Finding the custom horn for me

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-18 8:53 p.m.

Freshman in college here, and I'm thinking about starting the search for the "be all, end all" trombone. I'm on a Packer 332o currently and I love the tone I get from it, it just feels so cumbersome to play (slide is quite heavy). When I'll buy is a different discussion, but I'd at least like to start my search. I'm here in SW Ohio and looking to plan a big roadtrip to play on some of the finest horns out there. So far on my list are Rettig Music and Buckeye Brass here in OH, BAC and Brass Exchange in MO, and possibly M&W in WI. The trombones I'm looking to try are various by Greenhoe, Shires, Edwards, Rath, M&W (if I decide to detour there), and obviously BAC. Does anyone have any worthwhile brands or shops that I should look into for my journey? And if possible, does anyone know of a horn that could fit me based on the problems I'm facing currently? No intention to be blunt, but I've tried 88s, 42s, 4/5bs, Holtons and the such and they're just not something I could see playing for as long as I play, and I think I'm ready to start the transition to finding something perfect for me.

Thanks a ton,

-Austin

Trevorspaulding376 · by **Trevorspaulding376** » 2019-04-18 9:17 p.m.

Do you know that you will always be on a large bore ? After college not sure it’s so much a nerd unless you are doing symphonic work , I’ve played in community bands on small bore horns and for my fun I enjoy the small horns better just think long term post college what type of playing you will be doing, it could change a lot between now and then. As a freshmen , you prob don’t want this advice , but unless you are like some Juliard type crazy good trombone player I’d hold off and buy a tried and true pro level horn like a good 42b and save the money on a custom for further down the road when you know what you will be playing post college , my 2 cents , I did have a middle school colleague that was a grade older that did get a scholarship to juliard for trombone and plays in symphony’s now , he plays the Alessi model large bore by Edwards , maybe before going custom try some of the stock configurations on like a shires q series large bore or one of the “stock “ horns by the boutique makers and then change out parts as you go

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-18 9:36 p.m.

Shires Q is high on my list, and Dillon has some used custom Shires up for around the same pricing as a Q. I'm not a crazy good prodigy by any means, I just don't want to buy a 42 and have to turn around and sell it when I'm ready for a true custom horn. And I'm very fairly certain I'll be on a large bore for many years. That's what I'm aiming at with this trip I'm planning. Just to get a real feeling of what kind of horn is for me as I'm completely green in the world of boutique horns.

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2019-04-18 9:36 p.m.

Give Royalton music at https://www.royaltonmusic.com.

It is up near Cleveland. Look at Yamaha 446/446 and Courtois AC260/280. Good values.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2019-04-18 9:44 p.m.

Not to be negative but if you are talking about a serious orchestra career, one of those brands is not like the other. How many top notch professionals are using a BAC vs how many play a Bach 42 (which it seems you think is inferior) of some flavor?

Also if you improve a fair amount, you'll change a fair amount and your needs will change a fiat amount. I would listen to Trevor on this one.

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-18 9:51 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]Not to be negative but if you are talking about a serious orchestra career, one of those brands is not like the other. How many top notch professionals are using a BAC vs how many play a Bach 42 (which it seems you think is inferior) of some flavor?

Also if you improve a fair amount, you'll change a fair amount and your needs will change a fiat amount. I would listen to Trevor on this one.[/quote]
Might as well try them out if I'm already in the state was my ideology. And by no means is a 42 "inferior" in my eyes, I've played on plenty. The horn just doesn't sit with me well to say it best. Like I said before, I'm just trying to inform myself of these horns and how they play with me personally at the moment.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-04-18 9:54 p.m.

Don't waste your time looking for the holy grail at this point in your life, primarily because the idea that a holy grail exists is just a figment of your desire for shiny stuff right now. You can't understand custom horn offerings until you understand what a standard 36b or 6h is all about. You don't know why M&W is better than Shires until you've played a beat up Beuscher. If you don't know the difference between the standard 88h and 42b, you really don't have the base line you need to understand anything else, hardware wise in the trombone world. You might look at it as just an education about what is out there. Your needs will change before you graduate, and they'll change again after that. The 332 is probably not holding you back, and in reality, it could serve you well for the next 30 years. I know kids get bored with stuff easily and always think they deserve something new. I play the same horn now that I played in jr high school (88h), but I had to waste a lot of time and money to appreciate it like I do now. You'll eventually grow out of that conceit. Forget BAC, the cake decorator. Brass Exchange is a good place to see a range of stuff, but Dillons in NY would be a better place.

As the other poster mentioned, try to have an open mind. Not just about bore, but everything. It might turn out that your all time favorite horn is a 1932 Conn 32h with no lacquer and a dented tuning slide. It's ok to have multiple favorites. The idea that you'll only ever play a 547 is a weird preconception forced by academics with an extremely limited focus. There is a lot of playing to be done out there that does not have to involve a large bore tenor.

JoeStanko · by **JoeStanko** » 2019-04-18 9:56 p.m.

[quote="Trevorspaulding376"]but unless you are like some Juliard type crazy good trombone player I’d hold off and buy a tried and true pro level horn like a good 42b and save the money on a custom for further down the road when you know what you will be playing post college , my 2 cents , I did have a middle school colleague that was a grade older that did get a scholarship to juliard for trombone[/quote]

It’s spelled Juilliard on my diploma.

Trevorspaulding376 · by **Trevorspaulding376** » 2019-04-18 10:03 p.m.

Whatever I didn’t go there... my bad

JoeStanko · by **JoeStanko** » 2019-04-18 10:18 p.m.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt..whatever..

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-04-18 10:20 p.m.

I think you can do better than the Packer 332, but you might need more than one horn. For example, a small tenor, a .525 and a .547. Maybe a bass and, if you’re so inclined, an alto.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2019-04-18 10:59 p.m.

Some wise advice above that's worth listening to. You just started college and as much as that feels like you're getting closer, it's actually likely that you're still only about halfway between the day you first started playing trombone and the day you'll be starting a career. You *might* get a horn you'll play for the rest of your life, but you might also very well get a fancy new horn that won't fit your needs in 2 years... My advice would be, if you really feel you need a different horn, do try instruments, of many different kinds, but with an open mind, and focus on used instruments that you can resell for the same price if in a year it no longer fits your needs. You sneer at 42s and 88Hs but just as many people move back to those horns after playing "fancier" custom horns than the other way around. There's a reason they have been industry standards for decades and are still played by hundreds of professional players...

Don't spent 4500-6000 on an instrument that will lose half its resale value almost the minute you buy it. Get a good horn with good value for the price and don't waste your money on looking for the holy grail, you're gonna need that money a) when you realize that trying to make a living playing trombone is tough, financially b) when you realize that you need way more instruments than you ever thought you'd need (and the number never stops increasing) c) when you get to the point where you actually truly know what you need from an instrument and then actually do have good reasons to make the investment (which there's no way you do now, with all respect. We all think we've got it figured out when we reach the point you're at, but really the more we learn the more we get realize just how clueless we are).

ChadA · by **ChadA** » 2019-04-18 11:26 p.m.

If you’re in SW Ohio, go to ITF in Muncie Indiana and try lots of horns. Before that, talk to your college teacher for advice. I’m in SW Ohio, too, if I can be of any help.

