Bruckner - Sergiu Celibidache, Münchner Philharmoniker
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
I have been listening a lot to this conductor today. And that wonderful orchestra. Never heard much about them but it sounds great. Muncher Philharmoniker.
Anybody knows more about both the conductor and the orchestra? Interesting they blend the regular trumpet with the flat one. And what a great horn section?
The choral in the end of the 5th symphony start with a high F in the bass trombone....goes to Bb and then chromatic down to the low Bb. Amazing... :good:
Anyway it sounds amazing, listen all links to end. Its amazing :good: :good: :good:
Leif
(should be a section here just called music?)
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I'm sure lots of nice things can be said about his musical ideas and interpretations. We can also say he was an egomaniacal and tyrannical leader, and one with a particular history of despicable sexism. He's the one who, when Abbie Conant won the principal trombone job, insisted that a woman could not be a professional trombonist, and certainly not a principal, and certainly shouldn't get paid as much as a man...
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]I'm sure lots of nice things can be said about his musical ideas and interpretations. We can also say he was an egomaniacal and tyrannical leader, and one with a particular history of despicable sexism. He's the one who, when Abby Conant won the principal trombone job, insisted that a woman could not be a professional trombonist, and certainly not a principal, and certainly shouldn't get paid as much as a man...[/quote]
I didn't know that. So many great leaders get it wrong inside their head and do so much wrong things? No excuse for that. Then I listen it different.....
I didn't know that. So many great leaders get it wrong inside their head and do so much wrong things? No excuse for that. Then I listen it different.....
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One's artistry and one's personality don't necessarily affect one another. Some of the greatest artists were jerks and egotists. Some of the nicest people couldn't draw a straight line using a ruler.
If you like the sound he gets, enjoy that. Be thankful you don't have to play for him.
If you like the sound he gets, enjoy that. Be thankful you don't have to play for him.
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
The saga is recounted here: http://www.osborne-conant.org/ladies.htm
If that orchestra sounds like "a ladies orchestra," then any orchestra should be so lucky...
Personally I think Celibidache was mostly insecure about his bass-like countenance.
If that orchestra sounds like "a ladies orchestra," then any orchestra should be so lucky...
Personally I think Celibidache was mostly insecure about his bass-like countenance.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
“We can also say he was an egomaniacal and tyrannical leader, and one with a particular history of despicable sexism.”
He speaks highly of you.
He speaks highly of you.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]One's artistry and one's personality don't necessarily affect one another. Some of the greatest artists were jerks and egotists. Some of the nicest people couldn't draw a straight line using a ruler.
If you like the sound he gets, enjoy that. Be thankful you don't have to play for him.[/quote]
This is an entirely reasonable way to think of course.
I tend to think that artistic expression IS the expression of the artists personality and that it can't be completely disassociated from it, and I personally find it difficult in particular with abusive conductors when the sound we hear is produced by the very victims of their abuse.
If you like the sound he gets, enjoy that. Be thankful you don't have to play for him.[/quote]
This is an entirely reasonable way to think of course.
I tend to think that artistic expression IS the expression of the artists personality and that it can't be completely disassociated from it, and I personally find it difficult in particular with abusive conductors when the sound we hear is produced by the very victims of their abuse.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]“We can also say he was an egomaniacal and tyrannical leader, and one with a particular history of despicable sexism.”
He speaks highly of you.[/quote]
How edifying...
He speaks highly of you.[/quote]
How edifying...
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
Sergiu Celibidache was the head counductor with the Swedish Radio Orchestra 1963 - 1971, he made wonder with the orchestra, I was lucky enough to sub with the orchestra many times, I have enormus respect for Sergiu, he did a fantastic job.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
So we only listen to Celibidache pre the Conant spat ? How about Fritz Reiner and Chicago.... he was a nasty man.... we had better dump Wagner totally... he was dreadful.... there have been a lot of deeply unpleasant people in the performing arts... how on earth do we know where to draw the line ? Or should we draw it at all ?
Chris
Chris
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]So we only listen to Celibidache pre the Conant spat ? How about Fritz Reiner and Chicago.... he was a nasty man.... we had better dump Wagner totally... he was dreadful.... there have been a lot of deeply unpleasant people in the performing arts... how on earth do we know where to draw the line ? Or should we draw it at all ?
