Bass Trombone Sound?

trombinstharry · by **trombinstharry** » 2019-03-28 11:18 p.m.

Hello all, I believe I have made a thread about this before but I didn't really know how to word what I was asking. Let's say there is a jazz bass bonist and a classical bassist, but about to perform a bass trombone feature piece in wherever they perform. What does the jazz basser look for in his sound, and what does the classical bass trombonist look for? Not so much technique, but just tone in general. And, who are some good jazz bass trombonists to listen to? And classical? Thank you

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-03-29 12:38 a.m.

Bass Trombone should have a deeper, fuller sound than a tenor trombone. Both in jazz and in classical.

The "classic" bass trombone sound in a Jazz Band is often the one by George Roberts. You may also want to listen to our friend Savio (Leif) who has a wonderful bass trombone sound.

Classical bass trombonists you can easily find to listen to: Doug Yeo, Gerry Pagano.

And Alan Raph, who is just a superb bass trombonist in any genre.

Of course there are many more and I hope you will hear some more suggestions.

Carolus · by **Carolus** » 2019-03-29 7:13 a.m.

Also check out Massimo Pirone. Amazing player, both on bass and tenor. Very active on FB and some of his stuff is also available on Spotify.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-03-29 10:27 a.m.

I just had this discussion/disagreement with fellow bass bone player. He thinks a bass bone should only be played with one big symphonies sound no matter what the setting.

Here's my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. when I'm playing with a symphony band, concert band, of smaller brass group I strive for a bigger/rounder "pillowy" sound. No sharp edges. When I'm playing bass in a big band I go for a centered more focused and penetrating sound. First because I need to blend with the rest of the section. Second, because there are so many juicy little bits in the bass book that really need to be heard with some presence.

The only time I vary from the focused bigband sound is when playing a featured solo. Then I play with a sound somewhere in between the two ala George Roberts.

Like I said, just my humble opinion.

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2019-03-29 11:00 a.m.

Jazz sound: Bill Reichenbach

Classical sound: Pete Norton

Thus endeth the lesson. ;)

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-03-29 11:18 a.m.

jazz: Max Seigel, George Roberts, Dave Taylor, Bill Reichenbach, Jeff Cortazzo

classical: Ben vanDijk, Brian Hecht, Gerry Pagano, Charlie Vernon

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2019-03-29 11:26 a.m.

Just play!

Your sound is your sound!!!

Yes you should listen the EVERYONE to get a general "sound" idea, but you will never sound like Messers Roberts or Kleinhammer!!

Savio · 2019-03-29 12:23 p.m.

Thanks Bruce for the nice words, but I believe its wise to listen somebody else. I agree with Boneartz.

I'm not sure but I dont think there is that much difference between jazz and classical sound? I listen to everyone and cant say there is one classical sound and one jazz sound. Its only the style thats different. Tenor trombone might be another story but bass is bass.

Nearly all pro players have a nice sound. I get inspired from many but mostly Mr. Roberts. Remember; ~~[size=150]~~Everyone have their own sound, listen all and get some ideas. Lately I listen a lot to Toby Oft and his bordogni etudes. And I try to get my bass to sing in the same way. Its not easy but listening him inspire me to keep on trying.

I think there is one thing thats very important. Try to make the sound clear and focused.

Leif

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2019-03-29 12:39 p.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]

I just had this discussion/disagreement with fellow bass bone player. He thinks a bass bone should only be played with one big symphonies sound no matter what the setting.

[/quote]

There's a smaller tonal gap between a .562 bass and a .547 tenor, but bigger with .500 tenor. So it stands to reason that the bass tbn in a jazz setting should have more in common with the more focused sound of the tenors.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2019-03-29 2:37 p.m.

The only real difference I go for to contrast between big band and classical is I'm more aggressive in a big band setting with my attacks but back off after, whereas in an orchestra I tend to be a bit more reserved with my attacks, but sustain the sound slightly longer.

Hard to explain in writing...

Eric

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-03-29 3:30 p.m.

[quote="Bonearzt"]The only real difference I go for to contrast between big band and classical is I'm more aggressive in a big band setting with my attacks but back off after, whereas in an orchestra I tend to be a bit more reserved with my attacks, but sustain the sound slightly longer.

Hard to explain in writing...

Eric[/quote]

Thats kind of bang on. In a big band I tend to force the rest of the group to play up to me, rather than be drowned out. No ones ever asked me for less, so i guess its an ok way to go. As a punishment, whoever is in charge of what charts were playing tends to try to wear me out with back to back to back crazy bass bone parts. Not that im complaining <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-03-29 5:54 p.m.

I am no expert on bass trombone playing, but in my experience the major difference between big band and orchestral bass trombone is about style and articulation, not actual "sound," and the same goes for equipment. There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.

Gary · by **Gary** » 2019-03-29 6:23 p.m.

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong, but are you asking about both people playing together in a JAZZ context?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-03-29 7:18 p.m.

Yeah, for a jazz context I'd choose lighter equipment with more Bark, brighter articulation. For orchestra a little more weighty. For chamber groups more nimble with some personality.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-03-29 7:22 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.[/quote]

Doug, I dont exactly agree. And Im sure you have a lot of experience with bass players. :good: Isn't it so that a small mouthpiece can sound unfocused because it doesn't fit that player. Some sounds really big on it. Some players can sound small on a big mouthpiece ? Mouthpiece have to fit the player? And yes, its a lot about style and articulation. Its a lot about what sound we have in our head too. Even if we all have a kind of "finger print" in our sound we need to have a goal. But dont you all agree we have to get the right equipment? Big or small is both right if it fits and get us closer to our goal?

Charlie Vernon sounds very focused and clear in my ears. So also symphony players need that focus in their sound.

You have much more experience Doug, so I hope its OK I just ask?

Leif

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-03-29 9:16 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="81805" time="1553896486" user_id="51">
There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.[/quote]

Doug, I dont exactly agree. And Im sure you have a lot of experience with bass players. :good: Isn't it so that a small mouthpiece can sound unfocused because it doesn't fit that player. Some sounds really big on it. Some players can sound small on a big mouthpiece ? Mouthpiece have to fit the player? And yes, its a lot about style and articulation. Its a lot about what sound we have in our head too. Even if we all have a kind of "finger print" in our sound we need to have a goal. But dont you all agree we have to get the right equipment? Big or small is both right if it fits and get us closer to our goal?

Charlie Vernon sounds very focused and clear in my ears. So also symphony players need that focus in their sound.

You have much more experience Doug, so I hope its OK I just ask?

Leif
</QUOTE>
Maybe I was generalizing a little too much. But the whole point of this thread is about what sound works in different situations, not about matching equipment to the player, which of course is important.

Yes, professionals like Charlie can sound very focused (and big) on huge equipment. But that's really exactly my point - i'm pretty sure Charlie doesn't do any big band playing, but if he did, his sound would fit right in and I doubt anyone would ask him to change it.

But can he swing?

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-03-29 11:16 p.m.

But can he swing?

Maybe he can? This is not swing but still.........

~~[url]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJxb6n-hoUQ

Amazing isn't it!

To the OP, you dont need one equipment for big band and one for classic. You just change the way you play.

Leif

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2019-03-30 10:41 a.m.

Style and articulation... change the way you play... yep. Equipment can help with basic tone quality (middle of the note) and feedback, but it won’t make the changes needed to play in an appropriate style.

jthomas105 · by **jthomas105** » 2019-03-30 4:25 p.m.

How about this from Edward Kleinhammer and the CSO trombone section recording in 1967...

Jay Friedman, Glenn Dodson, Frank Crisafulli and Edward Kleinhammer

<YOUTUBE id="x8iC0U1l7ys">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iC0U1l7ys</YOUTUBE>

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2019-04-01 5:17 p.m.

There isn't even one orchestral sound: French/English vs Middle-European, then American. Schubert vs Strauss. Etc, etc. Some of us feel that the "darker than a black hole at night" approach has reached its limits. And, come to think of it, even big bands have different period styles.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2019-04-02 12:22 p.m.

Isn’t this just a matter of being an intelligent musician?

As noted above, pros with a *specific* job tailor their equipment to that job. Because of course they do. But what about pros with a non-specific job? George Roberts played for Stravinsky and Kenton with the same setup. So he changed the sound by making intelligent musical choices.

Bass trombone is all about knowing YOUR role in a particular piece of music. Are you directional reinforcement for the tuba and basses? Are you rounding out a bari sax? Are you the bottom of a trombone choir? Studying the music around you will help you make the right sound on any horn.

BUT, also make intelligent choices for your surroundings. A commercial or big band player may choose a smaller mouthpiece or a smaller horn than a classical player, simply because those gigs involve a lot more playing. Or they might not (I don’t).

Worry about your function within a given piece of music, and then play to that function. The horn will largely take care of itself.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-04-03 12:45 p.m.

I'm a doubler and play mostly 1st, 2nd and 4th parts in a big band. The bass trombone player should choose equipment that blends with the rest of the section or equipment that makes him stand out as his own section. This is the two categories of basstrombone players I meet in jazz/pop. In some music the bass trombone part does his own thing. A lot of modern pop and rock arrangements are like that. In an old Basie-style band the bass part plays with the tenors. Use the sound that fits the picture.

In classical music the bass trombone sound should match the other two trombone players. If first scales down then second and third should scale down too. It is not one sound for jazz and one for classical, it is many different sounds that need to be produced. It is a reason professionals have more than one tenor trombone and more than one bass trombone.

/Tom

ALT · by **ALT** » 2019-04-04 8:10 p.m.

I think it’s good to share our own perspective as trombone players on what it means to play with a ‘bass trombone sound’, but, also important to ask non-trombone players. In my experience for big bands:

- Bari sax players I’ve spoken with dig bass bone players who play with excellent intonation.

- Drummers/double bass players dig bass bone players who play with excellent time and feel.

I’m not negating the importance of sound, but, I think I’d prioritise working with the bass bone player who plays better time and style, than the bass bone player with a ‘better’ sound and a wonky time feel.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-04-06 2:04 p.m.

I like to play a horn that is easy to blend with the other horns, in orchestra a horn with more phat in bigband a more slender, if I am solo I like my Bach 45. Edward played absolutely wonderful in that record! A big beautiful sound, but for me I like a somewhat smaller sound if the tenors are playing 500 bore horns.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-04-07 9:32 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]I like to play a horn that is easy to blend with the other horns, in orchestra a horn with more phat in bigband a more slender, if I am solo I like my Bach 45. Edward played absolutely wonderful in that record! A big beautiful sound, but for me I like a somewhat smaller sound if the tenors are playing 500 bore horns.[/quote]

I collected a Mnt Vernon 45B with 9" bell and a Bach 50 slide. A fantastic versatile horn. No other bass trombone I've ever played comes close to this one. I have put my 12M Hammond in the receiver and it feels like a larger tenor, like a 42, but bigger. With a Hammond 20BL it becames a good bass, but small. The only other bass I have that behaves like this is my double valved Martin bass with .535 slide. It can also be used as either a tenor or a bass. The difference is the Bach 45B is a much better trombone both as a tenor and a bass. I'm thinking of the 45B as an alternative to my 42B. Maybe I bring this horn as an extra next time we meet to play quartets.