JLivi · by **JLivi** » 2019-04-18 11:30 p.m.

[quote="thetuningslide"]Might as well try them out if I'm already in the state was my ideology. And by no means is a 42 "inferior" in my eyes, I've played on plenty. The horn just doesn't sit with me well to say it best. Like I said before, I'm just trying to inform myself of these horns and how they play with me personally at the moment.[/quote]

In my experience, Bach trombones in general don't sit well with me either. The slotting on any Bach I've tried (16, 36, 42, 50) has always been weird and causes me to be inaccurate. I think the wide crook has something to do with it.

A lot of these responses are beginning to sound more parental than anything. Don't take the "talking down to" personally. We're all here to help you regardless of the tone of the response. But I do agree with what some of the people here are saying. Most importantly, take time on your road trip to feel what makes each horn you play different from each other. You might even find that some of these boutique shops are using specs from the industry standards (Conn, Bach, etc). You'll eventually find what you're looking for, but don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen on this road trip. But who knows, it might!

I'm super jealous of your road trip :-)

One thing you can think about too, if you want to save time and money (maybe) is go to the Midwest Clinic in Chicago. Every horn company is there where there best stuff. It's not like NAMM, but it's big.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-04-18 11:39 p.m.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt..whatever..

The point isn't without merit whether one knows how to spell the name of a school or not. It depends on your career aspirations and your present level of development. If you're at one of the "top" music schools there's a good chance you're developed enough to actually be stable to a certain degree with regard to your development. If you aren't, there's a good chance you'll make a lot of changes with how you play throughout college. When I started college, the 8820 was a great horn for me but I quickly outgrew it, which isn't to say that the Yamaha is a bad horn but my playing changed such that it no longer worked for me very well by sophomore year. I also did not go to The Juilliard, for what it's worth.

With that all in mind, the Shires Q series that others have mentioned is a really good deal for someone in your position. It's modular with existing components and is a very common setup so even if it isn't perfect for you now, it's a good bet that if it was perfect for you now, it wouldn't be perfect by the time you got to senior year. But you get it now and practice on it and in a few years you pick up a used component here and there or even buy it new and you still come out ahead unless you basically swap the whole horn out. Additionally, if you graduate and aren't doing the audition circuit and want a medium bore, you can get a 525 or 525/547 slide for it without modification.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-04-19 12:53 a.m.

If you have money to spend on a trip, go to the ITF July 10-13 in Muncie IN. It is well worth it just to attend the clinics and concerts, but you can also try just about every horn there is, all in one place.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-04-19 3:35 a.m.

You will NEVER find THE trombone.

There, I've said it and I bet most of the pros here were thinking it.

You get a good instrument that you know is used in the contexts that you want to work in by pro players, then you work at it, to get to know it and to get the best out of it. Many young players get a very slotted instrument that sounds good in a small room.... then gradually they realise the limitations of that kind of set up. If you are really smart you will get your professor to select a trombone for you.

Chris

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2019-04-19 4:28 a.m.

<ATTACHMENT filename="mkay.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~mkay.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-04-19 7:11 a.m.

[quote="blast"]You will NEVER find THE trombone.....If you are really smart you will get your professor to select a trombone for you.[/quote]

This is completely untrue. And while a suggestion from a teachers is good, I let no one spend my money for me, not even my wife (and since shes not on here to disagree, I can stick to that :lol:)

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-04-19 8:43 a.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="83149" time="1555659303" user_id="52">
You will NEVER find THE trombone.....If you are really smart you will get your professor to select a trombone for you.[/quote]

This is completely untrue...
</QUOTE>

Please elaborate.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-04-19 9:03 a.m.

I think this is going to boil down to pedantics to a large degree. What is a 'perfect' horn? For what length of time is it perfect?

If you're an active professional... or even just an active player... there's a good chance what you are playing is going to change at least every few years. New venues, new ensembles, etc. For example, for a period of time, Matt Guilford with the NSO used a Monette mouthpiece and some kind of dependent Shires perhaps(?) that worked really well for the hall. Then if I'm recalling the story right, the hall underwent some renovation which caused the acoustics to shift. What was previously the 'perfect' setup for that environment no longer worked and now he play son something quite different than that setup. And even for the amateur player... you suddenly go from 3rd to 1st bone in the local big band etc. What may have worked swimmingly well for years suddenly isn't quit cutting it.

The other side of that coin is to lower the resolution for what perfect means; which is to say that the definition of perfect is perhaps more akin to what the marketing of the T396 indicates where the horn is 'good enough' basically anywhere or flexible enough that it can be optimized for what you primarily do and then good enough for the edge cases.

I think they can both be quite reasonable definitions of 'perfect'.

Specialk3700 · by **Specialk3700** » 2019-04-19 9:31 a.m.

I would just pick up a shires q series or a used Edwards/Shires for a good price. In 3-5 years you're more than likely going to want another horn so I wouldn't take the loss of getting one fitted for you.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-04-19 9:54 a.m.

I keep thinking the “end all be all” horn is not a .547 but, rather, something along the lines of a King 3B/F or a Bach 36. Frankly, if the linkage was a little more conventional/comfortable, the King would be as close to perfect as one is likely to find. And DJ could send you a nice one for not very many dollars.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-04-19 11:53 a.m.

Road trip to try horns is not too efficient. ITF is maybe a better way to go to try new horns. Most if not all of those horns will be there.

BAC -- they make a good horn, called the Elliott Mason model. The special brace/grip on the outer slide is like a wire, and is not that comfortable. But it plays really nice. I don't think it's what most college music students need unless they are really jazz focused and already trying to come to grips with switching from a .547 to a small bore.

I think a road trip is a bad idea, and even ITF can be somewhat limiting, for this reason:

The longer your trip goes, the longer it will have been since you practiced under normal conditions. On a road trip, you will probably begin dehydrating immediately, and practicing in a hotel is limiting or not allowed. By the time you get to warm up on your own horn at a shop prior to trying horns, the Taco Bell, coffee, and car sunburns will have taken a toll. You might think something is amazing, but after you get back to normal at home it might turn out to be not so great. Likewise at ITF, you might not be traveling much while there, but you won't be practicing normally, eating or drinking normally, and when you do test a horn, there will be 100 people all blasting "The Big A's" all around you at 137Db.

Custom horns and mouthpieces are great. They can help you get the sound you're after pretty easily if you know how to objectively test them. Bring a friend who knows.

Regarding the 88H:

http://www.tarrodi.se/cl/index.asp?show=15

Used horns can be great. If I was a college freshman, I'd start trying all my buddies' horns. You probably will quickly find out if you fall into one of the Edwards, Shires, or Rath camps. If that's the case, you're in luck because you can piece a horn together used for a lot less.

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-19 1:40 p.m.

