WTB: Good Alto with Flexible Trigger Design

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2019-09-05 1:07 a.m.

Hey there, Hi there, Ho there!

Just what it says on the tin. I'm looking for a good alto with a flexible trigger design. Probably will just leave it however it's tuned, but might make it a Bb, a trill, or a C trigger. Ideally, it would be some design where I could use crooks to change the tuning. I think Yamaha makes one like that.

I don't want to break the bank, since this could end up a project horn.

Thank you!

Jomaits · by **Jomaits** » 2019-09-06 10:51 p.m.

My shop can make you one of those for $1750. Entirely custom and handmade. Also awesome. Email me at joshomaits at gmail dot com if that’s of interest to you.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2019-09-11 11:11 a.m.

Just got hold of one. Thank you!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-09-13 11:26 p.m.

The yamaha one was a prototype. Great idea, but I think Ian Bousfield still has it. Rath might also make one like this.

What did you end up getting?

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2019-09-15 11:34 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]The yamaha one was a prototype. Great idea, but I think Ian Bousfield still has it. Rath might also make one like this.

What did you end up getting?[/quote]

Hey! Which Yamaha are you referring to?

I have a Conn 36H on the way. Not exactly what I was after but I'm curious to see what it's all about.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-09-16 9:21 a.m.

You will find the 36H isn't quite as versatile as you want.

It has the old style Conn wrap which means you will need major surgery to change it from Bb to C. You also will need major surgery to make it into a trill valve (not that I've seen much use for one). Stewbones43 converted his to a D horn with an A attachment with a small extension to the main tuning slide.

Still, I like my 36H as an alto for people who don't often play alto.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-09-16 10:44 a.m.

On the other hand, there isn't much to the neckpipe so you could accomplish the same thing by making it removable... I actually think I may have most of the parts for that if you want to come over and check. I have a similar if not identical rotor... why do I have so many parts lying around...?

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2019-09-16 10:45 a.m.

Interesting! I'll be in touch when it arrives.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-09-17 2:24 a.m.

This one:

The Bb valve section slides out on tuning legs from the rotor ports and can be replaced with a whole/half step crook.

I cut my tuning slide down on my 36H about half an inch and it greatly improved the horn.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2019-09-17 6:19 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]The yamaha one was a prototype. Great idea, but I think Ian Bousfield still has it. Rath might also make one like this.

What did you end up getting?[/quote]

I think the Bb slide on that Yamaha is just a longer tuning slide to plug into their existing trill-valve. Somebody else (Elliot Chasanov? Larry Zalkind? Both?!) has a plug-in valve for their Yamaha alto, and I’ve seen a schematic somewhere of a Bb section that plugged into the Yamaha trill valve.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-09-17 6:44 a.m.

Yes, like I explained in my post with the picture of Ian. , Rath makes one like this too. But Yamaha never got past the prototype, and that's what is in that picture.

Here is the Rath one that can be either:

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-09-17 10:41 a.m.

It may have been aftermarket; Dillon had a... 671? a few years ago with a similar Bb attachment that, memory serving, came with a trill crook. If it was aftermarket though, the tech who did the work did a very good job with making sure it looked like a stock horn. I know of one other individual who has had another Bb attachment Yamaha as well but with no aftermarket crook. I think it works better on slightly larger altos; while I do like the Yammies, they are on the small side and in Bb they seem to be a little bit on the stuffy side. Or at least the two that I've tried were. As trill valves they work quite well though. That shouldn't be an indictment of Yamaha though because I have no idea what else happened to that horn, it's simply a guess as to why those two horns played the way they did.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2019-09-17 11:07 a.m.

These are really neat. Love the Yamaha and the Rath...would be nice to have either.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-09-18 1:18 a.m.

Just remember, the Bb valve gives you access to nearly any trill you might want starting at and going above Eb or maybe D in the staff. The whole step / half step valve is really kind of gimmicky and doesn't sound very good as a mechanical trill.

I don't know if Lindberg was the originator of the concept, but he was one of the first to adopt the Bb attachment for trills. You get all the lip trills of the Eb horn, and almost all the lip trills of a Bb tenor with the valve, in addition to some cheap mechanical trills in the Bb partial. But a trill valve gives you either whole or half step trills that don't sound right.

I think it was adopted because all of the "alto trombone concertos" that Lindberg championed were really for Bb tenor, as evidenced by the lip trills required

StevenC · by **StevenC** » 2019-09-18 9:39 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]

Still, I like my 36H as an alto for people who don't often play alto.[/quote]

What makes the 36H especially good for alto dabblers? Every once in a while I find myself in a position where it would be nice to play alto.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-09-18 9:43 p.m.