/Tom

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-04-07 9:46 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]I like to play a horn that is easy to blend with the other horns, in orchestra a horn with more phat in bigband a more slender, if I am solo I like my Bach 45. Edward played absolutely wonderful in that record! A big beautiful sound, but for me I like a somewhat smaller sound if the tenors are playing 500 bore horns.[/quote]

I collected a Mnt Vernon 45B with 9" bell and a Bach 50 slide. A fantastic versatile horn. No other bass trombone I've ever played comes close to this one. I have put my 12M Hammond in the receiver and it feels like a larger tenor, like a 42, but bigger. With a Hammond 20BL it becames a good bass, but small. The only other bass I have that behaves like this is my double valveed Martin bass with .535 slide. It can also be used as either a tenor or a bass. The difference is the Bach 45B is a much better trombone both as a tenor and a bass. I'm thinking of the 45B as an alternative to my 42B. Maybe I bring this horn as an extra next time we meet to play quartets.

/Tom

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-19 6:38 p.m.

Can we all agree George Roberts could fit his sound anywhere? Doug Yeo played in a big band. Randy Hawes, I believe, played in one of the ghost bands. Good sound is close to the same no matter where you are playing.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2019-08-19 10:29 p.m.

I'll echo Doug's sentiment:

But can they swing?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-08-20 12:16 a.m.

And I'll echo ALT's comment:
[quote="ALT"]- Bari sax players I’ve spoken with dig bass bone players who play with excellent intonation.

- Drummers/double bass players dig bass bone players who play with excellent time and feel.[/quote]

You can't go wrong with excellent intonation and time feel.

Both are FAR more important than "sound."

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-08-20 4:39 a.m.

I do articulate different for different situations. That makes the sound different. I can, and have done thusends of times, used the same equipment in bigband and symphony orchestra with great sucses.

But, i do prefer to use differns horns, today many basstrombonists in bigband use a biger sound than I would.

I like to blend with two (or thre) tenor 547 bore and a very big CCtuba when needed, and on the other side of the coin to blend with thre 500 bore with small mouthpieces and sound like we are a unit.

I am very much awere that there are other viuwpoints, and that can sound good (enough) I just saing what I try to do.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-20 6:15 a.m.

I go with the consensus that a good sound is a good sound and it can fit anywhere. Easier in the UK where the desired sound in different settings is pretty much the same... only the style changes.

Chris

Savio · 2019-08-20 6:30 p.m.

I have written lots of stupid things about sound before, :shuffle: both here and the old forum. Maybe its just boiling down to have a goal to stretch for? Something to aim against? Each instrument group has their own character and so have the trombone. I hope we never loose that character sound because of other aspects like fast, loud, big register, etc. Sound and musicianship is the essence for me.

Anyway, this is what I try to do;

~~[url]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5pW4znMhSA

~~[url]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl3CgvmS6bw

Leif

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-08-20 6:40 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]I go with the consensus that a good sound is a good sound and it can fit anywhere. Easier in the UK where the desired sound in different settings is pretty much the same... only the style changes.

Chris[/quote]

Is the desired sound from a bass tromboneplayer the same in classical and jazz in UK?

Here some refer to a jazz bass trombone sound as a commercial sound. A sound that sits in the wall on the other side of the room A sound that projects well but is not at all huge and massive but yet very present and can easy be heard without being to loud, like the sound of GR. The ideal classical bass trombone sound seams to be more body and not the same color, not the same spectra. There are bass trombone players who play with that huge sound in jazz too, but to me their huge sound is not as effective as the more focused and distinct sound in a big band setting. Especially in unison with small tenors in the middle and upper register the huge bass trombone sound takes over and cover the small bore trombones. In those situations the bass trombone player must back off a bit and let the tenors do what they do best. A smaller bass sound fits that better. There is a trend to play with a bigger bass trombone sound in jazz which I think is sad. The solution could be to bring that lighter sound to the classical music. I would like more of that Raymond Premru sound into classical bass trombone playing. That is as good as it gets. What I think <EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>

/Tom

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2019-08-20 7:07 p.m.

Some sections have smaller horns near .500 on all the parts except bass. In that kind of section the wrong bass can sound really woofy.

But does anybody care?

In the more typical section, with several sizes, sound concepts, jazz styles, eighth note interpretations on the top parts, how could it matter what happens in the bass? Not even I care then...

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-08-20 10:38 p.m.

I think it's probably not possible to play "woofy" with good time feel and appropriate articulation in a big band.

If you can tell that it's woofy, it's late - and THAT's the real problem. Or the notes are too long.

Fix the style and the sound will fix itself by necessity.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2019-08-21 12:47 a.m.

In any genre, a good bass trombone sound is one that is (a) pleasing and (b) audible. Pleasing is hard, so lots of players don't bother with audible. This goes for the components of the sound too- making a good articulation is hard, which is why we have so many woofers.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-21 1:54 a.m.

I started playing in a local college big band. I haven’t been a member of a jazz band since college 35 years ago. My focus has been orchestral playing. The college puts on a jazz festival in the winter that all the heavy hitters go to. Roosevelt H.S. (Won Essentially Ellington this year), Mt. Si H.S. and Garfield H.S. run by Clarence Acox (His bands have won E.E. like five times). The college band plays a set during the finals with the winning bands. At the end of the concert, Mr. Acox came up to me and complimented me on my sound. I didn’t do anything different playing with the big band then I would do playing with the Symphony; play with proper ensemble, clean articulations, good sound and time.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-21 2:42 a.m.

In the UK there has been a pretty constant sound concept for bass for over 50 years.... what many would call classic bass. In recent times a more spread sound with far less front has become more popular.in some orchestral circles...... a very sad development in my opinion .

Chris

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-08-21 12:55 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]In the UK there has been a pretty constant sound concept for bass for over 50 years.... what many would call classic bass. In recent times a more spread sound with far less front has become more popular.in some orchestral circles...... a very sad development in my opinion .

Chris[/quote]

Thank you. I did not know how to make myself clear. That's exactly what I meant in my post; "a more spread sound with far less front" is what the modern bass sound has become. It is not something I like. That kind of sound is hard to lock into as a tenor player in a big band section. What's then spread to the sides does not contain the colors I need. I need less of the fundamental and more of the corona if I'm on first.

/Tom

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-08-21 8:01 p.m.

I've been reading this thread it's great interest. Although I have a strong background in big band section playing, it was always on a small bore horn playing the upper books. Now that I've transitioned to bass full time I have found I have to work hard at getting that smaller and more penetrating sound we talk about. It's very easy to let it mushroom out sideways!

What is helping me immensely is playing along with GR recordings and working to match his sound. Give me another 20 years and I'll have it down pat!

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2019-08-21 9:12 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I think it's probably not possible to play "woofy" with good time feel and appropriate articulation in a big band.

If you can tell that it's woofy, it's late - and THAT's the real problem. Or the notes are too long.

Fix the style and the sound will fix itself by necessity.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure if it was a time thing that's what I would have said. A too-big horn with few overtones is pretty bloody obvious, like a tuba sound in the section (check Kenton bands with and without tuba), no matter how well played. So I will agree to disagree.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2019-08-21 9:16 p.m.

I couldn't agree more with "Fossil's" appraisal of the bass trombone sound that has become prominent these days. I think it might be useful to convene a gathering where the terms : dark, spread,centered,bright,front, focused --- where the plethora of terms that we have used over so many years could be discussed and agreed to as to their most descriptive purpose --- and then go forward with those descriptive terms as definitive terms. I argued with another bass trombonist for years over the characteristics of playing a conical instrument like a euphonium in contrast to a predominately cylindrical instrument like a trombone, only to find out that be totally agreed, but were using contradictory terminology ! What a difference that would make ! I think that same misunderstanding still is in play, to the detriment of an unfettered progression of our art. Talk to your colleagues ----

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-08-21 9:58 p.m.

Better yet, why don't you post links to recordings that you like or don't like. That would be more concrete.

imsevimse · 2019-08-22 2:52 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Better yet, why don't you post links to recordings that you like or don't like. That would be more concrete.[/quote]
If you are interested what I think you can search these players.

I give two examples of well known bass trombone players who have very different kind of sounds. Both are good and very well respected. One of them with a sound I don't like as much and the other with a sound I could die for. The two are Ben van Dijk and Raymond Premru. You have to find recordings with listen them and make up your mind. They sound completely different. Some will agree with me, some may not hear the difference and some will disagree.

/Tom

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-08-22 2:13 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]The two are Ben van Dijk and Raymond Premru. You have to find recordings with listen them and make up your mind.

/Tom[/quote]

Ok, thanks. Yeah, I get that difference. Premru to me is very trombony and van Dijk has a big warm fuzzy sound. Honestly, I love both sounds. I have two bass bones that lean each way. My "small bass" is brighter, more trombony, and my Kanstul leans toward the fuzzy, I think there are times for each.

Van Dijk is an incredible musician <YOUTUBE id="jiwZBlegRWw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiwZBlegRWw</YOUTUBE> It's really hard to criticize that.

It was harder to find Premru playing alone. He's done so much composing. <YOUTUBE id="3ikbm5x_724" t="273">https://youtu.be/3ikbm5x_724?t=273</YOUTUBE> Very trombone-like sound. Classic textbook to me.

I think by default I lean toward preferring the trombony sound, being essentially a tenor player, but there are times I strive for a bit more velvet warmth. I find it more difficult to achieve the velvety fuzzy sound. For me, that transition is a question of hardware. I can't make my small horn sound fuzzy, and can only get the Kanstul to sound bright with something like a Ferguson V mouthpiece.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-23 3:01 p.m.

The only bass trombone sounds I listened to in my youth were therefore the greatest influence ever on me. In my humble opinion they were the two best bass trombonists to ever live they were of course George Roberts and Ray Premru. Every other sound you hear has been influenced by those two, as great as some of the greatest players of today are they are (their own) second hand version of those two! (I love overstating the point to make a point but it does have some merit to it).

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-08-23 6:00 p.m.

C Vernon? D Taylor?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-23 8:02 p.m.

Yikes.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-08-23 8:52 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Yikes.[/quote]
Anything to add? Care to chance an opinion? Surely you have a preference?

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-24 5:14 a.m.

Bach5G » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:00 pm

C Vernon? D Taylor?

Well theyre not too shabby!!!

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-24 5:38 a.m.

Thinking out loud here... George would have been old enough to have been both Charlie Vernon and Dave Taylors father. Ray Premru burst on the scene with his spectacular playing 12 years before Charlie and Dave Taylor is the same age as me so both could have been influeneced by George and Ray? Like I say just thinking out loud!

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-08-24 12:05 p.m.

Alan Ostrander with NYP and Kauko Kahila with Boston often get overlooked when talking about the evolution of the bass bone. The equipment they used greatly affected their sound. Doug Yeo wrote about that in one of his articles.