Thanks for all the replies. Just to once again clarify, I don't have any resentment towards Conn or Bach trombones, they're great horns and I like playing on them, just not things I want to try and justify myself to spend a couple thousand on. Shires Q is a really bi competitor in my book, but I've heard Shires horns in general play bright which isn't exactly what I go for, someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Conns feel somewhat too lightweight to me in how the play. Like there's not enough material to resonate how I want it to, and 42s I don't particularly like the slotting on some notes as previously mentioned by someone. Like I said, I love the sound of my 332 but it feels heavy and cumbersome in the slide. As for trying my buddies' horns, all my studio mates play a 42 or an 88 (with a 4b and a 165f sprinkled in), so I've played the 2 extensively. BAC isn't a good idea anymore I now realize but I still want to go out to try some horns. ITF is an idea, but that time of year will be very busy for me as I have to set up housing for next semester.

Fun fact: my prof (Jaime) will be playing there, more reason for me to go.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-04-19 1:45 p.m.

I’m sure you can set up a Shires to play any way you want.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-04-19 2:01 p.m.

I'm surprised an entire studio is on 42s and 88Hs

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-19 2:08 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I'm surprised an entire studio is on 42s and 88Hs[/quote]
It's surprising indeed. One of my freshman buddies plays on Jaime's old 42 actually, there's another 42 player that plays a newer one, the top 2 chairs play an 88h and an 88hcl, I think one benge and one king, and Jaime himself plays on a courtois.
[quote="Bach5G"]I’m sure you can set up a Shires to play any way you want.[/quote]
I'll keep that in mind when I try some out, thanks.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-04-19 2:26 p.m.

Shires Q is a really bi competitor in my book, but I've heard Shires horns in general play bright which isn't exactly what I go for, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

You'll also hear exactly the opposite. What happens is that someone tries a horn at a convention and generally assumes modular makers are like solid state horns (soldered together) where there are a small set of possible options that generally play fairly similar to one another because they come as models (like the Bach 42, Conn 88, YSL8820 etc.). Just the stock leadpipe options on the modular makers makes a substantial difference in how one plays, let alone all the other parts. You can get a 'dud' if you put together an entire set of parts that is not very complimentary, but buying a used horn blind without playing it is somewhat risky regardless of the manufacturer.

That isn't to say the Shires Q is going to be the end all be all horn or that you'll end up on Shires if you go for that but it's a sensible set of components that can be easily swapped out which is a real plus. In your position, you are also likely to find a used pro horn at a good price that fits the bill. It also isn't likely to be the end all be all either but it'll be cheaper. The 88s you've tried are possibly all say, an 88LT. Even between models of the same horn that have a small set of possible combinations, there is a surprisingly wide variation in how any give horn plays. In other words, I wouldn't necessarily rule anything out but if I were buying blind I'd go with the Q or try to make it out to a convention like the ITF. Or find someway to try out a used horn that you intend on buying. Dillon Music has an entire room filled with used horns. Brassark offers a return policy and has a pretty killer collection of used stuff too.

mfellows821 · by **mfellows821** » 2019-04-19 3:11 p.m.

Get advice from your instructors. Do NOT automatically assume they know what is good for you. A good number are totally prejudiced for or against certain horns. Finding the holy grail is almost impossible because your playing and ideas do change. Bachs tend to be VERY inconsistant. The best ones are superb, the worst are OK. Yamahas are pretty much exactly alike- all good. The custom horns will have to be evaluated part by part and that takes some real time- not just a few minutes at ITF which IS a great place for intial exposure. Sadly you will not know whether you made the right choice for several months after you start playing on your new horn and if you go modular they can be a money pit as you try something different a bit down the road. I would go to ITF, try a bundh and narrow it down a bit then find a place you can spend time with your choices- maybe even a money back return policy.

I strongly suggest adding Adams to your list (it is somewhat modular as well). I have owned everything you list at one time or another, love my Greenhoe, but am really struggling whether it is better for me than the Adams I bought because it blew me away at a convention.

Good new is that all the trombones mentioned are very good to great instruments and will help your playing a few percentage points. You are the other 98%.

mfellows821 · by **mfellows821** » 2019-04-19 3:42 p.m.

And don't ignore Rath trombones. their custom horns are as good or better than the ones mentioned above

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-19 6:52 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE>Shires Q is a really bi competitor in my book, but I've heard Shires horns in general play bright which isn't exactly what I go for, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]

You'll also hear exactly the opposite. What happens is that someone tries a horn at a convention and generally assumes modular makers are like solid state horns (soldered together) where there are a small set of possible options that generally play fairly similar to one another because they come as models (like the Bach 42, Conn 88, YSL8820 etc.). Just the stock leadpipe options on the modular makers makes a substantial difference in how one plays, let alone all the other parts. You can get a 'dud' if you put together an entire set of parts that is not very complimentary, but buying a used horn blind without playing it is somewhat risky regardless of the manufacturer.

That isn't to say the Shires Q is going to be the end all be all horn or that you'll end up on Shires if you go for that but it's a sensible set of components that can be easily swapped out which is a real plus. In your position, you are also likely to find a used pro horn at a good price that fits the bill. It also isn't likely to be the end all be all either but it'll be cheaper. The 88s you've tried are possibly all say, an 88LT. Even between models of the same horn that have a small set of possible combinations, there is a surprisingly wide variation in how any give horn plays. In other words, I wouldn't necessarily rule anything out but if I were buying blind I'd go with the Q or try to make it out to a convention like the ITF. Or find someway to try out a used horn that you intend on buying. Dillon Music has an entire room filled with used horns. Brassark offers a return policy and has a pretty killer collection of used stuff too.
</QUOTE>
That's one of the reasons I loved the sound of a Shires Q with its interchangeability with custom Shires parts. I might end up going to the east coast instead to play on some horns at Dillon and some other good places I can find. Thanks for the advice
[quote="mfellows821"]Get advice from your instructors. Do NOT automatically assume they know what is good for you. A good number are totally prejudiced for or against certain horns. Finding the holy grail is almost impossible because your playing and ideas do change. Bachs tend to be VERY inconsistant. The best ones are superb, the worst are OK. Yamahas are pretty much exactly alike- all good. The custom horns will have to be evaluated part by part and that takes some real time- not just a few minutes at ITF which IS a great place for intial exposure. Sadly you will not know whether you made the right choice for several months after you start playing on your new horn and if you go modular they can be a money pit as you try something different a bit down the road. I would go to ITF, try a bundh and narrow it down a bit then find a place you can spend time with your choices- maybe even a money back return policy.

I strongly suggest adding Adams to your list (it is somewhat modular as well). I have owned everything you list at one time or another, love my Greenhoe, but am really struggling whether it is better for me than the Adams I bought because it blew me away at a convention.

Good new is that all the trombones mentioned are very good to great instruments and will help your playing a few percentage points. You are the other 98%.[/quote]Hadn't even considered Adams yet, thanks for bringing them to my attention. And I'm very well aware that my playing is based a vast majority on my skill level, sometimes I like to practice a bit on one of my student horns just to remind myself of that
[quote="mfellows821"]And don't ignore Rath trombones. their custom horns are as good or better than the ones mentioned above[/quote]
Not at all, that's for sure. I'll definitely look into whatever I can get my hands on.

Fafner · by **Fafner** » 2019-04-20 9:28 a.m.

With higher end professional playing in the northeast it seems everyone uses Edwards or Shires with the occasional Greenhoe or Bach sprinkled in. Occasionally you'll see some Conn when downsizing--I'd never recommend taking an audition on one. I agree with Bruce that you'll never find "THE" horn. If you actually pursue a professional career you're going to need to buy another horn or two down the road.

