Custom CNC Mouthpiece Makers?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Hi everyone!
I am still waiting on a response to an inquiry to Griego Mouthpieces (only just asked today), but I figured I'd ask here as well:
Are there CNC shops around that do one off mouthpieces? Say you had a blank and cup/backbore profile that you really liked, but wanted a specific rim contour -- are there shops that would do the CAD work?
Or, say you created a CAD profile -- are there CNC shops that you could send your file to and have them make it for you?
FWIW, I asked Griego Mouthpieces if they would edit the CAD file for one specific mouthpiece, but use the rim contour of another one that is the same diameter.
I am still waiting on a response to an inquiry to Griego Mouthpieces (only just asked today), but I figured I'd ask here as well:
Are there CNC shops around that do one off mouthpieces? Say you had a blank and cup/backbore profile that you really liked, but wanted a specific rim contour -- are there shops that would do the CAD work?
Or, say you created a CAD profile -- are there CNC shops that you could send your file to and have them make it for you?
FWIW, I asked Griego Mouthpieces if they would edit the CAD file for one specific mouthpiece, but use the rim contour of another one that is the same diameter.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I do modifications like that to my own mouthpiece designs all the time, but not copies of others.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I'm curious, for a one-off mouthpiece, wouldn't be easier and cheaper to just bring the mouthpiece you want altered to a good craftsman that can do the job for you on a regular lathe? Is there a particular reason you want the design to be computer encoded?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]I'm curious, for a one-off mouthpiece, wouldn't be easier and cheaper to just bring the mouthpiece you want altered to a good craftsman that can do the job for you on a regular lathe? Is there a particular reason you want the design to be computer encoded?[/quote]
In this case, it wouldn't be a subtractive process. The Alessi rim is wider than the thin Bousfield rim. Griego already has both CAD files.
Also, no one has these unique blanks to just throw on a lathe
In this case, it wouldn't be a subtractive process. The Alessi rim is wider than the thin Bousfield rim. Griego already has both CAD files.
Also, no one has these unique blanks to just throw on a lathe
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]In this case, it wouldn't be a subtractive process. The Alessi rim is wider than the thin Bousfield rim.[/quote]
Ah yes I see!
Ah yes I see!
- sungfw
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Jul 17, 2018
Know any university students or staff? Many, if not most, universities—particularly schools with engineering, hard science, and/or medical programs—have "hothouse" labs that provide students and staff access to all kinds of high end equipment, from laser scanners to 3d metal printers to CNC mills to industrial laser cutters. Depending on the school, the labs may be restricted to students/staff of a particular department or open to all.
Alternatively, if you have both mouthpieces, any decent CNC milling company should be able to scan the mouthpieces and merge the rim of one with the cup of the other. (If I'm remembering correctly, you're with a military (Army?) band. Assuming that's the case, ask around: you might find a military machinist who'd be willing to make one for you.)
Alternatively, if you have both mouthpieces, any decent CNC milling company should be able to scan the mouthpieces and merge the rim of one with the cup of the other. (If I'm remembering correctly, you're with a military (Army?) band. Assuming that's the case, ask around: you might find a military machinist who'd be willing to make one for you.)
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Another option would be to have Doug or Bob Reeves lop off the original Griego rim and replace it with a custom spec rim of their making.
Might be the best way to do it if Griego won't make you a custom piece.
Might be the best way to do it if Griego won't make you a custom piece.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]I'm curious, for a one-off mouthpiece, wouldn't be easier and cheaper to just bring the mouthpiece you want altered to a good craftsman that can do the job for you on a regular lathe? Is there a particular reason you want the design to be computer encoded?[/quote]
Just in case it ends up being totally awesome and your friends want one just like it.
I had scans made of an original Olds G (George Roberts ) and an original Olds F alto with the intent that others could get copies made if they wanted them (the F alto is one of the few mouthpieces that actually works on an Olds alto). Unfortunately, those scans are apparently lost forever (collateral damage in the Kansul situation).
Just in case it ends up being totally awesome and your friends want one just like it.
I had scans made of an original Olds G (George Roberts ) and an original Olds F alto with the intent that others could get copies made if they wanted them (the F alto is one of the few mouthpieces that actually works on an Olds alto). Unfortunately, those scans are apparently lost forever (collateral damage in the Kansul situation).
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
You could try Peter Pickett.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Thanks for the responses so far guys!
I do vaguely remember Kanstul doing custom mouthpieces, but that feature vanished from their website years ago, before the current troubles.
I do vaguely remember Kanstul doing custom mouthpieces, but that feature vanished from their website years ago, before the current troubles.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
You could also try Antonio Rappacciuolo at AR Resonance in Italy.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Is there a way to cast a mouthpiece without damaging it so you could graph a cross section?
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
How much are you looking to spend to get a cross section?
You could potentially CT scan it and then clean it up in CAD, then CNC that.
Downside....hellishly expensive. We do that at work for industry clients and it's on the order of multiple thousands of dollars given just how much post processing labor is involved.
You could also bandsaw both mouthpieces of interest in half to trace the axially-symmetric profile, then trace that onto paper (or, xerox it), scan that, then manipulate and merge the scans with photoshop, then CAD up a model, then CNC.
