Dream Trombones?

ZiggyAzalea · by **ZiggyAzalea** » 2019-06-24 3:55 p.m.

If you had an unlimited budget, what 1 trombone would you buy?

All bets are off, whether it's a vintage jazz horn or a top of the line concert trombone, if you could have any one tenor or bass, which would you choose?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-06-24 3:59 p.m.

I would probably get a Rath R3 with the nickel bell, a Rotax valve and the straight neckpipe. Although it would probably still just be a nice runner up to the '68 Elkhart 88h I already have.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2019-06-24 4:05 p.m.

My SCHWING horns would be a Thein Universal bass and F Contra!!

sterb225 · by **sterb225** » 2019-06-24 4:08 p.m.

I think a Thein Universal tenor or Inderbinen Quart.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-06-24 4:35 p.m.

My achievable dream is having a nice Holton 169 or early TR185. I still miss the early TR185 I had!

If I dream big... I'd love to have M&W whip something up for me... either a Holton style single valve with a plugin valve or a setup similar to Minick.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2019-06-24 5:08 p.m.

Glassl alto with sterling silver bell.

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2019-06-24 5:12 p.m.

My dream would be always moving to the next horn. I enjoy the hunt more than the kill. First stop, Rath.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-06-24 5:32 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]My achievable dream is having a nice Holton 169 or early TR185. I still miss the early TR185 I had![/quote]

Those were for a long time on my list too. I’m fortunate to have found two Holton TR185, both with a removable second valve ("birdsnest") and also one fantastic Holton 169.

I have most if the horns I want and new horns are not on my list, only vintage. In the future I might consider a Williams 6 if I could try the horn over here or if someone wanted to sell me a Wessex F-Contra for a fair price and arrange for me to try before I buy. Often I don't know until it happens. It might be someone offers to sell me their horn and then I know that's the horn I want.

/Tom

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-06-24 5:37 p.m.

Hmm. I'm on the lookout for a good Bach 12 or 16. Maybe a Laetzsch contra.

But otherwise, I really like the horns I have... or I wouldn't be playing them! That doesn't mean they'll be with me forever, but if I didn't enjoy playing them I would get something else. There's no reason to settle for less than stellar trombones, at their price point.

bimmerman · by **bimmerman** » 2019-06-24 5:51 p.m.

For me, it was a Sterling Plus 16M and (after playing one) a 9. Then over time I found and bought them, and they're awesome, and now there isn't much need for me to keep looking for horns. I haven't played a money-no-object horn before though, and I'm not sure I really want to learn how mistaken I have been....

adryalm · by **adryalm** » 2019-06-24 7:39 p.m.

Wouldn't it be awesome to own one of our hero's horns?

Maybe Frank Crisafulli's holton? Ralph Sauer's Conn?

Adam

Specialk3700 · by **Specialk3700** » 2019-06-24 9:08 p.m.

Give me a M&W and I'll never look in the classifieds again

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2019-06-24 9:30 p.m.

I just want my .508 bore shires that I traded in back. Let it go because I needed something less beastly for a gig that ended up not being worth it. I contacted the new owner once about it, he's happy with the horn and won't let it go - I can't blame him, it's a great horn. Best salsa horn ever. The horn I traded it for is a great horn, the shires just fit me better.

I have a Williams 6 (a Bob) that I love, and hopefully I don't make the same mistake with this one. It's special.

Bach42t · by **Bach42t** » 2019-06-24 9:52 p.m.

Brand new, perfect Conn 88HSGX, traditional wrap and rotor. An achievable dream.

Bloo · by **Bloo** » 2019-06-24 10:56 p.m.

There are two that I want.

First one would be a King 3B, pre 1970. Full silver plate exterior, gold plate on the interior bell. .508 bore, with a traditional wrap F attachment. Mint condition.

It would be my ideal jazz horn. My school has one similar, and it's such a treat to play on.

My ideal tenor is a Conn 88hcl. Love the valve action. Want a heavy gold plate bell with some fancy engravings on it.

Ideal bass would be a 62hc, with an F/G/Eb valve config. Also with heavy gold plate and fancy engravings.

I'm a sucker for Conn horns.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2019-06-25 3:02 a.m.

a Thein Universal alto with red brass Kruspe bell

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-06-25 4:09 a.m.

Solid gold 10 ft tall trombone statue that resembles the sword in the stone.

You said any budget right? :lol:

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2019-06-25 4:10 a.m.

A contra.

But you said "tenor or bass", so I'd probably go with a custom Shires bass or an Arkbone.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-06-25 4:54 a.m.

Already have my ideal tenor trombone ... But a Shires alto that played like their TIS but with a much lighter slide would be nice. Maybe cut a bit shorter where both the bell and slide meet, so that I actually needed/could use the TIS ...

I played the yellow one at ATW, but it just made me sad, because I knew my struggle needed to continue on the alto that I already have.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-06-25 6:29 a.m.

King 3b silversonic

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2019-06-25 2:35 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]Glassl alto with sterling silver bell.[/quote]

Yes!

Tremozl · 2019-06-25 3:40 p.m.

I would have a custom or modified BBb Contrabass Trombone with F and Gb attachments, a mostly open wrap, and Hagmann valves.

Jnoxon · by **Jnoxon** » 2019-06-25 4:08 p.m.

Williams from LA or Burbank. Models 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I own both LA and Burbank horns from Earl and they play like nothing else....

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-06-25 4:19 p.m.

[quote="Jnoxon"]Williams from LA or Burbank. Models 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I own both LA and Burbank horns from Earl and they play like nothing else....[/quote]
I don't just want any Williams. I want Spike's horn.

Kevbach33 · 2019-06-25 4:21 p.m.

I had always dreamed of owning a Shires bass for big band work. And now that there are more options available, I'm more curious than ever. It'd probably be specified like this, or something close:

B62LNYC slide. This is a longer slide, not lightweight. Nickel silver tubes and sleeves, yellow crook. May not be the right arranging of the L but the point is clear.

Independent rotary valves in F/G/Eb (when will they introduce dual bore valves for basses?)

BYC tuning slide, maybe even BYB

BI 2DM -- More compact taper, medium weight Deutsch rose brass with unsoldered bead. This is in between their yellow brass and gold brass (85/15). (If they don't offer this material for bells, why is it listed on the site under bells? Can someone clarify this?)

For small/medium bore, I'd go for a K&H Bart Van Lier .512 with F, and possibly go for the gold brass bell and lightweight slide. Large tenor TBD.

For classical, an F/CC/D bass (not contra) with similar specs to that Gronitz F bass at the Horn Guys, but with a longer slide (.562" bore) with a handle to play the Bartok Concerto, and shorter bell section.

And a Thein BBb contrabass trombone. Because why not?

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2019-06-25 8:17 p.m.

A Thein Star Valve or Universal. Or a Yamaha YBL-605 (the “German” bass of them).

But actually I would like some custom parts to modify my current bass more. Namely .547”-.563” dual bore slide, gold brass bell, and maybe all-nickel silver slide also.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-06-25 8:38 p.m.

I’d like a Yam 612.

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2019-06-25 10:58 p.m.

For a bass I'd like a Duo Gravis (not silversonic) from 1981 if possible (i can't find production years on it currently) modded by BAC with instrument innovations valves, converted to Bb/F/D open wrap, Williams style handgrip, with a carbon fiber slide.

For tenor, already have it (1981 King 3B+/f) but want to get a bit of work done on it...Williams style handgrip, instrument innovations rotor, open wrap and carbon fiber slide also from BAC.

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2019-06-25 10:59 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I’d like a Yam 612.[/quote]

Bass ybl-612? I had one!! First bass i owned. Sold it to upgrade to my 62h.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2019-06-26 3:49 a.m.