I don't think one sound is appropriate for every situation.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-24 1:33 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="92343" time="1566604953" user_id="3131">Yikes.[/quote]
Anything to add? Care to chance an opinion? Surely you have a preference?
</QUOTE>

Yes, of course. I feel like a few statements here have been pretty hopelessly reductionist, referring to one, two, three players as the only ones that matter (GeOrGe RoBeRtS!?!?). That's not to say that those guys didn't sound amazing, because they did.

The bass trombone world is larger and more diverse than it has ever been. Don't limit yourselves.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-08-24 2:14 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I feel like a few statements here have been pretty hopelessly reductionist, referring to one, two, three players as the only ones that matter (GeOrGe RoBeRtS!?!?). That's not to say that those guys didn't sound amazing, because they did.

The bass trombone world is larger and more diverse than it has ever been. Don't limit yourselves.[/quote]

Of course, but you don't have to be encyclopeadic just to mention a couple that you think are representative.

Plus, with soloists like Roberts and Watrous on tenor, "their sound* as remembered on recordings has a lot to do with mic/recording techniques. In some ways its unrealistic to try to emulate a sound which has some non-acoustic elements (electronic/eq effects}.

One of my private trombone teachers in high school was a bass player. I think he greatly affected my sound concept although I had no desire to play bass at the time.

Max Seigel of Weather Vest is the one current player whose sound/style/technique I would most like to sound emulate. I've only heard him in chamber music setting, not big band or orchestral. I've always seen him play on vintage horns, which I tend to prefer as well.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-24 3:11 p.m.

That's a good point. But I do have to think that the section of the bass trombone population that is posting here is pretty narrow, and the answers reflect that.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-24 3:57 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="92345" time="1566607963" user_id="104">

Anything to add? Care to chance an opinion? Surely you have a preference?[/quote]

Yes, of course. I feel like a few statements here have been pretty hopelessly reductionist, referring to one, two, three players as the only ones that matter (GeOrGe RoBeRtS!?!?). That's not to say that those guys didn't sound amazing, because they did.

The bass trombone world is larger and more diverse than it has ever been. Don't limit yourselves.
</QUOTE>

Now there's a thing... many many fine players out there... all a little different. What I hear in some young players is a confused sound.... a sound trying to be many things and ending up being nothing.

George Roberts mattered, and still matters because he was pretty close to perfection in what he did and how he sounded. That made him... and still makes him, an easy and good target... and one you will never quite reach. If it's not today's sound, it is at least a sound and chaseable at that.

To missuse a famous quote ' the player who is tired of George Roberts is tired of bass trombone '.

Chris

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-24 4:09 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]That's a good point. But I do have to think that the section of the bass trombone population that is posting here is pretty narrow, and the answers reflect that.[/quote]

It's a long time since I have been accused of being narrow, but I am trying to lose a bit of weight.

The section of the bass trombone population posting here is, was and will be narrow.... but a mass poll never solved anything.... and I write from a country where that is particularly true.

We are all entitled to our opinion, so bring it on... however singular that might be. If there are not a million of us with the same idea, so be it..... I've heard enough downright bad bass trombone playing to know that is by numbers, the default setting.

I'm off to hear the Boston Pops play film music at Tanglewood... I bet the bass sounds great... whoever it is.

Chris

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-08-24 4:50 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]...

I'm off to hear the Boston Pops play film music at Tanglewood... I bet the bass sounds great... whoever it is.

Chris[/quote]

Hah! You and my wife. Hope you both enjoy the show.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-24 5:37 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="92399" time="1566677389" user_id="7109">
...

I'm off to hear the Boston Pops play film music at Tanglewood... I bet the bass sounds great... whoever it is.

Chris[/quote]

Hah! You and my wife. Hope you both enjoy the show.
</QUOTE>

Shame you are not coming. ☹

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-24 6:12 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="92392" time="1566673919" user_id="3131">
That's a good point. But I do have to think that the section of the bass trombone population that is posting here is pretty narrow, and the answers reflect that.[/quote]

It's a long time since I have been accused of being narrow, but I am trying to lose a bit of weight.

The section of the bass trombone population posting here is, was and will be narrow.... but a mass poll never solved anything.... and I write from a country where that is particularly true.

We are all entitled to our opinion, so bring it on... however singular that might be. If there are not a million of us with the same idea, so be it..... I've heard enough downright bad bass trombone playing to know that is by numbers, the default setting.

I'm off to hear the Boston Pops play film music at Tanglewood... I bet the bass sounds great... whoever it is.

Chris
</QUOTE>

I wonder if Markey does Tanglewood?

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-24 6:14 p.m.

You know whose sound I really like, Randy Hawes.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-24 7:06 p.m.

[quote="GBP"]You know whose sound I really like, Randy Hawes.[/quote]

Aha! A new name to the thread. And a great one.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="92392" time="1566673919" user_id="3131">
That's a good point. But I do have to think that the section of the bass trombone population that is posting here is pretty narrow, and the answers reflect that.[/quote]

It's a long time since I have been accused of being narrow, but I am trying to lose a bit of weight.

The section of the bass trombone population posting here is, was and will be narrow.... but a mass poll never solved anything.... and I write from a country where that is particularly true.

We are all entitled to our opinion, so bring it on... however singular that might be. If there are not a million of us with the same idea, so be it..... I've heard enough downright bad bass trombone playing to know that is by numbers, the default setting.

I'm off to hear the Boston Pops play film music at Tanglewood... I bet the bass sounds great... whoever it is.

Chris
</QUOTE>

Chris, it's not my intent to insult you by any means. This isn't about you in this case. You have a huge breadth of experience, both in the UK and otherwise.

There are many players here that do not (myself included) have that experience, but I do tire of hearing the same names trotted out again and again.

This isn't only a discussion between the posters, it's read by many people that will never post and would love to learn about bass trombone sound. I think George and Ray need to be in that discussion, but not as God figures above the rest of everyone as seems to happen every time this is brought up.

Here's a sound that I really enjoy by a modern player on a big horn and mouthpiece: Martin Schippers.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-24 8:41 p.m.

Burgerbob... its not that I dont know and fully appreciate the gifts and abilities of many many fine players that have come after George and Ray but if you were the first there, you automatically get recognition that wont be repeated. So Edmund Hilary is remembered as a climber because he was the first one to climb Mount Everest. Many of us will go and buy a Biro pen, when in fact its a ball point pen but Biro were there first. We use a Hoover to clean the home but it might be a Dyson or another make. The two names you get fed up of hearing were the pioneers, they set the bar and the path for others to follow. They are bound to come up time again even though sadly no longer with us... Doug

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-08-24 9:08 p.m.

But there are others who are even older. Leroy Kenfield. Waldemar Lillebach. John Coffey. I could probably add Don Knaub as well.

I believe Roberts studied tenor and when confronted with a section of 3 stellar tenor players he decided to take the easy road and play bass.

Nobody comes out of nowhere. We (and they) stood on the shoulders of those who went before.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-24 10:59 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]But there are others who are even older. Leroy Kenfield. Waldemar Lillebach. John Coffey. I could probably add Don Knaub as well.

I believe Roberts studied tenor and when confronted with a section of 3 stellar tenor players he decided to take the easy road and play bass.

Nobody comes out of nowhere. We (and they) stood on the shoulders of those who went before.[/quote]

Exactly.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-24 11:24 p.m.

Burgerbob....it's British humour... or my attempt at it.... trying to lose weight...a joke...

Anyway.... the pops tonight... James Markey... as good an example of sound quality as you will hear anywhere. Well worth emulating.

Chris

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-24 11:38 p.m.

Of course!

And James is in a category all his own... What a monster.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-25 5:45 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Burgerbob....it's British humour... or my attempt at it.... trying to lose weight...a joke...

Anyway.... the pops tonight... James Markey... as good an example of sound quality as you will hear anywhere. Well worth emulating.

Chris[/quote]

He also has some very good teaching videos up on YouTube.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-25 8:36 a.m.

But there are others who are even older. Leroy Kenfield. Waldemar Lillebach. John Coffey. I could probably add Don Knaub as well.

I believe Roberts studied tenor and when confronted with a section of 3 stellar tenor players he decided to take the easy road and play bass.

Nobody comes out of nowhere. We (and they) stood on the shoulders of those who went before.

You are of course quite right Bruce. Though I think Donald Knaub was more of a contemporary than a predecessor. At the risk of getting slaughtered by all the American Citizens, until I met Doug Yeo and read all his diligent research and respect he has shown for his predecessors, I hadnt heard of Leroy Kenfield, Waldermar Lillebach and John Coffey before that. Now I know I lay myself open to the criticism of being uneducated and ignorant (to which I would defend myself by saying I am but a poor Englishman who grew up in isolation from you guys on the other side).

On the other hand George Roberts is a substantial reason why I have played Bass Trombone for over 40 years, he was known and recognised the world over not just the USA.

Also I think most people would acknowledge that if it were not for George Roberts it would have been decades on before anyone started to think of the Bass Trombone as a solo instrument. George occupies a totally unique and unrivalled position in the 'hall of fame' of bass trombonists and as such deserves the pre-eminance he seems to hold in our hearts?

Also I dont think he chose the easy route on bass trombone because at the time it wasnt really an option to carve out a career on bass - he created the opportunities and made the bass into a position that others would soon follow. Phil Teal being one for instance and I love Phils playing and the world is a poorer place for losing another great player but again George was there first, he deserves the credit for that at least.

Now I'm going to be in trouble I can see it coming!!! ... Doug

Slideorama · 2019-08-25 10:10 a.m.

Sound begins and ends with George Roberts.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-08-25 11:28 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]But there are others who are even older. Leroy Kenfield. Waldemar Lillebach. John Coffey. I could probably add Don Knaub as well.

I believe Roberts studied tenor and when confronted with a section of 3 stellar tenor players he decided to take the easy road and play bass.

Nobody comes out of nowhere. We (and they) stood on the shoulders of those who went before.[/quote]

GR took "the easy road and played bass"!?

Those words stunned me!

Back in the 70's I worked hard and practiced a lot to develop and maintain a professionally competitive sound and technique on small bore straight horns.

Today, since I made the switch to bass, I'm working just as hard to develop the same thing on bass bone.

Nothing easy about it!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-08-25 11:49 a.m.

I probably should have used the word "easier" instead. Roberts was an excellent bass trombone player and is second to none.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-08-25 11:55 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Nobody comes out of nowhere. We (and they) stood on the shoulders of those who went before.[/quote]To some extent, George DID come out of nowhere. Yes, there were plenty of excellent bass trombonists before him, but his primary inspiration came not from them, but from a tenor player (Urbie Green). He essentially created a whole new approach to playing bass trombone.

But George didn't have just one sound. Listen to him play solos on ballads and then listen to his section work. Both great sounds and pretty much ideal for the situation, but most definitely not the same sound. I think we sometimes get a little too wrapped up in listening to George's solo work and neglect his section playing.

