Olds S-20?...
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Any thoughts on this horn?
I think I have the model number right. Flat wrap, TIS, funny trigger, 9” bell.
I think I have the model number right. Flat wrap, TIS, funny trigger, 9” bell.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I thought S-20 was the Super Star, which was basically an Ambassador with F (A-20) but with a little more bling. Tuning in bell (but no brace on the tuning slide). Not quite a Recording with F, but a step up from the Ambassador.
- DakoJack
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Apr 17, 2018
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Rc6cV2khuv">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.itsabear.com/Olds_Docs/Olds1970.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjgjP-U4YnjAhWXGs0KHUAYB7QQFjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw30VC2vrnsIrcRc6cV2khuv</LINK_TEXT>
Hopefully this will help the S-20 is in this catalog.
Hopefully this will help the S-20 is in this catalog.
- pfcastor
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Feb 26, 2019
The Olds S-20 Super was Olds early single rotor Bass Trombone. I own a 1964 edition of the horn. I purchased it used in 1971 while at the University. At that time I tried both a Holton and Conn Basses but didn’t like either one.
So I purchased the Olds from one of my professors.
I found it to very a responsive and versatile horn. I’ve played in in wide variety of organizations. It worked well in a Large Jazz enable and symphonic contort band.
It’s a Dual Bore horn: .554-.565 (rotor is .565) with a 9” bell. The bell material is Olds Re-0-Loy. It is closed wrap and has in the slide tuning.
By today’s standards some would consider it to be a small bass trombone or a very large Symphonic Tenor.
Don’t confuse the late 1970’s Olds Super Star V-20 line with the Olds Super S20. They are two different horns. The V-20 is basically a silver plated recycled Olds Ambassador Tenor. At times the Olds did call their A-20 Ambassador with F-rotor horn as a Student Bass Trombone.
I also own a Olds S-22 George Robert’s model and a Benge 165F Symphonic Tenor.
So I purchased the Olds from one of my professors.
I found it to very a responsive and versatile horn. I’ve played in in wide variety of organizations. It worked well in a Large Jazz enable and symphonic contort band.
It’s a Dual Bore horn: .554-.565 (rotor is .565) with a 9” bell. The bell material is Olds Re-0-Loy. It is closed wrap and has in the slide tuning.
By today’s standards some would consider it to be a small bass trombone or a very large Symphonic Tenor.
Don’t confuse the late 1970’s Olds Super Star V-20 line with the Olds Super S20. They are two different horns. The V-20 is basically a silver plated recycled Olds Ambassador Tenor. At times the Olds did call their A-20 Ambassador with F-rotor horn as a Student Bass Trombone.
I also own a Olds S-22 George Robert’s model and a Benge 165F Symphonic Tenor.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
You are probably right, the S20 is what you have. The horn Bruce talk about is R20.
- pfcastor
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Feb 26, 2019
Olds Superstar series
Superstar V20 .495/.510 8.5 F Silver-plated.
Superstar V25 .565 10 F Silver-plated.
Superstar V20 .495/.510 8.5 F Silver-plated.
Superstar V25 .565 10 F Silver-plated.
- pfcastor
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Feb 26, 2019
Olds Recording R20 8.5 Professional bass trombone with flat-wrap F attachment. Bore size smaller than would be considered "bass bore" today.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="greenbean"]Any thoughts on this horn?
I think I have the model number right. Flat wrap, TIS, funny trigger, 9” bell.[/quote]
Any idea what vintage?
It lies right on the cusp of being either a supersize tenor or a small bass. .554/.565" dual bore, normally with a 9" bell (10" was a special order option). Based on the few samples I've seen, the early ones are .585" through the attachment, but the later (far more common) version is .565".
Originally shipped with an Olds 20 mouthpiece (kinda 5G-ish). One of the old forum regulars made a pretty good argument that it had some German-style trombone DNA, and I'm inclined to agree.
I have one of the later ones; I use it a fair amount at Bones West, playing the fourth part in a six part (Tenor 1-4, Bass 5 & 6) choir. I've used it as a second trombone in a three-part section when the others go heavy, and as a third trombone when the others go light.
Notable issues? Well, it doesn't have an E pull, so you might want to work on your falset tone low B. The mouthpiece receiver is non-standard, so it can be hard to find something that works well (I use an Olds 21, which was standard on the GR models the inline doubles). The f-attachment linkage can be awkward for some. The slide is heavy and the horn doesn't balance that well. I personally don't find the pancake wrap and small valve to be a problem, but some might.
I think I have the model number right. Flat wrap, TIS, funny trigger, 9” bell.[/quote]
Any idea what vintage?
It lies right on the cusp of being either a supersize tenor or a small bass. .554/.565" dual bore, normally with a 9" bell (10" was a special order option). Based on the few samples I've seen, the early ones are .585" through the attachment, but the later (far more common) version is .565".
