Very rough ballpark estimates on converting bass bones to new valve setups?
- gdoug
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Apr 22, 2019
Hey all, I am considering looking for an older bass and doing a valve conversion vs finding a used bass with valves I like. I am particularly fond of Hagmann's but am open to other options. Would prefer inline/independent. Not looking for exact costs, but I am interested to know what some past projects have roughly set others back, and any advice?
- pompatus
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I recently had an older Bach 50B2 converted to axial valves, using the Instrument Innovations axials. Altogether, it cost me around $1700.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
Over 2k. Parts alone are over $1000 depending on valves. Hagmanns will bring that higher
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
The cost of the parts is a small part of the equation. Labor, and the knowledge and ability to put those parts together in such a way as to give the best result is worth considerably more.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Depending on how friendly you are with your tech and who you talk to the price will fluctuate.
For example... Olsen rotors are $200 a pop while Rotax valves are $500+ a pop. So depends on parts too.
Expect to pay north of $1000 for parts and labor.
For example... Olsen rotors are $200 a pop while Rotax valves are $500+ a pop. So depends on parts too.
Expect to pay north of $1000 for parts and labor.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]The cost of the parts is a small part of the equation. Labor, and the knowledge and ability to put those parts together in such a way as to give the best result is worth considerably more.[/quote]
I guess it depends how much you're replacing. If it were me I'd do all new wraps, valves, linkage, and bracing. Now if the customer asks for all my custom machined stuff, it becomes a very different story, as the time into all that can be longer than building the horn. I do, however, 100% agree that you are paying for the knowledge and skillset of the craftsman, its not simply solder here and there.
This, is the exact reason I don't go crazy on markup when I purchase parts, I'd rather present a more suitable rate for my own time, and even though by bill is probably similar to anyone else who is on their game, I feel that it's important to spell it out this way.
The saying cheap ain't good, and good ain't cheap, definitely applies here.
I guess it depends how much you're replacing. If it were me I'd do all new wraps, valves, linkage, and bracing. Now if the customer asks for all my custom machined stuff, it becomes a very different story, as the time into all that can be longer than building the horn. I do, however, 100% agree that you are paying for the knowledge and skillset of the craftsman, its not simply solder here and there.
This, is the exact reason I don't go crazy on markup when I purchase parts, I'd rather present a more suitable rate for my own time, and even though by bill is probably similar to anyone else who is on their game, I feel that it's important to spell it out this way.
The saying cheap ain't good, and good ain't cheap, definitely applies here.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="gdoug"]Hey all, I am considering looking for an older bass and doing a valve conversion vs finding a used bass with valves I like. I am particularly fond of Hagmann's but am open to other options. Would prefer inline/independent. Not looking for exact costs, but I am interested to know what some past projects have roughly set others back, and any advice?[/quote]
Not sure that approach will save you any money. And you will not know if you will like the horn you are building. I think you'd be better off with buying used and resell if you don't like.
Not sure that approach will save you any money. And you will not know if you will like the horn you are building. I think you'd be better off with buying used and resell if you don't like.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I agree that you'd probably be better with buying a complete horn. I pieced together a bass from used components for about $1400, including horn, parts and labor, but I was using older, less expensive stuff (40 year old dependent rotors from a King 6b, and an Olds S-20 single valve starting point). First you really have to figure out what valves you want, and to do that you've got to go to a place with a lot of horns. A big city music store or a music convention. The best bet is to find a used horn, because you can resell it without losing a lot of money if you don't like it.
Custom work is always a gamble because you're paying for it whether you like the result or not, and you can never get your money back out of it by selling it. If you get a pre-built indy set of Hagmanns from Rath, it's $3360 (just the modular valve set) <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dillonmusic.com/rath-rath-b ... quantity=1">https://www.dillonmusic.com/rath-rath-bass-trombone-valve-sections.html?id=19397159&quantity=1</LINK_TEXT>
A horn worth putting those on will be at least another $2000. A brand new Bach 50a3 (with a warranty) is just under $6k. There's one on ebay right now for $5500. You might wait to find a used one, but they seem rare.
If you're just into the big valve thing, used axials is probably the cheapest option. They've been around the longest, so you'll find them more plentiful and cheap. Personally, I'd consider everything, including normal rotors. There's no glory in a big valve. In the end, it's about sound and playability. Shires trubores are an option, even standard Yamaha valves, I don't think there are any honestly bad valves in the pro horn offerings. That Kanstul 1670 that someone is selling cheap has oversize CR valves (dependent, one standard, one plug-in).