Today, we have bass trombonists whose sound is informed (directly or indirectly) both by George and by the great symphonic players of the post-WWII era.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-08-25 3:33 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I probably should have used the word "easier" instead. Roberts was an excellent bass trombone player and is second to none.[/quote]

It is in an interview I've read. George said himself he was in a section with Urbe Green and realized he would have to be as good as Urbie to be great. He noticed he had a better lower register than Urbie and then decided to be as good but an octave down. He asked the leader of the band if he could switch to bass. If you interpret this as taking "the easier way out" it is correct. Not the same competition on bass at that time because there was no Urbie Green there. The competitor was Bart Varselona who played tha bass forceful and loud, not at all with the finesse of a solo instrument. A hole could be filled.

There are many good bass trombone players today. Martin van den Berg for instance has a great sound. I had a crush for Ray's sound when I heard it on the Philip Jones records I bought in the late 70ies. GR I did not hear until later because my interest in jazz came later. I understand why few bass trombone players sound like that today. It is because most do not want that sound. It is not the sound they think of when they blow their horn. Then it is not the sound that comes out of the bell either. It might be the mouthpiece but after you've got your chops in order it more likely is the concept of sound. The choice of mouthpiece just makes the concept more or less easy and there are individual reasons for that.

A true full sound is not something that just happens. You have to work to get that sound and it needs to be in your head first to come out like you want it to. There are many types of ideal sounds that sound good to me.

Some may think I'm narrow because my ideal and my idols does not change. I keep returning to the sound of my idols even after I've heard some fabulous playing from someone with that big and mellow sound that is less front and more fundamental at the sides. Still each time I hear Ray or GR on record I know that's the sound I want from my horn.

/Tom

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-25 7:13 p.m.

I can say that while GR has a great sound, I have not listened to a lot of him and would not say he is a major influence to my sound. I would say the person I study with is the major influence in how I sound.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-08-25 8:31 p.m.

[quote="GBP"]I can say that while GR has a great sound, I have not listened to a lot of him and would not say he is a major influence to my sound. I would say the person I study with is the major influence in how I sound.[/quote]

Who do you study with?

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2019-08-25 10:41 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]

GR I did not hear until later because my interest in jazz came later. I understand why few bass trombone players sound like that today. It is because most do not want that sound. It is not the sound they think of when they blow their horn.

/Tom[/quote]

Great post, Tom

I quoted the above because I wanted to mention something about GR and why I think most don't aim towards that sound anymore. Playing like GR is difficult as hell - it requires a certain finesse and accuracy that is normally only found in small bore players. I think most bass trombone players today do not start out as small bore jazz players - some do, but most seem to be coming from a large horn, almost "classical" concept. Given the difficulty of modern bass trombone writing, it makes sense that people gravitating to that chair have an interest in specializing on large gear.

There are few modern players with the punchy-danceability of GR. One player I heard a few years ago with a friend's band in Atlanta was Major Bailey. Good lord, he was as nimble as any small bore player and could absolutely paste pedals in the most appropriately violent way. No time lag whatsoever - it was surreal hearing what he did to that poor instrument. I wish there were more like him - I absolutely love that sound and would write for it all day.

My own bass playing is, well, "enthusiastic" I guess. I don't play much bass anymore. When I did I was like a less accurate Bart V - I tried to take the "easy way out" - the easy way, it ain't.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-26 12:47 a.m.

There are several players I can think of that play standard equipment and are very nimble and light in their playing. David Taylor is comfortable in many musical situations and has incredible facility on the horn. James Markey is another player who has the ability to play nimble and has control of his sound. Charlie Vernon, Chris Brubeck, Bill Reichenbach. All have their own unique approach to sound. There are certainly player who struggle with facility. I think sometimes it is more of a case of poor equipment choice then poor equipment.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-26 3:48 a.m.

George never had 'punchability' and he was always economical with his use of pedal notes and when he did it was always delicate and with finesse. Georges equipment was the same as most players today same bore similar characteristics, he was still playing until a few months before his passing. This is not some historical character he is up to date and most players still strive to emulate him even if you claim you are emulating your teacher then the teacher most probably was heavily influenced by Georges playing.

Someone said they hadnt listened to George much but I bet they had without knowing it. So many film tracks - more than a thousand I believe (?) many many adverts on television, radio broadcasts, backing tracks to several main stream artists (besides Sinatra)... subliminal advertising for the bass trombone!!

Almost all the professional trombone players I know have the 'nimble' attributes described by GBP, one of the best is our very own Chris Stearn.

You cant get away with making less of Georges contribution past and present, its simply immense.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-08-26 6:34 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]George never had 'punchability' and he was always economical with his use of pedal notes and when he did it was always delicate and with finesse. Georges equipment was the same as most players today same bore similar characteristics, he was still playing until a few months before his passing. This is not some historical character he is up to date and most players still strive to emulate him even if you claim you are emulating your teacher then the teacher most probably was heavily influenced by Georges playing.

Someone said they hadnt listened to George much but I bet they had without knowing it. So many film tracks - more than a thousand I believe (?) many many adverts on television, radio broadcasts, backing tracks to several main stream artists (besides Sinatra)... subliminal advertising for the bass trombone!!

Almost all the professional trombone players I know have the 'nimble' attributes described by GBP, one of the best is our very own Chris Stearn.

You cant get away with making less of Georges contribution past and present, its simply immense.[/quote]
I think there are professional bass trombone players who do not know much about GR. The young professional players I'm thinking of are 20-30 years old and are now the next generation. They have grown up with double valved basses and GR i s older than their grandpa. They listen to the best players of today, not they who came before. There are a lot of young very good players who do not listen to anything besides them selves and contemporary players. GR is just another name to them.

/Tom

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-26 9:31 a.m.

Just to come at this from a slightly angle.. most, if not all of the finest players mentioned, played at a very high standard on tenor before switching to bass. I think this served them very well in their future careers.

I swapped to bass at age13 and with hindsight I think this was a mistake... I had to work much harder for strength and stamina over the following years and also had to reign in my hall shattering ability.

One of my greatest aids to bass trombone playing is a small tenor trombone, which I break out whenever my sound gets splashy and out of focus.... to me, the little guy is the real trombone and reminds me of what I have to do to pull the monster into shape.

Kinds words Doug, but I feel anything but nimble this morning.... I'd better lay down some notes as one of our fellow forumites is dropping by for a blether'n'blow later. I'll try and get a sound together.

Chris

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-26 10:22 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"].

One of my greatest aids to bass trombone playing is a small tenor trombone, which I break out whenever my sound gets splashy and out of focus.... to me, the little guy is the real trombone and reminds me of what I have to do to pull the monster into shape.

Chris[/quote]

Chris, this has been my largest improvement in years- having to improve my small tenor playing for work, and playing it about half the time I perform. I'm glad to hear it wasn't just me making that up!

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-26 1:49 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Just to come at this from a slightly angle.. most, if not all of the finest players mentioned, played at a very high standard on tenor before switching to bass. I think this served them very well in their future careers.

I swapped to bass at age13 and with hindsight I think this was a mistake... I had to work much harder for strength and stamina over the following years and also had to reign in my hall shattering ability.

One of my greatest aids to bass trombone playing is a small tenor trombone, which I break out whenever my sound gets splashy and out of focus.... to me, the little guy is the real trombone and reminds me of what I have to do to pull the monster into shape.

Kinds words Doug, but I feel anything but nimble this morning.... I'd better lay down some notes as one of our fellow forumites is dropping by for a blether'n'blow later. I'll try and get a sound together.

Chris[/quote]

I think most bass trombone players in the United States play tenor before switching to bass. Many switch in college. I know Markey was a fine tenor player. Same with Bill Reichenbach. And of course Charlie. The others I couldn’t find enough information online to say.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-08-26 1:55 p.m.

Sometimes the decision to go Bass has an ergonomic component. Byron McCullough was what we now call "vertically challenged" and had short arms. He couldn't reach 6th position. So bass worked great for him.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-26 2:03 p.m.

I did not grow up listening to big band music. Didn’t really play big band stuff until college. I grew up on Motown and R&B. I listened to a lot of Herbie, Yself, Crusaders and jazz like that. I may have heard GR in movie soundtracks, but I wasn’t listening to GR. I remember in high school playing along with. EW&F, Crusaders and Chicago albums. It is a different path for sure.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-08-26 2:21 p.m.

Brian Hecht (bass bone Atlanta Symphony) gave a talk at ATW one year describing how he hit the wall with tenor while at music school, and his teacher recommended he try bass. Bass clicked for him where tenor did not.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-26 9:14 p.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]You cant get away with making less of Georges contribution past and present, its simply immense.[/quote]
I have expressed that I didn’t listen to a lot of George Roberts and that the biggest influence on my sound was the person I study with. I have been sitting next to this person for 18 years every week for 90 minutes. At this point in my playing, much of what is happening can best be communicated with sound. He plays a phrase than I play the phrase. I listen to him more intently than any other bass player. You seem to take this as a slight. It is just my experience. I also have 40 years of playing bass trombone. I just might know what I am talking about when referring to my own personal experiences.

Specialk3700 · by **Specialk3700** » 2019-08-26 10:22 p.m.

[quote="GBP"]<QUOTE author="DougHulme" post_id="92521" time="1566805720" user_id="3157">
You cant get away with making less of Georges contribution past and present, its simply immense.[/quote]
I have expressed that I didn’t listen to a lot of George Roberts and that the biggest influence on my sound was the person I study with. I have been sitting next to this person for 18 years every week for 90 minutes. At this point in my playing, much of what is happening can best be communicated with sound. He plays a phrase than I play the phrase. I listen to him more intently than any other bass player. You seem to take this as a slight. It is just my experience. I also have 40 years of playing bass trombone. I just might know what I am talking about when referring to my own personal experiences.
</QUOTE>
This. Nothing has affected how I imagine my sound more the person I study with. That doesn't mean I want the same thing, just I pick out what I want and don't want in my own sound.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-08-27 4:49 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]<QUOTE author="DougHulme" post_id="92521" time="1566805720" user_id="3157">
You cant get away with making less of Georges contribution past and present, its simply immense.[/quote]
I have expressed that I didn’t listen to a lot of George Roberts and that the biggest influence on my sound was the person I study with. I have been sitting next to this person for 18 years every week for 90 minutes. At this point in my playing, much of what is happening can best be communicated with sound. He plays a phrase than I play the phrase. I listen to him more intently than any other bass player. You seem to take this as a slight. It is just my experience. I also have 40 years of playing bass trombone. I just might know what I am talking about when referring to my own personal experiences.
</QUOTE>
Chanses are big that your teacher have been listening to GR as most older basstrombonists have.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-27 6:38 a.m.

My teacher’s biggest influence was his teacher, John Coffey and Don Harwood.

Specialk3700 · by **Specialk3700** » 2019-08-27 9:35 a.m.

Only on the trombone forum have I seen GR mentioned so much. Never in lesson or just talking about trombone in general. Not to say GR isn't a important figure for bass bone, he most definitely is. I just think he is being blown out of proportion. You can definitely become a fantastic bass trombonist without ever listening to GR.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-27 5:41 p.m.

Basbasun... it wasnt a personal comment to you just a general one to various contributors - sorry I didnt put it well.

This is a general comment and I may retire on this one...