I think the real reason you don't see as many people playing Bach these days is that you have to spend as much money or more setting it up how you like it as you would just buying a Shires or Edwards to start with.

There were trends where a lot of people played Rath for a while but no one does anymore. Seems like the same is happening in NY with Courtois horns (I'm Boston based so that is just an outsider's perspective on occasional gigs with NY people).

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-04-20 10:30 a.m.

[quote="Fafner"]With higher end professional playing in the northeast it seems everyone uses Edwards or Shires with the occasional Greenhoe or Bach sprinkled in. Occasionally you'll see some Conn when downsizing--I'd never recommend taking an audition on one. I agree with Bruce that you'll never find "THE" horn. If you actually pursue a professional career you're going to need to buy another horn or two down the road.

I think the real reason you don't see as many people playing Bach these days is that you have to spend as much money or more setting it up how you like it as you would just buying a Shires or Edwards to start with.[/quote]

I've played some really good Conns and Bachs for that matter. Though the best playing 88 I've played did have some modifications done to it. Bell section was reassembled (and open-wrapped fwiw) and had an Edwards pipe (made pressfit) in it. I think the advantage and primary reason you see such a plethora of modular horns is that they can be adapted to the player more easily. But you still see numerous horns with relatively few options in the pro world (Yamaha, Bachs, Conns (particularly in Europe)). For those individuals for who they work, they work really well and so if one works well ('pefectly' I dare say) for you, that's great news because you saved ~$1-$3k!

There were trends where a lot of people played Rath for a while but no one does anymore. Seems like the same is happening in NY with Courtois horns (I'm Boston based so that is just an outsider's perspective on occasional gigs with NY people).

I'm not sure how much you can derive from that other than it being a large, but still niche market. Despite being a huge city with lots of trombonists, its still a small sample. Conrad Herwig is on Rath still if I"m not mistaken and he is definitely not a nobody!! :biggrin: Similarly, the NY Met plays on Courtouis. So on and so forth. There are a lot of options out there and there's more than one way to skin a cat. Unfortunately, people do sometimes hear with their eyes which is oddly enough one of the advantages I've found to having all franken horns is people actually don't know what to think about anything I bring anywhere so they actually evaluate it instead of assuming they won't blend with something because of brand or that it's too [insert something they heard secondhand] about that brand, etc.!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-04-20 11:38 a.m.

Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-04-20 1:05 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.[/quote]

Of course you can! But setting up the dates would take a lot of time.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-04-20 1:19 p.m.

Lol, the Piccola. Good one!

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-20 3:51 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.[/quote]
THAT would be a fun trip :D I fly a lot for family reasons (my mom's filipino and has family everywhere), so if I have a chance to go to Europe (which I definitely will some time or another), trombones will definitely be a priority.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2019-04-20 6:47 p.m.

My experience with makers in Europe is they are typically much smaller operations than in the US, and they are very welcoming of people stopping by (best with an appointment of course) to try instruments and visit the workshop. The market here tends to be a lot more based on direct sales from the maker to the client, instead of going through dealers, so their business kind of relies on having people come over to try instruments. Some of those places are one-man shops (or nearly) so coordinating dates can be challenging.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2019-04-20 7:02 p.m.

There’s no such thing as perfect. To see proof of that just look at the top tier pros in your desired field and look at how often they make either major or minor changes. To even remotely think you could pick a perfect horn for your future, as a college freshman, is so loaded with hubris that I don’t really know where to start. So I’m just going to leave it there. There’s no such thing as perfect. Not really even a ballpark of perfect.

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2019-04-20 8:26 p.m.

Food for thought: http://peterellefson.com/blog.html

Read his recent blog on equipment. Great wisdom being disseminated for free.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-04-21 4:25 a.m.

[quote="castrubone"]Food for thought: http://peterellefson.com/blog.html

Read his recent blog on equipment. Great wisdom being disseminated for free.[/quote]

Peter is full of great wisdom period. Glad it's not just me that thinks that sounds have gone wrong.... and it's a pain to have to work with such sounds.

Chris

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-04-21 6:36 a.m.

Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff!

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-04-21 7:44 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.[/quote]
====

I had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. It is a great horn but the ergonomics killed me and I had to sell it. It's very front heavy, and if it were not for that, I'd still have it.

====

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-04-21 8:53 a.m.

BAC will indeed make whatever you want.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-04-21 1:10 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff![/quote]

What you call negativity some of us call good advice. Practise and taking lessons with good teachers is FAR more important than some fancy trombone that is a triumph of hype over reality.

Nothing negative about that.

Chris

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-04-21 1:26 p.m.

[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="83296" time="1555843018" user_id="4931">
Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff![/quote]

What you call negativity some of us call good advice. Practise and taking lessons with good teachers is FAR more important than some fancy trombone that is a triumph of hype over reality.

Nothing negative about that.

Chris
</QUOTE>

The guy asked about a horn, not about teachers. So in this case, sorry, no.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-04-21 2:25 p.m.

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2019-04-21 3:20 p.m.

Austin........

I get it . You're not ready to buy yet, but you want to learn as much as you can about different trombones; you can't have too much knowledge. Even if your preferences change in the future, you'll have a mental data base for a reference. Better yet, make yourself a little write-up as you try each horn, just so that they don't all run together in your head down the road. If you want, you could even take your Packer along to use as a benchmark for rating each trial horn. Sounds like a great trip. Play as many horns as you can, and have fun !!!! All the heavy duty stuff discussed above can come later.

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-21 6:20 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff![/quote]
Thanks for all the great ideas! I'm taking this trip with the most open mind possible. I'm planning on trying many bachs and conns as well that most of these stores undoubtedly have. And I'm no stranger to "negative" comments. Most people here have much more experience and skill than I so I generally try to take the most I can from them all. Where are you located by the way?
[quote="CharlieB"]Austin........

I get it . You're not ready to buy yet, but you want to learn as much as you can about different trombones; you can't have too much knowledge. Even if your preferences change in the future, you'll have a mental data base for a reference. Better yet, make yourself a little write-up as you try each horn, just so that they don't all run together in your head down the road. If you want, you could even take your Packer along to use as a benchmark for rating each trial horn. Sounds like a great trip. Play as many horns as you can, and have fun !!!! All the heavy duty stuff discussed above can come later.[/quote]
Interesting, I didn't think of writing my thoughts on each, that sounds very helpful. And I fully anticipate bringing my current horn to compare against.

CornyBone · by **CornyBone** » 2019-04-23 12:13 a.m.

Wow... this is quite a thread.

Not that you need my 2 cents. But as a senior in college, I was in your exact position 3 years ago. My gear wasn't working for me, and it was noticeably holding me back. I think this trip your taking is an awesome idea. It's a really great chance to get a real sense what there is available out there. If something's not working for you (and you have the financial means to change) then change it. However, I'd suggest you don't go in looking for a "be all, end all" horn. Because as basically everyone else said, that not what you're going to get right now. Find something that works for you NOW (preferably with a good resale value, used instruments are a very good option) and reassess a little further down the road. I personally switched from a Bach 36 to a Conn 88h my freshman year, and then to a Shires last summer, a lot can change in four years as a student. However, I can assure you I improved a lot faster (which is necessary in college) when I had equipment that was working with me, not against me. I hope your trip goes well!