[quote="whitbey"]<QUOTE author="HawaiiTromboneGuy" post_id="88129" time="1561410513" user_id="3695">
Glassl alto with sterling silver bell.[/quote]

Yes!
</QUOTE>

:good:

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-06-26 4:32 a.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]Glassl alto with sterling silver bell.[/quote]
I thought by now you'd own everyone's dream horn! You've already got two Williams 10s for Christ's sake!

tctb · by **tctb** » 2019-06-26 4:53 a.m.

My choice would be a Rath. Go to the factory and experience having a trombone made up to your own specifications. Enjoy trying out all the possibilities before deciding on what you want . If you later want to change something you can!

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-06-26 7:35 a.m.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2019-06-26 12:57 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="HawaiiTromboneGuy" post_id="88129" time="1561410513" user_id="3695">
Glassl alto with sterling silver bell.[/quote]
I thought by now you'd own everyone's dream horn! You've already got two Williams 10s for Christ's sake!
</QUOTE>

Ha! I still need more horns!

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2019-06-29 6:12 p.m.

Surprised noone's put this out there yet - I'd go for Jeff Reynolds' Minick contra.

A Thein BVD contra would be ok as well...

For something that would actually get played, one of these days someone will build a .500 bore 7.75" nickle bell....

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2019-06-30 3:41 a.m.

I already own my dream trombones!

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2019-06-30 8:26 p.m.

I would go with I also own my dream horn. Sterling silver Edwards. And when you go to dream trombones, my stable is a happy one. I do want to upgrade my alto someday. Sterling silver bell and a nickle doubore slide with a trill valve.

flotrb · by **flotrb** » 2019-07-21 1:09 p.m.

King 1490S 7B DuoGravis with Mt Vernon Bach 1½G mouthpiece

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-07-21 1:54 p.m.

[quote="flotrb"]King 1490S 7B DuoGravis with Mt Vernon Bach 1½G mouthpiece[/quote]I have a 2107 7B from 1980 and a Mount Vernon 1 1/2 G mouthpiece. Not for sale, but if you are in southern New Hampshire and we can meet up you can try mine.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2019-07-21 3:11 p.m.

My Schilke/Greenhoe tenor is the dream horn I never knew I wanted... it was always Conn style in my dreams!

I'm working closer to my dream bass. Hopefully an M & W, with a one-piece gold bell, yellow tuning slide, dependent valves, and a dual-bore yellow slide with a nickel crook- and of course my newly-refinished MV 1 1/2G, blowing through a sterling Bach 50 pipe.

Of course I need to finish my thesis, and get one of those fabled six-figure engineering jobs before I can drop ~$8K on another trombone. In the meantime, my Conn Frankenbass will do just fine!

afugate · by **afugate** » 2019-07-22 9:36 a.m.

I'd like an easy-to-play F-Contra that is as light as a feather but still projects like a laser cannon.

Oh, and some pixie dust! lol

-- Andy in OKC

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-07-22 4:09 p.m.

[quote="afugate"]I'd like an easy-to-play F-Contra that is as light as a feather but still projects like a laser cannon.

Oh, and some pixie dust! lol

-- Andy in OKC[/quote]

Have you not tried the Rath R90 ?????

Chris

afugate · by **afugate** » 2019-07-22 6:08 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="afugate" post_id="90197" time="1563802563" user_id="86">
I'd like an easy-to-play F-Contra that is as light as a feather but still projects like a laser cannon.

Oh, and some pixie dust! lol

-- Andy in OKC[/quote]

Have you not tried the Rath R90 ?????

Chris
</QUOTE>

No. Perhaps I should start saving my money? (And/or pixie dust? :lol: )

I should note that I'm not a big guy. I'm still hoping for my growth spurt, but so far it's evaded me for 52+ years!

-- Andy in OKC

BflatBass · by **BflatBass** » 2019-07-22 7:35 p.m.

A custom bass from BAC: .562 single bore nickle slide with the same width between the tubes as an Edwards B502, Independent Instrument Innovations valves, open valve wrap designed to my specs with a bore slightly larger than the slide (.578?), interchangeable leadpipes, sterling silver 9.5" bell with gold inner plating and some really cool custom ingraving. Also the bell brace would be positioned to allow me to wrap my thumb around it and the hand brace on the slide would be curved and ergonomically "correct".

Either that or a Butler C12 bass.

Robert

Tarkus697 · by **Tarkus697** » 2019-08-09 10:47 a.m.

This one:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-rath-r ... rmationtab">https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-rath-r2f-bb-f-tenor-trombone.html#informationtab</LINK_TEXT>

Aside from concert band/symphonic work, this would cover everything I need for my wedding/events band and funk gigs for the rest of my life. And it's convertible, should I not need the trigger.

*drool*

virtualhaggis · by **virtualhaggis** » 2019-08-09 6:04 p.m.

My dream horn is one that makes me play jazz like Mark Nightingale and classical like Jorgen van Rijen.

I tried to get the first one - I have a Rath R10 with the Rath s11 MN mouthpiece but unfortunately it’s rubbish - I play nothing like Mark Nightingale <EMOJI seq="1f620" tseq="1f620">😠</EMOJI>

hulabone · by **hulabone** » 2019-08-09 9:49 p.m.

1957 Bach 42 with a Shires True Bore valve.

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2019-08-10 1:49 p.m.

I`m extremely happy with all my horns but.... if $$$$ is no option...

I`d love a Bach Lt8G

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-08-11 11:14 a.m.

Large bore tenor and bass - Stomvi titan

Small bore tenor- King 3b silversonic

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-08-11 11:44 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]Large bore tenor and bass - Stomvi titan

Small bore tenor- King 3b silversonic[/quote]

Did you try one of the stomvis? How do they play for you?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-08-12 1:39 p.m.

no but I heard them and they sound amazing. a nice dark solid tone.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-08-13 8:42 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]no but I heard them and they sound amazing. a nice dark solid tone.[/quote]

well that may as well be the players, not the bone. Isn't it?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-08-13 2:36 p.m.

Could be but it still seems like a nice horn

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-08-13 3:30 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]Could be but it still seems like a nice horn[/quote]

They sure look very good!

TheTrombone17 · by **TheTrombone17** » 2019-08-15 9:11 a.m.

Right now I have a Bach strad 42, but it was made in the 70s back when they were still good horns.

xenethon · by **xenethon** » 2019-09-30 10:51 p.m.

I am getting mine done now, should arrive in 2 weeks: B.A.C. Sterling Silver Bell #6 .500/.508 carbon fiber slide, with personalized counterweight and engravings!

joemende27 · by **joemende27** » 2019-10-09 3:49 p.m.

[quote="xenethon"]I am getting mine done now, should arrive in 2 weeks: B.A.C. Sterling Silver Bell #6 .500/.508 carbon fiber slide, with personalized counterweight and engravings![/quote]

Post some pictures when you get it!

Bassbonechandler · by **Bassbonechandler** » 2019-10-09 5:27 p.m.

I would love to have all M&W trombones some day. Especially their version of a conn 88h.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-10-10 2:34 a.m.

I really wanted to like the beautiful M&W horns at the ATW, but I couldn't find one that spoke to me. They were immaculate, though.

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-10-10 3:15 a.m.

Hmm Rath R3F with a nickle slide, rotax valve and red brass bell.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-10-10 5:21 a.m.

[quote="RConrad"]Hmm Rath R3F with a nickle slide, rotax valve and red brass bell.[/quote]

Uuuh, that sounds good!

Bassbonechandler · by **Bassbonechandler** » 2019-10-10 6:48 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I really wanted to like the beautiful M&W horns at the ATW, but I couldn't find one that spoke to me. They were immaculate, though.[/quote]

Even if you don't love the way they play, you have to admire the build quality. I had a chance to play someone's independent tis horn at ITF which was awesome. But, not everyone will love them.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2019-10-10 8:15 a.m.