George Roberts is the most influential bass trombone player in the last 100 years and did more for our cause than any other individual player has ever done. That is not to say that others havent also made huge contributions and that others are not superb players and I have many friends and players who I respect and who influence me today as well. Its just that Georges influence goes so far around our world that even when you think you have never been influenced by him - you probably have!

... Doug

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-27 6:17 p.m.

I suppose that the thing is Doug, when we heard George Roberts for the first time, he was at the peak of his career.

To the younger generation he is a dead guy, only to be accessed through recordings.... the past. They are interested in who is making a great sound today, though most people have only heard many of those they talk about on recordings (as with us and George Roberts) . There are players with gorgeous sounds out there... stand a few feet away from Bill Reichenbach and you get enveloped in velvet, Ben v D is the same.... different colour velvet but velvet just the same..... I worry about where the sound of my instrument is heading, but it will be out of my hands soon enough. I have a few ex students out there that make very special sounds so I have done my best to plant a seed or two, as have others better qualified than I. We will see....

Chris

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-08-27 6:57 p.m.

George Roberts gravitated toward small equipment - 9' bells, single valves. I think a lot of people are looking to validate 578 bore slides and Roberts is the antitheses to that sort of equipment choice, so there is a motivation to minimize his influence to some extent.

I'm a big fan of the smallest equipment that works. I think Roberts liked his Conn, Olds, and Kanstul horns among others that were on the small side. But Roberts was known for solo playing, not a big symphony. Context matters which I think is the one thing we're not really talking about.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-08-27 9:56 p.m.

I think even more simply, people are different and have grown up in different cultures and have different experiences. Has George Roberts impacted how the bass is played, certainly. I don’t think anyone here has said different. Has his impact been the same on every player, why would anyone think that would be true. The belief that everything has a single story is not true.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-27 10:51 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]George Roberts gravitated toward small equipment - 9' bells, single valves. I think a lot of people are looking to validate 578 bore slides and Roberts is the antitheses to that sort of equipment choice, so there is a motivation to minimize his influence to some extent.

I'm a big fan of the smallest equipment that works. I think Roberts liked his Conn, Olds, and Kanstul horns among others that were on the small side. But Roberts was known for solo playing, not a big symphony. Context matters which I think is the one thing we're not really talking about.[/quote]

George Roberts made his money in the studios, much of which was basically an orchestra situation.

Equipment is overrated as a manipulator of sound.... I sound pretty much the same on any size of bass trombone and I have the whole spectrum. Sound starts in the head. I remember years ago messing around with Ben v D and swapping instruments... a Thein and a Rath... supposedly tonal opposites... we each sounded the same as always whichever insrument we played... we thought that was very amusing.

Chris

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-08-28 2:40 a.m.

Fossil wrote... George Roberts made his money in the studios, much of which was basically an orchestra situation.

Equipment is overrated as a manipulator of sound.... I sound pretty much the same on any size of bass trombone and I have the whole spectrum. Sound starts in the head. I remember years ago messing around with Ben v D and swapping instruments... a Thein and a Rath... supposedly tonal opposites... we each sounded the same as always whichever insrument we played... we thought that was very amusing.

Chris

Chris, I couldnt agree more!... Doug

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-08-28 7:19 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]

Sound starts in the head.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more! As a college student playing a straight small bore I can remember practicing with my bell pointing at a wall and mentally visualizing my sound penetrating through the wall and coming out the other side. I'm doing the same type excercise now on bass. But now I work on 2 sound concepts. One focused and edgy for big band work, a a second sound with softer edges and microphone dependent for solo work!

hyperbolica · 2019-08-28 11:57 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]

George Roberts made his money in the studios, much of which was basically an orchestra situation.[/quote]

Yeah, but he's best known for his solo stuff. That's where it's easiest to pick out his sound.

Equipment is overrated as a manipulator of sound.... I sound pretty much the same on any size of bass trombone and I have the whole spectrum. Sound starts in the head. I remember years ago messing around with Ben v D and swapping instruments... a Thein and a Rath... supposedly tonal opposites... we each sounded the same as always whichever insrument we played... we thought that was very amusing.

Chris

You're the one who is always talking about MV 1 1/2g, and lamenting kid's oversized mouthpiece choices, right?

What do you sound like on a french horn or tuba? I know I sound like a french horn or tuba. I have my own characteristic way of articulating and slurring, and various points of personal style, but hardware has an effect. It's more subtle when you're talking about different design aspects of the same family of instruments, but its still there. And even if all it changes is the feel, then it changes how I react to it. Plus, I'm sure very few of us have your level of command over the instrument. You may be able to make a Thein sound like an Olds P22 (or vice versa), but I know I can't, and honestly wouldn't try, I aim for the sweet spot of the instrument, as I'm more successful going with the horn's natural tendencies than trying to bend it to my tonal will.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-28 12:33 p.m.

On French horn I simply sound dreadful.... merely not so good on tuba. Point taken. I was really talking instrument in a bass trombone sense. A good friend who posts on here said to me that with equipment, the closer to the player, the greater the influence.... mouthpiece big, leadpipe quite big, slide less so etc etc. Interesting perspective....

Chris

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-08-28 1:14 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]A good friend who posts on here said to me that with equipment, the closer to the player, the greater the influence.... mouthpiece big, leadpipe quite big, slide less so etc etc. Interesting perspective....

Chris[/quote]

Thats also my experience. Mouthpiece and leadpipe make a tremendous difference to me whereas I can barely hear and feel the difference of bell material.

imsevimse · 2019-08-28 2:01 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]... the closer to the player, the greater the influence.... mouthpiece big, leadpipe quite big, slide less so etc etc. Interesting perspective....

Chris[/quote]
Yes, I agree. Closest to the body is the brain and that is also the part that's most important to the sound. "The sound starts in your head".

The mouthpiece is certainly what's next. I often change mouthpiece on tenor. A .500 bore sound very different with a small Bach 11C and a Hammond 12M (Bach 5-ish).

The leadpipe can change the horn a lot too. A cracked leadpipe destroys the sound of any trombone. The leadpipe makes the horn a player or not, that's pretty important. It can make the horn play big or small.

The slide and bell? I have not experimented with a lot of slides and bells on the same equipment so I can not confirm that but I know dents can be pretty big and still the instrument is not affected. It depends on where the dent is.

What I think; the equipment we choose make the sound we have in our head more or less easy to produce. If we have the possibility to change our mindset and imagine another sound we would NOT sound the same whatever equipment we are playing. When I change instruments I resign to what ever character the instrument has. I sound very different on my Yamaha 612R and my Holton 169 and my Bach 45 and my Conn 70h. I don't try to make them sound the same. The same goes for my tenors. If I want the same sound I would only use one instrument.

/Tom

MoominDave · by **MoominDave** » 2019-08-30 9:22 a.m.

No mention of Bob Hughes yet? Paul Milner, the current incumbent of his former seat at the LSO, also has a sound appoach to admire.

Regarding the earlier discussion about "standing on the shoulders of giants", yes, no-one comes from nowhere, and indeed there were bass trombone names to remember from the WW2 era and before. But the changes in instrumental fashions between then and now mean that meaningful comparisons are hard to come by. Leroy Kenfield was mentioned... What equipment did Kenfield play on? A mouthpiece not dissimilar to a 6-1/2AL; an early Holton of whose dimensions I'm unsure (and then later a Conn). It certainly wasn't a .562" bore - such large tubes were not part of trombone slide design at that time. These people were playing different musical games to anyone playing since the mainstream bass trombone community unilaterally decided on .562" bores, and so the first to make their names on the modern American-style bass trombone bores do stand as pioneers in an important sense.

It shouldn't be denied that there is important commonality over the decades in what makes a good bass trombone sound - listening to the 1906 BSO trombone quartet 78 recordings with Kenfield shows even through the crackles of the medium a beautiful rich tone and an admirably clean articulation (more difficult on such equipment than now) in the dynamically limited repertoire that they chose to record. But the possibilities of such instruments are significantly different to the possibilities of bass trombone instruments as they've been since the 1960s. Yes, e.g. Kleinhammer would not have been the player he was without the efforts of the preceding generation(s). But in am important sense players of his era created the bass trombone anew. And this goes even more so in the UK, where the bass trombone tradition that preceded the adoption of modern American-style instruments called for even smaller instruments and much pointier noises - Ray Premru was painting on a near-blank canvas.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-08-30 3:10 p.m.

It's wrong to think old trombones were bad and difficult to play well. They were different and less consistent but old horns can still sound very good today which means they knew what they were doing in the old days too. The ideal sound was different, not bad, just different.

/Tom

MoominDave · by **MoominDave** » 2019-08-30 5:05 p.m.

That's what I said!

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-08-30 5:49 p.m.

[quote="MoominDave"]That's what I said![/quote]

Great to find out that two persons agree on something. You said it in more words than I did, but I don't know as many English words as you do. Good post! :good:

/Tom

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-30 10:20 p.m.

The Fuchs model Conn bass was the model for most modern basses. made in the 1920's... .562 bore slide and a big throated 9 1/2" bell. In America the 'modern' equipment has been around a long time.

Chris

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2019-08-31 3:05 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]The Fuchs model Conn bass was the model for most modern basses. made in the 1920's... .562 bore slide and a big throated 9 1/2" bell. In America the 'modern' equipment has been around a long time.

Chris[/quote]
Noah Gladstone states that his Fuchs is from 1916.. :shock:

MoominDave · by **MoominDave** » 2019-08-31 6:36 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]The Fuchs model Conn bass was the model for most modern basses. made in the 1920's... .562 bore slide and a big throated 9 1/2" bell. In America the 'modern' equipment has been around a long time.
[/quote]

But... Was it the standard that people went to then when they looked for a bass trombone? I could use more info on this point - I don't feel like it was, but would struggle to convincingly back myself up in asserting that. I'd be pointing at 70H specials being made with various bore sizes (down to .525" as I recall? Or do I misremember?), and at Fuchs basses being rare and the design not really catching on until Bach, Holton, and Conn made their later copies of it.

Or was it that that was in some cultural sense the accepted "bass trombone" in the US interwar, but that it was rare at that time, and so parts marked 'bass' were often played on smaller instruments? It seems to me that the modern bass trombone only firmed into the shape it broadly still has in the 1960s - but I'd love to know more about the story.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-08-31 8:14 a.m.

Up until the mid 20th Century the trombone sections of American and British orchestras were quite different. Americans used variants on the German style, often with large bores. Often an American symphonic trombone was 0.525" or so. Bass trombone ranged from 0.547" to 0.565". In Britain, on the other hand, the bass trombone was in G and often 0.525" or sometimes even smaller. The tenor was also much smaller.

If you want to hear the differences between the sections, Trent Hamilton played a quartet using an old "pea shooter" and his grandfather's G bass for the "old" sound and a set of modern sized instruments. It's an interesting video. I hope this link works: <YOUTUBE id="sHC8SZTGvWA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHC8SZTGvWA</YOUTUBE>

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-08-31 9:26 a.m.

