Medieval military trombonist.
- u_8parktoollover
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Jul 06, 2018
Many of us have probably seen this drawing. I'm interested in it's history and backstory. And most importantly- what kind of trombone this is. It couldn't be a sackbutt because it has a trombone flare. Iv'e also never heard of a trombone with that kind of loop on the slide. The closest thing I know about is the loop on the bell section of a bass sackbutt. Also the way he's holding with the slide parallel to the bell suggests that the artist doesn't really know what a trombone looks like and that he is probably a non musician.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="8parktoollover"]...the way he's holding with the slide parallel to the bell suggests that the artist doesn't really know what a trombone looks like and that he is probably a non musician.[/quote] Highly likely.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The musician is not from the Medieval period. The trombone was invented around 1450 -- too late for Medieval.
From the clothing I would suspect late 16th Century to early 17th Century.
TTF had a thread of early trombone graphics. Don't know if Matt managed to save it.
From the clothing I would suspect late 16th Century to early 17th Century.
TTF had a thread of early trombone graphics. Don't know if Matt managed to save it.
- Mikebmiller
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- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
That’s the latest Shires valve design.
- LeTromboniste
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- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Lots and lots of old pictures of trumpets and trombones have flares that make them look 200 years later than they actually are. Artists exaggerated defining features of objects to make it obvious what they are picturing, so we always have to be careful about how we interpret bell flares in depictions.
Also there are probably as many depicted ways to hold a trombone as there are depictions of trombones, so don't lose to much sleep on the grip either.
This is a trombone with crooks in (they appear to be between the slide and bell, not on the slide, by the way, they are just very oddly drawn). Very similar in fact to the 1636 depiction of a trombone with crooks in Mersenne (see below). There is a number of surviving instruments that are tenors in A but which can be crooked down to be used as basses, and conversely basses in D than can be de-crooked to be used as tenors or small basses. Old sackbuts are very flexible in their configuration (in fact almost nothing is soldered).
I too would think it's from the 17th century based on the clothing, general style and the resemblance of the instrument to Mersenne's example (the artist might have very well based their design on Mersenne, as it was a widely circulated encyclopedia). Of course it's an educated guess at best.
Also there are probably as many depicted ways to hold a trombone as there are depictions of trombones, so don't lose to much sleep on the grip either.
This is a trombone with crooks in (they appear to be between the slide and bell, not on the slide, by the way, they are just very oddly drawn). Very similar in fact to the 1636 depiction of a trombone with crooks in Mersenne (see below). There is a number of surviving instruments that are tenors in A but which can be crooked down to be used as basses, and conversely basses in D than can be de-crooked to be used as tenors or small basses. Old sackbuts are very flexible in their configuration (in fact almost nothing is soldered).
I too would think it's from the 17th century based on the clothing, general style and the resemblance of the instrument to Mersenne's example (the artist might have very well based their design on Mersenne, as it was a widely circulated encyclopedia). Of course it's an educated guess at best.
- HowardW
- Posts: 76
- Joined: May 11, 2018
It is important to remember that images of trombones (or of anything for that matter) from before the mid-19th century are not photographs. This means that in viewing them, you have to take into account a certain amount of artistic license. In this case, the artist, Arnold van Westerhout, intentionally gave this image of a "tromba spezzata" an ancient Roman look. This is from a whole series of engravings showing various instruments that appeared in Filippo Bonanni's Gabinetto armonico pieno d'instrumenti sonori (Rome, 1722/23). The engravings in Bonanni's book were later copied by another engraver for Jean-Benjamin de La Borde's Essai sur la musique ancienne et moderne (Paris, 1780); there your "medieval trombonist" appears among the "Trompettes Antiques."
Howard
Howard
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.
- Walleye
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.[/quote]
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
- timothy42b
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- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Walleye"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="90953" time="1564740483" user_id="211">
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.[/quote]
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
</QUOTE>
If this was from 1822 I could maybe buy that. But in 1722? Highly unlikely.
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.[/quote]
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
</QUOTE>
If this was from 1822 I could maybe buy that. But in 1722? Highly unlikely.
- Walleye
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Walleye" post_id="90969" time="1564760280" user_id="105">
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..[/quote]
If this was from 1822 I could maybe buy that. But in 1722? Highly unlikely.
</QUOTE>I am certainly no expert on "armed" musicians and I'm not sure what part of the comment you couldn't buy, but the first American Military Band was formed in 1756. Their dress included a sword.. The old testament chronciles several examples of instruments and choirs in battle. Hard to imagine leading an army without any means of protection... Lastly, just because someone is wearing a sword in 1722 doesn't necessarily indicate military service. I believe, and again I'm not an expert, that swords were worn for ceremonial dress, and personal protection, as well as them being stylish for the time..
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..[/quote]
If this was from 1822 I could maybe buy that. But in 1722? Highly unlikely.
</QUOTE>I am certainly no expert on "armed" musicians and I'm not sure what part of the comment you couldn't buy, but the first American Military Band was formed in 1756. Their dress included a sword.. The old testament chronciles several examples of instruments and choirs in battle. Hard to imagine leading an army without any means of protection... Lastly, just because someone is wearing a sword in 1722 doesn't necessarily indicate military service. I believe, and again I'm not an expert, that swords were worn for ceremonial dress, and personal protection, as well as them being stylish for the time..
- BGuttman
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- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Walleye"]Lastly, just because someone is wearing a sword in 1722 doesn't necessarily indicate military service. I believe, and again I'm not an expert, that swords were worn for ceremonial dress, and personal protection, as well as them being stylish for the time..[/quote]
Yes, that's my point. This does not appear to be a soldier, who might have been issued a sword. As a musician he would not have been rich enough to buy a sword for ceremonial dress, or if he ever did would certainly have had to pawn it somewhere along the line.