[quote="StevenC"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="94010" time="1568640080" user_id="53">

Still, I like my 36H as an alto for people who don't often play alto.[/quote]

What makes the 36H especially good for alto dabblers? Every once in a while I find myself in a position where it would be nice to play alto.
</QUOTE>

1. It's bore is similar to many tenors. You won't have to work on changing how you blow into it.

2. The Bb valve can be a help when you have a brain f--t and forget you are playing an Eb instrument. Press the trigger and you are playing a tenor.

The alto purists look down on the 36H but I really like mine.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-01-07 12:39 a.m.

So I'm getting used to my 36H. I play alto a lot...and it took some time to feel comfortable holding the 36H, and the slide lock is kinda weird...but it's a good playing horn. That said, I'm still looking for the perfect horn, which I may never find.

That Rath in this thread looks pretty nice...

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-01-07 1:02 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]

The alto purists look down on the 36H but I really like mine. :good:[/quote]

The Conn 36H has a nice blow, and user friendly pitch. At the recent Tchaikovsky Competition (Trombone division) - all but one of the finalists were playing Conn 36H's.

The B flat attachment to me is good for extra trill possibilities, and for licks that would otherwise need 6th or 7th position either in legato or with fast technique.

There are lots of nice altos out there now, and the 36H is one of them. By the way, I don't currently play a Conn alto, but I do like them and recommend them to students and colleagues as a good option.

Jim Scott

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-07 3:36 a.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]So I'm getting used to my 36H. I play alto a lot...and it took some time to feel comfortable holding the 36H, and the slide lock is kinda weird...but it's a good playing horn. That said, I'm still looking for the perfect horn, which I may never find.

That Rath in this thread looks pretty nice...[/quote]

I've found that the 36H plays best with the tuning slide pushed in 100%. Play long on the slide. It's no wonder the Shires and Rath altos are so good -- apparently TIS and a constant bell taper is a big deal on an alto. I cut 3/8" off my tuning slide, play long, and the 36H plays great with my own version of TIH (tuning in hand). The only alto trombone that plays better was the Shires yellow alto, but the heavy slide was kind of a bummer.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-01-07 10:02 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Neo Bri" post_id="101633" time="1578375569" user_id="50">
So I'm getting used to my 36H. I play alto a lot...and it took some time to feel comfortable holding the 36H, and the slide lock is kinda weird...but it's a good playing horn. That said, I'm still looking for the perfect horn, which I may never find.

That Rath in this thread looks pretty nice...[/quote]

I've found that the 36H plays best with the tuning slide pushed in 100%. Play long on the slide. It's no wonder the Shires and Rath altos are so good -- apparently TIS and a constant bell taper is a big deal on an alto. I cut 3/8" off my tuning slide, play long, and the 36H plays great with my own version of TIH (tuning in hand). The only alto trombone that plays better was the Shires yellow alto, but the heavy slide was kind of a bummer.
</QUOTE>

I play every horn I own with the tuning slide slammed, so I don't even know what it plays like out. But for me the issue is ergonomics.

I didn't mention it before, but I feel that the Bb attachment is too diffuse and unfocused, too. Maybe it's just an alto thing. It's the only Bb attachment I've ever played, and I've owned a lot of altos.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-01-12 8:48 p.m.

If you have an alto with a trigger, now's the time! Let me know. I'm in the market.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-12 9:23 p.m.

Ouch, that didn't last long...

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-01-12 9:37 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Ouch, that didn't last long...[/quote]

Don't get me wrong. I've had the 36H for a while, and I've grown to like it. I think it's a good horn. Played a lot of music on it last night at a gig. That being said, I really do want something like I was talking about in the beginning of the post - so we'll see. Ideally I want to have a C trigger. Even if I cut the 36H, I'm not certain I could get it to C, much less build an alternate crook to have the option of Bb, too.

TromboneConcerto · by **TromboneConcerto** » 2020-01-13 4:11 a.m.

I've seen Thein make horns like this, might want to look into them. Hope you got a nice tax refund, though...

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-07-12 8:34 p.m.

Dead post resurrection. I'm still looking for another alto...

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-12-06 11:52 p.m.

I'm still waiting for the perfect alto...

While we wait, enjoy this song I loved as a kid:

<YOUTUBE id="roRaMyqsDEs">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roRaMyqsDEs</YOUTUBE>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-12-07 12:29 a.m.

I'll do a review of the Shires Eb/Bb once I get it, but that won't be flexible like the Rath either.

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WTB: Good Alto with Flexible Trigger Design