What trombone for bass trombone part on Beethoven 9th
- ddsbstrb
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Apr 29, 2019
I have played this several times in the past; however, I watched and listened to the Chicago Symphony's version on a You Tube. Charlie was not playing his regular 50b3; as, far as I could see on the video. There were not any close-up's of the trombone section. It looked like he might have been using a 50B or a 42B?
I am playing it next week. I have these choices:
1. Greenhoe-Bach 50b3 Yellow Brass Bell
2. Conn Elkhart 62H
3. Bach 42B-YB Bell
4. Bach 50B YB Bell
5 Conn 88HTO-Gen II-Elkhart
The 2nd & 4th movements are not low. The note range in the movements in first line bass clef "G" to high "F", three spaces above the bass staff. Most commonly, the notes fall on the bass staff and slightly above. For those who have not played this work, the trombones frequently double the voices, with the bass (3) doubling the bass voices in that famous 4th movement.
What say you? :idk:
I am playing it next week. I have these choices:
1. Greenhoe-Bach 50b3 Yellow Brass Bell
2. Conn Elkhart 62H
3. Bach 42B-YB Bell
4. Bach 50B YB Bell
5 Conn 88HTO-Gen II-Elkhart
The 2nd & 4th movements are not low. The note range in the movements in first line bass clef "G" to high "F", three spaces above the bass staff. Most commonly, the notes fall on the bass staff and slightly above. For those who have not played this work, the trombones frequently double the voices, with the bass (3) doubling the bass voices in that famous 4th movement.
What say you? :idk:
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
My advice is to use the trombone you are familier with.
Leif
Leif
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
If the rest of the section is scaling down then it would sound good for you to scale down also. But if the 2nd player is using a .547 bore instrument then the effect of you scaling down will be lost, so I wouldn't bother.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I would avoid taking a big honking double valve. You won't use any valves at all. To some extent it depends on what the first player uses. Of the choices you present, I'd probably pick the 42b. 50b would be second choice. Beethoven never saw a trombone as big (bore and bell) as a 42b.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
When we did it I used my King 7B. The rest of the orchestra did not scale down, so I just played what I was most comfortable with.
Enjoy your 3 solo D's in the 2nd movement.
Enjoy your 3 solo D's in the 2nd movement.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Hi Denny, long time!
I own a 70H, which is my preference for choral works like this; my ideal choice from your stable would likely be the 62H. But I find that my 70H doesn't always work so well in a section with big wide-slide tenors (depends on the players of course), so I would choose based on who the other trombone players are and what instruments they will be playing.
I own a 70H, which is my preference for choral works like this; my ideal choice from your stable would likely be the 62H. But I find that my 70H doesn't always work so well in a section with big wide-slide tenors (depends on the players of course), so I would choose based on who the other trombone players are and what instruments they will be playing.
- BassBoneFL
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Aug 14, 2018
#4
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I would use my 50B. I don't need a Conn 62H (two valves) for that. The Conn 88 and Bach 42 are good horns but I would prefer a bass trombone if the others use large bore horns.
/Tom
/Tom
- MahlerMusic
- Posts: 158
- Joined: May 07, 2019
If it was me I would pick the Conn Elkhart 62H but really just use the bone that you play the most.
When we play Beethoven the first is on Alto so we scale down so the bass will be on a Conn 88H. But Ideally for the 9th it would be nice for the Alto part to be played on a more modern larger bore Alto so a Conn 62H can be used on the Bass part.
What trombones are the others using?
When we play Beethoven the first is on Alto so we scale down so the bass will be on a Conn 88H. But Ideally for the 9th it would be nice for the Alto part to be played on a more modern larger bore Alto so a Conn 62H can be used on the Bass part.
What trombones are the others using?
- ddsbstrb
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Apr 29, 2019
I will put out an email to the other section members to see what instrument they will use. I have my Bach 36 loaned out to our 2nd trombone, currently. He would have the option of using that or his Shires .547. I should know what our principal will be playing on, shortly.
Thanks for all of your great suggestions. I have been playing on my Conn 62H for the past couple of weeks,
I would possibly use the single valve Bach 50B; however, it is such a different "blow", when compared to my Greenhoe-Bach, it probably wouldn't be a very good idea.
Thanks for all of your great suggestions. I have been playing on my Conn 62H for the past couple of weeks,
I would possibly use the single valve Bach 50B; however, it is such a different "blow", when compared to my Greenhoe-Bach, it probably wouldn't be a very good idea.
