Authentic mouthpiece for an old Conn 78H
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
I am testing a 1921 model Conn 78H, and i am truly enjoying the beautiful sound.. I am using a Bach 3 which seems to fit the horn very nice when i use it for light orchestra/ classical or as a ballad horn (whatever that is).. I am still looking for a suitable piece playing big band, jazz combo or horn section work.. This has made me speculate on what kind of piece did this horn come with/was played when the horn was new..? Have in mind that 1921 is before modern jazz and the weight of the sound make it more of a "legit" horn... Besides at the time, peashooters seemes to be the norm..
So, what kind of piece did it come with?
Thanks
Trond
So, what kind of piece did it come with?
Thanks
Trond
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I have 3 old Conn mouthpieces: Pryor, Innes, and Kenfield. Kenfield played bass, so it's probably too big. The Pryor is VERY small. Maybe the Innes. But it has an unusually small shank (they all do).
Mouthpieces from the early 20th Century were a lot more conical than we use now. My Pryor and Innes are.
Mouthpieces from the early 20th Century were a lot more conical than we use now. My Pryor and Innes are.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
For some reason I had the impression that the 79h was designed with the 6 1/2 al mouthpiece in mind. But the 78h is just the no-valve version of the 79h, and would pre-date that mouthpiece. The 6 1/2 is a pretty safe modern bet with the 78h, regardless. I think the 1920s version of the 78h probably came with a much smaller mouthpiece.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Most likely something like this would have been the standard:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Conn-T ... SwQjxc9aPU">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Conn-Trombone-Mouthpiece/113771121447?hash=item1a7d498b27:g:98UAAOSwQjxc9aPU</LINK_TEXT>
In that era, you would have had some people using the older funnel-shaped designs while others would be going for something more bowl-shaped.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Conn-T ... SwQjxc9aPU">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Conn-Trombone-Mouthpiece/113771121447?hash=item1a7d498b27:g:98UAAOSwQjxc9aPU</LINK_TEXT>
In that era, you would have had some people using the older funnel-shaped designs while others would be going for something more bowl-shaped.
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I used to have a 1928 78H - beautiful sound
Keep in mind that in the early 1920`s, the 78H was an orchestral horn, not a jazz horn.
The early jazz guys were using much smaller horns.
Conn 4`s, Bach 6`s King 2B`s -ish sized horns (in know that some of those horns were not around in 1920 which is why I said -ish)
so I would look for a more "sousa -ish concert band mouthpiece from the period to get a more period sound.
Just me opinion
Keep in mind that in the early 1920`s, the 78H was an orchestral horn, not a jazz horn.
The early jazz guys were using much smaller horns.
Conn 4`s, Bach 6`s King 2B`s -ish sized horns (in know that some of those horns were not around in 1920 which is why I said -ish)
so I would look for a more "sousa -ish concert band mouthpiece from the period to get a more period sound.
Just me opinion
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
Ralph Sauer wrote about Gordon Pulis's equipment in last quarter's ITA journal. He said he used a Bach 4 (not a 4G, a 4) on his 78H. I think that Pulis's mouthpiece choice is perhaps the most "authentic" possible reference.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="paulyg"]Ralph Sauer wrote about Gordon Pulis's equipment in last quarter's ITA journal. He said he used a Bach 4 (not a 4G, a 4) on his 78H. I think that Pulis's mouthpiece choice is perhaps the most "authentic" possible reference.[/quote]
Pulis was born two years after the OP's 78H was built. Vincent Bach was just getting started in 1921; the 1922 Wurlitzer catalog only lists one size (12) for trombone.
Pulis was born two years after the OP's 78H was built. Vincent Bach was just getting started in 1921; the 1922 Wurlitzer catalog only lists one size (12) for trombone.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="paulyg" post_id="94593" time="1569361312" user_id="3299">
Ralph Sauer wrote about Gordon Pulis's equipment in last quarter's ITA journal. He said he used a Bach 4 (not a 4G, a 4) on his 78H. I think that Pulis's mouthpiece choice is perhaps the most "authentic" possible reference.[/quote]
Pulis was born two years after the OP's 78H was built. Vincent Bach was just getting started in 1921; the 1922 Wurlitzer catalog only lists one size (12) for trombone.
</QUOTE>
Exactly!... I have used it with a Bach 3 (small shank/not G) which works fairly well, but i would like to try something a bit more authentic just to get the right feeling of the horn.. I am also borrowing an old 18H "Tait" which come with a Conn "tait" mouthpiece also.. This piece have a fairly deep V-shaped cup and an extremly tight throat... Maybe the 78H came with a slightly larger version of this? :idk:
Trond
Ralph Sauer wrote about Gordon Pulis's equipment in last quarter's ITA journal. He said he used a Bach 4 (not a 4G, a 4) on his 78H. I think that Pulis's mouthpiece choice is perhaps the most "authentic" possible reference.[/quote]
Pulis was born two years after the OP's 78H was built. Vincent Bach was just getting started in 1921; the 1922 Wurlitzer catalog only lists one size (12) for trombone.