Originally shipped with an Olds 20 mouthpiece (kinda 5G-ish). One of the old forum regulars made a pretty good argument that it had some German-style trombone DNA, and I'm inclined to agree.
I have one of the later ones; I use it a fair amount at Bones West, playing the fourth part in a six part (Tenor 1-4, Bass 5 & 6) choir. I've used it as a second trombone in a three-part section when the others go heavy, and as a third trombone when the others go light.
Notable issues? Well, it doesn't have an E pull, so you might want to work on your falset tone low B. The mouthpiece receiver is non-standard, so it can be hard to find something that works well (I use an Olds 21, which was standard on the GR models the inline doubles). The f-attachment linkage can be awkward for some. The slide is heavy and the horn doesn't balance that well. I personally don't find the pancake wrap and small valve to be a problem, but some might.
- pfcastor
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Feb 26, 2019
JohnL,
have you have any experience with the Olds S-23 dual rotor Bass Trombone?
have you have any experience with the Olds S-23 dual rotor Bass Trombone?
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="pfcastor"]JohnL,
have you have any experience with the Olds S-23 dual rotor Bass Trombone?[/quote]
Do yourself a favor and look up Doug Yeo's article for ITA about the development of the double valve bass trombone. He makes a point of talking about that specific model and it's origins with LA studio playing. Fantastic read.
have you have any experience with the Olds S-23 dual rotor Bass Trombone?[/quote]
Do yourself a favor and look up Doug Yeo's article for ITA about the development of the double valve bass trombone. He makes a point of talking about that specific model and it's origins with LA studio playing. Fantastic read.
- JohntheTheologian
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
One of my section mates in the big band that I play in has an Old Shooting Star. He uses it to play 2nd part.
His horn has a much larger bell than the old Ambassador that I have- about 8 1/2- 9 inches if my eye is correct-- and I believe that the bore size was actually a bit bigger. I believe that it was dual bore, but something along the lines of a .500-508 or something like that, rather than the Amabassdor .485-500 dual bore.
I plays well for what he wants to do with it and blends with the other section members: King 3b on 1st and Shires medium bore on 3rd and me on bass.
His horn has a much larger bell than the old Ambassador that I have- about 8 1/2- 9 inches if my eye is correct-- and I believe that the bore size was actually a bit bigger. I believe that it was dual bore, but something along the lines of a .500-508 or something like that, rather than the Amabassdor .485-500 dual bore.
I plays well for what he wants to do with it and blends with the other section members: King 3b on 1st and Shires medium bore on 3rd and me on bass.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="pfcastor"]JohnL,
have you have any experience with the Olds S-23 dual rotor Bass Trombone?[/quote]
Never owned an actual S-23. I have three LA-era Olds doubles; they're similar to the S-23, but there are some key differences (each being different from the others as well as from the S-23). Much of what I've said about the S-20 should also apply to the S-23, though, as they share a lot of parts.
If someone was only going to have one bass trombone, I don't think an S-23 would be a good choice.
[quote="mrdeacon"]Do yourself a favor and look up Doug Yeo's article for ITA about the development of the double valve bass trombone. He makes a point of talking about that specific model and it's origins with LA studio playing. Fantastic read.[/quote]
You're talking about the article that published in 2015?
[quote="JohntheTheologian"]One of my section mates in the big band that I play in has an Old Shooting Star. He uses it to play 2nd part.[/quote]
Silver finish, flat wrap f-attachment, 8.5" bell, round braces? V-20 Super Star. They were introduced in the mid-1970's, along with a companion bass trombone (the V-25) which was basically a rebadged Reynolds TO-02.
have you have any experience with the Olds S-23 dual rotor Bass Trombone?[/quote]
Never owned an actual S-23. I have three LA-era Olds doubles; they're similar to the S-23, but there are some key differences (each being different from the others as well as from the S-23). Much of what I've said about the S-20 should also apply to the S-23, though, as they share a lot of parts.
If someone was only going to have one bass trombone, I don't think an S-23 would be a good choice.
[quote="mrdeacon"]Do yourself a favor and look up Doug Yeo's article for ITA about the development of the double valve bass trombone. He makes a point of talking about that specific model and it's origins with LA studio playing. Fantastic read.[/quote]
You're talking about the article that published in 2015?
[quote="JohntheTheologian"]One of my section mates in the big band that I play in has an Old Shooting Star. He uses it to play 2nd part.[/quote]
Silver finish, flat wrap f-attachment, 8.5" bell, round braces? V-20 Super Star. They were introduced in the mid-1970's, along with a companion bass trombone (the V-25) which was basically a rebadged Reynolds TO-02.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Thanks to you all for the great info!