[quote="Bassbonechandler"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="95804" time="1570689248" user_id="3642">
I really wanted to like the beautiful M&W horns at the ATW, but I couldn't find one that spoke to me. They were immaculate, though.[/quote]

Even if you don't love the way they play, you have to admire the build quality. I had a chance to play someone's independent tis horn at ITF which was awesome. But, not everyone will love them.
</QUOTE>

I had only one M&W so far that I got new in a trade. A great horn for sure, build quality was flawless. To me it played great, but only when I was in top shape.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-10-10 9:37 a.m.

[quote="Bassbonechandler"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="95804" time="1570689248" user_id="3642">
I really wanted to like the beautiful M&W horns at the ATW, but I couldn't find one that spoke to me. They were immaculate, though.[/quote]

Even if you don't love the way they play, you have to admire the build quality. I had a chance to play someone's independent tis horn at ITF which was awesome. But, not everyone will love them.
</QUOTE>

Totally agree. Something about the aesthetic and the way they did the laqeuer was exquisite.

Bassbonechandler · by **Bassbonechandler** » 2019-10-10 10:20 a.m.

[quote="cozzagiorgi"]<QUOTE author="Bassbonechandler" post_id="95809" time="1570704500" user_id="3504">

Even if you don't love the way they play, you have to admire the build quality. I had a chance to play someone's independent tis horn at ITF which was awesome. But, not everyone will love them.[/quote]

I had only one M&W so far that I got new in a trade. A great horn for sure, build quality was flawless. To me it played great, but only when I was in top shape.
</QUOTE>

I feel the same about my greenhoe, it highlights my mistakes quite well :D

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-10-10 2:09 p.m.

[quote="cozzagiorgi"]Uuuh, that sounds good![/quote]

I had to think about that one a little bit as I haven't had the chance to play many horns. I like me some red brass and nickle though. Maybe if I get a good engineering position my wife will let me have one. :shuffle:

Russjones92 · by **Russjones92** » 2019-11-05 12:38 a.m.

If my budget was no object stock horn would be a Douglas Yeo Xeno Bass or the Edwards Pagano. Otherwise I'd have a custom horn built by Yamaha <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>

SwaggyG · by **SwaggyG** » 2019-11-25 11:47 p.m.

Late to the party?? Who cares! Olds Super Featherweight, King 3b Silversonic, Yam Ysl-891, Holton Tr169

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2019-11-26 2:39 a.m.

I would like someone to build the large bore cousin of a 48H with Electro-D bell, interchangeable trigger and a couple of slides with different bore.

The characteristics I’m looking for are the curiously dark and centred sound at low to medium dynamics, huge projection and stability at high dynamics without getting too woofy. Blending may be tricky though!

xenethon · by **xenethon** » 2019-11-26 9:25 p.m.

I said I would put the pictures, here they are; my brand new, B.A.C. custom, STERLING silver bell, .500/.508 carbon-fiber slide, based on Williams #6 (7.75 inches bell), with personalized counterweight (Saturn's ring around the B.A.C. counterweight), custom thumb ring, Paseo handgrip and very personalized engraving :D

The carbon-fiber slide counters some of the brightness of the sterling silver bell, but you could say instead that the sterling silver bell counters the carbon-fiber's deadening effect too. The combination is a beast that can still talk loud but blends in much better at lower volume compared to traditional sterling silver instruments. It will take some time to get used to, this horn has so much personality! :cool:

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2019-11-28 8:43 a.m.

Maybe a Butler JJ. I have a Butler outer slide on my 2B and it’s just wonderful.

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2019-11-28 10:56 a.m.

New or vintage is the first question that comes to mind.

When it comes to new two horns come to mind

Rath R3F with the Rotax, Nickel Bell, red turning slide, and yellow brass slide with nickel crook - I think that was parts combo that I played at 2018 ITF and was great. Far beyond my budget.

The second is the Latzsch SL-240 is the one that I really covet. Everything I love about an 88H with the Rotax valve already in place. For half the money of the Rath this would be my first choice.

I'd really consider a Shires Q30 with the traditional valve or the Yamaha Xeno 882 with the close wrap but yellow or gold bell is up for debate on either of these.

If you are talking vintage, I'd love an Elkhart 88H set up with a Rotax valve and removable lead pipe for additional versatility. Essentially the large bore twin to my 79H with the Rotax.

PaulT · by **PaulT** » 2019-11-28 10:59 a.m.

My dream trombone would play as smooth as gravy and have the meaty tone of a crisp juicy turkey fresh off the Weber layered with the sweet overtones of a freshly baked apple pie.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-05-31 12:30 a.m.

[quote="adryalm"]Wouldn't it be awesome to own one of our hero's horns?

Maybe Frank Crisafulli's holton? Ralph Sauer's Conn?

Adam[/quote]

Alessi’s personal Edwards, I wonder if he still has it, now that he’s a Shires artist. Perhaps we’ll see it on classifieds one day?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-31 12:56 a.m.

I had a chance to play Dick Nash's trombone last year. Not only is Dick a wonderful person and a true gentleman (and a trombone genius), his trombone was a dream to play. I'd love to own it just to see if Dick left any spare notes inside, but would be too embarrassed to play it in public! :oops:

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-05-31 1:11 a.m.

Theres a German seller that has a gorgeous looking 72H with a nickel plated bell.

Beyond that its hard to say what 1 horn I'd like to have.

I'd love to have my 1st 72H i stupidly traded to dj Kennedy.

tomchall · by **tomchall** » 2020-05-31 2:31 a.m.

What are the new M&W, Greenhoe trombones like? They haven't broken the market in UK yet but hopefully M&W will find a dealer in the UK one day.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2020-05-31 2:36 a.m.

[quote="tomchall"]What are the new M&W, Greenhoe trombones like? They haven't broken the market in UK yet but hopefully M&W will find a dealer in the UK one day.[/quote]

The M&W's are nice. Excellent craftsmanship and attention to detail. Had only large bore tenors so far, excellent Orchestral horns.

Would love to try a bass.

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2020-05-31 11:11 a.m.

It is good to see sterling silver bells made. My Edwards with the sterling silver bell is a dream horn.

I hope to get an alto bone someday with a sterling bell.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-05-31 6:50 p.m.

There is a Reynolds Contempora bass out there with an independent Greenhoe setup. I am a sucker for copper bell trombones, I'd get the whole trombone family but with pure copper bells, mainly because I think copper bells look sexy.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-31 7:19 p.m.

[quote="Hobart"]There is a Reynolds Contempora bass out there with an independent Greenhoe setup. I am a sucker for copper bell trombones, I'd get the whole trombone family but with pure copper bells, mainly because I think copper bells look sexy.[/quote]

Reynolds Contempora trombones do not have pure copper bells. These bells are a bronze alloy that Reynolds called "Bronze-o-lyte." [Perhaps a variation of Bell Bronze, a very hard alloy that consists of one part tin (20%) to four parts copper (80%)].

http://contemporacorner.com/trombones/contempora-bass/

However, it seems that the Contempora bass trombones had bells with a greater copper content than the Contempora tenor trombones. Hard to verify.

http://contemporacorner.com/features/bronzolyte/

But there is no question that the Contempora bells, whether tenor or bass trombone, have an attractive copperish red color, and that many of these trombones look and play great.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 7:37 p.m.

Alessi’s personal Edwards, I wonder if he still has it, now that he’s a Shires artist. Perhaps we’ll see it on classifieds one day?

One of Joe's last prototype Edwards Alessi horns has passed hands from Edwards down through three people I know (maybe I should have bought it). My old roommate has it now, and it's a monster horn especially with a matching mouthpiece of some flavor. Even still, I might choose to play new Shires Alessi Q over that horn; they are that good.

The Edwards only likes to be played a certain way and to achieve a certain sound. If you play exactly that way the sound is a glorious one, but it's just not really for me. The new Shires Q (I haven't gotten a chance to play the other one) felt like exactly what it is- fundamentally a Shires, but one that leans in the direction of the old Edwards.