P.S. It might've already been said. Your professor is a helpful resource, but they are human, and have their own biases, both when it comes to instrument manufactures, and even sometimes in how they want you to sound. The person who should be making the final decision is you. Trust your ear (unless you're trying carbon fiber trombones, then all bets are off)

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-04-23 8:31 p.m.

Well, officially registered for ITF. Looking forward to possibly seeing some of you there. Probably going Friday and Saturday.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2019-04-24 10:58 a.m.

Have fun at ITF! You can try everything and have a better idea.

In college I had an R4F which I loved. But after school I realized I wasn’t doing many orchestral jobs. If you are dedicated to that path than the recommended horns everyone else has discussed would be great (Conn, Bach, Shires!, Rath!!).

Unless you win an audition in the future and/or dedicate yourself to symphonic playing, you may end up just selling your new .547 to get a few more used horns, more sounds in your arsenal depending on the job. I eventually sold my Rath which helped me get a used Bach 36B, conn 88h when I need .547, and a couple small bores.

Definitely find your “dream” horn setup if possible at ITF and then test that sound (take voice memo recordings if it isn’t too loud in there ha!) against some vintage horns at a shop. You may find yourself preferring the cheaper used horn and have more money to buy other equipment (euphonium? Tuba? Recording equipment?).

BAC quality is way up the last few years, great team, and mike makes great horns. But in my opinion it’s better to have a few years freelancing really honing in what music you are playing and developing your sound concept before you make a trip to KC and have a horn made. I made the mistake of getting one of his horns too early in my career and ended up not being happy. Live and learn. I know that day will come for you!

By the way, visited Inderbinens shop last week while on tour in Europe. The horns are AMAZING!!!! He has a new Piccola Nera (lighter bell played better than the original Weight bell to me) with carbon fiber outer slide tubes he prototypes. It is a monster. And has a balance weight on the outer slide sleeve which helps balance it out. The 8.5 inch bell Ballet w f attachment is also beautiful! But a bit heavy... May have to sell all of my other trombones to buy one. The hype is real, those bells sing!

u_2bobone · 2019-04-24 1:26 p.m.

How clearly I remember one of my most influential teachers, Karl Rucht, who at the age of 18 was principal trumpet of The Berlin Philharmonic, saying, "Robert -- The instrument CANNOT change -- YOU must change" ! Fast forward to today and the absolute opposite can apply. With the plethora of bell materials, slide materials, dual radii & single radius slide bows, leadpipes of every exotic material and dimension, harmonic "pillars", regular rotors, Hagmann, Thayer, Greenhoe, Olson etc, ----- it is nigh onto impossible for a player to experience them all, let alone have enough time to evaluate them to any degree of satisfaction. The law of "Combinations and Permutations" comes into play and shows us that we'd have to live several lifetimes to try every possible combination of the options available today. A subject of one of the Egyptian Pharaohs was granted a wish as thanks for a favor he had done for the Pharaoh. He requested a simple wish : A grain of wheat on the first square of a chessboard, two grains on the second, four on the third and so on, doubling on each square ----. His wish was granted, but upon closer scrutiny it was discovered that this "simple" wish amounted to the entire wheat production of Egypt for several decades ! Swap grains of wheat for trombone options and you can see the immensity of the problem with which we are dealing.

Perhaps the best strategy is for you it to find an instrument that produces the SOUND you have in your head as an ideal trombone sound [it never changes] and then follow Karl Rucht's advice ---- YOU must then do the changing ! Just sayin' ---------

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2019-04-24 4:42 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Wow[/quote]

This right here is why almost every professional player left TTF (Doug Yeo, Sam Burtis, Ralph Sauer, etc). The internet can give solid advice from Chris Stearn, one of the finest trombonists alive on the planet, and juxtapose it with some guy who calls a big Eb-alto trombone a bass, and make them both look equally credible.

OP should take a screenshot of what blast said below about practice and lessons and paste it inside his case. Be better off for it.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-04-24 5:19 p.m.

We have indeed lost some valuable contributors, but remaining on TromboneChat (and participating in this thread) are two very successful, knowledgeable, articulate professional trombonists - Chris Stern ("blast") and Bob Kraft ("2bobone"). As "brtnats" has noted, their advice is wise and valuable. Take heed!

blast · by **blast** » 2019-04-24 5:39 p.m.

[quote="brtnats"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="83318" time="1555871126" user_id="3642">Wow[/quote]

This right here is why almost every professional player left TTF (Doug Yeo, Sam Burtis, Ralph Sauer, etc). The internet can give solid advice from Chris Stearn, one of the finest trombonists alive on the planet, and juxtapose it with some guy who calls a big Eb-alto trombone a bass, and make them both look equally credible.

OP should take a screenshot of what blast said below about practice and lessons and paste it inside his case. Be better off for it.
</QUOTE>

You are FAR too kind. I am a regular pro, doing my best and paying the bills. A lot better players around than me.

The gentleman that disagreed with my view had a Shires at 15 and a custom trombone at 16, but this, as far as I know, did not lead him into a professional position, but expensive equipment never does lead to a career. Equipment is a means to an end, nothing more. That said, equipment IS important and I look at the equipment that my students use very carefully indeed, often finding them instruments and mouthpieces that really suit them. No blanket recommendations... everyone is unique. I have been doing this since 1991 so I suppose that I have a bit of experience in the area. It's funny, students here are not obsessed with equipment and do not generally look to that area to solve problems. Makes my teaching easier.

Chris

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-04-24 6:06 p.m.

[quote="brtnats"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="83318" time="1555871126" user_id="3642">Wow[/quote]

This right here is why almost every professional player left TTF (Doug Yeo, Sam Burtis, Ralph Sauer, etc). The internet can give solid advice from Chris Stearn, one of the finest trombonists alive on the planet, and juxtapose it with some guy who calls a big Eb-alto trombone a bass, and make them both look equally credible.

OP should take a screenshot of what blast said below about practice and lessons and paste it inside his case. Be better off for it.
</QUOTE>

Baritone trombone, and in Db.

If you feel the need to make light of me and least be accurate! :good:

Schlitz · 2019-04-24 8:22 p.m.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-04-25 9:14 p.m.

I admire Chris because he gave me a reason, a hope and a way to keep on playing the trombone! 12 years ago I sent a mp3 file to the old forum and two people answer; Chris and Sam Burtis. They both told the same thing; it was ok but the timing was a little rush, so I blame both of them for the other mp3 I made after. :weep:

Anyway, I read every word Chris write. He gives a "gem" in everything he write! And he dont sell anything. :good:

Leif

blast · by **blast** » 2019-04-27 7:51 a.m.

Schlitz and Savio, you are too kind.

A lot of the heat in this thread has come from the possibility of two approaches to the OP's question. The simple and probably more forum correct approach is to answer the question that the OP has set directly and without looking beyond it.

Less within the rules is to consider the OP's question and if you think that the OP is wrong in his/her question, point out why you think this, in a reasoned and reasonable way. This is what I and several others have done..... and it has upset some other members, both because they think we are wrong in thought and because they think we are wrong in process.