John, I know it is a Fullerton horn. But I can't be more specific than that for now. I will have this horn in a few days. Comes with an Olds mouthpiece so hopefully it is large enough to be useful to me. I used to have an Olds 20 and an Olds G, but I am pretty sure I sold them off...
John, I know it is a Fullerton horn. But I can't be more specific than that for now. I will have this horn in a few days. Comes with an Olds mouthpiece so hopefully it is large enough to be useful to me. I used to have an Olds 20 and an Olds G, but I am pretty sure I sold them off...
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="DakoJack"]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Rc6cV2khuv">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.itsabear.com/Olds_Docs/Olds1970.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjgjP-U4YnjAhWXGs0KHUAYB7QQFjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw30VC2vrnsIrcRc6cV2khuv</LINK_TEXT>
Hopefully this will help the S-20 is in this catalog.[/quote]
Thanks - never seen this one. The horn in question is definitely the S-20 Super Bass Trombone. I am looking forward to the "silver ringed bell flare"!
Hopefully this will help the S-20 is in this catalog.[/quote]
Thanks - never seen this one. The horn in question is definitely the S-20 Super Bass Trombone. I am looking forward to the "silver ringed bell flare"!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="greenbean"]I am looking forward to the "silver ringed bell flare"![/quote]
Sorry, but that's an error in the copy; no tone ring on S-20's (you'll notice there isn't one in the pic).
Sorry, but that's an error in the copy; no tone ring on S-20's (you'll notice there isn't one in the pic).
- JohntheTheologian
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
JohnL, yes, you're correct about the silver plated, flat wrap. One of the websites I found says that it is a .495-.510 dual bore to go along with the larger 8.5 inch bell. As I said above, it blends well with the King 3b and Shires .525 and bass in our section.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I really like my S20. It's an under rated instrument. I replaced the valve and flat wrap with a Duo Gravis valve set. I used it on a recent orchestra concert where we played some pretty intense stuff like Holst Perfect Fool and John Williams E. T.
Some parts were more 3rd bone than bass, and some went to low B. It sounds very tromboney for lack of a better word. Even down low. I preferred a VB 1.25G, which still allows a eeasonable high range.
Its a very versatile instrument. With a mouthpiece change it can sound/feel like a tenor or do a convincing stand in for a bass bone.
Greenbean, I think I have your Olds G mouthpiece if you want it back. I don't use it.
Some parts were more 3rd bone than bass, and some went to low B. It sounds very tromboney for lack of a better word. Even down low. I preferred a VB 1.25G, which still allows a eeasonable high range.
Its a very versatile instrument. With a mouthpiece change it can sound/feel like a tenor or do a convincing stand in for a bass bone.
Greenbean, I think I have your Olds G mouthpiece if you want it back. I don't use it.
- johnnymack
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Mar 31, 2018
Cool Horns. Big full resonant sound in the mid and Low registers. Mine ( 1964 FUllerton )
becomes Unfocused/ Woofy in the upper register.
Has anyone replaced the leadpipe on their S-20 with something more modern?
My Conn Constellation 3B with Remington shank fit very well. I do not have any issues
using my Greg Black or other Morse tapered mouthpieces on it.
I use a Greg Black 1 1/2G med or a NY 2 Futuro Reg. weight on it and sometimes throw in a Stork 1 for a Full Bass Trombone sound.
becomes Unfocused/ Woofy in the upper register.
Has anyone replaced the leadpipe on their S-20 with something more modern?
My Conn Constellation 3B with Remington shank fit very well. I do not have any issues
using my Greg Black or other Morse tapered mouthpieces on it.
I use a Greg Black 1 1/2G med or a NY 2 Futuro Reg. weight on it and sometimes throw in a Stork 1 for a Full Bass Trombone sound.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Part of the mod I did was to put in a Bach 42 leadpipe. The upper range is nice with an appropriate mouthpiece.
- pfcastor
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Feb 26, 2019
[quote="JohntheTheologian"]One of my section mates in the big band that I play in has an Old Shooting Star. He uses it to play 2nd part.
His horn has a much larger bell than the old Ambassador that I have- about 8 1/2- 9 inches if my eye is correct-- and I believe that the bore size was actually a bit bigger. I believe that it was dual bore, but something along the lines of a .500-508 or something like that, rather than the Ambassador .485-500 dual bore.
I plays well for what he wants to do with it and blends with the other section members: King 3b on 1st and Shires medium bore on 3rd and me on bass.[/quote]
Olds had two versions of the Ambassador. The A-15 model has the .485-.500 dual bore and 7 1/2" bell. The A-20 model has is a .495 - 510 dual bore with an 8 1/2 bell with a F Rotor. The Super Star V-20 had the same specs but is silver plated
His horn has a much larger bell than the old Ambassador that I have- about 8 1/2- 9 inches if my eye is correct-- and I believe that the bore size was actually a bit bigger. I believe that it was dual bore, but something along the lines of a .500-508 or something like that, rather than the Ambassador .485-500 dual bore.