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-05-31 9:41 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE>

Alessi’s personal Edwards, I wonder if he still has it, now that he’s a Shires artist. Perhaps we’ll see it on classifieds one day?[/quote]

One of Joe's last prototype Edwards Alessi horns has passed hands from Edwards down through three people I know (maybe I should have bought it). My old roommate has it now, and it's a monster horn especially with a matching mouthpiece of some flavor. Even still, I might choose to play new Shires Alessi Q over that horn; they are that good.

The Edwards only likes to be played a certain way and to achieve a certain sound. If you play exactly that way the sound is a glorious one, but it's just not really for me. The new Shires Q (I haven't gotten a chance to play the other one) felt like exactly what it is- fundamentally a Shires, but one that leans in the direction of the old Edwards.
</QUOTE>

I play one right now! The horn is very sensitive and timbrally flexible, and Joe Alessi's sound is my sound concept, so it works very well!

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 9:46 p.m.

[quote="ericcheng2005"]<QUOTE author="Mv2541" post_id="114945" time="1590968266" user_id="247">

One of Joe's last prototype Edwards Alessi horns has passed hands from Edwards down through three people I know (maybe I should have bought it). My old roommate has it now, and it's a monster horn especially with a matching mouthpiece of some flavor. Even still, I might choose to play new Shires Alessi Q over that horn; they are that good.

The Edwards only likes to be played a certain way and to achieve a certain sound. If you play exactly that way the sound is a glorious one, but it's just not really for me. The new Shires Q (I haven't gotten a chance to play the other one) felt like exactly what it is- fundamentally a Shires, but one that leans in the direction of the old Edwards.[/quote]

I play one right now! The horn is very sensitive and timbrally flexible, and Joe Alessi's sound is my sound concept, so it works very well!
</QUOTE>

I was referring to the fact that this horn was owned and played by Joe himself. The others I have tried have been good, but none quite like that one. I used to joke with the owner that he should leave me that horn if I outlive him.

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-05-31 9:50 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="ericcheng2005" post_id="114957" time="1590975687" user_id="8940">

I play one right now! The horn is very sensitive and timbrally flexible, and Joe Alessi's sound is my sound concept, so it works very well![/quote]

I was referring to the fact that this horn was owned and played by Joe himself. The others I have tried have been good, but none quite like that one. I used to joke with the owner that he should leave me that horn if I outlive him.
</QUOTE>

On a tangent about horns owned by pro players, some people specifically try to find and buy horns owned by pro players, because "the molecules of the material of the horn are set to give a good resonance". Would you say this has any credibility?

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 10:21 p.m.

Ummmmmm I seriously doubt they can do anything on a molecular level. Mouthpiece sizes are usually measured to roughly the 10th of a mm or so, which is nowhere close.

The thing is, if a top player likes the horn it's usually for a reason right? I'm sure Joe spent a lot of time dialing in the horn in prototype stage to get it where it is, and Edwards is usually pretty consistent.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-05-31 11:32 p.m.

:trebleclef: 4[quote="Mv2541"]Ummmmmm I seriously doubt they can do anything on a molecular level. Mouthpiece sizes are usually measured to roughly the 10th of a mm or so, which is nowhere close.

The thing is, if a top player likes the horn it's usually for a reason right? I'm sure Joe spent a lot of time dialing in the horn in prototype stage to get it where it is, and Edwards is usually pretty consistent.[/quote]

Their essence embeds it's self in the spirit of the horn, and gathers strength from each pro that plays it. I went on a whole rant on anorher thread that explains this <EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI>

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-05-31 11:42 p.m.

Working on building mine! Right now it’s a Shires SS1 sterling silver bell, German brass seamed tuning slide, and switch back and forth between a straight neck and a standard rotor. I’d like to try a trubore on it. An MK42 nickel leadpipe finishes it up. I also have a TW47 slide, but it’s a bit heavy, especially with the straight neckpipe. I’d like to try a butler carbon fiber outer to lighten it up some.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-06-01 12:36 a.m.

[quote="Hobart"]There is a Reynolds Contempora bass out there with an independent Greenhoe setup. I am a sucker for copper bell trombones, I'd get the whole trombone family but with pure copper bells, mainly because I think copper bells look sexy.[/quote]

I’m the one selling that horn on behalf of my friend. If I could afford it I’d definitely pick it up as a backup bass.

LeoInFL · by **LeoInFL** » 2020-06-01 3:51 p.m.

Yeah, I'd probably get the Butler C12 bass with the screwbell option. I'd order an indy Latzsch carbon fiber valveset and have it sent to Butler to incorporate.

And probably a really, really nice 'small' bore cimbasso.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-06-24 2:47 a.m.

[quote="ihomi"]Hello, I’d like a Jupiter JTB720VR Trombone. This is one of the best options for all Trombone players.[/quote]

Me too. But I can't discover how I kand buys one? Where can I find?

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2020-06-24 3:38 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ihomi" post_id="117488" time="1592975552" user_id="9565">
Hello, I’d like a Jupiter JTB720VR Trombone. This is one of the best options for all Trombone players.[/quote]

Me too. But I can't discover how I kand buys one? Where can I find?
</QUOTE>

<span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> I see what you are doing here :-)

RoscoTrombone · by **RoscoTrombone** » 2020-06-24 2:29 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ihomi" post_id="117488" time="1592975552" user_id="9565">
Hello, I’d like a Jupiter JTB720VR Trombone. This is one of the best options for all Trombone players.[/quote]

Me too. But I can't discover how I kand buys one? Where can I find?
</QUOTE>

I've been wondering for a while now what I could get to enhance my meagre collection and now I know!! Now I just need to find a place that has them readily available....

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-06-24 2:48 p.m.

"I have a dream ..." (Martin Luther King, 1963). ;)

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-06-24 8:28 p.m.

[quote="RoscoTrombone"]I've been wondering for a while now what I could get to enhance my meagre collection and now I know!! Now I just need to find a place that has them readily available....[/quote]

If only such a place existed!

Anonymous · 2020-06-24 9:15 p.m.

[quote="ZiggyAzalea"]If you had an unlimited budget, what 1 trombone would you buy?

All bets are off, whether it's a vintage jazz horn or a top of the line concert trombone, if you could have any one tenor or bass, which would you choose?[/quote]

Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe

2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe

3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom

4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell

5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto

6. Slokar alto

7. Shires alto- gold brass bell

fwbassbone · by **fwbassbone** » 2020-06-24 10:20 p.m.

I have a Schilke/Greenhoe Indie TIS bass and an Edwards B502 and really I don't know of another bass I like to have. Maybe a Butler bass.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-06-25 4:00 a.m.

I have a set of Shires that are really good, and a Yamaha 613H when I want darker sound, and a good Bach 36. So I have pretty much what I want. I really good alto would be nice but really I don't need it! Buy I do have a Yamaha 421G bass that plays very nice with an Edwards slide. I love to find a second bell section and have it set up for a double valve section, I think this would make a nice commercial horn!.

u_11561man · by **u_11561man** » 2020-06-29 9:40 a.m.

I'd say a pre-Mt. Vernon era Bach 16. Solid and classy. :good:

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-06-29 12:36 p.m.

[quote="11561man"]I'd say a pre-Mt. Vernon era Bach 16. Solid and classy. :good:[/quote]

Evidently people and play these, but I never could. I have tried several times. Cool to hear someone who considers that a dream horn.

For me, I don't really have one...but maybe something based around a Bach 36-42.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-29 7:32 p.m.

[quote="ericcheng2005"]<QUOTE author="ZiggyAzalea" post_id="88120" time="1561406124" user_id="3337">
If you had an unlimited budget, what 1 trombone would you buy?

All bets are off, whether it's a vintage jazz horn or a top of the line concert trombone, if you could have any one tenor or bass, which would you choose?[/quote]

Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe

2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe

3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom

4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell

5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto

6. Slokar alto

7. Shires alto- gold brass bell
</QUOTE>

That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-06-29 7:41 p.m.