Chris[/quote]
I think we each draw lines for ourselves, and that's okay. I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to Celibidache recordings by the way. It's not morally wrong to listen to Celibidache or to enjoy listening to or performing Wagner, or Gesualdo who murdered his wife and her lover, or Rosenmuller who wrote some of the best trombone music ever but was also accused of being a bit too close to some of the young men and/or boys he was teaching to...I'm not suggesting we burn them off from history, but I think knowing about the more troubling elements of great artists' lives or personality has the power to affect our perception and understanding of their work, and perhaps even more so with conductors who were abusive or tyrannical with the orchestra members because of the more direct relationship between the abuse and the music we hear.
Chris[/quote]
I think we each draw lines for ourselves, and that's okay. I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to Celibidache recordings by the way. It's not morally wrong to listen to Celibidache or to enjoy listening to or performing Wagner, or Gesualdo who murdered his wife and her lover, or Rosenmuller who wrote some of the best trombone music ever but was also accused of being a bit too close to some of the young men and/or boys he was teaching to...I'm not suggesting we burn them off from history, but I think knowing about the more troubling elements of great artists' lives or personality has the power to affect our perception and understanding of their work, and perhaps even more so with conductors who were abusive or tyrannical with the orchestra members because of the more direct relationship between the abuse and the music we hear.
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]
I think we each draw lines for ourselves, and that's okay.
[/quote]
Yup. Couldn't have said it better myself. Of course, there is a difference between patronizing/listening/paying for their products, and actually being there.
Something that stood out to me when I read through Abbie Conant's recounting of these events was that in one case, she was put on the spot and ordered to play assistant on a concert she was not scheduled to play (an attempt to elicit a bad performance, no doubt). Eric Terwilliger, solo horn and prior victim of a careless dentist, casually stood up for Mrs. Conant- simply saying "you shouldn't do it, none of us have to."
It's unfortunate that many of us will encounter situations similar to that which faced Mrs. Conant. We could find ourselves as the objects of unfair or harassing behavior, but it's more likely that we will observe it happening. In these cases it's our choice to stand up for our abused colleagues, or to remain silent. Mrs. Conant undoubtedly had the support of many of her colleagues in the Philharmonic through her years of abuse, and they share the joy of her ultimate victory over that injustice.
I still listen to James Levine recordings. I am partial to Celibidache's recordings of Bruckner. I enjoy Rostropovich's Cello Suites. I hope, though, that if I had been in a position to stand up to any of them, in any way, that I would have done it- even at the cost of fading into obscurity, just like the people who undoubtedly stood up to them and others like them, have.
I think we each draw lines for ourselves, and that's okay.
[/quote]
Yup. Couldn't have said it better myself. Of course, there is a difference between patronizing/listening/paying for their products, and actually being there.
Something that stood out to me when I read through Abbie Conant's recounting of these events was that in one case, she was put on the spot and ordered to play assistant on a concert she was not scheduled to play (an attempt to elicit a bad performance, no doubt). Eric Terwilliger, solo horn and prior victim of a careless dentist, casually stood up for Mrs. Conant- simply saying "you shouldn't do it, none of us have to."
It's unfortunate that many of us will encounter situations similar to that which faced Mrs. Conant. We could find ourselves as the objects of unfair or harassing behavior, but it's more likely that we will observe it happening. In these cases it's our choice to stand up for our abused colleagues, or to remain silent. Mrs. Conant undoubtedly had the support of many of her colleagues in the Philharmonic through her years of abuse, and they share the joy of her ultimate victory over that injustice.
I still listen to James Levine recordings. I am partial to Celibidache's recordings of Bruckner. I enjoy Rostropovich's Cello Suites. I hope, though, that if I had been in a position to stand up to any of them, in any way, that I would have done it- even at the cost of fading into obscurity, just like the people who undoubtedly stood up to them and others like them, have.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Von Karajan/B Philharmoniker? A Nazi conducting Wagner. One might overlook a bit of sexism.
- MoominDave
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
We listen to the music and we note the evil.
Seems to me this thread has got the balance exactly right.
Seems to me this thread has got the balance exactly right.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
The joke is that there are white male musicians who are treated far worse but do not get support because they are part of the advantaged sector.
