Jazz triplet articulation
- mickael57280
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
Hi can someone tell me what's the common triplet articulation in jazz?
My jazz teacher is a sax player and can only tell me what's the best on what he hear when I articulate it or slur it.
I have an etude with one triplet and he prefer it when I slur it but can imagine it's possible if 2 or 3 triplet occur consecutivly.
My jazz teacher is a sax player and can only tell me what's the best on what he hear when I articulate it or slur it.
I have an etude with one triplet and he prefer it when I slur it but can imagine it's possible if 2 or 3 triplet occur consecutivly.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Sax players (and other non-trombone players) don't usually understand the logistics of trombone articulation. They switch a couple of fingers and a new note is formed. Articulation? Wazzat?
We have to figure out what makes sense. The most common jazz triplet you will see is one where the first and last notes are the same and the middle note is either higher or lower. Sometimes you can generate a slur using a partial change, like C-D-C above the bass staff. In this case, playing the D in 4th lets you execute a true slur rather than a smear or something that needs a legato tongue to prevent a rather ugly sound.
I tend to tongue triplets using a Ta-Dee-Ah (articulate the first note and try to use a partial change if possible for the second and third notes -- or legato tongue if you must).
If you are playing triplets like an Arban variation, you use a true triple tongue. That won't sound like jazz at all, but it's appropriate for that type of music.
Hope this helps.
We have to figure out what makes sense. The most common jazz triplet you will see is one where the first and last notes are the same and the middle note is either higher or lower. Sometimes you can generate a slur using a partial change, like C-D-C above the bass staff. In this case, playing the D in 4th lets you execute a true slur rather than a smear or something that needs a legato tongue to prevent a rather ugly sound.
I tend to tongue triplets using a Ta-Dee-Ah (articulate the first note and try to use a partial change if possible for the second and third notes -- or legato tongue if you must).
If you are playing triplets like an Arban variation, you use a true triple tongue. That won't sound like jazz at all, but it's appropriate for that type of music.
Hope this helps.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Pretty much all articulation depends on what notes they are, and what position possibilities there are. Often you'd articulate some notes but not others - and if you do the same figure in a different key it might change everything. Nobody said playing jazz was easy, especially on trombone. You have to do a lot of figuring out what works for YOU (and practicing it) because two people might make entirely different choices to play the same thing.
So... spell out the figure and I'll tell you how I would (might) play it.
So... spell out the figure and I'll tell you how I would (might) play it.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
For tonguing the best is likely doo-dle-ooo doo-dle-ooo doo-dle-ooo.
For slurring between partials a tongue position change can make it go, but some use breath.
And then some things you want to play may be best done using combinations of tongue and slur.
Having someone like Doug address specific figures might open up the topic.
For slurring between partials a tongue position change can make it go, but some use breath.
And then some things you want to play may be best done using combinations of tongue and slur.
Having someone like Doug address specific figures might open up the topic.
- Gary
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Jan 11, 2019
I think some of the answers are assuming what might be more than the question is, based on your backgrounds. The question is, " . . what's the common triplet articulation in jazz?". The basic articulation is usually slurred and usually is leading into another note. That's the what. The how is posted above.
To me, it's important to know what the notes should sound like so you use the proper why. This may be nitpicking, but the end goal determines the how.
For example, depending on context, some triplets are figures to be sounded just like traditional, Arban-like, figures. Others have a different goal. I just point this out because I think it's important to know what you want to achieve.
To me, it's important to know what the notes should sound like so you use the proper why. This may be nitpicking, but the end goal determines the how.
For example, depending on context, some triplets are figures to be sounded just like traditional, Arban-like, figures. Others have a different goal. I just point this out because I think it's important to know what you want to achieve.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
For me there is no single common triplet articulation - it depends entirely on the context. I think it's useful and important to be familiar with every possible style of tonguing, but also realize that many times certain notes in a figure wouldn't be tongued, but "articulated" by a lip slur, usually on a downward interval crossing a partial.
So yes, as Gary said "the end goal determines the how."
So yes, as Gary said "the end goal determines the how."
- mickael57280
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
It's on a snidero etude B Bb Ab F, I play 4,5,3,1 all slurred.
And this JJ transcription on the 2nd and 3rd line from the top and the 2nd from the bottom.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.google.com/search?q=jj+john ... aecYlKBVSM">https://www.google.com/search?q=jj+johnson+transcription&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuyMXIrcbhAhW65OAKHQGtC0cQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ#imgrc=-JnfaecYlKBVSM</LINK_TEXT>
And this JJ transcription on the 2nd and 3rd line from the top and the 2nd from the bottom.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.google.com/search?q=jj+john ... aecYlKBVSM">https://www.google.com/search?q=jj+johnson+transcription&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuyMXIrcbhAhW65OAKHQGtC0cQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ#imgrc=-JnfaecYlKBVSM</LINK_TEXT>
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
On the JJ, I would do a standard legato triple tongue on pretty much all of that. I have developed a very legado double and triple tongue with a soft D&G so that it sounds almost like doodle tonguing because I can't actually doodle tongue.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
JJ certainly doodled that, but you may find something else that works. There are lots of other triplets you may want to play, and depending on where they are on the horn you may find different solutions for them.