What does XL even mean in Shires speak?

HGrobot · by **HGrobot** » 2020-06-29 7:49 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]What does XL even mean in Shires speak?[/quote]
I believe it’s part of XLW, for extra light weight. It’s not on their site, but I have some recollection of it being mentioned in a conversation I had with a local rep for Eastman a year or two ago.

Anonymous · 2020-06-30 12:53 a.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="ericcheng2005" post_id="117554" time="1593047726" user_id="8940">

Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe

2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe

3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom

4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell

5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto

6. Slokar alto

7. Shires alto- gold brass bell[/quote]

That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.
</QUOTE>

I looked at the Shires website and blended everything I liked about Conn and Bach bells into one bell, and this was the result haha. It's a monstrous model number compared to a 7YLW or 2RVE, but its one of those "just to see what would happen" things lol. Especially with that dual alloy red brass stem, yellow brass flare, I doubt they've made any of those.

My teacher plays a Slokar, and he recommended one if I ever get an alto, and the Shires alto just looks cool and I've heard favorable reviews of it here. :)

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-06-30 12:56 a.m.

[quote="HGrobot"]<QUOTE author="mrdeacon" post_id="118113" time="1593474111" user_id="3239">
What does XL even mean in Shires speak?[/quote]
I believe it’s part of XLW, for extra light weight. It’s not on their site, but I have some recollection of it being mentioned in a conversation I had with a local rep for Eastman a year or two ago.
</QUOTE>

Yes, it does mean extra light weight. There's been a couple of them on Trombone Marketplace and the classifieds over here, I think.

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-06-30 12:58 a.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="ericcheng2005" post_id="117554" time="1593047726" user_id="8940">

Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe

2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe

3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom

4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell

5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto

6. Slokar alto

7. Shires alto- gold brass bell[/quote]

That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.
</QUOTE>

And maybe we do have similar taste, red brass FTW! I only put the Theins for the flexing factor haha

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-07-06 2:16 a.m.

[quote="ihomi"]Hello Folks,

I like Yahama Trombone YSL-354 Trombone.

plz try it once.[/quote]

Yahama? Never heard of it.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-07-06 2:28 a.m.

[quote="ihomi"]<QUOTE author="ericcheng2005" post_id="118925" time="1594016192" user_id="8940">

Yahama? Never heard of it.[/quote]

Then, King 2B & Jupiter JTB700 is also a better options.
</QUOTE>

If youll sell me a 2B for the price of a yamaha 354 ill take it!

deanmccarty · by **deanmccarty** » 2020-07-06 4:00 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I would probably get a Rath R3 with the nickel bell, a Rotax valve and the straight neckpipe. Although it would probably still just be a nice runner up to the '68 Elkhart 88h I already have.[/quote]

I have this setup with a red brass tuning slide, and yellow hand slide... it is a SWEET horn. I hardly ever switch to the straight neck pipe... I also have a similar setup on my R4 (but with a red hand slide and a Hagmann valve). Both are fantastic... but if I had to choose, the R3 is just a stellar instrument.

deanmccarty · by **deanmccarty** » 2020-07-06 4:14 p.m.

I have been lucky to be in the position to have just about every “dream” instrument that I want. I even purchased a Willson 2900 euphonium. That is the euphonium that I had always wanted. The only instrument that eludes me right now is a Rath R90 contrabass trombone. I would love to have one, but I’m not sure that the price tag warrants the limited paid use that I would give it.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-07-06 4:51 p.m.

[quote="deanmccarty"]I also have a similar setup on my R4 (but with a red hand slide and a Hagmann valve). Both are fantastic... but if I had to choose, the R3 is just a stellar instrument.[/quote]

How big a difference is there between the R4 and the R3? Can you compare either or both to an 88h Elkhart?

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-07-06 8:45 p.m.

[quote="deanmccarty"]I have been lucky to be in the position to have just about every “dream” instrument that I want. I even purchased a Willson 2900 euphonium. That is the euphonium that I had always wanted.[/quote]

A Willson euph is my dream euph as well. The sound is something else.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-07-06 10:54 p.m.

If we're talking euphs, I want one of the compensating ones that's front-action. I'd even settle for one of the normal American styled ones with four valves, for some reason I like their timbre a little better.

pmgtrombone · by **pmgtrombone** » 2020-07-06 11:26 p.m.

Most of my trombones are pretty dreamy to some degree or another ... I suppose there is a slot for that Minick BBb/FF/DD double valve BBb contra on Brass Ark -- SO MUCH TUBING!!!

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2020-07-07 1:39 a.m.

I have been an Edwards Artist for years now and still believe this to be the instrument maker’s products allow for me to get the most out of trombone playing, by far.

If I could choose a horn that is not an Edwards however, I would love to own an old Elkhart 62H that is in GOOD condition with usable valves, ideally with the triggers adjusted from the thumb-thumb set up. I once had the chance to try one (Minnick improves) and it was amazing.

deanmccarty · 2020-07-08 7:59 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]How big a difference is there between the R4 and the R3? Can you compare either or both to an 88h Elkhart?[/quote]

The best way to describe the differences between these two in words... well... the R3 is extremely light and nimble in sound. I don’t want you to think bright... just a lighter sound than the R4. Paired with the correct mouthpiece, the R3 makes for a perfect 1st trombone in a wind band setting, or in an orchestra that isn’t playing anything heavy. Perfect Mozart instrument. It is a great chamber instrument... or solo instrument (depending on the literature).

The R4 is a traditional large bore tenor that work wonderfully in any large ensemble setting. In orchestral settings I am able to push massive amounts of air through it without it breaking up (unlike an 88H). Addressing your question directly... I would say that this instrument would fit in between a Conn 88H and a Bach 42 as far as quality of sound. It gives you the beautiful soloist is quality of an Elkhart Conn, but gives you the ability and power to play in an orchestral setting.

The setup on my R3 is a nickel bell, red tuning slide, yellow hand slide. For me that is perfect for salsa and other Latin music where I need the lightness of a small bore, but the power of a large bore. When I throw the f-attachment (Rotax) on, it adds a little more support to the sound, making it a superb small ensemble instrument.

The setup on my R4F is a nickel bell, red tuning slide, red hand slide, and a Hagmann valve with a heavy cap. This is a heavier instrument that works well for me in large ensembles. I have never had an issue with the sound breaking up. This was actually my first Rath instrument. I was a Shires guy before... at ITF year after year Mick would remember me... he finally convinced me to at least try one of his instruments out. On my Shires instruments I was very pleased with my bass and small tenor setups... but for some reason, I just could never find a large tenor that worked for me. I tried different combinations on the Shires... and the went to different manufacturers... I finally decided that size just didn’t work for me... I would play it, but I was never satisfied.

Well... when I finally decided to try out Mick’s .547 tenor, I went in with what I thought I would like. I’m a traditional rotor guy... Thayer valves just don’t get along with me... I had never tried a Hagmann valve, but I had tried other oversized valves before with mediocre results. So... I went in wanting a horn with a rose bell, Rotax valve, and a nickel slide. I’m not going to lie... I hated the instrument. But, I gave Mick a fair shot... he asked what exactly I was looking for out of a large tenor... he did some switching around a few times... I was set on the Rotax valve, so he didn’t change that... he finally went to the nickel bell, red tuning slide, and red hand slide, and Rotax valve. I played that... and it was ok... but still couldn’t push the sound I had in my head, but it was closer than anything I had ever played... but not good enough. I told him I was going to just stay with what I had... and he said “just one more switch... I promise”. He went and put the Hagmann valve on with a heavy cap... same setup except that... and OH MY! There it was... finally.