The seed of the modern trombone sound was planted in Germany in the mid 19th century. Trombones began to be made with a large (.500-550) bore and large (9-9.5") bell. I have an example that is in Bb and without valve but would probably have been called a bass trombone. Played with a period mouthpiece it has a tone a little different from modern horns but plug in a large modern mouthpiece and you could use it in a modern section !

Chris

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-08-31 9:36 a.m.

One difference is their volume.

The older horns as my Conn small tenor with a 7" bell from 1902 and my 6.5" bell King from 1904 can not take the same air as my modern symphony .547 horns but if you play pianissimo the old horns still can glow while you have to struggle to get that same glow on the modern horns.

A modern fortissimo in a symphony orchestra would sound terrible on the old instruments if I try to play them as loud as LOUD is today. The character of loud comes much earlier on these old horns. It means the experienced volume loud does not need as much decibel compared to the modern standard of loud.

The character is what is sought of musically, not volume, not really. If we want to be heard from long distance in a noisy environment, maybe outside, then loud is nessecary. In a church or in a good concert hall were the rest of the orchestra scales down in volume the character loud of an old smallbored instrument could be an advantage.

/Tom

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-09-01 6:21 a.m.

Interesting points to consider after reading imservimse post...

One of my teachers Maisie Ringham/Wiggins played for many years on a small salvation Army 6.5" belled 'pea shooter' trombone. She got a huge round sound out of it not too much different to that which she produced when she graduated to an Olds Recording, which in turn wasnt too different to the sound she got when she finally arrived at her beloved Conn 88. Absolutely she found it much easier to create the sound she wanted on the better equipment and no doubt helped her to do it for longer (in years) but it seems to me the player is much more important than the instrument. When imservimse says "A modern fortissimo in a symphony orchestra would sound terrible on the old instruments if I try to play them as loud as LOUD is today" he isnt wrong if you apply that to me but the fact is that the previous generation of players did do it and they didnt sound terrible.

Likewise there were some amazing G Trombone bass players over here (UK) who got remarkably large fat sounds out of those instruments that didnt sound too different from modern big equipment - it just wasnt as easy or as accessible to us all.

On another point and going back to George Roberts, he could project a note to the back of the concert hall without seemingly putting any effort in to it and included pianissimo notes not just the loud ones! He did that on all the equipment he ever used.

And one last point - interesting post by Doug Yeo on his "Last Trombone" blog about Edward Kleinhammer the other giant that stood alongside George Roberts in the Bass Trombone annals of history - theres a picture of them meeting for the first time in 2004 too.

Read it here... <LINK_TEXT text="http://thelasttrombone.com/2019/09/01/1 ... 1919-2013/">http://thelasttrombone.com/2019/09/01/100-years-ago-today-edward-marck-kleinhammer-1919-2013/</LINK_TEXT>

Doug

imsevimse · 2019-09-01 10:45 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]When imservimse says "A modern fortissimo in a symphony orchestra would sound terrible on the old instruments if I try to play them as loud as LOUD is today" he isnt wrong if you apply that to me but the fact is that the previous generation of players did do it and they didnt sound terrible.[/quote]

Correct! They could play beautiful and loud but loud was not as loud as LOUD is today which was my point. I'm talking decibel which is different from what you hear and perceive as the character loud.

I bet very few know how many decibel the composer whish for in his work when the manuscript says fortissimo but most in the orchestra knows when a sound from a trombone is perceived as loud. If the orchestra has a really loud fortissimo the small bore might not be as effective. This was is the reason for bigger horns in the first place, to be able to play louder.

/Tom

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-09-01 11:05 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]And one last point - interesting post by Doug Yeo on his "Last Trombone" blog about Edward Kleinhammer the other giant that stood alongside George Roberts in the Bass Trombone annals of history - theres a picture of them meeting for the first time in 2004 too.[/quote]
Several years ago, Charlie Vernon was the guest artist at SoCal Trombone Day. Towards the end of his master class, the organizers snuck GR in through a door behind Charlie. The look on Charlie's face when he realized George was right there behind him...

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-09-01 4:02 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Up until the mid 20th Century the trombone sections of American and British orchestras were quite different. Americans used variants on the German style, often with large bores. Often an American symphonic trombone was 0.525" or so. Bass trombone ranged from 0.547" to 0.565". In Britain, on the other hand, the bass trombone was in G and often 0.525" or sometimes even smaller. The tenor was also much smaller.

If you want to hear the differences between the sections, Trent Hamilton played a quartet using an old "pea shooter" and his grandfather's G bass for the "old" sound and a set of modern sized instruments. It's an interesting video. I hope this link works: <YOUTUBE id="sHC8SZTGvWA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHC8SZTGvWA</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Very interesting video. Personally, for big band use, I preferred the sound of the G bass in this video. Has anyone experimented with one in a big band setting?

MoominDave · by **MoominDave** » 2019-09-01 4:09 p.m.

Yes, I have on occasion. It's hard going, though it does offer some nice tonal shading.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-09-01 4:10 p.m.

Most G bass trombones do not have attachments and thus cannot play below Db below the bass staff. Some are equipped with a D attachment to play lower notes, but they are definitely not common.

Also, the slide is a lot longer and you need to use the handle to get to the lower notes. Facility with the handle is a lot more difficult than an instrument in Bb/F.

If you really want the sound of the G bass you might be better off using a medium bore horn with an F-attachment. But you will have a big problem if the chart contains a low B natural.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2019-09-02 2:31 a.m.

To join in the thinking aloud, Ray has had a massive influence on the bass bone concept in the UK, but as we get more generations away the number of those influenced reduces and that may be why the classic sound has given way, Les Lake during his time at ENO and Alwyn Green also had big influences with their teaching and playing

I know Bob Hughes has done his part in keeping it alive with his teaching, and for any bass bone players go and listen to the recording of the Alpine symphony with Bob it is fantastic

As George Roberts said 'a bass trombone is still a trombone and should sound like a trombone'

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-09-02 11:45 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]

If you really want the sound of the G bass you might be better off using a medium bore horn with an F-attachment. But you will have a big problem if the chart contains a low B natural.[/quote]

This is very interesting! With this in mind I revisited my Conn 50H. For a mouthpiece I used a small shank Bach 5G that I bored out to a .276 throat. I alternated playing the 50H and a 72H along with a YouTube video of Makin' Whoopee.

Wow, the two sounds were startlingly different! And now I'm not sure which horn to use for big band work! Not having the low B doesn't bother me. There are several ways around that.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-09-02 12:03 p.m.

I believe the tuning slide of the 50H F-attachment is long enough for an E-pull.

There are also ways to get a bass trombone cup on a small shank. I put a Warburton 3B cup on a #4 (tenor) shank to try on a Yamaha 321 Euph. But the usual mouthpiece for a G-bass was somewhere in the 6.5AL size (per Doug Yeo).

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-09-02 1:16 p.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="93026" time="1567368633" user_id="53">

If you really want the sound of the G bass you might be better off using a medium bore horn with an F-attachment. But you will have a big problem if the chart contains a low B natural.[/quote]

This is very interesting! With this in mind I revisited my Conn 50H. For a mouthpiece I used a small shank Bach 5G that I bored out to a .276 throat. I alternated playing the 50H and a 72H along with a YouTube video of Makin' Whoopee.

Wow, the two sounds were startlingly different! And now I'm not sure which horn to use for big band work! Not having the low B doesn't bother me. There are several ways around that.
</QUOTE>

Wow, the whole last page of this "bass trombone sound" thread has really gotten me excited and I think moving closer to what "my" ideal bass bone sound should be.

The idea that what is closest to the player starts the sound shape started me thinking. Then the video with the G bass in it was eye opening. Then when BGuttman suggested using a medium bore horn with f-attachment to approximate the G bass sound... wow, it all got me thinking and then experimenting.

Here's what I tried and my thoughts -

Conn 72H with 1 1/2G - nice big sound, but not centered enough for me

Conn 50H with a small shank 5G with a .276 throat - very centered and penetrating, but small

Conn 72 with a stock 4G - better, but not quite what I'm looking for

Conn 72H with that same .276 throated small shank 5G into a small to large adaptor - wow! I think I have a winner!

With that last set up I got the big, centered, penetrating, edgy sound I've been looking for! I wonder if anyone would make me a Remington shank 5G with a .276 throat?

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2019-09-02 3:03 p.m.

Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.

What is certainly true is that the small horn "lights up" the high harmonics at a lower volume, and it's the higher harmonics that send the "loud" signal to the listener. Going to bigger horns over time could rather have been an effort to play darker louder before the sound lit up.

It would be interesting if there are any composer comments on trombone sound who were active during both the small and large horn periods, because the section sound certainly did change.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-09-03 5:07 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.

What is certainly true is that the small horn "lights up" the high harmonics at a lower volume, and it's the higher harmonics that send the "loud" signal to the listener. Going to bigger horns over time could rather have been an effort to play darker louder before the sound lit up.

It would be interesting if there are any composer comments on trombone sound who were active during both the small and large horn periods, because the section sound certainly did change.[/quote]

"Lights up" is a useful expresion. Lets say that the smaller horns lights up at 84 Db, the large horn lights up at 92 Db. (Hypotethically of course) The "lighten up" sound from the trombones in an old recording is what often makes the modern band playes louder to get the "lighten up" sound.

I can play louder at the higher range on a 500# bore but louder on the lower range on a 562# bore.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-09-04 8:00 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.
[/quote]

I think there is a difference between loudest and easiest to hear.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-09-04 9:32 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.
[/quote]

I think there is a difference between loudest and easiest to hear.

The ear can perceive certain pitches differently depending on timber, pitch and probably a few I missed.

michaelrmurrin · by **michaelrmurrin** » 2019-09-09 12:53 a.m.

For classical bass trombone sound, my preference is a very rich sound, that has plenty of crispness, and is a very nice thick sound, and full, rich sound. Examples of some of my favorite bass trombone sounds are those of:

Martin Schippers (Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra)

Blair Bollinger (Philadelphia Orchestra)

George Curran (New York Philharmonic)

Christian Jones (formerly of Philharmonia Orchestra)

John Lofton (Los Angeles Philharmonic)

For my own playing, my approach is just to listen to recordings (ideally solo albums or YouTube videos) of my favorite bass trombone players and just try to imitate their sound quality.

For jazz bass bone I don't really have a lot of experience or knowledge there.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-10-04 4:18 p.m.

My main emphasis is big band and I work very hard to get a compact and focused sound on my 72H. But I also play third trombone in a very serious Symphonic Community Band. It has a real legit director and very serious symphonic wind musicians. I don't try to "change" my sound for this group. And surprisingly, I've gotten a lot of compliments on the "presence" I give to the bottom of the trombone section. Go figure....

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2019-10-07 4:56 p.m.

Here`s a couple examples of both

Commercial/Jazz - Bill Reichenbach <YOUTUBE id="8QtCe6TJCsQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QtCe6TJCsQ</YOUTUBE>

Classical - Denson Paul Pollard - <YOUTUBE id="V_PAO7aiHpw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_PAO7aiHpw</YOUTUBE>

trombonedemon · by **trombonedemon** » 2019-11-03 7:49 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I am no expert on bass trombone playing, but in my experience the major difference between big band and orchestral bass trombone is about style and articulation, not actual "sound," and the same goes for equipment. There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.[/quote]

Indeed! I not sure why anyone would think otherwise, maybe it makes some people feel better about there playing abilities?

