo Gravis those valves are killin'
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Yep, going to use a light touch, it really plays great, but for lousy paddles and slide needing some work: keep the original vales and leadpipe
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="JTeagarden"]Yep, going to use a light touch, it really plays great, but for lousy paddles and slide needing some work: keep the original vales and leadpipe[/quote]
Couldn't agree more about those paddles!!!! Change 'em!
Couldn't agree more about those paddles!!!! Change 'em!
- bassboneman69
- Posts: 290
- Joined: Aug 15, 2018
Is there “lore” that the King 7B and 6B had the lead pipes switched during manufacturing?
Or
Am I imagining this?
Or
Am I imagining this?
- bassboneman69
- Posts: 290
- Joined: Aug 15, 2018
Is there “lore” that the King 7B and 6B had the lead pipes switched during manufacturing?
Or
Am I imagining this?
Or
Am I imagining this?
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JTeagarden"]What do you guys think about keeping the lead pipe, but changing out the valves to double independent instrument innovations Rotary valves?[/quote]
I often thought about doing that when I was still in the midst of my several-year long Duo Gravis odyssey. Those seemed like the obvious choice as they have an offering that would allow preservation of the somewhat unique design characteristic of the valve section bore staying at .562
I often thought about doing that when I was still in the midst of my several-year long Duo Gravis odyssey. Those seemed like the obvious choice as they have an offering that would allow preservation of the somewhat unique design characteristic of the valve section bore staying at .562
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
The horn is the bomb in terms of response and sound, so I definitely DON'T want to mess with its components very much, looking at it and lifting it would make you think it would be even more work than the Bach 50, but it's a very different animal, it hangs together "as is" really well, and I don't need a third lung to play it.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="bassboneman69"]Is there “lore” that the King 7B and 6B had the lead pipes switched during manufacturing?
Or
Am I imagining this?[/quote]
The lore was that the 7B and 8B were switched. The 6B/duo gravis predates those models.
Cheers,
Andy
Or
Am I imagining this?[/quote]
The lore was that the 7B and 8B were switched. The 6B/duo gravis predates those models.
Cheers,
Andy
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="JTeagarden"]Then again:
Paired with a Rath 1.25 w mouthpiece, it’s so easy to go up and down this horn.
What do you guys think about keeping the lead pipe, but changing out the valves to double independent instrument innovations Rotary valves?[/quote]
McCracken worked the bell taper pretty carefully from the big end right back to the F valve.
If you measure the ends of the pipe by your neck you'll find a careful taper.
If you find a way to measure the inner diameter of the main tuning slide tubes you'll find that THEY taper INSIDE as well (there are, or at least have been, other makers who did this.)
Adding an inline valve will not make it play like a 7B.
But it WILL make it NOT play like a Duo Gravis.
Getting simple patches over the pin holes should make it blow and tune better.
Congrats on the "new" horn!
BTW: I just noticed that my link to Alan Raph's mouthpiece got lost in the posting. It's about 1:02 into his Youtube video on "low notes."
Paired with a Rath 1.25 w mouthpiece, it’s so easy to go up and down this horn.
What do you guys think about keeping the lead pipe, but changing out the valves to double independent instrument innovations Rotary valves?[/quote]
McCracken worked the bell taper pretty carefully from the big end right back to the F valve.
If you measure the ends of the pipe by your neck you'll find a careful taper.
If you find a way to measure the inner diameter of the main tuning slide tubes you'll find that THEY taper INSIDE as well (there are, or at least have been, other makers who did this.)
Adding an inline valve will not make it play like a 7B.
But it WILL make it NOT play like a Duo Gravis.
Getting simple patches over the pin holes should make it blow and tune better.
Congrats on the "new" horn!
BTW: I just noticed that my link to Alan Raph's mouthpiece got lost in the posting. It's about 1:02 into his Youtube video on "low notes."