</QUOTE>
Exactly!... I have used it with a Bach 3 (small shank/not G) which works fairly well, but i would like to try something a bit more authentic just to get the right feeling of the horn.. I am also borrowing an old 18H "Tait" which come with a Conn "tait" mouthpiece also.. This piece have a fairly deep V-shaped cup and an extremly tight throat... Maybe the 78H came with a slightly larger version of this? :idk:
Trond
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="dukesboneman"]I used to have a 1928 78H - beautiful sound
Keep in mind that in the early 1920`s, the 78H was an orchestral horn, not a jazz horn.
The early jazz guys were using much smaller horns.
Conn 4`s, Bach 6`s King 2B`s -ish sized horns (in know that some of those horns were not around in 1920 which is why I said -ish)
so I would look for a more "sousa -ish concert band mouthpiece from the period to get a more period sound.
Just me opinion[/quote]
In reference to the use of instrument, i am already playing a large tenor and bass, so i would like to use it as a smaller sounding tenor wherever that is appropriate(still beeing able to manage all three horns) .. The bell diameter is 7 1/2" but fairly large for a small shank horn.. While a Bach 3 probably fits the horn better, a 4C give me a sound that fits my use better.. From what i know already, the cups where a bit deeper with more of a V shape, and the throats were smaller (comparing to a Bach).. I am curious to what an original mouthpiece ce would do differently than a Bach small shank..
Keep in mind that in the early 1920`s, the 78H was an orchestral horn, not a jazz horn.
The early jazz guys were using much smaller horns.
Conn 4`s, Bach 6`s King 2B`s -ish sized horns (in know that some of those horns were not around in 1920 which is why I said -ish)
so I would look for a more "sousa -ish concert band mouthpiece from the period to get a more period sound.
Just me opinion[/quote]
In reference to the use of instrument, i am already playing a large tenor and bass, so i would like to use it as a smaller sounding tenor wherever that is appropriate(still beeing able to manage all three horns) .. The bell diameter is 7 1/2" but fairly large for a small shank horn.. While a Bach 3 probably fits the horn better, a 4C give me a sound that fits my use better.. From what i know already, the cups where a bit deeper with more of a V shape, and the throats were smaller (comparing to a Bach).. I am curious to what an original mouthpiece ce would do differently than a Bach small shank..
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I would suggest a Conn Innes, though you might need to put a layer of teflon tape on the shank.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]I would suggest a Conn Innes, though you might need to put a layer of teflon tape on the shank.[/quote]
Thanks!
How are the "Innes" compared to a "Tait"?
Thanks!
How are the "Innes" compared to a "Tait"?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Tbarh"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="94645" time="1569427013" user_id="53">
I would suggest a Conn Innes, though you might need to put a layer of teflon tape on the shank.[/quote]
Thanks!
How are the "Innes" compared to a "Tait"?
</QUOTE>
Don't know. I don't own a Tait.
I would suggest a Conn Innes, though you might need to put a layer of teflon tape on the shank.[/quote]
Thanks!
How are the "Innes" compared to a "Tait"?
</QUOTE>
Don't know. I don't own a Tait.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Have you looked at the info here?
<LINK_TEXT text="https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnMpc ... tists.html">https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnMpcFamousArtists.html</LINK_TEXT>
If I were you, I'd be looking for a Conn Clarke.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnMpc ... tists.html">https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnMpcFamousArtists.html</LINK_TEXT>
If I were you, I'd be looking for a Conn Clarke.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Is the Clarke old enough? Doug Elliott sent me one to analyze for metal content and I played it on a rehearsal. It felt like a very comfortable 6.5 AL (I don't like the Bach 6.5 AL at all). I seriously thought about asking if I could buy it.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Is the Clarke old enough? Doug Elliott sent me one to analyze for metal content and I played it on a rehearsal. It felt like a very comfortable 6.5 AL (I don't like the Bach 6.5 AL at all). I seriously thought about asking if I could buy it.[/quote]
Not enough good info on the web to be sure when the Conn Clarke was introduced. Goes back to the mid-1930's, at least.
Not enough good info on the web to be sure when the Conn Clarke was introduced. Goes back to the mid-1930's, at least.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
Do the Conn "Clarke" models differ from the Bach "Clarke" models much?... As i mentioned above; old Conn mouthpieces are usually V shaped with a small throat.. I am thinking that it would be interesting to compare, and maybe have a copy made... Reeves/brassark make one, but i think it is a copy of a Bach.. Anyway, beeing a bass trombone player, i find it easier to cope with a Bach 3 for now, but i am still curious about the original question..