The Brass Exchange has some nice used options starting around $2000. The valve is mostly about how much resistance you like. Some people play better with more resistance, some don't. Go play a bunch of horns, it's the only way to have a good idea of what you want.
Custom work is always a gamble because you're paying for it whether you like the result or not, and you can never get your money back out of it by selling it. If you get a pre-built indy set of Hagmanns from Rath, it's $3360 (just the modular valve set) <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dillonmusic.com/rath-rath-b ... quantity=1">https://www.dillonmusic.com/rath-rath-bass-trombone-valve-sections.html?id=19397159&quantity=1</LINK_TEXT>
A horn worth putting those on will be at least another $2000. A brand new Bach 50a3 (with a warranty) is just under $6k. There's one on ebay right now for $5500. You might wait to find a used one, but they seem rare.
If you're just into the big valve thing, used axials is probably the cheapest option. They've been around the longest, so you'll find them more plentiful and cheap. Personally, I'd consider everything, including normal rotors. There's no glory in a big valve. In the end, it's about sound and playability. Shires trubores are an option, even standard Yamaha valves, I don't think there are any honestly bad valves in the pro horn offerings. That Kanstul 1670 that someone is selling cheap has oversize CR valves (dependent, one standard, one plug-in).
The Brass Exchange has some nice used options starting around $2000. The valve is mostly about how much resistance you like. Some people play better with more resistance, some don't. Go play a bunch of horns, it's the only way to have a good idea of what you want.
- gdoug
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Apr 22, 2019
This is pretty much the conclusion I had already arrived at, but I didn't have the facts to back it up. Thank you, everyone!
- bryceminnell
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sep 28, 2020
[quote="gdoug"]Hey all, I am considering looking for an older bass and doing a valve conversion vs finding a used bass with valves I like. I am particularly fond of Hagmann's but am open to other options. Would prefer inline/independent. Not looking for exact costs, but I am interested to know what some past projects have roughly set others back, and any advice?[/quote]
How did you get on? I'm looking at options for my Bach Corporation 50B2
How did you get on? I'm looking at options for my Bach Corporation 50B2
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
My shop charges $20 a solder joint, which is pretty normal i think. So count however many joints, and then add the parts cost.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Elow"]My shop charges $20 a solder joint, which is pretty normal i think. So count however many joints, and then add the parts cost.[/quote]
That is no way to come up with an estimate.
That is no way to come up with an estimate.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="126711" time="1601400789" user_id="8680">
My shop charges $20 a solder joint, which is pretty normal i think. So count however many joints, and then add the parts cost.[/quote]
That is no way to come up with an estimate.
</QUOTE>
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
My shop charges $20 a solder joint, which is pretty normal i think. So count however many joints, and then add the parts cost.[/quote]
That is no way to come up with an estimate.
</QUOTE>
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
Putting new valves on a trombone is a voyage more than a job...done it quite a few times now. There's a lot of thinking and quite a few tryout's ...especially the brace layout.... it can be done on the cheap but that is a huge mistake....get the best tech you can...the difference is everything. There are people here who are master craftsmen...you are not buying torch time, you are buying skill and knowledge.
Chris
Chris
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="126720" time="1601412545" user_id="7573">
That is no way to come up with an estimate.[/quote]
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
</QUOTE>
What about devising the wrap, the valve angles, and the bracing system? What about ensuring it is put together without stress?
$20 per soldered joint plus "parts" sounds like there would be a lot of tubes forced together and held at the soldered points under stress to me.
Look at what the Brass Lab used to do, and assume that that is what people deserve, every time.
That is no way to come up with an estimate.[/quote]
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
</QUOTE>
What about devising the wrap, the valve angles, and the bracing system? What about ensuring it is put together without stress?
$20 per soldered joint plus "parts" sounds like there would be a lot of tubes forced together and held at the soldered points under stress to me.
Look at what the Brass Lab used to do, and assume that that is what people deserve, every time.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Even if it's a kit, there's going to be some thought and expertise in assembling it (and I can't think of many kits out there now, since OE Thayer is gone). Just look at sections from established companies! Even with a jig and an experienced assembler, plenty of valve sections with stress, problems, bad solder, you name it.
Lots of the price goes into the expertise of your tech.