Jimprindle · by **Jimprindle** » 2019-11-03 8:25 p.m.

It really varies. For awhile, the bigger orchestras were competing over big equip, bigger mpcs, big loud bass trombone sounds. I think that changed in the late 1990's early 2000's. Now I think the examples being led by Boston, NYC (don't know about Chicago or others) is to use the instrument that fits the music. A Mahler bass trombone part is not Mozart, playing pops concerts of Gershwin, John Williams, is not the same as Rossini or Offenbach.

It used to be one horn fits all in symphony orchestras, maybe the same in smaller orchestras but I think the over-sized equipment has gradually gone down to a "moderately big" bass trombone equipment.

And especially personal preference rather than trying to live up to a general idiom.

Today and yesterday I performed Wm Tell ovt. and Bartok Concerto for Orchestra with a large excellent orchestra. I used the same instrument/mpc but used different "tone" and "articulation" concepts. Worked fine. I have heard personnel in Boston would actually change equipment. But they are way above my pay grade.

To the poster concerned about fitting in a community symphonic band: it's a big concert band with several different people and equipment on the same parts throughout the brass section. Not the same thing as 12-14 brass players playing one on a part trying to fit in with dozens of string and ww players. Just play what makes you happy and sounds good.

LumberJill · by **LumberJill** » 2020-12-12 5:09 p.m.

I'm bringing this conversation back, but will put a little different spin on it. If your experience is similar to mine, there are handful of recordings and live music experiences that have shaped the sound in your head. Sometimes those influencers are bass trombone sounds, but not always (or even mostly in my case). Our own personal sound is like a great big soup with flavors added in from diverse musical experiences. The most influential sounds are those ones that we keep going back to, hitting rewind and listening to Again...and again...and again. Those sounds and styles get under your skin. They get into your bones. They become the song in your head and if you practice enough, they come out your bell. Here's a list of mine. I can't explain why for some of them, but these are the ones that I keep going back to.

There's an old recording of antiphonal Gabrieli music with the brass sections from Chicago, Cleveland and Philadelphia. I listened to the last part of Conzon Duodecimi Toni a thousands times or more. I'm not sure if the sound that captivated me came from Kleinhammer or Ed Anderson. My guess is Anderson.

San Francisco Symphony - Mathis Der Maler - Blomstedt - John Engelkes (John told me that he played on a Conn 62H for this recording). Funny that of all the great SF recordings, this is the one that fascinated me.

Cleveland Orchestra - Pictures - Lorin Maazel (not the one with George Szell) - Ed Anderson

Los Angeles Phil - Dvorak 8 - Esa Pekka Salonen - Jeff Reynolds

London Symphony Orchestra - Sibelius 2 - Colin Davis - ???

Chicago Symphony - Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme - Reiner - Kleinhammer

London Brass Intrada Album - Dave Stewart

Bach Cello Suites - Janos Starker (also Rose, Casals and Rastropovich...but mostly Starker)

Cecilia Bartoli Rossini Arias Album

Jessye Norman - Gounod - Ave Maria

Tons of live concerts of the Rochester Philharmonic - Dave Richey

Special mention has to go to turning pages for the piano player in the recording sessions for Blair Bollinger's Fancy Free album. Sitting in that room listening to Blair all day and then going home and practicing, my sound changed dramatically in that ONE WEEK.

For Jazz

The Incredible Kai WInding Trombones Album - Tony Studd

Thad Jones Mel Lewis Band - Live at the Village Vanguard Album - I thought was studying Mel Lewis's time and feel, but Cliff Heathers' playing was taking root in my mind.

Frank Sinatra - The Capitol Years - George Roberts sets the bar for big band playing in a lot of these sessions, BUT Sinatra had a bigger influence on my sound, if I'm being totally honest.

Dean Martin - Ain't That a Kick in the Head - LOVE the bass trombone playing on that track. No idea who it is. Definitely qualities to Dean's voice worth emulating there as well.

Mel Torme - Tons of stuff. More for articulation and style than tone color.

For me, if you could take a base stock of Sinatra, add some of the "burn" in Lou Rawls' voice, articulations from Mel Torme and be able to lay back and swing hard like Tony Bennet when he sang with the Basie band...Game over. That's the perfect commercial bass trombone sound.

Those are the ingredients in my secret sauce. What are yours?

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2020-12-13 9:53 a.m.

For jazz (currently listening to the inevitable Dave Taylor) I find myself listening to baritone sax players, e.g. Harry Carney.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2020-12-13 6:06 p.m.

Tony Studd, Dick Hixon, George Roberts, Lewis Van Haney, and Ed Kleinhammer. Done deal.

gbedinger · by **gbedinger** » 2020-12-13 9:59 p.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]...smaller brass group I strive for a bigger/rounder "pillowy" sound. No sharp edges. When I'm playing bass in a big band I go for a centered more focused and penetrating sound. First because I need to blend with the rest of the section. Second, because there are so many juicy little bits in the bass book that really need to be heard with some presence.

The only time I vary from the focused bigband sound is when playing a featured solo. Then I play with a sound somewhere in between the two ala George Roberts.

Like I said, just my humble op[/quote]

I don’t spend as much time here anymore,and I’m coming in late, but this is one one of the more interesting (and substantive) discussions since the “who in their right mind plays a 1 1/2g?”

My concept is more like the quote above...in big/jazz band it is a more centered and focused sound, predominantly. In a symphonic setting it varies.

In symphony, something like a Tchaikovsky symphony, I played with an edge much like a big band sound, since the part was typically a double (by octaves) with the tuba.

On the extreme other end, was the playing and interpreting the Brahms symphonies on third (not bass!) trombone. Articulations were as round and sonorous as I could make them, particularly since there was no tuba and I was the lowest brass player in attendance. And you know what? As much as I loved playing the bombastic bass trombone parts, the greatest surprise and most pleasure in my years of symphonic playing were those Brahms Symphonys.

Finally, I liked LumberJill’s conceptions of sound coming from vocalists. I could also name a few trombonists that have made an impression (many from the ATW/ETW, Taylor, van Dijk, Bollinger, Guilford, Attema, Marley, et al), but as a youth, I remember the Rat Pack singers and music by Nelson Riddle, and that all made an impression. (If only I had had access to 60s recordings, so easily available these days, back then, eh?)

We are all products of our upbringings, n’est pas?

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2020-12-14 11:12 a.m.

When I was seriously getting into Bass Trombone as an actual serious double.

I went back to 4 players whose sound I always loved

Don Knaub - Studied with Don for 2 summers at Eastman.

Bob Kalwas - I studied with Bob for a year. He is a Remington Student.

Mike Purdy - Retired from the Philly Pops Orch. Mike has more of an Old school Bass trombone sound

and

Instrument repair wizard - Paul Able

All 4 of these guys have beautiful big dark sounds that when needed, can hit you in the chest and be felt.

I know these might not be household names to many here, sometimes our influences are closer to home

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-14 11:41 a.m.

A little surprised not to see any mention of Tomer Maschkowski. Great warm vibrant sound, weighty without being heavy. I really enjoy his duets with Martin Schippers.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-14 1:42 p.m.

Had to re read this thread to remind myself what it was about. At one point it degenerated into a pissing match about the pro and not so pro George Roberts camps....

Moving on, The OP asked about sounds for classical and Jazz and examples of players who play well in each style.

Can I dare to venture that the sustained sounds are not so different and it's the articulation that differs with style.

Chris

fsgazda · by **fsgazda** » 2020-12-14 1:53 p.m.

bassboy · by **bassboy** » 2020-12-14 3:49 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]A little surprised not to see any mention of Tomer Maschkowski. Great warm vibrant sound, weighty without being heavy. I really enjoy his duets with Martin Schippers.[/quote]

Seconded! Love the video of him playing the Ewazen Concertino. I've never really heard anybody make the YBL-830 sound quite that rich before. What an excellent instrument spokesperson.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-14 3:50 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Can I dare to venture that the sustained sounds are not so different and it's the articulation that differs with style.[/quote]
I've seen an article which claims the articulation is also the only difference between trumpet and clarinet. If true, probably fair to say it holds for jazz bass bone vs classical bass bone.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-12-14 4:54 p.m.

There are a lot of great players, more than ever. A lot of great sounds.

B McChesney has a few videos of various players playing studies from his Harmonic Dexterity. Here’s one featuring Bill R.

<YOUTUBE id="8QtCe6TJCsQ">https://youtu.be/8QtCe6TJCsQ</YOUTUBE>

He makes it sound so easy. Back in the day Bill and Mike Davis hit town with the unpromisingly named Trombone Circus. Bill stole the show. I spoke to him briefly afterwards and commented that I had to go home and practice my long tones. So did he, he said.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-12-14 9:55 p.m.

[quote="trombinstharry"]Hello all, I believe I have made a thread about this before but I didn't really know how to word what I was asking. Let's say there is a jazz bass bonist and a classical bassist, but about to perform a bass trombone feature piece in wherever they perform. What does the jazz basser look for in his sound, and what does the classical bass trombonist look for? Not so much technique, but just tone in general. And, who are some good jazz bass trombonists to listen to? And classical? Thank you[/quote]

There are definitely more variables than you described, but I understand you wanted to be short and sweet.

Loud Orchestral: Don Harwood (This is THE loud orchestral sound)

Soft Orchestral: Charlie Vernon (There are many options, but this man plays so beautifully soft)

Loud Jazz: Dave Taylor (Also many others who could've been included, but Dave has that perfect hybrid Jazz/classical loud sound)

Soft Jazz: George Roberts (What a marvelous sound, and someone who paved the road for all bass trombonists)

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-12-15 9:00 a.m.

Most important thing about a bass trombone sound is intonation.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-15 9:17 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]Most important thing about a bass trombone sound is intonation.[/quote]

Not inclination?

Chris

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2020-12-15 1:21 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="133855" time="1607971356" user_id="7109">Can I dare to venture that the sustained sounds are not so different and it's the articulation that differs with style.[/quote]
I've seen an article which claims the articulation is also the only difference between trumpet and clarinet. If true, probably fair to say it holds for jazz bass bone vs classical bass bone.
</QUOTE>

It's a bit more complex than that. Chop off the attack and decay phases of a tone of the same pitch from a few different instruments, keeping only the sustain phase, shuffle them and have someone try to identify them, and they'll have a hard time, especially without knowing what the possible instruments are. They'll all sound very different, but they are really hard to associate with the instruments because so much of the information our brain usually uses to distinguish between them is missing.

But that isn't to say the articulation is the difference (otherwise we'd perceive the tone of an accented note on trombone as extremely different than a legato note). The attack phase is much broader than just the articulation. There are things that happen during the attack phase of a trombone note consistently differently from say, a saxophone note, regardless of the articulation we use. The timbre of the sustain phase is also still super important .I agree that a lot of the difference, or most, between different styles is articulations, but a jazz trombone player still sounds like a trombone player, not like an entirely different instrument.