I plays well for what he wants to do with it and blends with the other section members: King 3b on 1st and Shires medium bore on 3rd and me on bass.[/quote]
Olds had two versions of the Ambassador. The A-15 model has the .485-.500 dual bore and 7 1/2" bell. The A-20 model has is a .495 - 510 dual bore with an 8 1/2 bell with a F Rotor. The Super Star V-20 had the same specs but is silver plated
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
For what it's worth, I am selling an Olds Super Star in the classifieds, should there be any interest. This thread has been super helpful in figuring out what it is!
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Just to follow up. The horn arrived. It is a very nice player! Sounds great and is very responsive and lively. Not at all mouthpiece-picky from what I can tell and, with a true bass trombone mpc, it sounds like a true bass! The horn is in GREAT shape except... the inners have lots of wear and pitting. Actually, not much wear - just some corrosion and plating failure, I guess you could call it. So, it is at the shop now. We will buff the inners and outers and see how it moves. Plan B could be to replate just the stockings. Plan C: Have new tubes drawn.
Here are some photos...
Here are some photos...
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
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- mwpfoot
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Reviving; my 8th grade kid’s “school horn” is a S-20 - which is kind of wild considering I’m the biggest Olds goofball I know - and tonight’s inspection revealed the large shank mp I gave him to play it sits a little far out … borderline flat all the way in … he didn’t quite grasp the TIS mechanism bc he never had a reason to use it … my no-name large shank was better than the tuba mp it came with, at least :roll:
Anyways, what should look for to be JUST RIGHT? Relatively small by modern standards is fine; it’s middle school kids. Does it have to be Olds, or would a Remington shank fit right? I will buy it and leave it in the case for future generations to complain about, whatever it is.
:idk:
Anyways, what should look for to be JUST RIGHT? Relatively small by modern standards is fine; it’s middle school kids. Does it have to be Olds, or would a Remington shank fit right? I will buy it and leave it in the case for future generations to complain about, whatever it is.
:idk:
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Remington would be even worse than a standard shank.
The standard mouthpiece on those was the Olds 20; quite small for a bass trombone (5G-ish). I use an Olds 21 in mine; it's kinda between a 2G and a 1½G.
There's actually two different sizes of Olds large shank receiver; how far in does the standard shank mouthpiece go? Also - does it have the same style of valve as the one Tom posted in this thread?
The standard mouthpiece on those was the Olds 20; quite small for a bass trombone (5G-ish). I use an Olds 21 in mine; it's kinda between a 2G and a 1½G.
There's actually two different sizes of Olds large shank receiver; how far in does the standard shank mouthpiece go? Also - does it have the same style of valve as the one Tom posted in this thread?
- mwpfoot
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Thanks, John. I think a 5G-ish size would be perfect.
This no-name mouthpiece goes in 3/4" - the other ring on the shank suggests it sits 1-1/4" in a standard large bore receiver.
The valve is similar to the one pictured above, but different. The trigger mechanism has a straight bar that is parallel-ish to the neck, which then curves up and over the valve in a similar way. There is a whole valve hub (?) that rotates with the trigger, not just a center axle. And the screws are less robust/pretty - no word "Oil".
Serial on slide and valve is 4529##.
This no-name mouthpiece goes in 3/4" - the other ring on the shank suggests it sits 1-1/4" in a standard large bore receiver.
The valve is similar to the one pictured above, but different. The trigger mechanism has a straight bar that is parallel-ish to the neck, which then curves up and over the valve in a similar way. There is a whole valve hub (?) that rotates with the trigger, not just a center axle. And the screws are less robust/pretty - no word "Oil".
Serial on slide and valve is 4529##.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Probably the older, smaller Olds "large shank".
Best option? Doug Elliott. He can make a shank that fits the receiver. When your son moves on to a different horn, you can get a standard size shank from Doug and continue to use the same rim and cup.
Other options would be turning down the shank on a standard mouthpiece or trying to find an Olds mouthpiece with the correct shank (not necessarily easy).
If you're into DIY, you might try a Kelly lexan bass trombone 'piece and some sandpaper.
Best option? Doug Elliott. He can make a shank that fits the receiver. When your son moves on to a different horn, you can get a standard size shank from Doug and continue to use the same rim and cup.
Other options would be turning down the shank on a standard mouthpiece or trying to find an Olds mouthpiece with the correct shank (not necessarily easy).
If you're into DIY, you might try a Kelly lexan bass trombone 'piece and some sandpaper.