Lots of the price goes into the expertise of your tech.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="126720" time="1601412545" user_id="7573">
That is no way to come up with an estimate.[/quote]
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
</QUOTE>
A shop might do it that way but most techs charge per job. Depending on the tech sometimes they'll vaguely charge by the hour plus parts. Custom work is a whole other ballpark vs small repairs. No book!
Heck most work I've had done with techs have been a verbal agreement as to pricing for the job. There's definitely a ball park estimate/industry standard to be had in regards to pricing but no tech worth their salt would give you a quote or prepay the repair. That's just asking for trouble.
That is no way to come up with an estimate.[/quote]
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
</QUOTE>
A shop might do it that way but most techs charge per job. Depending on the tech sometimes they'll vaguely charge by the hour plus parts. Custom work is a whole other ballpark vs small repairs. No book!
Heck most work I've had done with techs have been a verbal agreement as to pricing for the job. There's definitely a ball park estimate/industry standard to be had in regards to pricing but no tech worth their salt would give you a quote or prepay the repair. That's just asking for trouble.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
I built myself a wrap and it plays great. It wasn’t too difficult. It took about 30 minutes messing with parts to find what i wanted, measured the parts to where i need to cut them and soldered it all up. I didn’t have any issues with tension, it all just fit the way it was supposed to. Once i got the wrap back on the horn i messed around with bracing and found what i liked and soldered that on. I liked how it turned out. As long as your tech is competent, there shouldn’t be any problems.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="126711" time="1601400789" user_id="8680">
My shop charges $20 a solder joint, which is pretty normal i think. So count however many joints, and then add the parts cost.[/quote]
That is no way to come up with an estimate.
</QUOTE>
If we were talking about a sax overhaul or any woodwind over haul you can point at a price list and say "it'll cost x amount to do".
As others have stated, you have your base cost for parts and the rest is labor. John Sandhagen had to lay everything out a couple times before pulling out a torch. It takes time to make sure it's done right the first time. And he did a FANTASTIC job!
To the OP, if you're in a budget, you can't go wrong with the instrument innovations valves. I wanted to put schmidt valves on my 72H but didn't have $500 to spend on each valve. However, if you got disposable moneies then shoot for what you want.
My shop charges $20 a solder joint, which is pretty normal i think. So count however many joints, and then add the parts cost.[/quote]
That is no way to come up with an estimate.
</QUOTE>
If we were talking about a sax overhaul or any woodwind over haul you can point at a price list and say "it'll cost x amount to do".
As others have stated, you have your base cost for parts and the rest is labor. John Sandhagen had to lay everything out a couple times before pulling out a torch. It takes time to make sure it's done right the first time. And he did a FANTASTIC job!
To the OP, if you're in a budget, you can't go wrong with the instrument innovations valves. I wanted to put schmidt valves on my 72H but didn't have $500 to spend on each valve. However, if you got disposable moneies then shoot for what you want.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="126720" time="1601412545" user_id="7573">
That is no way to come up with an estimate.[/quote]
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
</QUOTE>
Your way might work if someone comes in with a poor connection that needs to be fixed. But what the OP is talking about is something WAY over the scope of $20 per joint.
That is no way to come up with an estimate.[/quote]
That’s how we give our customers rough estimates on repairs. Look it up in the book, and tell them. How would you do it
</QUOTE>
Your way might work if someone comes in with a poor connection that needs to be fixed. But what the OP is talking about is something WAY over the scope of $20 per joint.
- gdoug
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Apr 22, 2019
[quote="bryceminnell"]<QUOTE author="gdoug" post_id="83392" time="1555960013" user_id="6061">
Hey all, I am considering looking for an older bass and doing a valve conversion vs finding a used bass with valves I like. I am particularly fond of Hagmann's but am open to other options. Would prefer inline/independent. Not looking for exact costs, but I am interested to know what some past projects have roughly set others back, and any advice?[/quote]
How did you get on? I'm looking at options for my Bach Corporation 50B2
</QUOTE>
I didn't. I bought a shires in July. :idk: One day I'll do a fun build, but for now i just want to play! :D
Hey all, I am considering looking for an older bass and doing a valve conversion vs finding a used bass with valves I like. I am particularly fond of Hagmann's but am open to other options. Would prefer inline/independent. Not looking for exact costs, but I am interested to know what some past projects have roughly set others back, and any advice?[/quote]
How did you get on? I'm looking at options for my Bach Corporation 50B2
</QUOTE>
I didn't. I bought a shires in July. :idk: One day I'll do a fun build, but for now i just want to play! :D