I feel, after so many years of teaching and performing, an obligation to at least flag up to young players, my concerns when they are looking at certain courses of action that I consider unwise or unproductive. I don't care if that upsets some. It is a duty.

It is honestly laughable to think that a young player, not yet at college, will be able to select the instrument that will be ideal for their future development and later sonic needs. The best they are likely to be able to do is select the maker and model who's hype they most buy into and the horn that looks prettiest to them.... and at that stage, such an instrument may be best for them...... might even work out later on. Feedback from more experienced professionals and experience in real life playing situations will (not might) lead to changes down the line, both in conceptual and equipment areas.

A tour listening to great orchestras and jazz combos... anything with trombones played at a high level.... that is an investment.... and that should be the main reason to go to ITF.

Chris

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-04-27 10:02 a.m.

[quote="blast"]

A lot of the heat in this thread has come from the possibility of two approaches to the OP's question. The simple and probably more forum correct approach is to answer the question that the OP has set directly and without looking beyond it.......

.....It is honestly laughable to think that a young player, not yet at college, will be able to select the instrument that will be ideal for their future development and later sonic needs.
[/quote]

See, theres a fundamental issue here, and it lies in devaluing the OP due to your own perception. In your opinion, experience rules, and because he is young he isnt capable of selecting a horn for himself. Via extension, you then feel the need to not answer his question, but instead tell him what he should be asking, and answer that instead. I'm sure someone will blow up on me for saying so, but why let your own ego of "knowing better" prevent you from just answering the guy?

Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.

I'm sure I'll get personally attacked now, but before anyone does, keep this in mind. This is supposed to be a place for players of all ages and levels to be able to converse as equals. Telling someone their question is wrong, ask this instead, and here's the answer, isnt a great way to encourage people to contribute.

Just sayin.

And now will come all the comments that will try to make light of me for inventing a horn, or whatever else they can come up with to discredit me because I see things differently. Sigh.

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2019-04-27 11:58 a.m.

The OP is asking for the "be all, end all" trombone.

The experienced players here know that there will be no "be all, end all" trombone, and answer the OP so.

I think this point is clear.

Also, the problem that OP now has, as far as I can see, is that *the slide is quite heavy*, which does not justify changing the horn, let alone changing to custom horn. Moreover, as many have stated, the taste and concept will change over time, and most likely the OP has to change the horn again.

Yes, it's his money, it's his horn. But they are essentially trying to help him save the money by advise him the true root cause. I think it is even better than just answering the question.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-04-27 12:12 p.m.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-04-27 12:38 p.m.

We frequently get questions from players either going from High School to College or early College who think it's time to "upgrade".

People like Chris (Blast) have seen an awful lot of these students and know what happens when they get a new trombone at this stage. In more cases than not the player's needs change as he (or she) develops. This even goes for prodigies and good players.

Most of us will find a "be all end all" horn that is a lot more pedestrian because the limit to our playing is us and not the horn. A good teacher can identify when it's time to change.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2019-04-27 1:03 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.[/quote]

Except you don't grant the possibility that the argument brought forth by all of us is valid no matter if he's an exceptional player or not.

As you aptly pointed out, being an exceptional player doesn't necessarily require experience - yet knowing yourself and knowing what fits your needs and knowing how your needs might evolved, that does require experience (and does not require being an exceptional player). A player can very well be both exceptional and clueless.

The first exceptional player I ever met is now one of the top freelancers back home and he regular subs and tours with a major symphony. I have no doubt he will win a major audition sooner or later. I met him my first week of college. He was playing a shiny new Shires for which he had carefully chosen the components to fit his needs. Fast forward 2 or 3 years and he was admitting that in hindsight he didn't have a clue what his needs were when he bought the horn, just what he thought they were, and that he couldn't possibly have predicted how his playing had since evolved and what he'd be needing just a few years later. He struggled to sell his horn and I think he had to settle for quite a bit less than it was worth. Has been playing on 42s for several years since.

It's a fairly common story.

I'm curious, how many exceptional players do you know who still play on the same horn as when they were 19?

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-04-27 1:14 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="83777" time="1556373747" user_id="4931">
Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.[/quote]

Except you don't grant the possibility that the argument brought forth by all of us is valid no matter if he's an exceptional player or not.

As you aptly pointed out, being an exceptional player doesn't necessarily require experience - yet knowing yourself and knowing what fits your needs and knowing how your needs might evolved, that does require experience (and does not require being an exceptional player). A player can very well be both exceptional and clueless.

The first exceptional player I ever met is now one of the top freelancers back home and he regular subs and tours with a major symphony. I have no doubt he will win a major audition sooner or later. I met him my first week of college. He was playing a shiny new Shires for which he had carefully chosen the components to fit his needs. Fast forward 2 or 3 years and he was admitting that in hindsight he didn't have a clue what his needs were when he bought the horn, just what he thought they were, and that he couldn't possibly have predicted how his playing had since evolved and what he'd be needing just a few years later. He struggled to sell his horn and I think he had to settle for quite a bit less than it was worth. Has been playing on 42s for several years since.

It's a fairly common story.

I'm curious, how many exceptional players do you know who still play on the same horn as when they were 19?
</QUOTE>

I am in no way saying tastes do not change, nor am i saying the OP necessarily knows exactly what he wants-most people in general do not. But thats why hes trying to get feedback on horns, more importantly everyone knows full well what he is asking. He wants a step up into a horn specialized for him, and wants to know whats out there. Maybe a better horn will make the difference he is looking for, maybe it wont. But it is what he wants to know about.

Best example i can give you is myself. In high school I played a custom holton 181 bell with dual bore shires slide, and a shires indy thayer, gold brass 9.5" bell, b2L leadpipe, and dual bore slide, both fantastic playing horns. I'd still be playing them today had i not needed the money for other things, only having sold them within the last year.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-04-27 1:37 p.m.

I think what we were saying was wrong was the concept of a "be all, end all" horn. Had I bought a nice horn when I was just going to college I'd probably be still playing it today, but I chose not to become a professional trombone player. Who knows? Maybe a large bore trombone in Db with a Gb attachment would be perfect for me ;).

Fact remains, there are too many stories about how needs change as you study trombone in college. I'd bet money that you are never the same player you were after your tenure in college as before, and your needs change as well.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2019-04-27 2:54 p.m.

But nobody said don't try horns or don't buy a better horn if you feel you need an upgrade.

What we all said is maybe the "be all, end all" ideal should be revised, and that it's probably a better idea at this point not to waste money on an expensive roadtrip which in the big picture will have served little purpose and had little impact, and not to waste money now on a new, fancy custom horn when he can find used horns that will also be an improvement at half the price or less and will be much easier to sell and recoup the investment when he truly knows what to look for.

For the record, my modern trombone is still the same horn I got when I was 15 and although I don't use it much anymore, if I was still playing modern trombone it's the one I'd use, so I know it's entirely possible to get a horn that you would play your whole life. But it's not because I'm an exceptional player (I'm really not) or because I knew what to look for (I really didn't and I was mostly wrong on about everything I thought I needed). I just got extremely lucky on a blind eBay buy and upgraded the horn itself when I needed rather upgrading to another horn.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2019-04-27 4:34 p.m.