That's a ton of work IMO and won't be cheap at all.
You could potentially CT scan it and then clean it up in CAD, then CNC that.
Downside....hellishly expensive. We do that at work for industry clients and it's on the order of multiple thousands of dollars given just how much post processing labor is involved.
You could also bandsaw both mouthpieces of interest in half to trace the axially-symmetric profile, then trace that onto paper (or, xerox it), scan that, then manipulate and merge the scans with photoshop, then CAD up a model, then CNC.
That's a ton of work IMO and won't be cheap at all.
- peteedwards
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
A machine shop with a CMM could scan it for a reasonable fee.
They could also use a manual lathe & dial indicator, but its a bit more laborious.
You could also use a graduated series of steel balls & measure the depth of each.
They could also use a manual lathe & dial indicator, but its a bit more laborious.
You could also use a graduated series of steel balls & measure the depth of each.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="cozzagiorgi"]You could also try Antonio Rappacciuolo at AR Resonance in Italy.[/quote]
He will do it
He will do it
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Is there a way to cast a mouthpiece without damaging it so you could graph a cross section?[/quote]
Personally I would scan it.
But rifle competitors use something called Cerrosafe to cast in chambers to get accurate dimensions.
Personally I would scan it.
But rifle competitors use something called Cerrosafe to cast in chambers to get accurate dimensions.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I think the start of the art for digitizing mouthpieces is still a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinate-measuring_machine] coordinate-measuring machine. Not sure if optical scanning technology is quite "there" yet; if not, it probably will be soon.
CMM's have their limitations - mostly having to do with the size of the probe, but getting into tight spaces (backbores, for example) is also problematic. If laser scanning can eliminate those issues...
CMM's have their limitations - mostly having to do with the size of the probe, but getting into tight spaces (backbores, for example) is also problematic. If laser scanning can eliminate those issues...
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Is there a way to cast a mouthpiece without damaging it so you could graph a cross section?[/quote]
Silicone compounds used by dentists to make negative imprints of patients' teeth (and then used to cast a plaster positive copy) are also commonly used by makers of reproductions of historical instruments. Making an imprint of the cup and rim would be fairly easy with that, and it most certainly won't do any damage to the mouthpiece. A separate imprint of the outer shape would be also easy to get. Gets a little bit more complicated for the backbore.
Not as precise as scanning of course.
Silicone compounds used by dentists to make negative imprints of patients' teeth (and then used to cast a plaster positive copy) are also commonly used by makers of reproductions of historical instruments. Making an imprint of the cup and rim would be fairly easy with that, and it most certainly won't do any damage to the mouthpiece. A separate imprint of the outer shape would be also easy to get. Gets a little bit more complicated for the backbore.
Not as precise as scanning of course.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
Christan made a couple of mouthpieces for me that combined a larger rim on a smaller cup. He did a great job, but it did take a while for him to get to it with other projects on the go. He was really honest about that up front, so that's not a criticism at all - just an observation.
If you like the Bousfield cup, and not the rim, I would just get someone to make a copy of the rim you do like, and cut the Bousfield into a screw-rim cup. Cheaper and faster, and will let you know if that combination works well together. John Stork did something like that for me many years ago, and did a really good job of copying the rim in question. The fit of the new rim to the cups that had sacrificed their rims to become underparts was great, and the price and turnaround time was very reasonable.
Jim Scott
If you like the Bousfield cup, and not the rim, I would just get someone to make a copy of the rim you do like, and cut the Bousfield into a screw-rim cup. Cheaper and faster, and will let you know if that combination works well together. John Stork did something like that for me many years ago, and did a really good job of copying the rim in question. The fit of the new rim to the cups that had sacrificed their rims to become underparts was great, and the price and turnaround time was very reasonable.
Jim Scott
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]Christan made a couple of mouthpieces for me that combined a larger rim on a smaller cup. He did a great job, but it did take a while for him to get to it with other projects on the go. He was really honest about that up front, so that's not a criticism at all - just an observation.
If you like the Bousfield cup, and not the rim, I would just get someone to make a copy of the rim you do like, and cut the Bousfield into a screw-rim cup. Cheaper and faster, and will let you know if that combination works well together. John Stork did something like that for me many years ago, and did a really good job of copying the rim in question. The fit of the new rim to the cups that had sacrificed their rims to become underparts was great, and the price and turnaround time was very reasonable.
Jim Scott[/quote]
Yeah, he (Christan) seems like a really busy guy. What was the upcharge, if you don't mind?
I think I'll call him up rather than email again.
If you like the Bousfield cup, and not the rim, I would just get someone to make a copy of the rim you do like, and cut the Bousfield into a screw-rim cup. Cheaper and faster, and will let you know if that combination works well together. John Stork did something like that for me many years ago, and did a really good job of copying the rim in question. The fit of the new rim to the cups that had sacrificed their rims to become underparts was great, and the price and turnaround time was very reasonable.
Jim Scott[/quote]
Yeah, he (Christan) seems like a really busy guy. What was the upcharge, if you don't mind?
I think I'll call him up rather than email again.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
PM sent.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott