I took over a big band and I am officially insane!

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-05-26 10:41 p.m.

I'm updating a thread I started on TTF. I play in a big band started over 15 years ago by a WWII vet. He ran the band solo - picked the charts, ran rehearsals, got what few gigs we got. Great guy in a lot of ways but did not listen to others and was stuck in the past. Good subs wouldn't come because of the way rehearsals were run. He became hard of hearing and so I was the conduit from the band to him, as I sat next to him. We needed a PA system, so I bought one out of my own pocket. He promised three years in a row that this was his last year leading the band, and the members hung on hoping things would change once he left. He finally gave it up last fall and sold it to me! I had two quarters as a classical performance major back in the 70s, no music education since, never ran a duet let alone 18 piece big band.

My wife, who was against it at first, decided to go with it and helped me organize the books. What a mess! Over 60 chats were missing at least one part, some three or more. One of the other tbone players offered to be a co-owner and manage getting people to rehearsals and getting subs when needed, the job I hated, so I jumped on his offer. Now he runs the band, really. I was working on getting an occasional gig at a local restaurant/bar, but he got us every other month gigs at a lounge/music club that has big bands at least twice a week. He recruited a killer female vocalist. Our drummer couldn't keep tempo, I was trying to get him to work on that but the other guy brought in a really good drummer, former pro. The other drummer got forced out. Our bass player just said he can't keep up with all the new music and doing a new set list every other month so he resigned. There is talk of finding another bari player as the one we have isn't keeping up.

So, on one hand, this band is finally playing up to its potential and moving ahead much faster than I thought, is no longer primarily a 40s cover band and is now doing more modern and challenging stuff, and has bi-montly gigs (we get paid in free drinks and food discounts) instead of two a year, and subs are lining up to join. On the other hand, two of my friends left because the couldn't keep up, and it is no longer "my" band. I am spending hours some days on band business and it is a lot of work. I am trying to run rehearsals with no experience - we have a sub who runs the jazz bands at two local colleges, and that is intimidating as hell for me! I fear that they will be looking for a new lead trombone player replacing me someday!

Thanks for letting me vent.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-05-27 4:45 a.m.

Sounds like you’re doing a pretty good job.

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2018-05-27 7:18 a.m.

I followed this on TTF. Whatever happens it’s sounds as if the band is in a better place than it was and in less danger of fading away. Well done sir!

boneagain · by **boneagain** » 2018-05-27 10:53 a.m.

Are you running the rehearsals?

Are you projecting competition from the college director? If so, consider the possibility that SOMEtimes a band director LIKES to take a break from having to put in so much effort to hear ALL that is going on, in ADDITION to playing his/her own part. As long as you keep rehearsals interesting and productive (i.e., did everyone have SOMEthing interesting to play? did charts sound better after rehearsing than before? did you not waste too much time letting the sax section get tricky bits under their fingers? did you spend ENOUGH time letting the sax section get tricky bits under their fingers? etc.) your energy is better spent welcoming whatever talent comes through the door rather than fearing challenges that likely won't come up.

OTOH, if all you are doing is playing lead, doing the books, and making sure you maintain whatever for-profit or not-for-profit status you band has, and generally not having any fun except when you are playing, perhaps it is time to sell it along.

BTW: good idea to vent here and not in the band!!!!

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-05-27 1:38 p.m.

[quote="boneagain"]Are you running the rehearsals?

Are you projecting competition from the college director? If so, consider the possibility that SOMEtimes a band director LIKES to take a break from having to put in so much effort to hear ALL that is going on, in ADDITION to playing his/her own part. As long as you keep rehearsals interesting and productive (i.e., did everyone have SOMEthing interesting to play? did charts sound better after rehearsing than before? did you not waste too much time letting the sax section get tricky bits under their fingers? did you spend ENOUGH time letting the sax section get tricky bits under their fingers? etc.) your energy is better spent welcoming whatever talent comes through the door rather than fearing challenges that likely won't come up.

OTOH, if all you are doing is playing lead, doing the books, and making sure you maintain whatever for-profit or not-for-profit status you band has, and generally not having any fun except when you are playing, perhaps it is time to sell it along.

BTW: good idea to vent here and not in the band!!!![/quote]
No, not projecting competition from the band director, more wondering how much of an incompetant idiot he thinks I am. I talked to him afte the last rehearsal and told him to feel free to give constructive criticism to me and/or the band at any time.

Balancing rehearsals sometimes is like trying to herd cats. It is a balancing act between not putting a damper on the better players and throwing too much at others without as much skill. In our dress rehearsal last week, where everybody knew we were going to blow through 20 charts, some members wanted to go back and woodshed this or that section. Others were coming up with changes on the fly - "how about we make the repeat a coda" "instead of the alto, trumpet, and bass each doing 16 bar solos, why can't we work out four bars each" - at dress rehearsal.

Yes, that is what my wife and I have talked about multiple times lately. I could sell my part and step back, just be somebody who manages the folders and counts off in rehearsals but isn't an owner/manager. I love playing bass tbone, and sometimes wish our current bass bone would retire so I could move to that lower stress part. On the other hand, it is an ego boost to have my name on the band business card and be lead bone in an up and coming band.

boneagain · by **boneagain** » 2018-05-27 3:33 p.m.

Sounds like you are doing a nice job of herding the cats :)

Many want their names on the card, but few are willing to herd the cats.

Or even solicity constructive criticism.

Doesn't sound like time to sell it along just yet!

Bass bone player lead the whole Basie band for a good while. There IS life beyond the lead trombone chair!

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2018-05-27 3:49 p.m.

I play in a big band (Rhythm Society Orchestra) that has become a pretty solid staple of the Detroit area swing scene, and the band has people in it from a wide variety of backgrounds. Some players are stronger than others, but as long as everyone plays what they need to and aren't adverse to giving up parts to someone else that they can't play, things work just fine. Not everyone has to be a ridiculous player. While most people get the occasional challenging part or solo, we split up the vast majority of solo work to 3 players: lead alto/clarinet, lead tenor, and 2nd trumpet.

As far as the music itself goes, first I have to say that I am a big fan of really modern, cutting-edge stuff. Maria Schneider, Bob Florence, Bill Holman, James Darcy Argue - there is a long list of big band music that I just love that has been written in the last 30 years. But, don't discount some of the swing era stuff. A lot of it was schlock, which is perfectly fine, and some of it remains very challenging. Check out some of the musicians' bands from the period, especially Jimmy Lunceford and Artie Shaw. Those two bands could play some pretty tough stuff when they want to stretch their musical muscles. And, of course, it's still true today that a true test of a big band's mettle is whether or not they can play Fletcher Henderson's King Porter Stomp at tempo. <YOUTUBE id="S4IC0MkMAUw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4IC0MkMAUw</YOUTUBE>

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-05-27 6:21 p.m.

Thanks! The band as a whole has little interest in playing the old stock arrangements, top line bottom line... Our gig Wednesday we are playing Artie Shaw's arrangement of Begin The Beguine, an arrangement of Birdland, a few Sinatra charts, Skylark tenor solo, Makin Whoopee bass trombone solo, Cherry Pink trumpet solo, This Masquerade with all the trumpets on flugel for part of the tune, Killer Joe, Mack The Knife vocal, At Last vocal... We have a lot of Nestico and Wolpe arrangements, and a few Holman I can think of. We like Ellington and Basie. We have a few Maynard charts, told the trumpets if they want to give them a try we'll back them up. In case anybody really gets cocky, I have two Don Ellis charts!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-05-27 6:25 p.m.

If you want to humble your lead trumpet, pull up MacArthur Park (Maynard arrangement). I've never seen something go so high.

I inherited the Makin' Whooppee solo from the bass trombone before me. He used to play it on a sousaphone. My alternate likes to play it on a Mirafone Contra. The band likes it best when I play it on my bass trombone.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2018-05-27 7:22 p.m.

It's probably more appropriate to start a separate thread on sharing which of the swing-era tunes are fun to play and to listen to, but here's a kind suggestion from Artie Shaw's book:

<YOUTUBE id="qf1Zrm2fASM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf1Zrm2fASM</YOUTUBE>

The musician in me suggests it's too bad that Artie Shaw got burned out on music and left it to become a writer. The dude was a ridiculous clarinetist with a great band. But, we all have to forge our own paths in our lives.

StevenC · by **StevenC** » 2018-05-27 7:47 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]The musician in me suggests it's too bad that Artie Shaw got burned out on music and left it to become a writer. The dude was a ridiculous clarinetist with a great band. But, we all have to forge our own paths in our lives.[/quote]

He really was not cut out to be a pop star. I listen to Gramercy five recordings and other less poppish stuff, and think about what might have been.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-05-27 10:06 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]If you want to humble your lead trumpet, pull up MacArthur Park (Maynard arrangement). I've never seen something go so high.

I inherited the Makin' Whooppee solo from the bass trombone before me. He used to play it on a sousaphone. My alternate likes to play it on a Mirafone Contra. The band likes it best when I play it on my bass trombone.[/quote]

We have MacArthur Park, Hey Jude, and County Road. Also have a Tito Puente chart that gives them plenty to do. I wish our bass tbone player hadn't modified his Holton TR180 by wrapping copper wire around the slide tubes and much of the bell section tubing. He says it focuses the sound. I have the exact same horn and I think it deadens it.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-05-31 11:12 p.m.

OK, first gig is under our belt. <FACEBOOK id="1668687259893978" type="v" user="Forecast88"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/Forecast88/vid ... 3978/?t=24">https://www.facebook.com/Forecast88/videos/1668687259893978/?t=24</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK> for a sample. Me, I'm the bone on the left next to the drummer. Yes, I have an earplug in my right ear! The guy who is half owner is next to be on t-bone. We confirmed two more gigs and have an open invitation to come every other month.

I thought I would feel elated, but I'm just glad it is over. Now, I have to 20 pieces of music back in 16 books, finalize the rehearsal list for Monday, and figure out how to take the audio I had my brother record on a Tascam digital unit into something I can send out to the band. I was hesitant to post the video, I'm my own worst critic, but figured what the heck.

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2018-06-01 7:44 p.m.

Hey man, it sounds good! Bands like that are just for fun and the love of the music. Nobody is ever going to make any money off of running or playing in one. I have played in a community big band for 20 years. I am one of 3 original members still hanging around. We have gotten to be a pretty darn good band lately, with 5-6 real pro level players and 3 really good singers, but I can remember when we weren't too good, but still had a lot of fun. Keep it up and you will have a blast!

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-06-01 11:15 p.m.

Thanks, Mike!

tctb · by **tctb** » 2018-06-02 5:53 a.m.

Try and remember why you play the trombone . It's supposed to be fun! As long as you are having a good time at your gigs why would you want to give it up. As someone else said , nobody else will be keen to take over herding the cats!

It takes a special sort of person to lead a band and it sounds like you are doing a good job.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-06-02 11:11 a.m.

I play trombone because it really attracts girls! Yeah, right.... I played for the last 40 years because I had a highly technical job and it was theraputic to live in another world for a few hours a week. Now that I'm retired, that need is not there. I do like the social aspect of it, kind of like being on an amateur sports team.

I hate to admit it, but I go months at a time without practicing outside of rehearsal. My high school trombone teacher (who encouraged me and had faith in me as a trombone player) was a new member of the Cleveland Orchestra and was principal trombone when he retired, so I have a strong background. I've been coasting on it for 40 years, though. I have to go one of two ways - get serious about practicing and learning how to ad lib solo, or keep coasting.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2018-06-02 11:32 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]I played for the last 40 years because I had a highly technical job and it was theraputic to live in another world for a few hours a week. Now that I'm retired, that need is not there.[/quote]

I never thought that playing in community bands "relieved stress", although I'm sure it did. I just liked doing it. But it (and practicing/performing music in general) does provide an environment in which, for given periods of time, you just can't think about, or be distracted by, ANYTHING else. This is very beneficial.

Now that I'm retired, I value it even more. It provides focus and goals (which for a "technical" person is absolutely essential in some way). It's actually quite decent exercise. It's challenging (and I'm a challenge freak), and it's fun. My other similar activity lately is blackpowder muzzleloading rifle (target) shooting -- in which I am currently dreadful beyond 50 yds., but that provides a great opportunity for tinkering with (18th-19th century) technology, ballistics, and various athletic issues. I'm approaching being an "adequate" community band bass trombonist. Another six months or so should get me solidly to that level. :? The competitive muzzle loader thing appears as though it will take longer. :( But it's the journey more than the destination.

I do like the social aspect of it, kind of like being on an amateur sports team.

I often find the social aspect somewhat irritating. But it is VERY like being on a sports team. In reality, it IS a kind of sports team.

I have to go one of two ways - get serious about practicing and learning how to ad lib solo, or keep coasting.

You can't keep coasting. You'll find that frustrating and unrewarding -- and ultimately you'll "take a break" and maybe end up abandoning the music. That would probably be a mistake.

I (seriously) have to go now and put a new sight on the Great Plains Rifle. I'm sure that will be the key to success. It's always in the equipment. :roll: That's why I have one of the finest $500 bass trombones around.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-06-02 9:47 p.m.

Thanks, gh! I also tinker with cars (installed entirely new suspension on my Mustang GT along with engine mods, etc.) as a hobby. I have to disagree about the coasting. It worked for 40 years. As long as I'm not holding the band back, why not coast? I do admit that I would move to bass tbone in a heartbeat if the current guy left the band and they could find a better lead bone. Not that bass isn't challenging, but to me playing lead is challenginger. Is challenginger a word? :-)

tctb · by **tctb** » 2018-06-03 5:01 a.m.

To quote a well known song " You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone !"

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-06-05 9:28 p.m.

OK, I was really ready to turn it over to the other guy at rehearsal last night. I had e-mailed him asking him to pick the charts and run the rehearsal but he didn't read it, so it was on me. I guess because I didn't care anymore I took more responsiblity for the rehearsal and took less crap from the members, and I ended up having a really good rehearsal.

The lead trumpet player who I respect immensely (I wonder sometimes why he stoops low enough to play with our band) said I played the solo in April in Paris really well and lead a good rehearsal. Our male vocalist said I was spoiling him with all the equipment I brought and he really appreciated it. The drummer (a former pro) and I had a chat after and I mentioned a bit of my concerns. He said he knew how much work it was to choose and pull charts, count them off, keep track of the books, listen to multiple opposing opinions and keep everybody happy, and oh yeah play my part well so no wonder I felt burned out. I called one of our internet challenged members this afternoon to check if he was a go for an upcoming gig and he said I and the other co-owner were doing a great job.

It looks like I'm sticking with it!

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2018-06-05 9:48 p.m.

Don't be afraid to ask people to help out with some of the various tasks of running the band. One guy can't do it all.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-06-05 11:45 p.m.

[quote="Mikebmiller"]Don't be afraid to ask people to help out with some of the various tasks of running the band. One guy can't do it all.[/quote]

The co-owner makes sure we have everybody at rehearsals and gigs, and arranges for subs when needed. That is a big job I am super glad I don't have to do. Our lead trumpet player often brings a digital recorder to rehearsals and will send out clips and/or give constructive criticism on each chart. I bring the music and PA equipment, but band members set up and tear down the chairs and tables we need. They also help me haul my stuff in and out. Members have bought new charts out of their own pockets and donated them, and one of our trumpet players has software that allows him to transpose parts if needed. Still, I spent almost three hours Monday taking 20 charts out of 16 gig books and putting them back in the main books. Another hour today making calls, digging up a Youtube video of a new chart and sending it out to the band, and trying to get a vocal chart in a lower key.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2018-06-06 8:21 a.m.

[quote="Mikebmiller"]Don't be afraid to ask people to help out with some of the various tasks of running the band. One guy can't do it all.[/quote]

I'm with Mike on this. I'm in one big band that includes several band directors. Different people rehearse different tunes. I think it's healthy to hear others approach to tunes.

--Andy in OKC

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2018-06-06 9:09 a.m.

In our band, the actual music director doesn't do anything except run rehearsals (and take all the solos). Another guy does all the scheduling and coordination for concerts and gigs. Another guy runs the library. I do most of the publicity.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-06-06 11:37 a.m.

Thanks, group! I just sent the bass player, a semi-pro, a part he wanted to practice. He responded, thanking me for it, and added that I was doing a great job leading and organizing. Maybe part of my feeling overwhelmed is my own self doubts. I am my own worst critic. I took over when I had a full time job, now that I'm retired I can focus on the band exclusively, which sure helps.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-06-20 9:52 p.m.

Our leader, who started the band 7 years ago, just announced he is moving to another country. Leaves a bunch of interesting questions, like, the band’s bank account, ownership of the charts. I assume the $ and at least some of cost of the charts came from gigs for which no one was ever paid.

1/3 of the band would like to carry on. The rest have not yet been heard from.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-06-21 11:39 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Our leader, who started the band 7 years ago, just announced he is moving to another country. Leaves a bunch of interesting questions, like, the band’s bank account, ownership of the charts. I assume the $ and at least some of cost of the charts came from gigs for which no one was ever paid.

1/3 of the band would like to carry on. The rest have not yet been heard from.[/quote]

Our band's finances were a mystery to all but the leader/owner. I know he paid for most new charts out of his own pocket. He tried to sell the book, stands, name, and some equipment (ancient keyboard amp, three cheap mikes, two mike stands) to me for way too much - he donated all the originals to a local school for a charitable deduction and was selling only the copies! The price came way down, and I bought it with a partner. We do have some members buy new charts or donate their own to help update the book - they are all now agreed to be the band's property. On the other hand, I have members telling me we need to buy this or that chart with no suggestion how to pay for it since we rarely have a paid gig. We have a paid gig in August and some band members want to get paid, others may want the money to go to new charts. I'll have to get that straightened out before the gig for sure!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-07-11 6:25 p.m.

We are making some progress in moving the band forward. There are 4 of us who have taken the lead. Two will take turns conducting, we’ve secured our rehearsal space for a year, and we have free use of the book until Christmas. There’s money in a band account and we’re looking at two or three gigs next fall. We may have to replace several sax players (ages 80 and 86) who are thinking of retiring.

The music is likely to be an issue. At $50 per chart (originals, not copies), it adds up. Fortunately, we can kick that issue down the road.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-07-12 12:41 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]We are making some progress in moving the band forward. There are 4 of us who have taken the lead. Two will take turns conducting, we’ve secured our rehearsal space for a year, and we have free use of the book until Christmas. There’s money in a band account and we’re looking at two or three gigs next fall. We may have to replace several sax players (ages 80 and 86) who are thinking of retiring.

The music is likely to be an issue. At $50 per chart (originals, not copies), it adds up. Fortunately, we can kick that issue down the road.[/quote]

Lots of work having so much fun, right?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-12 6:49 a.m.

One way around the high cost of charts is to "roll your own". I've played in a bunch of bands where they have home-grown charts of standards that are really pretty awful but they seem to sound OK to the audience. This is especially true for the bands playing for Senior Center dancers.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-07-12 9:39 a.m.

There are a series of books of big band standards. "Authentic Sounds of the Big Band Era" has 16 old warhorses and you could probably get a complete set for about $160 to $180, a bit over ten bucks a chart. "Exciting Sounds of the Big Band Era" has 15 charts. Alfred Publishing puts them out.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-07-12 11:53 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]One way around the high cost of charts is to "roll your own". I've played in a bunch of bands where they have home-grown charts of standards...[/quote]
That doesn't get you around copyright issues, though.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-12 1:43 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="63266" time="1531392593" user_id="53">
One way around the high cost of charts is to "roll your own". I've played in a bunch of bands where they have home-grown charts of standards...[/quote]
That doesn't get you around copyright issues, though.
</QUOTE>

It gets you around the arranger copyright issues. It doesn't help you with song copyright issues.

Still, I know a lot of bands who did it.

Some started from "Stocks" and arranged from there.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-07-12 2:33 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Some started from "Stocks" and arranged from there.[/quote]
Yeah, that's probably a fine line. If you start with a standard 4-2-2 + rhythm stock and add a few parts, does that count as a new arrangement (and thus in need of fresh permission from the copyright holder for the tune)? I wouldn't think so, but if someone decided to make an issue of it, it'd be a real pain even if you won out in the end.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-07-12 10:26 p.m.

We’re not going to trade copies of our music for copies of other band’s tunes. Partly out of respect for copyright, partly out of not wanting to play the same music as everybody else.

I’ve got some stuff that falls into some grey areas: a Zappa arr’t that I bought but which I’m sure didn’t have the consent of the Zappa foundation; a couple of SD arr’ts that Fred Sturm gave me; a couple of arr’ts from B Cunliffe that I kept after a big band camp; a D Ellis arr’t that I’ll have to re-arrange (take out the section that says “Freak Out!”), a couple of free but probably illegal charts off the net (eg Maynard’s Chameleon).

I’m not averse to spending a little dough on this. I’ve got an eye on a couple of less expensive M Schneider charts. There’s a Mintzer chart I’ve always wanted to play. Any arr’ts of Sting tunes out there?

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-08-19 9:14 p.m.

OK, we had a gig today, a street festival we do every year. Two wives came up to me independently and said how much tighter and better the band is since the last time. Playing in the band almost weekly, the incremental improvement is sometimes hard for me to hear, but it was obvious to people who haven't heard us in a while. What really matters to me is that one wife is a retired band director and the other is a retired vocalist with a music degree, so I am getting this positive feedback from people who know what they are talking about. A majority of the band donated their pay back to the band to buy new music, which also makes me happy that the band is behind what we are trying to do. Me, I did the t-bone solos in the Basie arrangement of "I Can't Stop Loving You" and "April in Paris" and was finally not unhappy with my performance. My lip was shot by the third go around on at the ending of "April In Paris", but today felt damn good as a player and as a band leader!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-08-19 10:07 p.m.

If the bandmembers donate their pay to the band to buy charts, who owns the charts? If the band breaks up, what happens to the book? Something I’ve been thinking about.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2018-08-19 10:24 p.m.

I found this interesting : " ------------------ sometimes wish our current BASS BONE would retire so I could move to that LOWER STRESS part." Did you ever play a Tom Kubis arrangement ? ----- I didn't think so ----------------.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-08-19 10:43 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]If the bandmembers donate their pay to the band to buy charts, who owns the charts? If the band breaks up, what happens to the book? Something I’ve been thinking about.[/quote]

Good question. Not something I am contemplating for many years. I guess if it folded, the two of us who each put up half the original purchase price would get our investment back and the rest would be distributed among the members.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-08-19 10:58 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]I found this interesting : " ------------------ sometimes wish our current BASS BONE would retire so I could move to that LOWER STRESS part." Did you ever play a Tom Kubis arrangement ? ----- I didn't think so ----------------.[/quote]

No, never did. We play a lot of Nestico and Wolpe arrangements. Ellington and Basie. If the bass bone part of a Kubis arrangement is above my skill level, I would think that the lead tbone part would be out of my league too...

boneagain · by **boneagain** » 2018-08-20 8:49 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]<QUOTE author="2bobone" post_id="65844" time="1534731859" user_id="185">
I found this interesting : " ------------------ sometimes wish our current BASS BONE would retire so I could move to that LOWER STRESS part." Did you ever play a Tom Kubis arrangement ? ----- I didn't think so ----------------.[/quote]

No, never did. We play a lot of Nestico and Wolpe arrangements. Ellington and Basie. If the bass bone part of a Kubis arrangement is above my skill level, I would think that the lead tbone part would be out of my league too...
</QUOTE>

I gotta go with Mr. Kraft on this one: if your band is playing Wolpe and Nestico and your bass bone is NOT as stressed as you are, you are not working him hard enough :)

When the balance is right between the bass, bari, and bass bone against the upper voices, the bass bone should KNOW he's had a work out, and should be sweating at least a few of the exposed crunchy, stand-out bottom bits in the counterpoint. Wolpe is not above putting some pedal bits in, and seldom does that unless he wants them HEARD so, once again, not so much lower stress... just different.

I'd say try the 3rd book, but even though the range is seldom difficult, THAT book seems like a make-it-or-break-it for the section sound. The third seems to have the biggest tuning challenges built into the part. A third with a great ear for pitch and dynamic balance makes a section sound huge. Any faults in those areas and the section is disproportionately diminished.

Maybe better stick with lead, especially after a gig like that last one! At least the lead gets RECOGNITION for all that stress. Bass works his tail off and the best he can really hope for is someone to complement the LEAD with, "the section sounded good tonight." Those also serve...

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-08-20 11:52 a.m.

I played a .547 bore horn as my primary horn from 1972 until about 2008, picking up the bass in the late 80s and moving to small bore only about ten years ago, so I it makes sense I am more comfortable personally on lower parts. A while back I played bass bone in a band that had a similar book, a band good enough to get a monthly gig at a jazz club in Indianapolis. There is a really good local big band here in Cleveland at a level well above mine led by the bass bone player. Our band gets compliments on our trombone section playing as a whole, balanced and in tune. I'm not one of those players that has to be on the first book no matter what, I got thrust into the role in this band. I don't look down on the guys playing the lower parts. Playing ANY part well isn't easy.

dershem · by **dershem** » 2018-08-24 8:36 p.m.

Bands like that can be fun. I was co-leader of an 18 piece rehearsal band for the last 10 years (Been a part of the band since '85), mostly doing library work. The senior co-leader handled all of the personnel problems, and there were a lot - people would flake and not get subs, people would get subs who couldn't cut the music, having trouble getting a stable rehearsal space - all that - until this spring, when he finally called it quits. Now I'm getting the library in shape in case someone steps up to do the hard work. Of about 900 charts, probably 1/3 are missing a part or more! :o (Fortunately, I'm a decent copyist/arranger, so the book is improving week by week in my 'copious spare time")

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-08-25 8:52 p.m.

I just resigned as music director and sold my share of the band to the other owner. I plan on continuing on as a player on whatever trombone part the band needs me to play.

This was a tough decision for me. It is something I had to do for my own well being, and for the long term good of the band. I am handing my duties off to the next carrier of the flame, whoever that may be, knowing I helped the band survive the founder's leaving and then had a part in helping it thrive and improve.

I told the band vian e-mail and encouraged them to support Jeff, the new sole owner.

Greg

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-08-25 9:11 p.m.

Running a band is a lot more than playing. In fact, the playing is a very small part. If you aren't adapted to being the force behind the scenes, what you did is best. Good luck to the band.

boneapart · by **boneapart** » 2018-08-26 1:15 a.m.

dershem -

You say, "Of about 900 charts, probably 1/3 are missing a part or more! :o (Fortunately, I'm a decent copyist/arranger, so the book is improving week by week in my 'copious spare time") Good grief. That'll take forever. Bet I can supply many of them from my extensive library. Got a list?

boneagain · by **boneagain** » 2018-08-26 8:55 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]I just resigned as music director and sold my share of the band to the other owner. I plan on continuing on as a player on whatever trombone part the band needs me to play.

This was a tough decision for me. It is something I had to do for my own well being, and for the long term good of the band. I am handing my duties off to the next carrier of the flame, whoever that may be, knowing I helped the band survive the founder's leaving and then had a part in helping it thrive and improve.

I told the band vian e-mail and encouraged them to support Jeff, the new sole owner.

Greg[/quote]

Does this mean you are no longer "officially insane"?

Kudos to you for keeping the flame alive long enough to pass it along!

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-08-30 9:44 p.m.

I gave a quick explanation at rehearsal this week. I came clean with my clinical depression as a reason for my stepping down (I don't know who felt the most awkward at that point, me or the band) and asked their understanding. The band was very supportive. We had a great rehearsal after. Selling my half and backing off of all the decision making was very freeing. I think I can probably continue to handle lead 'bone and librarian duties plus run rehearsals and count off at gigs.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-09-17 10:43 p.m.

OK, didn't work out as planned. I tried to run last week's rehearsal like before, but kept getting walked over and the owner didn't back me up. I told him tonight I just wanted to play, so he chose the charts to rehearse and counted off the tempos. It got to be chaos with the bass player and drummer both trying to run the rehearsal, but again the owner/2nd bone didn't stand up to them. The lead trumpet pissed off the lead tenor. We rehearse until 9:30, but as of 9:10 I just couldn't stand it. I didn't say a word, I just packed up my horn and left. Who is taking the music home I don't know, I just know it isn't me. We have a dress rehearsal next Monday and a gig Wednesday. I can't leave them in the lurch so will do those, but after that I am taking a break. Don't know for how long yet. Just finished my second margarita. S**t should hit the fan tomorrow, but right now I don't care.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-09-18 12:26 a.m.

My condolences. Hope they sort themselves out. It may get kinda ugly for a while.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2018-09-18 8:09 a.m.

Sounds like the band doesn't have a clear focus on what they want to do. That can be pretty frustrating.

On a different note, I have a couple of friends with clinical depression. It can be pretty rough for them, especially when they are transitioning to new meds.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-09-18 12:38 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]Sounds like the band doesn't have a clear focus on what they want to do. That can be pretty frustrating.

On a different note, I have a couple of friends with clinical depression. It can be pretty rough for them, especially when they are transitioning to new meds.[/quote]

Our old drummer got replaced against my gut instincts. The new owner thinks it was a good move, I think it traded one set of problems with another. Our old bass player couldn't keep up with the work needed to do new gigs every two months, especially after we went from two rehearsals a month to weekly, and the new bass player is a buddy of the new drummer. It seems like they think they are the center of the band, more important than the rest of us.

The new owner's dream was to do these bi-monthly gigs at a club, it wasn't mine. There are four members (lead trumpet, bass, drums, owner) besides me who seem to have opinions, the rest just show up and play.

The original med I was on worked for only a few days. I switched and it took weeks before I felt better, but now six weeks in I feel it isn't working as well. That said, the band issues would have driven me nuts even if I was 100% healthy. I'm glad I have a supportive, understanding, patient wife.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-10-02 9:45 p.m.

I can't believe it. I offered to come to last night's rehearsal and say goodbye, but the leader said he would let the band know what is happening and to stay home. I heard nothing from band members today, so I called our 2nd alto. She said there was no mention of me at all or why I wasn't there, no news that I was on hiatus. She also said the day after last week's gig the lead alto told her he quit, but the band leader didn't mention that either, just thanked the sub. All this just solidifies that my decision to leave was the right decision. My two other playing venues are a brass quintet and a community band that the big band leader also plays in, and to make things worse the brass quintet rehearses at his house tomorrow. The fun continues...

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-10-07 9:15 p.m.

I had sent feelers out to a local community orchestra. The bass trombone player just went in the hospital and they asked me to Monday's rehearsal for a concert next Sunday. I haven't played in an orchestra in 15 years or so. This ought to be interesting!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-10-08 10:15 a.m.

Good luck. I just finished a concert with an orchestra where I was a sub. I think they may ask me back.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-10-08 1:14 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Good luck. I just finished a concert with an orchestra where I was a sub. I think they may ask me back.[/quote]

The conductor just e-mailed that one of the t-bone players already found a sub, sorry, but he wants to use me later this season. I am both relieved and disappointed.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2019-02-05 11:12 p.m.