Chris
Chris
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
From what I've heard, Toscanini was an equal opportunity abuser -- he insulted/bullied/cowed ALL of his musicians. But he got some amazing performances out of them. I personally would hate to try to play for such a conductor.
- GBP
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
In the USA, many black bands were simply not paid after the gig. Basie had a promoter pull a gun on him. Black bands could not sleep in hotels uptown. Even now, there is a belief that black musicians lack the sophistication to play classical music. Music is made by people and people have issues.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Heh. Checking out the first video, and I'm amused how the conductor basically stops conducting and I would have stopped playing there because it looks like he actually gives a cutoff. Apparently, the orchestra was used to those signals and knew to keep going. And at 5:12 there's a pretty funny "thank you for coming in" cue a couple of seconds after the cellos begin their line. :idk:
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Checking out the second video - geez, maybe it's my relative lack of symphonic orchestra experience or just that I've played for conductors with vastly different styles, but I'd find that conductor extremely hard to follow. Just the way he sometimes stops his motion before a downbeat instead of maintaining some kind of deceleration/acceleration in his motions - that just looks stressful. :?
And - yeah, that orchestra is fantastic. :good:
And - yeah, that orchestra is fantastic. :good:
- GBP
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]Checking out the second video - geez, maybe it's my relative lack of symphonic orchestra experience or just that I've played for conductors with vastly different styles, but I'd find that conductor extremely hard to follow. Just the way he sometimes stops his motion before a downbeat instead of maintaining some kind of deceleration/acceleration in his motions - that just looks stressful. :?
And - yeah, that orchestra is fantastic. :good:[/quote]
The running joke in most orchestras is don’t watch the conductor. <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>
And - yeah, that orchestra is fantastic. :good:[/quote]
The running joke in most orchestras is don’t watch the conductor. <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="GBP"]The running joke in most orchestras is don’t watch the conductor. <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>[/quote]
I know. Maybe I've been lucky and have played for conductors who are in general very competent and easy to follow. :cool:
With a conductor like Celibidache, I'd probably do a whole of paying attention to the principal violin or whoever else actually has control of tempos and rubatos, depending on the music. Well, I'd do that anyway - but usually conductors are more clear about showing predictions farther ahead in time, so there are times when I definitely would want to watch them. Not so sure about this guy.
I know. Maybe I've been lucky and have played for conductors who are in general very competent and easy to follow. :cool:
With a conductor like Celibidache, I'd probably do a whole of paying attention to the principal violin or whoever else actually has control of tempos and rubatos, depending on the music. Well, I'd do that anyway - but usually conductors are more clear about showing predictions farther ahead in time, so there are times when I definitely would want to watch them. Not so sure about this guy.
- GBP
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="GBP" post_id="92931" time="1567262268" user_id="3368">
The running joke in most orchestras is don’t watch the conductor. <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>[/quote]
I know. Maybe I've been lucky and have played for conductors who are in general very competent and easy to follow. :cool:
With a conductor like Celibidache, I'd probably do a whole of paying attention to the principal violin or whoever else actually has control of tempos and rubatos, depending on the music. Well, I'd do that anyway - but usually conductors are more clear about showing predictions farther ahead in time, so there are times when I definitely would want to watch them. Not so sure about this guy.
</QUOTE>
For me, one big difference has been score study. Prior to playing in orchestras, I didn’t do score study. Score study makes the ensemble seem smaller to me. I feel like I don’t need as much help from the guy on the podium.
The running joke in most orchestras is don’t watch the conductor. <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>[/quote]
I know. Maybe I've been lucky and have played for conductors who are in general very competent and easy to follow. :cool:
With a conductor like Celibidache, I'd probably do a whole of paying attention to the principal violin or whoever else actually has control of tempos and rubatos, depending on the music. Well, I'd do that anyway - but usually conductors are more clear about showing predictions farther ahead in time, so there are times when I definitely would want to watch them. Not so sure about this guy.
</QUOTE>
For me, one big difference has been score study. Prior to playing in orchestras, I didn’t do score study. Score study makes the ensemble seem smaller to me. I feel like I don’t need as much help from the guy on the podium.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
It’s so much easier now, it seems. You can go on YouTube and watch a performance and follow along in your part. You can compare performances. You can play along. You can download the music and slow it down. There’s so much more you can do now then when I was a young pup back in the day.