Side-note - the clarinet is actually one of the easiest for your brain to identify without the attack phase, because its tone only contains the odd-numbered harmonics, which gets it closer to an ideal square wave than to an ideal sine wave. That is a very rare feature among commonly heard instruments.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-15 2:36 p.m.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]<QUOTE author="trombinstharry" post_id="81756" time="1553829502" user_id="3669">
Hello all, I believe I have made a thread about this before but I didn't really know how to word what I was asking. Let's say there is a jazz bass bonist and a classical bassist, but about to perform a bass trombone feature piece in wherever they perform. What does the jazz basser look for in his sound, and what does the classical bass trombonist look for? Not so much technique, but just tone in general. And, who are some good jazz bass trombonists to listen to? And classical? Thank you[/quote]

There are definitely more variables than you described, but I understand you wanted to be short and sweet.

Loud Orchestral: Don Harwood (This is THE loud orchestral sound)

Soft Orchestral: Charlie Vernon (There are many options, but this man plays so beautifully soft)

Loud Jazz: Dave Taylor (Also many others who could've been included, but Dave has that perfect hybrid Jazz/classical loud sound)

Soft Jazz: George Roberts (What a marvelous sound, and someone who paved the road for all bass trombonists)
</QUOTE>
Loud? Soft? Not sure if you're being sarcastic to be short and sweet but....

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-12-15 3:20 p.m.

Sound is not easy to put words at. Mostly all professional players I have heard have good sound, even many amateurs have good sound. The bass trombone is a good sounding instrument. At least all us of us agree on that...hehe. But many in the public like it too. I often play in churches and its easy to get a nice sound that many likes. At least the old ladys in my church like it.... Classical and jazz sound is maybe more how you play? Style, articulation and so on. But all sounds must have a solid core without being too penetrating or brassy, difficult to put words on. Just beautiful is maybe the best word? Since I really dont know much about nor jazz or classical I dont know what they really look for. It maybe differ from player to player. I see many classical symphony players have more than one trombone and use different instrument depending on what music the play.

Im from a time without internet so I got influenced by live players and teachers, and George Roberts which I stumbled over in a supermarked. Not him personal, It was in that time where they played music in all shops. Cant get that sound out of my mind. I listen everything today and there is so much nice to listen. All different but all nice. Some bad on youtube of course. But so many professionals today with excellent sound.

I believe that today most bass trombone players need more hats in their work than before? They have to vary their playing?

Leif

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2020-12-16 11:27 a.m.

I have not read the full and very long threat (again), but if thinking about great bass trombonists and bass trombone sounds that might not have been mentioned yet:

- Stefan Schulz and Thomas Leyendecker/Berlin Philharmonic

- Uwe Füssel/Munich Opera and German Brass

- Maybe a little different for Americans, but great playing and sound can also be found e.g. from SIegfried Cieslik and Hermann Bäumer, former bass trombonists of the Berlin Phil. If you want to go even deeper into German style, look at e.g. Staatskapelle Dresden

- Brandt Attema/Dutch Radio Orchestra

I am very happy that I have had lessons or studied with a few of them...

I think the usual suspects such as Charlie Vernon, George Curran, James Markey, George Roberts, Bill Reichenbach etc. have all been mentioned multiple times.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-12-16 11:55 a.m.

One of my favorites that hasn't been mentioned is Max Seigel, NY freelance. Max kind of redeems the bass trombone as a real musical instrument for me. I've heard him primarily in his chamber music mode, ~~[url]~~http://weathervest.com/.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-12-18 12:44 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="BrianJohnston" post_id="133922" time="1608000907" user_id="9667">

There are definitely more variables than you described, but I understand you wanted to be short and sweet.

Loud Orchestral: Don Harwood (This is THE loud orchestral sound)

Soft Orchestral: Charlie Vernon (There are many options, but this man plays so beautifully soft)

Loud Jazz: Dave Taylor (Also many others who could've been included, but Dave has that perfect hybrid Jazz/classical loud sound)

Soft Jazz: George Roberts (What a marvelous sound, and someone who paved the road for all bass trombonists)[/quote]
Loud? Soft? Not sure if you're being sarcastic to be short and sweet but....
</QUOTE>

In confused, i'm just giving my personal preferences on Bass Trombone sounds, which dynamic has a lot to do with.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-18 3:04 p.m.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="134024" time="1608060969" user_id="7573">

Loud? Soft? Not sure if you're being sarcastic to be short and sweet but....[/quote]

In confused, i'm just giving my personal preferences on Bass Trombone sounds, which dynamic has a lot to do with.
</QUOTE>

:good:

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2020-12-18 3:33 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]I have not read the full and very long threat (again), but if thinking about great bass trombonists and bass trombone sounds that might not have been mentioned yet:

- Stefan Schulz and Thomas Leyendecker/Berlin Philharmonic[/quote]

I saw Stefan Shulz give a master class in London and the one of the most impressive things was how clean his sound is.

S

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-12-18 4:05 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="BrianJohnston" post_id="134365" time="1608313494" user_id="9667">

In confused, i'm just giving my personal preferences on Bass Trombone sounds, which dynamic has a lot to do with.[/quote]

:good:
</QUOTE>

Alrighty then

Massimo69 · by **Massimo69** » 2021-03-25 7:57 a.m.

Hi bass trombone sound in jazz for me are George Roberts, Kenny Shroyer, Bill Reichenbach, Paul Faulise, Tony Studd... You need to hear those... Check out my cds with Bill Reichenbach together ala Jay and Kai two octaves below... Also check my books I will sell directly one of all The jazz bass trombone book by me...

Listen too much and develop your jazz sound in your head... This is more important of all kind of horns and mouthpiece... My personal choice on bass are Conn Elkhart sounds... 62h in first or ala George Roberts 70h... But if you don't have in your mind the real sound you will never found a good horn

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-03-25 2:24 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="paulyg" post_id="133969" time="1608040802" user_id="3299">
Most important thing about a bass trombone sound is intonation.[/quote]

Not inclination?

Chris
</QUOTE>

Time. i submit playing on time is most important because the horn conveys so much rhythmic content. Outa time bass is a disaster.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-03-25 2:35 p.m.

Articulation. Good, clean, precise articulation becomes the sound and carries through it. There's nothing worse than hearing flub-flub-flub.

vetsurginc · by **vetsurginc** » 2021-07-04 8:22 p.m.

Ben van Dijk, Smooth and clean.

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2023-02-27 11:24 p.m.

I realize this conversation has stopped a while ago. I didn’t take part in the conversation before and did not read all of the prior posts but understand if went off the rails for a bit until it came back with some very interesting posts.

Something that I am still amazed by is how one’s taste and preferences can change throughout the years. Several of the trombonists mentioned before were at some point the GOAT for me and I listened to them for hours…until I liked someone else a bit more.

Right now for me the most beautiful playing I listen to on recordings is done by James Markey. He has set the standard for bass trombone playing for years now and his virtuosity and his technical abilities have shocked me many years ago when I first listened to “on base”. However, it was not until about a year ago that I listened and really thought it myself “man, I LOVE his sound”.

Our tastes and preferences continue to develop as long as we try to listen with open ears every day and sometimes we find something new and special in something we have listened to already years ago. It’s beautiful, really.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2023-02-28 6:25 a.m.

One key thought on the general question around bass trombone sound - maybe already adressed by others:

Do trombones (or other instruments) really sound so substantially different if you just take a plain long tone and cut out/eliminate differences in e.g. recording technique, volume, starting/ending the note, vibrato etc.?

Or does the difference that most people hear (mostly) come from articulation, vibrato, other stylistic elements?

I am not saying there is no difference in the pure sound, but I am relatively sure that the majority what we talk about is largely driven by other aspects.

And that also spills over into many equipment discussions. E.g. a smaller/larger mouthpiece probably does have some impact on sound - and we would potentially make a general statement that it "sounds" better/brighter/darker/whatever - but the larger difference that we actually hear may be e.g. the beginning of the note/response that we get, how quickly we get a note to center, how comfortable it is to do things like vibrato, crescendo/decrescendo etc.

imsevimse · 2023-02-28 7:34 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]One key thought on the general question around bass trombone sound - maybe already adressed by others:

Do trombones (or other instruments) really sound so substantially different if you just take a plain long tone and cut out/eliminate differences in e.g. recording technique, volume, starting/ending the note, vibrato etc.?

Or does the difference that most people hear (mostly) come from articulation, vibrato, other stylistic elements?[/quote]

When I studied trombone at the Royal Academy of Music in Stockholm we did an experiment. A teacher had sounds on a tape recorder where he had cut out the start and the end of a note and then we the students should take a guess on what instrument it was. We couldn't, I mean we were wrong. Couldn't even hear the difference between a violin and a trombone, so yes you are right, the sound needs the start and the end too. Articulation is an important part of the sound...

[quote="MStarke"]And that also spills over into many equipment discussions. E.g. a smaller/larger mouthpiece probably does have some impact on sound - and we would potentially make a general statement that it "sounds" better/brighter/darker/whatever - but the larger difference that we actually hear may be e.g. the beginning of the note/response that we get, how quickly we get a note to center, how comfortable it is to do things like vibrato, crescendo/decrescendo etc.[/quote]

.... and vibrato, dynamics phrasing, and to change or expand a sound and the ability to do music with everything When I think of sound all this is included. It is not just a single sound from a player, and the color change a lot with the dynamics and mood.

/Tom

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2023-03-01 9:51 a.m.

Tom, thanks for these points!

That experiment you mentioned is what I remember reading or hearing somewhere before. That the very basic sound of just the sustained note is not very characteristic to differentiate.

And I find it totally normal that what we perceive much more than that as the overall sound and our preferences are build on all of it.

I just wanted to make the point that probably most people saying they prefer the sound of this and that trombone player actually mean many more factors than just the pure sound.

musicofnote · 2023-03-20 12:21 p.m.

content deleted by author

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2023-03-21 6:40 p.m.

I am primarily a Tenor Trombone player, But I do love playing Bass Trombone when the occasion arises.

When I started taking Bass Trombone seriously I had 3 sounds in my head that I`ve tried to emulate .

When I was in High School I had the privledge of studying for 2 summers with Don Knaub.

So that sound has stuck with me.

Then there were 2 players in Rochester that were FANTASTIC Bass Trombonists who I worked with a lot and LOVED Their sounds. Mike Purdy and Paul Able.

I have worked really hard to get a Nice round deep sound on Bass and try to base my sound on those 3 guys

On a side "note" - I was trying out a friends 72H a while ago and he looks at me and says .

"You have a nice tone, not a real power player. Shouldn`t Bass Trombone always hurt the conductor?"

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2023-03-22 5:32 p.m.

Dave Taylor on pretty much anything he’s been involved with the last 50 years.

Am re-enjoying the great Bob Mintzer Big Band from the ‘80s. Check out Dave ‘s great playing on album ‘Incredible Journey’. It sets a standard

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-03-24 6:06 p.m.

As of late, Christopher Davis has one of the best bass trombone tones i've ever heard.

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