I have never had anyone put the time in to “me” like Mick had... he treated me as if I was Conrad Herwig... I’m just a normal guy who plays in the studio and regionally... I had worked with Steve Shires before and Christan Griego and they were both selling their horns, but were not at all invested like Mick. Mike Corrigan and I had a good relationship, but his product is different when it comes to large bore instruments... all that aside... Steve and Christan make great horns... Mick REALLY stands behind his product in a personal way. He went out of his way to ask what I was looking for, and knew his product. For the first time in my life I found a large bore tenor that truly worked for me. I cannot say enough about his customer service... and his product matches right up to it.

Now, everything that I play is Rath. As for which one plays more like an Elkhart Conn... I would go with an R3F with a nickel bell, red tuning slide, and red hand slide... as for attachment... the Hagmann will give the instrument more stability, but the Rotax will give you a lighter sound. I would try both... there WILL be a difference in sound and feel.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-07-08 8:20 a.m.

@DeanMcCarty,

Thanks for that. I've played an R3, and really loved it. I wasn't ready at that time to put money down. It would be nice to have a nice horn like that. Right now I'm mainly playing 79h. I tried a Shires with the same setup, but it just didn't do it for me - too heavy playing.

Thanks for the setup tips. I might not have guessed all the red brass. I do like Hagmanns, but I like the lighter sound and simpler mechanics more, so I'd probably go Rotax as well. If you hear of an available used setup, raise a flag. Thanks again.

silverslideman · by **silverslideman** » 2020-08-21 7:17 a.m.

[quote="LeoInFL"]I'd order an indy Latzsch carbon fiber valveset and have it sent to Butler to incorporate.[/quote]

Hi Leo. Does the Lätzsch CF valveset exist? Do you have any other info, or a link, please? Looked at their site, but nothing immediately obvious. Interesting, as I'm wondering about a C12.

TIA.

Kevbach33 · by **Kevbach33** » 2020-08-25 11:39 p.m.

Updated original post on page 1 with additional dream horns and a couple questions about the Deutsch rose brass Shires offers for their seamed tuning slides that I'll ask here. Is this alloy available for their bells? If not, why is it listed on their site under the bells link? If yes, why does it say, "Only available for seamed tuning slides."?

As for mouthpieces to pair with these dream horns:

Thinking Doug Elliot's system would get me where I need to be...

Tenor would revolve around the LT101 rim, I'd say.

D cup/D3 shank (my Bach 5 as backup) for small tenor, and F/F8 (5GS as backup) for large, maybe F+ or G/G8.

Bass would be probably LB110? Not sure here since I don't play as much bass now...

J/J8 for jazz, L/L8 or L10 for classical, probably.

And CB118, P cup plus whichever shank fits the contra, which is probably tuba sized.

tskeldon · 2020-09-02 10:03 p.m.

Thein Old German Friedman Style (German Style cues), .508/520 dual bore, with convertible F attachment, and thumb operated water key. [I seldom use an F-attachment anymore because 1.) extreme alternate positions make otherwise awkward melodic passages doable, and 2.) I play lyrical TENOR trombone and have not much need.] Today's price: $11,000 US + tax and import duties.

I am looking for an attractive, small ‘ish bore tenor, wi th a sweet, singing, resonant sound to uses as a recital instrument, and wondered if this might work. I don’t play orchestrally anymore, so I don’t require extreme volume, just an instrument that speaks quickly in service of all registers.

I played every crappy trombone concerto and sonata written (and hated most of it), so now I play only transcriptions of music whose pedigree can't be questioned. But playing Schumann, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, etc. requires longer phrases than trombones typically can’t entertain, so I’ve developed new modes of play.

I play much of the time in 4-7 position, using extreme alternate positions to facilitate what would otherwise be impossible technical demands at speed. Additionally, I require an instrument with a thumb operated water key, because there is no time to empty it between long-breathed phrases.

I have developed, I think, a 'hybrid' sound, wherein notes in extreme alternate positions, supported by optimal mouthpiece impedance matching, are grown indistinguishable from common positions. Their are many kinds of beauty in this world. I require only that I participate in ‘some’ form of it.

If it is the case that I don't play sufficiently loud or euphonic to satisfy the current performance paradigm, either because the tone is 'tenor' rather than baritone (in the vocal sense), or because my technique defeats conventional slide awkwardness, I'm am much gratified by efforts and the evolution.

The question is...has anyone (other than contra-bass trombonists) actually played one of these. Thein is waiting on my decision. Here it is:

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2020-09-02 10:24 p.m.

Here are the rest of the Thein Old German Friedman Model pics.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2020-09-03 10:51 a.m.

And if we're adding baritones/euphoniums, an Alexander 151 Kaiser Euphonium, on the right (or less desirably, a Miraphone 56A), for want of the same philosophical oversight of tenor quality over baritone (in the vocal sense). I have what is very good relative, or merely average perfect pitch (I can't perform freakish tricks), so I don't have the usual problems (though I do have those intonation problems associated with this condition when playing in ensemble with people gifted with moveable pitch). Otherwise, I don't even know why 'slide' trombones have tuning slides (and indeed antique, replicas and vintage instrument don't). They are redundant unless your ear isn't good enough to challenge your commitment to the authority of neuromuscular memory.

I haven't moved the tuning slide on my Williams 4 since I got it, except to clean it, and I manage to record with backing tracks (sans auto-tune) brilliantly. Conceptually, I now have as many positions, existentially, as their are notes. As soon as I let go of the idea of a trombone having 7 positions (and being overly euphonic) that require modest compensation, extreme alternates ceased to propose tuning problems, and, more interestingly, so too did they lose their funky 'alternate' sound (by and large) for being 'fed' what they needed, and allowed to exist in place. I required them to participate tonally with similitude of quality, and that they develop their fullest potential. I believe in the note, and so it has, over time, come to manifest better than I would ever have expected.

bassboneman69 · by **bassboneman69** » 2020-09-04 7:25 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]My achievable dream is having a nice Holton 169 or early TR185. I still miss the early TR185 I had!

If I dream big... I'd love to have M&W whip something up for me... either a Holton style single valve with a plugin valve or a setup similar to Minick.[/quote]
Yasss!!!

This!

Driswood · by **Driswood** » 2020-10-02 8:11 a.m.

Already have it.

1957 Conn 6H. Used to belong to Les Benedict. Over sleeves have been removed to lighten the outer slide. Lead pipe has been pulled, so I can use custom pipes.

Done

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2020-10-02 12:00 p.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]The question is...has anyone (other than contra-bass trombonists) actually played one of these. Thein is waiting on my decision. Here it is:[/quote]

I have played one of the Thein Friedman model. I was a bit disappointed with it, honestly. It was heavy and not at all resonant like some of the original Kruspe instruments I've tried.

You might be happier with the Thein Classic model. Similar specs, but with a nickel-silver slide and just built lighter.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2020-10-02 12:03 p.m.

[quote="silverslideman"]<QUOTE author="LeoInFL" post_id="115039" time="1591041099" user_id="3096">
I'd order an indy Latzsch carbon fiber valveset and have it sent to Butler to incorporate.[/quote]

Hi Leo. Does the Lätzsch CF valveset exist? Do you have any other info, or a link, please? Looked at their site, but nothing immediately obvious. Interesting, as I'm wondering about a C12.

TIA.
</QUOTE>

It's called the Latzsch Full Flow Valve. Strange that they don't have anything on their website touting it. It's a really great valve: super smooth, very open, and quick and easy to maintain. It's not carbon fiber, it's "carbon." I'm not sure if this means graphite or some sort of resin-impregnated carbon dust or what, but it isn't a woven fiber.

Oslide · by **Oslide** » 2020-10-02 3:22 p.m.

[quote="Driswood"]Already have it.

1957 Conn 6H. Used to belong to Les Benedict. Over sleeves have been removed to lighten the outer slide. Lead pipe has been pulled, so I can use custom pipes.

Done[/quote]

What's your preferred leadpipe, if I may ask? Thank you.

ronnies · by **ronnies** » 2020-10-02 3:35 p.m.