The figure you cite I recall Fontana playing exactly, also doodled.
The figure you cite I recall Fontana playing exactly, also doodled.
- Doubler
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Jan 07, 2019
da-da-DAH-ah-da-DAH-ah-da-DAH-ah-da-DA, emphasizing the third note of each triplet is how I usually swing triplets. As Duke Ellington expounded musically: "It don't mean a thing...."
Good advice has already been given: Experiment and get so you can play any combination of emphases that appropriately fits the tune. Synchopation is ear-catching. Play so the audience can hear your thoughts.
Good advice has already been given: Experiment and get so you can play any combination of emphases that appropriately fits the tune. Synchopation is ear-catching. Play so the audience can hear your thoughts.
- mickael57280
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
Doug what do you mean when you said ''legato triple tongue'' for me legato is using no tongue for switching partials or using a LA articulation when notes are on same partial.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
A very light D-D-G. I practice it so lightly that it almost sounds like no tongue at all.
- mickael57280
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
Thank you Doug.
I don't know why, but slurring triplet, especially 2 or more consecutivly, if I slur all it sound like it lack definition, a little mushy.
I don't know why, but slurring triplet, especially 2 or more consecutivly, if I slur all it sound like it lack definition, a little mushy.
- Claudio
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Dec 03, 2021
[quote="baileyman"]JJ certainly doodled that...[/quote]
Ah, I've read (I don't remember where) that JJJ never used the doodle technique, so I'm very happy to know this Is false, because I' m trying with no success to emulate him by using tradizionale staccato/legato. Unfortunately my doodle tonguing Is not yet skill enough... But may be in the future I will improving my doodle technique.
Ah, I've read (I don't remember where) that JJJ never used the doodle technique, so I'm very happy to know this Is false, because I' m trying with no success to emulate him by using tradizionale staccato/legato. Unfortunately my doodle tonguing Is not yet skill enough... But may be in the future I will improving my doodle technique.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
JJ has been contentious for decades now. He often said he didn't doodle, but there is a late in life interview where he says he did use what people call doodle. I do not hear in his playing a really good triple, though, else I think he would have used it more. And I don't hear much change-up in his articulation. It's almost legit in its on-the-beat-ness. Why didn't he use much off-beat pickups? It's super easy if one can doodle just a little to do three note pickups of the form "du-doo-dl" ahead of a downbeat. And I do not think I have ever heard his use of the articulation on the wrong part of the beat. Like, doodle starting on the "and", or "doodl-oo" triplet form in duple time in the middle of some "doodle"s in duple time, where the accent naturally gets off the beat in unusual ways. These kind of uses I think of as "funky". What I hear in him is decidedly not very funky, pretty square, almost legit, declarative like an oration. It's strange given how close he was to Dizzy, who was funky as ****.
Fontana suggested starting on easy notes as in Arban's but at a fairly brisk tempo and aim for note separation. It's possible for these things to really pop. And they can be soft or loud. It's a great exploration.
Fontana suggested starting on easy notes as in Arban's but at a fairly brisk tempo and aim for note separation. It's possible for these things to really pop. And they can be soft or loud. It's a great exploration.
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
Get Bob Mchesney’s doodle book
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
If doodling is a problem for you as it is for me, I suggest practicing and ultra legato triple tongue.
Doodle tonguing successfully requires a certain dental structure that apparently I don't have. I think my lower jaw structure is too narrow for the width of my tongue and I just can't make it work despite decades of trying.
Doodle tonguing successfully requires a certain dental structure that apparently I don't have. I think my lower jaw structure is too narrow for the width of my tongue and I just can't make it work despite decades of trying.
- Claudio
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Dec 03, 2021
[quote="Doug Elliott"]If doodling is a problem for you as it is for me, I suggest practicing and ultra legato triple tongue...[/quote]
my legato triple tongue is very ugly, i'm practising something similar to doodle but not yet correct.
I'm studying JJJ's Blue Trombone at the moment.
Apparently the speed difference is not huge. I may afford (with still some errors) 100bpm vs the original 144bpm, let me say I need to play about 44% more quickly, it is very difficult now, but not impossible ( I hope :-) )
Anyway thank you a lot for suggestions
my legato triple tongue is very ugly, i'm practising something similar to doodle but not yet correct.
I'm studying JJJ's Blue Trombone at the moment.
Apparently the speed difference is not huge. I may afford (with still some errors) 100bpm vs the original 144bpm, let me say I need to play about 44% more quickly, it is very difficult now, but not impossible ( I hope :-) )
Anyway thank you a lot for suggestions
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]If doodling is a problem for you as it is for me, I suggest practicing and ultra legato triple tongue.
Doodle tonguing successfully requires a certain dental structure that apparently I don't have. I think my lower jaw structure is too narrow for the width of my tongue and I just can't make it work despite decades of trying.[/quote]
May be worthwhile revisiting with a little air in the cheeks to lift them off the teeth a bit.
Doodle tonguing successfully requires a certain dental structure that apparently I don't have. I think my lower jaw structure is too narrow for the width of my tongue and I just can't make it work despite decades of trying.[/quote]
May be worthwhile revisiting with a little air in the cheeks to lift them off the teeth a bit.