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
Ahah, there I found the link to Chicago Symphony with Muti conducting:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOjHhS5MtvA
I only played it once and I did listen a lot to the link above. I believe there is alto, tenor and bass. Use the one that you feel is best for you. Forget all the rules that say you have to use this and that.
What surprised me in that symphony is there is a lot of trombone in it, but the horn players didn't even have any rest I think!
Beethoven made the trombone standard in the symphony with his 5th, I wonder if he wrote the "three equali" for his own funeral? He must have had some good trombone players in his orchestra?
Leif
I only played it once and I did listen a lot to the link above. I believe there is alto, tenor and bass. Use the one that you feel is best for you. Forget all the rules that say you have to use this and that.
What surprised me in that symphony is there is a lot of trombone in it, but the horn players didn't even have any rest I think!
Beethoven made the trombone standard in the symphony with his 5th, I wonder if he wrote the "three equali" for his own funeral? He must have had some good trombone players in his orchestra?
Leif
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Rests on the power of the orchestra and chorus.... and of the alto player. I remember many years ago playing it with the Royal Philharmonic and the great Derek James playing a Latzch alto... massive sound... you would never scale down in that situation. Unless it was a period orchestra I would not scale down... so the 62H is ideal Denny.... but deep down you know that...by the way, the Latzch model Khune alto is the best orchestra alto ever made....
Chris
Chris
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
[quote="blast"]Rests on the power of the orchestra and chorus.... and of the alto player. I remember many years ago playing it with the Royal Philharmonic and the great Derek James playing a Latzch alto... massive sound... you would never scale down in that situation. Unless it was a period orchestra I would not scale down... so the 62H is ideal Denny.... but deep down you know that...by the way, the Latzch model Khune alto is the best orchestra alto ever made....
Chris[/quote]
I've got a similar Latszch alto. One of the few cases where the horn has a lot to do with the sound (as opposed to the player), and in a VERY good way. It can easily punch through an 800-person choir.
Chris[/quote]
I've got a similar Latszch alto. One of the few cases where the horn has a lot to do with the sound (as opposed to the player), and in a VERY good way. It can easily punch through an 800-person choir.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
[quote="ddsbstrb"]I have played this several times in the past; however, I watched and listened to the Chicago Symphony's version on a You Tube. Charlie was not playing his regular 50b3; as, far as I could see on the video. There were not any close-up's of the trombone section. It looked like he might have been using a 50B or a 42B?
I am playing it next week. I have these choices:
1. Greenhoe-Bach 50b3 Yellow Brass Bell
2. Conn Elkhart 62H
3. Bach 42B-YB Bell
4. Bach 50B YB Bell
5 Conn 88HTO-Gen II-Elkhart
The 2nd & 4th movements are not low. The note range in the movements in first line bass clef "G" to high "F", three spaces above the bass staff. Most commonly, the notes fall on the bass staff and slightly above. For those who have not played this work, the trombones frequently double the voices, with the bass (3) doubling the bass voices in that famous 4th movement.
What say you? :idk:[/quote]
I wonder, is this a serious post? Joke? A test? Not knowing about the consert hall, the orchestra and of course the 1st and 2nd trombonists horn, how could anybody ansver that question? I think the OP is pulling our legs. :lol:
I am playing it next week. I have these choices:
1. Greenhoe-Bach 50b3 Yellow Brass Bell
2. Conn Elkhart 62H
3. Bach 42B-YB Bell
4. Bach 50B YB Bell
5 Conn 88HTO-Gen II-Elkhart
The 2nd & 4th movements are not low. The note range in the movements in first line bass clef "G" to high "F", three spaces above the bass staff. Most commonly, the notes fall on the bass staff and slightly above. For those who have not played this work, the trombones frequently double the voices, with the bass (3) doubling the bass voices in that famous 4th movement.
What say you? :idk:[/quote]
I wonder, is this a serious post? Joke? A test? Not knowing about the consert hall, the orchestra and of course the 1st and 2nd trombonists horn, how could anybody ansver that question? I think the OP is pulling our legs. :lol:
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Basbasun"]<QUOTE author="ddsbstrb" post_id="84782" time="1557448733" user_id="6185">
I have played this several times in the past; however, I watched and listened to the Chicago Symphony's version on a You Tube. Charlie was not playing his regular 50b3; as, far as I could see on the video. There were not any close-up's of the trombone section. It looked like he might have been using a 50B or a 42B?