Yes, that's my point. This does not appear to be a soldier, who might have been issued a sword. As a musician he would not have been rich enough to buy a sword for ceremonial dress, or if he ever did would certainly have had to pawn it somewhere along the line.
- BGuttman
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- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Schlitz"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="91038" time="1564835394" user_id="53">
My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:[/quote]
Musician wearing a sword? Supervisory position over a Db Piccolo player.......
</QUOTE>
At that time it would have been a garklein flotlein (sopranino recorder) and much shriller than any piccolo. They are actually good people repellents.
My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:[/quote]
Musician wearing a sword? Supervisory position over a Db Piccolo player.......
</QUOTE>
At that time it would have been a garklein flotlein (sopranino recorder) and much shriller than any piccolo. They are actually good people repellents.
- Geordie
- Posts: 349
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:[/quote]
Yes, I’ve done gigs like that too ...
Yes, I’ve done gigs like that too ...
- Jimprindle
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Apr 16, 2018
[quote="Walleye"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="90953" time="1564740483" user_id="211">
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.[/quote]
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
</QUOTE>
When I was in an Army band during the Vietnam War, I stayed stateside the entire time. But band personnel returning from VN had stories of being put on guard duty with weapons in their off-time, sometimes involved with active shooting, fragging, bombing, warlike stuff. Some of those guys definitely had PTSD (although they did not call it that back then) from what they saw and experienced. Musicians are not safe in a war zone. It would be best to have a weapon just in case.
Loud pedal tones might not be enough :| :mrgreen:
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.[/quote]
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
</QUOTE>
When I was in an Army band during the Vietnam War, I stayed stateside the entire time. But band personnel returning from VN had stories of being put on guard duty with weapons in their off-time, sometimes involved with active shooting, fragging, bombing, warlike stuff. Some of those guys definitely had PTSD (although they did not call it that back then) from what they saw and experienced. Musicians are not safe in a war zone. It would be best to have a weapon just in case.
Loud pedal tones might not be enough :| :mrgreen:
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
In reference to Bruce's observation about the "Garklein" of the recorder family : The sopranino recorder is actually larger than the "Garklein" and actually sounds sweet in comparison. The "Garklein" will even send D Flat piccolo players running with their hands tightly clasped over their ears ! Neither will lull an infant into a blissful sleep.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="2bobone"]In reference to Bruce's observation about the "Garklein" of the recorder family : The sopranino recorder is actually larger than the "Garklein" and actually sounds sweet in comparison. The "Garklein" will even send D Flat piccolo players running with their hands tightly clasped over their ears ! Neither will lull an infant into a blissful sleep.[/quote]
My garklein is the only one of my recorders I haven't played in public. I wish it had more notes though, the range is much less than my others. I have garklein through tenor, never tried the bass.
My garklein is the only one of my recorders I haven't played in public. I wish it had more notes though, the range is much less than my others. I have garklein through tenor, never tried the bass.
- HowardW
- Posts: 76
- Joined: May 11, 2018
[quote="Splendour"]Armed trombonists / sacqueboutiers are nothing new:[/quote]
Sorry, but the trombonist is not armed.
The thing you see hanging down along his left leg is the trombone case -- actually a leather cone into which the bell section can be inserted; not visible are two leather tubes in which the slide tubes were stowed. (Trombones at that time were not soldered together, but had friction joints that could be easily separated.) Notice also that the swords worn by the other riders have very distinct hilts, something the trombone case doesn't have.
Howard
Sorry, but the trombonist is not armed.
The thing you see hanging down along his left leg is the trombone case -- actually a leather cone into which the bell section can be inserted; not visible are two leather tubes in which the slide tubes were stowed. (Trombones at that time were not soldered together, but had friction joints that could be easily separated.) Notice also that the swords worn by the other riders have very distinct hilts, something the trombone case doesn't have.
Howard
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I also like how the horse on the right does not appear to appreciate the sounds from the "band".
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
make weapons to trombones :good:
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
Bringing things up to date.
<YOUTUBE id="oK1EAAp7pok" t="28">https://youtu.be/oK1EAAp7pok?t=28</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="oK1EAAp7pok" t="28">https://youtu.be/oK1EAAp7pok?t=28</YOUTUBE>
- u_8parktoollover
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Jul 06, 2018
I would assume that it is quite difficult to play horseback
- lapsed88pro
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Aug 12, 2022
It is but they get lots of training, not funny if the horse gets skittish! Nowadays, musicians are not armed (like doctors) due to Geneva Convention but may get personal protection weapons (and training) if warranted. Military playing is a great experience (if not hot in the uniform). Back on track - no swords as far as I remember so probably a promo shoot with a 'borrowed' sword?
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="8parktoollover"]It couldn't be a sackbutt because it has a trombone flare.[/quote]
The distinction is mostly a modern contrivance.
You should give[url=https://kimballtrombone.com/trombone-history-timeline/]Will Kimball's trombone history timeline a look. That has a myriad of doubtfully-formed trombones for which the demarcation between inadequate artistic skill and genuinely odd instruments will forever remain a speculation.
The distinction is mostly a modern contrivance.
Iv'e also never heard of a trombone with that kind of loop on the slide. The closest thing I know about is the loop on the bell section of a bass sackbutt. Also the way he's holding with the slide parallel to the bell suggests that the artist doesn't really know what a trombone looks like and that he is probably a non musician.
You should give