Thayer french horn

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-07-08 3:46 p.m.

I heard that the thayer valve was originally designed for french horn. Does anyone know if any existing examples?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-07-08 3:51 p.m.

Never seen one. Given the size of a Thayer it would be a real challenge to fit one (actually 3 or 4) into a French Horn wrap.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-07-08 3:56 p.m.

Well that's probably why ut didn't work and anyway they don't really need them.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2019-07-08 3:59 p.m.

It would work reasonably well, I think. You would need to design a new wrap, and instead of two passages, there would be four for each valve- creating a triple horn would be difficult.

Designing a horn around axial-flow valves would be complicated by the need for disassembly of the valves for routine maintenance. Also, routing linkages for a thayer-type valve with four ports would be difficult. Perhaps they were only intended as change valves, with the main valve block remaining as rotaries?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-07-08 4:04 p.m.

I actualy learnt this from a aiden ritchie video. maybe he can elaborate.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-07-08 4:13 p.m.

I read it on a dissertation about the history of the Thayer. Not sure exactly that was.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-07-08 4:14 p.m.

I think that may be from the patent application.

Note that at one time the change valve on the French Horn was a piston, so exotic valves have been used for that at other times as well.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2019-07-08 4:57 p.m.

I could definitely see a Thayer or Hagmann change valve working. Some change valves (Alexanders for example) are already gigantic so it doesn't seem too far-fetched. I'd be very interested in trying a horn set up like that, as uniformity between the F and Bb sides is something all horn players strive for.

As for the main 3 valves however, I don't think you can do better than Viennese pumpenvalves.

Slidemo · by **Slidemo** » 2019-07-08 5:26 p.m.

I heard a legend that a Thayer valve Euphonium was made once and it sounded and played like crap!

For an instrument like Horn or Eupho there are just much better choices than big open Trombone valves, they really just don't need that feature especially as they are conical.

my 2c

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2019-07-08 6:21 p.m.

I was privileged to be a guest of Ed and Barb Thayer back in 1999 after I had attended Red Wing. Iver the week that I stayed with them Ed and I chatted about a lot of things, including the idea of Thayer valves in French Horns.

Mr Thayer was a horn player himself, and had an idea for a valve that would "open up" a horn. He had intended for the player to have their right hand outside the bell to adjust a tuning slide for intonation correction. I told it wouldn't fly because the hand in the bell was an integral part of the "horn sound". At the time I visited, he was not legally allowed to make his own invention, due issues with his previous business partner. He still planned on getting back into the game and creating a french horn, but that never came to be.

The Thayer Eupho was also shown to me. It wasn't playable, but looked intriguing.

I also saw all of the prototypes, including "Betsy", the very first Proof of Concept made from a coffee can. I was also treated to some EXCELLENT fresh crab, that Mr Thayer prepared using methods similar to those of the American Indians native to the area.

M

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2019-07-08 9:54 p.m.

There was a period during the 1990s that the TVI ads in the ITA Journal had a little blurb at the bottom that said "coming soon - a 4-valve euphonium".

Those aluminum core valves needed so much maintenance that I'm sure the whole instrument would have needed to come apart, I can't imagine what a mess that would have been. And you wouldn't have been able to make it compensating - unless only the 4th valve was a thayer? Hornbuilder -- just for curiosity's sake I'd love to hear more about how it was designed.

It really is a shame about how he was treated by those former business partners. I met him and bought a valve from him about that time and he was extremely kind.

u_8parktoollover · 2019-07-09 1:06 a.m.

I read an article that someone wrote about how he was completely redesigning the trumpet.I just skimmed tge article because it was really long and went into some very technical deatails but it did menntion a use of some sort of variation of the thayer.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-07-09 1:20 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]I read an article that someone wrote about how he was completely redesigning tge trumpet.I just skimmed tge article because it was reqlly long and went into some very technical deatails but it did menntion a use of sone sort of variation in the thayer.[/quote]

Good luck with that! :lol:

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-07-09 2:48 a.m.

http://www.benoitglazer.com/trumpet-ideas.html

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-07-09 4:21 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]http://www.benoitglazer.com/trumpet-ideas.html[/quote]

Good read. Im taking a similar aproach to valve design on double valved trombones, where i think considerable improvements can be made by use of modern machining capabilities.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-07-09 12:02 p.m.

Is there a Thayer Valve museum somewhere? I'd love to see pictures at least of all these interesting developments that led to the legendary valve.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-07-09 4:10 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]I could definitely see a Thayer or Hagmann change valve working. Some change valves (Alexanders for example) are already gigantic so it doesn't seem too far-fetched.[/quote]
The Alex change valve is large, but that's to accommodate six ports in a single plane valve.

As for new approaches to valve fabrication, I think ~~[url=https://www.engelbert-schmid-horns.com/index.php/en/]~~Engelbert Schmid uses a monoblock valve cluster, though he uses a fairly traditional wrap.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2019-07-09 5:32 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="89137" time="1562619458" user_id="136">
I could definitely see a Thayer or Hagmann change valve working. Some change valves (Alexanders for example) are already gigantic so it doesn't seem too far-fetched.[/quote]
The Alex change valve is large, but that's to accommodate six ports in a single plane valve.
</QUOTE>

Yep, I meant moreso that there's definitely space for a valve as large as a Thayer or Hagmann in a horn as its change valve.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-07-10 12:10 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="89262" time="1562703040" user_id="119">

The Alex change valve is large, but that's to accommodate six ports in a single plane valve.[/quote]

Yep, I meant moreso that there's definitely space for a valve as large as a Thayer or Hagmann in a horn as its change valve.
</QUOTE>

True but most horns have change valves that are the same size or smaller than the main valves

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-07-10 2:50 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]http://www.benoitglazer.com/trumpet-ideas.html[/quote]

As far as I can tell, this trumpet concept incorporates valves which in no way resemble axial-flow Thayer valves. Any discussion of this sort of thing should probably be moves to a new thread.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2019-07-10 3:01 a.m.

At bottomm there is a mention if thayer valves.

MoominDave · by **MoominDave** » 2019-07-10 10:29 a.m.

[quote="bbocaner"]And you wouldn't have been able to make it compensating - unless only the 4th valve was a thayer?[/quote]

I don't see why not, in principle - make it a bigger cone and then you can have two tubes run into the narrow end. Would make for pretty large valves though, and the number of tight tubing loops might negate the whole point of Thayerising.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2019-07-10 8:35 p.m.

I don't see how that would work, the whole idea of the valve is that the whole valve rotates around the axis of the input tubing - aka axial. That doesn't work with more than one tube coming in the center of the cone. I suppose you might be able to work out how to have a second valve off on the side of the cone, but it'd be some pretty intricate passages through the core to make that work and you lose one of the main advantages of thayer valves, which is that the input port is always engaged to the input tubing. I think it might work better to gang two valves together through a single linkage. But then I think there are also better ways to do it (like MAW pistons)

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2019-07-10 9:08 p.m.

Folks, there’s a picture in the dang patent... the second path for compensation enters parallel to the axis of rotation, but not at the center like the first path.

~~[url]~~https://patents.google.com/patent/US4469002A/en

Cheers,

Andy

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2019-07-10 10:01 p.m.

Oh, interesting. Thanks for that. Might be difficult to get the 2nd valve compensating loop short enough.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-07-12 8:36 a.m.

Thats really interesting. So now i have to ask, has anyone used a thayer as pictured?

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Thayer french horn