I already have my dream bass trombone, though it's quite new to me. It's an 'early' Shires Tru-Bore bass with two bell options and two tuning slides.

I also like my tenor (a straight 42) but I'd like it better if it was a 42B or an 88H. :-)

Ronnie

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-10-02 3:51 p.m.

Before I became a collector I had the opportunity to try several trombones by Jurgen Voigt in a shop here in Sweden. There were all kinds of tenor trombones, also suqbuts and even some modern design of suqbuts. Very interesting horns and easy to play. Many had that tone ring on the bell that Olds Super 15 trombones have. They were here in the shop just for a very short period, many models, about 20 different instruments to try at least. At the time I was on hunt for my first bass trombone so I was not very interested in another tenor. I needed the money for a bass and those tenors were not cheap. Many times I have regretted that I did not just buy one or two of those horns. If it was today I would do it. This was twenty years ago and my economy did not allow for those horns back then. They disappeared back to Germany the next week. Never seen any of those horns in Sweden since.

/Tom

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2020-10-02 11:01 p.m.

[quote="bbocaner"]<QUOTE author="tskeldon" post_id="124533" time="1599098601" user_id="3471">
The question is...has anyone (other than contra-bass trombonists) actually played one of these. Thein is waiting on my decision. Here it is:[/quote]

I have played one of the Thein Friedman model. I was a bit disappointed with it, honestly. It was heavy and not at all resonant like some of the original Kruspe instruments I've tried.

You might be happier with the Thein Classic model. Similar specs, but with a nickel-silver slide and just built lighter.
</QUOTE>

Thank-you! Can I ask, did you get the sense that it was projecting rather than resonating? It is often the case that instruments do one at the expense of the other, though most haven't taken the time to explore this effect. I'm convinced that instruments that reward the player too often fail the audience (or the microphone). In terms of physics, an instrument that vibrates does so because it has failed to pass its energy forward in a predictable way, and often provides a pleasant but inaccurate tonal perspective to the player (see below). I feel that it was the case in the 70's (when I was playing), that Bachs projected and Conn's vibrated; which is why I think that players, not me, preferred (to some degree) the Conn's feedback (I was required to play a Conn though), but failed to understand that their sound, at least from the audience's perspective, was...less loud, robust, resonant or engaging than they thought, while Bachs tended to do the opposite. As a student, I was foolish enough to propose this to the section but it was not received well.

Recently I have come to realize that there is an impedance component to matching mouthpieces that creates this same effect: the note seems to materializes at, in (most ring), or somewhere in front of the bell (least ring) as a function of varying impedance caused by changing mouthpiece parameters. I am indifferent to where the sound seems to materialize first, as long as it provides me with an accurate aural perspective of what I sound like in the hall. [Note: it has been my recent experience that when I choose a set-up that 'doesn't' utilize or 'cause' the instrument to augment my perception of my tone, every aspect of my playing improves as the sound then more closely matches the 'feel', and that...transparency or accuracy rewards you with immediacy necessary to control the sound, a note, a slur, etc. before it goes sideways.] It is usually the case that the one that sounds the least immediate causes the most remote effect. If this is true, professionals should service their obligation and play the instrument that best serves the audience sonic receipt, instead of defaulting to their own egos by playing an instrument that scratches their itch while short-changing the audience (albeit nominally). Amateurs, for failing an audience, are free to weave the fabric of their own delusion to best serve their hobbyist pursuit of music.

Thanks again!

Driswood · by **Driswood** » 2020-10-03 7:57 a.m.

[quote="Oslide"]<QUOTE author="Driswood" post_id="126873" time="1601640671" user_id="165">
Already have it.

1957 Conn 6H. Used to belong to Les Benedict. Over sleeves have been removed to lighten the outer slide. Lead pipe has been pulled, so I can use custom pipes.

Done[/quote]

What's your preferred leadpipe, if I may ask? Thank you.
</QUOTE>

It came with a Conn 2 and Conn 3 pipes, from a 100H. I sold them, didn't care for them.

I'm currently using the original pipe, but I'm going to try a BrassArk Burkle pipe in nickel silver.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-10-03 10:07 p.m.

a double slide BB flat contra that's easy to play with a great sound!

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-10-03 11:29 p.m.

[quote="modelerdc"]a double slide BB flat contra that's easy to play with a great sound![/quote]

good luck

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-10-04 11:43 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="modelerdc" post_id="126992" time="1601777248" user_id="3210">
a double slide BB flat contra that's easy to play with a great sound![/quote]

good luck
</QUOTE>

I would bet the Thein, Minick, and Brad Close BBbs have a great sound, and are as easy to play as a trombone that big can be. It's probably just the Miraphone and clones that aren't!

Kevbach33 · by **Kevbach33** » 2020-10-04 2:49 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="126994" time="1601782179" user_id="8680">

good luck[/quote]

I would bet the Thein, Minick, and Brad Close BBbs have a great sound, and are as easy to play as a trombone that big can be. It's probably just the Miraphone and clones that aren't!
</QUOTE>

Might as well probably throw in the 3 of 4 Conn BBb contras (the 4th is smaller, likely easy to play but raspy, based on Noah's description from the Brass Ark) that the Miraphone and clones are based on in the "rather difficult to play, but rewarding when played well," category. "I put out what you put in," rather than, say, "I will help you put out what you want to put in."

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-10-04 3:08 p.m.

[quote="Kevbach33"]Might as well probably throw in the 3 of 4 Conn BBb contras (the 4th is smaller, likely easy to play but raspy, based on Noah's description from the Brass Ark) that the Miraphone and clones are based on in the "rather difficult to play, but rewarding when played well," category. "I put out what you put in," rather than, say, "I will help you put out what you want to put in."[/quote]

That small bore Conn that was on the BrassArk is a next-level dream trombone for me.

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2020-10-08 10:46 a.m.

One of my dreams just came true...

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-10-08 12:35 p.m.

Now that I've become a full time bass tbonist my new dream horn would be a bone stock (sorry for the pun) Conn 71H in like new condition. I guess I have simple needs!

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2020-10-08 1:32 p.m.

[quote="biggiesmalls"]One of my dreams just came true...[/quote]

Oooooh you lucky guy!

euphobone · by **euphobone** » 2020-10-09 10:23 a.m.

I would customize a Duo Gravis to have a larger bore size through rotors and F and D slides, but maintain the same wrap. Just a curiosity of mine...

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-10-09 7:20 p.m.

I just got one in the mail today ooooooh ain't purdy!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-10-09 8:09 p.m.

WOW! Beautiful. :good:

What mechanisms on the valve linkages! They'll keep you busy just maintaining adjustment.

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-02-27 4:12 p.m.

[quote="Jimkinkella"]Surprised noone's put this out there yet - I'd go for Jeff Reynolds' Minick contra[/quote]

Just got one to try out. Will take awhile to tame the beast.

Otello · by **Otello** » 2024-02-27 7:38 p.m.

I would love to get my hands on a Bach 42A. I just find Hagmann valves so unique even though they are really expensive.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-02-27 7:47 p.m.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]<QUOTE author="Jimkinkella" post_id="88455" time="1561846339" user_id="132">
Surprised noone's put this out there yet - I'd go for Jeff Reynolds' Minick contra[/quote]

Just got one to try out. Will take awhile to tame the beast.
</QUOTE>

Is that even a Minick mouthpiece I see in there?

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-02-27 8:51 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="MahlerMusic" post_id="235530" time="1709068323" user_id="6405">

Just got one to try out. Will take awhile to tame the beast.[/quote]

Is that even a Minick mouthpiece I see in there?
</QUOTE>
Yes, it is a Minick L Contra mouthpiece. I can't find specs anywhere for it. I did not liking it at first but it is growing on me. I wanted to move to a 2A like most other player but I have no idea if it will be bigger or smaller.