I say: Buy a used pro horn. Then, when your needs/wants change, you won't take a beating when you sell it and buy something different (also used). Save the new horns for the days when someone is paying you to play!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-04-27 5:02 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]I say: Buy a used pro horn. Then, when your needs/wants change, you won't take a beating when you sell it and buy something different (also used). Save the new horns for the days when someone is paying you to play![/quote]

:good:

blast · by **blast** » 2019-04-27 6:46 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="83767" time="1556365919" user_id="52">

A lot of the heat in this thread has come from the possibility of two approaches to the OP's question. The simple and probably more forum correct approach is to answer the question that the OP has set directly and without looking beyond it.......

.....It is honestly laughable to think that a young player, not yet at college, will be able to select the instrument that will be ideal for their future development and later sonic needs.
[/quote]

See, theres a fundamental issue here, and it lies in devaluing the OP due to your own perception. In your opinion, experience rules, and because he is young he isnt capable of selecting a horn for himself. Via extension, you then feel the need to not answer his question, but instead tell him what he should be asking, and answer that instead. I'm sure someone will blow up on me for saying so, but why let your own ego of "knowing better" prevent you from just answering the guy?

Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.

I'm sure I'll get personally attacked now, but before anyone does, keep this in mind. This is supposed to be a place for players of all ages and levels to be able to converse as equals. Telling someone their question is wrong, ask this instead, and here's the answer, isnt a great way to encourage people to contribute.

Just sayin.
</QUOTE>

I find it regrettable that you comprehend so little of what I am saying. I have the highest regard for young people who wish to study music in general, and the trombone in particular. Far from wishing to devalue them, I wish to offer them advice that will allow best use of the time they devote to study, based on 28 years of college teaching. Ego.... really, that comment is not even worth a reply. I have offered advice that normally costs money for free as a contribution to this place and have done for many years here and elsewhere. I gained much from experienced players in my younger years and am happy to 'pay back' and pass on what was passed to me. It is the least the older generation can do. I post far less than I used to as I often now ask myself if it is worth the bother. A lot of the time, it's not.

Chris

<Edit: Fixed Quote - BGuttman>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-04-27 8:47 p.m.

I got to thinking about Ian Bousfield, who was an exceptional young player at one time. Conn 88H at the conservatory. I became aware of him when he showed up in town promoting the Yam 682B in his LSO day’s. Back to Conn with Vienna. Now Getzen. And I’m sure there have been several more.

If I had the end all-be all, I wonder: would it be the 42B I had in music school or the 88H I have now, or any of the other horns I’ve had in between: Yams, Minicks, Williams, Shires, Edwards? Even with the benefit of 40 years of hindsight I can’t answer that question. There were none I regret buying and a few that I regret selling.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-04-28 3:43 a.m.

I do a bit of work on trade stands sometimes... seems to me that the pros are mainly the ones who cant afford or perhaps choose not to buy bespoke horns. The weekend warriors (and students with parents money) with other jobs are the ones who keep the manufacturers in business!! I know thats a sweeping general statement and is not entirely true but as a general rule...

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2019-04-28 8:25 a.m.

[quote="blast"]

I find it regrettable that you comprehend so little of what I am saying. I have the highest regard for young people who wish to study music in general, and the trombone in particular. Far from wishing to devalue them, I wish to offer them advice that will allow best use of the time they devote to study, based on 28 years of college teaching. Ego.... really, that comment is not even worth a reply. I have offered advice that normally costs money for free as a contribution to this place and have done for many years here and elsewhere. I gained much from experienced players in my younger years and am happy to 'pay back' and pass on what was passed to me. It is the least the older generation can do. I post far less than I used to as I often now ask myself if it is worth the bother. A lot of the time, it's not.

Chris

<Edit: Fixed Quote - BGuttman>[/quote]

@Chris: I find it deeply regrettable that somebody so consumed with his ego and hubris has the audacity to turn that on you, a gentleman of the highest order. I’ve heard you play, I’ve watched his videos, when he was posting under his other name. The proof is in the playing, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest that perhaps one of you vastly improved since secondary school and one did not, despite his Shires.

@Doug:

I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately as I’m practicing my way through a problem I’m having in an ensemble. My immediate reaction was to make a quick mp change to crisp everything up. But, the group was meeting so often, and I was doing so much other playing, that changing a mouthpiece for one gig started to have an unwanted toll on the other. So I kept the equipment the same and I modified my practice and mental routine to compensate. A full time gigging musician doens’t often have the luxury of experimentation during a busy booking season. They find something that works, they play it, and they modify the soft machine to meet the goals. It seems reasonable that weekend warriors are the ones with the time to keep swapping parts and trying things out.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2019-04-28 11:57 a.m.

I'm sure I'll get personally attacked now, but before anyone does, keep this in mind. This is supposed to be a place for players of all ages and levels to be able to converse as equals. Telling someone their question is wrong, ask this instead, and here's the answer, isnt a great way to encourage people to contribute

But we are not all equals. I know Chris and have spent time with him... if he told me I had asked the wrong question I would ask him what was the question I should have asked! I'm as long in the tooth as Chris and have played as long as him but I readily see someone who knows more than me and I wouldnt hesitate to ask his advice and guidance. I'm not his equal when it comes to the trombone though I might be his friend.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2019-04-28 12:08 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I got to thinking about Ian Bousfield, who was an exceptional young player at one time. Conn 88H at the conservatory. I became aware of him when he showed up in town promoting the Yam 682B in his LSO day’s. Back to Conn with Vienna. Now Getzen. And I’m sure there have been several more.

If I had the end all-be all, I wonder: would it be the 42B I had in music school or the 88H I have now, or any of the other horns I’ve had in between: Yams, Minicks, Williams, Shires, Edwards? Even with the benefit of 40 years of hindsight I can’t answer that question. There were none I regret buying and a few that I regret selling.[/quote]

:good:

Personally, my concept of "the ideal horn", or that certain "custom horn" (as the OP put it) has evolved as I have evolved; both as a musician and as a trombone player. So, what I played several years ago and how I attempted to play it has given way to successive iterations and to what I currently have and how I am currently trying to play. Am I done evolving yet? Prob'ly not. Have I found the permanent "ideal horn" or one that I have been able to "customize" yet? Prob'ly not.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-04-28 6:36 p.m.

My observations over many decades of playing music and attending many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of live performances:

The working pros are not generally the ones who obsess about equipment and having the latest thing. They typically settle on something that works for them and play their gear for years – perhaps trying something new from time to time, or changing only as their needs vary. The experimentation of their youth has long died away. [All that is null and void for the very few famous players who get involved with a manufacturer that makes special equipment to their prescription. It’s to their mutual benefit to keep turning out product “innovations.”]

The trend-followers are more likely to be:

students who are still seeking and want to play what the big boys play [and who have budgets – perhaps funded by wealthy parents – to follow their dreams] in their quests for improvement and success, and

grown-ups like many <I>TromboneChat</I> members [many of us very active performers who sometimes get paid for playing] who have enough time and disposable income to experiment with different gear. [Seeking a Nirvana that they will of course never achieve!]