I am playing it next week. I have these choices:
1. Greenhoe-Bach 50b3 Yellow Brass Bell
2. Conn Elkhart 62H
3. Bach 42B-YB Bell
4. Bach 50B YB Bell
5 Conn 88HTO-Gen II-Elkhart
The 2nd & 4th movements are not low. The note range in the movements in first line bass clef "G" to high "F", three spaces above the bass staff. Most commonly, the notes fall on the bass staff and slightly above. For those who have not played this work, the trombones frequently double the voices, with the bass (3) doubling the bass voices in that famous 4th movement.
What say you? :idk:[/quote]
I wonder, is this a serious post? Joke? A test? Not knowing about the consert hall, the orchestra and of course the 1st and 2nd trombonists horn, how could anybody ansver that question? I think the OP is pulling our legs. :lol:
</QUOTE>
You are right. Without knowing this you can not adopt to the context which it is all about. I answered as if everything was unknown and my expectation of what would be the probable choice of instruments by the other trombone players. I guess they are limited to one instrument as most non professional players are, and that their instruments are .547 (or possibly .525 horns). Not likely .500 since most classical amateur players I meet use a trombone with a valve. The Bach 50B is not a bad choice in any of those conditions. I also assumed it is not a professional orchestra but a community orchestra hiring a third player (with experience) to fill that chair. I answered on those premises what would then have been my choice as it is a situation known also to me. If it was a professional orchestra you would probably know more about the context and you would probably ask the other tromboneplayers what they will use. It would then not be a question for this forum to guess. Im sure we would never be involved. Any of those trombones is the right choice In the right context. The balance of the section would be my primary goal. To use the instrument closest to what Beethoven would have had access to is in the context of a community orchestra secondary.
/Tom
I have played this several times in the past; however, I watched and listened to the Chicago Symphony's version on a You Tube. Charlie was not playing his regular 50b3; as, far as I could see on the video. There were not any close-up's of the trombone section. It looked like he might have been using a 50B or a 42B?
I am playing it next week. I have these choices:
1. Greenhoe-Bach 50b3 Yellow Brass Bell
2. Conn Elkhart 62H
3. Bach 42B-YB Bell
4. Bach 50B YB Bell
5 Conn 88HTO-Gen II-Elkhart
The 2nd & 4th movements are not low. The note range in the movements in first line bass clef "G" to high "F", three spaces above the bass staff. Most commonly, the notes fall on the bass staff and slightly above. For those who have not played this work, the trombones frequently double the voices, with the bass (3) doubling the bass voices in that famous 4th movement.
What say you? :idk:[/quote]
I wonder, is this a serious post? Joke? A test? Not knowing about the consert hall, the orchestra and of course the 1st and 2nd trombonists horn, how could anybody ansver that question? I think the OP is pulling our legs. :lol:
</QUOTE>
You are right. Without knowing this you can not adopt to the context which it is all about. I answered as if everything was unknown and my expectation of what would be the probable choice of instruments by the other trombone players. I guess they are limited to one instrument as most non professional players are, and that their instruments are .547 (or possibly .525 horns). Not likely .500 since most classical amateur players I meet use a trombone with a valve. The Bach 50B is not a bad choice in any of those conditions. I also assumed it is not a professional orchestra but a community orchestra hiring a third player (with experience) to fill that chair. I answered on those premises what would then have been my choice as it is a situation known also to me. If it was a professional orchestra you would probably know more about the context and you would probably ask the other tromboneplayers what they will use. It would then not be a question for this forum to guess. Im sure we would never be involved. Any of those trombones is the right choice In the right context. The balance of the section would be my primary goal. To use the instrument closest to what Beethoven would have had access to is in the context of a community orchestra secondary.
/Tom
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I should point out that ddsbstrb is a very experienced player and was a frequent contributor to TTF under his real name. I don't think he was trying to prank us, but was looking for suggestions.
I stand with what I said earlier.
I stand with what I said earlier.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
I know he is an experinced player who does´t need any advice for himself at all, he probably played the 9th many times. He think he wanted a discousion, and he got one. Sometimes the 3rd trombone use a 42 for Beethoven 9, the 2nd may use a 36, the fisrt may use an alto or a small tenor. Depends on the hall, and most of all the conductor.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
The video of CSO linked by Savio, they are playing German trombones.