Here it is compared to my 1G and 1/2G

chouston3 · by **chouston3** » 2024-02-27 9:51 p.m.

Give me about three more years and I will want an Arkbone or a Greenhoe Bach.

In the meantime, the 891z is my dream horn for small bore.

MichaelMedrick · by **MichaelMedrick** » 2024-02-28 1:23 p.m.

If I had the money and the time to really evaluate, i'd love to tru a King 3B plus. It as likey as not would be a

Rabbit Hole for me. i try other .525 trombones and come right back to a Bach 36.

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2024-02-29 5:07 a.m.

[quote="xenethon"]I said I would put the pictures, here they are; my brand new, B.A.C. custom, STERLING silver bell, .500/.508 carbon-fiber slide, based on Williams #6 (7.75 inches bell), with personalized counterweight (Saturn's ring around the B.A.C. counterweight), custom thumb ring, Paseo handgrip and very personalized engraving :D

The carbon-fiber slide counters some of the brightness of the sterling silver bell, but you could say instead that the sterling silver bell counters the carbon-fiber's deadening effect too. The combination is a beast that can still talk loud but blends in much better at lower volume compared to traditional sterling silver instruments. It will take some time to get used to, this horn has so much personality! :cool:[/quote]

Wow, that's beautiful.

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2024-02-29 5:21 a.m.

If money really is no object, my dream would be to put a trombone research facility together. Proper bond villain lair stylee.

I'd hire the best physicists, metallurgists and acoustics engineers money could buy, plus the other specialists they tell me to, and tell them to go back to first principles and work out what makes the best trombone possible. Hell, even roboticists too. I bet there's scope for all sorts of assisted tech that could make even a "perfect" trombone better. Would auxilliary air support help? What about mechanically assisted valves that can be timed to switch in a minima in the waveform passing through them? Or how about dynamic mouthpiece, leadpipe, or even bell flair shape that adjusts to what you're playing in real time?

I'd be amazed if that kind of investment wouldn't pay off with a step-change in what we think of as possible for the trombone.

stewbones43 · by **stewbones43** » 2024-02-29 10:20 a.m.

[quote="mgladdish"]If money really is no object, my dream would be to put a trombone research facility together. Proper bond villain lair stylee.

I'd hire the best physicists, metallurgists and acoustics engineers money could buy, plus the other specialists they tell me to, and tell them to go back to first principles and work out what makes the best trombone possible. Hell, even roboticists too. I bet there's scope for all sorts of assisted tech that could make even a "perfect" trombone better. Would auxilliary air support help? What about mechanically assisted valves that can be timed to switch in a minima in the waveform passing through them? Or how about dynamic mouthpiece, leadpipe, or even bell flair shape that adjusts to what you're playing in real time?

I'd be amazed if that kind of investment wouldn't pay off with a step-change in what we think of as possible for the trombone.[/quote]

This sounds brilliant but I think there is one other thing which is needed; a replacement for the endlessly variable, ultimately unreliable part which fits onto the larger, open end of all trombone mouthpieces. (Check it in the mirror!)

Cheers

Stewbones43

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2024-02-29 10:28 a.m.

[quote="stewbones43"]<QUOTE author="mgladdish" post_id="235755" time="1709202066" user_id="13350">
If money really is no object, my dream would be to put a trombone research facility together. Proper bond villain lair stylee.

I'd hire the best physicists, metallurgists and acoustics engineers money could buy, plus the other specialists they tell me to, and tell them to go back to first principles and work out what makes the best trombone possible. Hell, even roboticists too. I bet there's scope for all sorts of assisted tech that could make even a "perfect" trombone better. Would auxilliary air support help? What about mechanically assisted valves that can be timed to switch in a minima in the waveform passing through them? Or how about dynamic mouthpiece, leadpipe, or even bell flair shape that adjusts to what you're playing in real time?

I'd be amazed if that kind of investment wouldn't pay off with a step-change in what we think of as possible for the trombone.[/quote]

This sounds brilliant but I think there is one other thing which is needed; a replacement for the endlessly variable, ultimately unreliable part which fits onto the larger, open end of all trombone mouthpieces. (Check it in the mirror!)

Cheers

Stewbones43
</QUOTE>

Well there is that. I think we're safe for a while yet...

<YOUTUBE id="wM1vOAz0_Gc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM1vOAz0_Gc</YOUTUBE>

boneAngo · by **boneAngo** » 2024-08-05 2:05 a.m.

buy all. Test them one by one until i find one i like most (also for mouthpiece), or simply hire the factory to custom one for me.

MrLong · by **MrLong** » 2024-08-05 11:30 p.m.

I have a 90s 88H (with a .562 slide) that I’ve had since freshman year in college. I love playing it and it’s my best sounding horn, but my valve technique isn’t great and as I get older, the horn gets heavier. I normally play a 2B or 3B to cut the weight if I’m teaching or playing casually, but my tone is better on the bigger horn, so I use that for orchestra/concert band.

My dream horn at the moment is an 8H (with a .547 slide). Something comparable in quality to my 88H. I like the idea of having both horns to play at being modular. Valve when I need it, big slide when I need it, lighter equipment when I don’t.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-08-06 3:34 a.m.

[quote="MrLong"]

My dream horn at the moment is an 8H (with a .547 slide). Something comparable in quality to my 88H. I like the idea of having both horns to play at being modular. Valve when I need it, big slide when I need it, lighter equipment when I don’t.[/quote]

Brass Exchange has one in good shape worth the money. It has no slide lock or barrel springs. It does have a Remington taper leadpipe. I have purchased several horns there including a 2B.

To the original topic, I have several horns that I really appreciate, including a 2B. I could sell off two or three that i am not using to purchase outright a Kuhnl & Hoyer 0.525 bore with a single traditionally sized valve, for the same reasons Jeff posted. No unlimited budget would be required.

NotSkilledHere · by **NotSkilledHere** » 2024-08-07 3:22 p.m.

There's too many horns i want and not enough money to get them all. and every time a new horn is acquired the next "dream horn" changes. For the moment, the next dream horn is a clean Elkhart era 88H. in terms of filling a hole: I'm missing a bass trombone, and for those I would say right now, I'm looking at Yamaha 835GD Xeno's.

of course the bigger problem is finding the perfect mp for each horn but that's always an ever-evolving monster of a task that nobody is really ever satisfied with.

JasonDonnelly · by **JasonDonnelly** » 2024-08-09 12:09 a.m.

If we're just putting things out into the universe, I'd love to own a Rudy Meinl bass trumpet and one of the Conn 62HCL sterling bell models. If either one of those came up on the market, I'd probably make some dumb financial decisions to try and justify them.

slideandtraps · by **slideandtraps** » 2024-08-10 11:33 a.m.

I'll bite. Dream trombone?

A Tommy Dorsey King 2B w/ silver Almont or Jack Jenney Martin Committee w/ Leeder Goblet.

Though happy for the lucky folks and museums that have those nice memories.

Down to mere mortal, and from oscillating between King 2B or Conn 4H next horn, have this dream in mind:

M&W custom "ballroom" tenor: 0.485" bore,

7 1/2" inch yellow one piece setback bell like Conn 24H ballroom, Joshua Wagner restored Ray Robinson Mel-o-Wah,

Matched yellow, rose (or red tbd) brass tuning shanks for post slide sonic options,

Nickle-silver reinforced neck like a Martin TR4501,

Nickle-silver fast slide, yellow brass crook,

Conn 4H repro & threaded copper, rose brass, yellow brass leadpipes for pre-slide sonic options.

(There is a post/rumor on this site TD may have used a Conn 4H leadpipe in his King 2B, info appreciated..)

Custom case to hold the kit w/ current Marcinkiewicz ET4.

timbone · by **timbone** » 2024-08-16 7:54 p.m.

I want Art Pearlman's Williams pigtale. I played it and left quite an impression. Not sure what happened to Art's horns!

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