This kind of behavior is of course not limited to trombonists or to musicians in general – there are lots of products (e.g., basketball shoes) whose sales are driven by imitative or idol-following behaviors (be like Mike - or Steph!).

Eventually some (most?) of us grow up and work with what we have, and enjoy it.

I hope to get there myself some day! :idk:

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-04-28 7:00 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]My observations over many decades of playing music and attending many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of live performances:

The working pros are not generally the ones who obsess about equipment and having the latest thing. They typically settle on something that works for them and play their gear for years – perhaps trying something new from time to time, or changing only as their needs vary. The experimentation of their youth has long died away. [All that is null and void for the very few famous players who get involved with a manufacturer that makes special equipment to their prescription. It’s to their mutual benefit to keep turning out product “innovations.”]

The trend-followers are more likely to be:

students who are still seeking and want to play what the big boys play [and who have budgets – perhaps funded by wealthy parents – to follow their dreams] in their quests for improvement and success, and

grown-ups like many <I>TromboneChat</I> members [many of us very active performers who sometimes get paid for playing] who have enough time and disposable income to experiment with different gear. [Seeking a Nirvana that they will of course never achieve!]

This kind of behavior is of course not limited to trombonists or to musicians in general – there are lots of products (e.g., basketball shoes) whose sales are driven by imitative or idol-following behaviors (be like Mike - or Steph!).

Eventually some (most?) of us grow up and work with what we have, and enjoy it.

I hope to get there myself some day! :idk:[/quote]

Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-04-28 7:52 p.m.

Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.

[/quote]

This rather underscores the point: the young man in search of the ultimate horn is, I’d venture, no Ralph Sauer or Joe Alessi. Not yet, anyway.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-04-28 8:14 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.[/quote]

Of course many players switch when they encounter something clearly better than what they have used for "many years" (or even decades) - or (for some of these high-end performers) get support from a sponsoring manufacturer. But all of these cited spent a long time playing "what got them there" and didn't spend much of their energy (like so many of us Trombone Chatters) constantly searching for the holy grail. I've been guilty of this myself, and am trying to settle down and just play better on the (wonderful - and mostly old) equipment I already own.

Specialk3700 · by **Specialk3700** » 2019-04-28 8:15 p.m.

I would say the best thing for you to do is go try as many trombones as you can. It's a lot of fun and can be eye opening. Then I would buy a USED horn most similar to what you liked the best. Then as you go on you can try and trade different parts as you like.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-04-28 8:40 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="83922" time="1556492435" user_id="2978">
Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.[/quote]

Of course many players switch when they encounter something clearly better than what they have used for "many years" (or even decades) - or (for some of these high-end performers) get support from a sponsoring manufacturer. But all of these cited spent a long time playing "what got them there" and didn't spend much of their energy (like so many of us Trombone Chatters) constantly searching for the holy grail. I've been guilty of this myself, and am trying to settle down and just play better on the (wonderful - and mostly old) equipment I already own.
</QUOTE>

Unless I'm mistaken, those other options (Edwards & Shires) did not exist when the afore mentioned players started. Had they, perhaps different instrument choices would have been made.

I'm not stating that everyone should run out and purchase the latest model trombone, but it sounded to me like the OP is on a quest for a new horn. Perhaps a stock horn would do. But perhaps a modular horn, which could be changed as the OP's playing evolves, would be the more prudent choice.

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2019-04-29 3:32 a.m.

[quote="TheSheriff"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="83254" time="1555774718" user_id="2999">
Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.[/quote]
====

I had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. It is a great horn but the ergonomics killed me and I had to sell it. It's very front heavy, and if it were not for that, I'd still have it.

====
</QUOTE>

Hey Scott,

Thomas has made a new lighter model.

If I was still in the market and still had my full time theatre job I'd probably go back there as I loved my original Piccola like you. But had the same issues as you!

Here's the link if you've not seen it.............. https://www.inderbinen.com/en/piccola-nera-en

Best wishes,

Chris.

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-04-29 8:50 a.m.

[quote="Fidbone"]<QUOTE author="TheSheriff" post_id="83297" time="1555847085" user_id="3528">

====

I had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. It is a great horn but the ergonomics killed me and I had to sell it. It's very front heavy, and if it were not for that, I'd still have it.

====[/quote]

Hey Scott,

Thomas has made a new lighter model.

If I was still in the market and still had my full time theatre job I'd probably go back there as I loved my original Piccola like you. But had the same issues as you!

Here's the link if you've not seen it.............. https://www.inderbinen.com/en/piccola-nera-en

Best wishes,

Chris.
</QUOTE>
===

Hi Chris,

It's not gonna happen for me either, besides, I am extremely happy with my Lawler trombones. Do you know what the protruding thing-a-ma-jigs are on the Piccola's cross braces near the bell side?

----

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2019-04-29 10:19 a.m.

[quote="TheSheriff"]<QUOTE author="Fidbone" post_id="83954" time="1556523124" user_id="3132">

Hey Scott,

Thomas has made a new lighter model.

If I was still in the market and still had my full time theatre job I'd probably go back there as I loved my original Piccola like you. But had the same issues as you!

Here's the link if you've not seen it.............. https://www.inderbinen.com/en/piccola-nera-en

Best wishes,

Chris.[/quote]
===

Hi Chris,

It's not gonna happen for me either, besides, I am extremely happy with my Lawler trombones. Do you know what the protruding thing-a-ma-jigs are on the Piccola's cross braces near the bell side?

----
</QUOTE>

I think the bell is removable!

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-04-29 4:22 p.m.

[quote="Fidbone"]<QUOTE author="TheSheriff" post_id="83963" time="1556542254" user_id="3528">

===

Hi Chris,

It's not gonna happen for me either, besides, I am extremely happy with my Lawler trombones. Do you know what the protruding thing-a-ma-jigs are on the Piccola's cross braces near the bell side?

----[/quote]

I think the bell is removable!
</QUOTE>

-----

Makes sense. Thanks

====

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2019-04-29 5:02 p.m.

[quote="TheSheriff"]<QUOTE author="Fidbone" post_id="83964" time="1556547542" user_id="3132">

I think the bell is removable![/quote]

-----

Makes sense. Thanks

====
</QUOTE>

Yeah, removable bell on all models. I played the Inderbinen horns two weeks ago at his shop. The Nera felt way better balanced than the original and sounded better for the gigs I do (Original was great but leaned a little more “legit” sounding than the Nera). His carbon fiber slide prototype (everyone’s cashing in I guess) is better than even the Butler I own. Extremely high cost and wait time is prohibitive to me at this time.

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-04-29 5:13 p.m.

[quote="RJMason"]<QUOTE author="TheSheriff" post_id="84014" time="1556569358" user_id="3528">

-----

Makes sense. Thanks

====[/quote]

Yeah, removable bell on all models. I played the Inderbinen horns two weeks ago at his shop. The Nera felt way better balanced than the original and sounded better for the gigs I do (Original was great but leaned a little more “legit” sounding than the Nera). His carbon fiber slide prototype (everyone’s cashing in I guess) is better than even the Butler I own. Extremely high cost and wait time is prohibitive to me at this time.
</QUOTE>
----

Thanks for the info.

===

Quick Links

Instruments

Marketplace

Finding the custom horn for me