Ok, things are looking up. The community band I joined is getting better all the time. The conductor does an adult music education class and asked me to be in a brass quintet, first time in over 40 years playing baroque music and boy does it feel good! I also joined the oldest big band in Cleveland, The Townsmen. http://www.cleveland.oh.us/wmv_news/jazz126.htm Their focus is having fun playing music people have fun listening to. Tonight we played out of a book meant for school bands with some Miles Davis tunes and Chicago's 25 or 6 to 4. I have never played Miles before and always wanted to, really enjoyed it. I dug up my inner Pankow and took some of the Chicago chart up an octave and got a lot of thumbs up on that one. I was able to give some input and help fix a trouble section on one chart. I told the co-leaders I am happy to help but if I get too pushy just tell me to ST#U. It isn't the best band I've played in, but it sure is fun. Interesting mix, half black and half white, ages from 20-something to 80-something. Their singer is a real Motown throwback, and I mean that in a nice way. Lady sat in and sang "Respect", hope she comes back.

Have cut my dose of anti-depressant to half the recommended minimum dose with approval of my doc, and that plus some bio-available B12 got me feeling better than I have in a year. I hope to make peace with the guy who took over my old band soon. I started a part time job, delivering parts for a local auto parts store and doing stocking, running the register, etc. Having a ball! My other hobby besides music is cars (my wife and I have a pair of Mustang GT convertibles that we have modified. My last muscle car was a 500 horsepower 70 Road Runner 440 six barrel I retrofitted with a Tremec 5-speed and hydraulic clutch) so this is right up my alley.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-02-05 11:38 p.m.

Good on you Greg for pulling things back together.

I left the big band I was involved with. I found the experience mostly unrewarding and anxiety- producing. I missed playing and I was getting run down being out several nights a week. I was spending way too much time driving. Something had to give.

Two takeaways:

1. I will behave better at rehearsals (less chitchat) and

2. The trombones always drag.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2019-12-05 10:37 p.m.

Had a chat today with the former lead trumpet player in my old band, Scott. He was probably the best player in the band. He quit because it was no longer fun, and instead of being a co-op where everybody had input he said the guy who bought it from me now runs it as an autocrat. Funny, the new owner complained to me when he joined the band years back that the old owner/founder was too autocratic! The band used to have low turnover but in the last year or so the drummer, bass, keyboard player, lead trumpet, lead alto, and lead bone (me) have quit.

I'm finally in a good place personally. The big band I joined has a new music director who knows that he is doing. We actually sound good! On top of that, Scott said he has some charts for small big band (is that an oxymoron?) as well as full big band charts, and I have a good library of my own. My wife is all for the two of us starting our own band. Stay tuned for updates!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-12-05 11:33 p.m.

Good luck with your planned new band.

I used to play with a "Little Big Band" that was 2 trumpets, 2 trombones, 3 saxes, piano, drums, and bass. 10 pieces. Our leader was the lead sax, who was a dynamite clarinet player and sang in the style of Dean Martin or Bobby Darin. Sadly, he had an alcohol problem as well as other issues and the band folded.

But a "little big band" is real.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2019-12-17 4:17 p.m.

Thanks, Bruce! I was digging through my basement music area and found two boxes of big band dance music I had picked up at a garage sale and forgotten about. Over 120 big arrangements from 1924s thru late 50s. Lots of Johnny Warrington. Not the most challenging stuff, but nice to have in my back pocket if needed.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-12-17 4:23 p.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]Thanks, Bruce! I was digging through my basement music area and found two boxes of big band dance music I had picked up at a garage sale and forgotten about. Over 120 big arrangements from 1924s thru late 50s. Lots of Johnny Warrington. Not the most challenging stuff, but nice to have in my back pocket if needed.[/quote]

Ah, yes. Johnny Warrington stocks. Those are mostly simple, but don't treat them too lightly. A lot of charts from that era have some surprisingly tricky syncopation that pops out of the blue.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-08-14 6:13 p.m.

OK, resurrecting this thread for an update. Last week I sat in with the big band that was doing bi-monthly gigs at a club. This is the band that the guy who took over my band wanted to copy and is playing the same club. It was their first rehearsal in a year and a half, and man did we sound good! Three of us bones were subs. I'm hoping one of the three regulars doesn't come back because if there is an opening I'm told it's mine. Oh, yeah, switched antidepressants again and I'm feeling normal. Yay! I tallied it up and as of today the first and second trumpets, lead and second alto, bass, drums, keyboards, and the lead bone (me) quit the old band due to conflicts with the new guy. Yep, he forced out half the band.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-08-14 6:43 p.m.

Congrats. Hope things work out.

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I took over a big band and I am officially insane!