Bach bass madness

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 12:53 a.m.

Pictured are most of my basses. I have another corporation 50B on the way for some reason...

Horn on the left is an '80s 50B3OG that I had John Sandhagen swap Shires rotors into. I love the wrap now, and boy howdy does it play about 1000X better than the stock Bach valves it had before. In the previous iteration, it would hit a hard dynamic cap at around maybe a forte where it would just stop working. The low range wasn't horrible, but had an even lower dynamic cap. Now it has a great vintage color (gold bell maybe?) and actually plays in all ranges and dynamics. The articulations really pop, too. Playing some jazz etudes on this today, it felt right at home.

The horn with the shiny valve caps is a Meinlschmidt Open Flow valve set with reverse tuning slide connector from an Edwards adapted for my Bach corp bells (one with screw ring, one without). This is a monster of an instrument. The Open Flows are purported to be .615 in my set, which makes them ridiculously open but still easy to play. They don't have quite the same width to the sound that very open Thayers would have, but are easier to play and have a very smooth, fast action. This horn, with the screwbell, has almost no dynamic limit that I can find. Even my last horn (stainless thayers, different screwbell, Edwards dual bore slide) would stop responding at a certain point and was much, much harder to play. The non-screwbell is a lighter, fast responding bell that does have a dynamic limit, but has a great color and a great sound in general. It's probably my favorite to play.

I have two slides right now, with the 50B coming I will have another.

The slide on top is an Edwards V slide- single bore, gold tubes, yellow crook. I haven't had much luck with single bore slides for a while. 50 slides are too stuffy, or inconsistent, and they all feel like they are muffling my inputs. I had a standard Edwards single bore for a while, but it played so badly with my Thayer horn at the time that I traded it for this one. It also didn't work with the Thayer horn, but it has really worked on the other Bachs I've had. It has a really great sound and color that I don't get from standard material Edwards slides, and a much better response and action than anything I've had from Bach.

The other slide is a standard Shires B62/78 dual bore with yellow tubes and nickel crook. This slide plays very, very well on everything, and actually seals in 7th position, unlike my old Edwards. My only issue with it right now is that the Shires tenon doesn't quite fit Bach receivers (flops over, doesn't thread all the way). I had it torched off and replaced with an Edwards tenon. Problem solved, right? Nope, it fits exactly the same and doesn't thread. Going to buy a new Edwards tenon that should solve it for once and all, I think... This slide has a nice wide sound, lots of core, and just easier to play for me than any of the single bores I have had.

My leadpipes currently in use are a stock Bach 50 leadpipe with a threaded ring on it, an Edwards 2SS, and Shires B2.

I talk a lot about dynamic limits and running into them here. Some members here might take that to mean I'm a total meathead that's only concerned with playing loud. Maybe you're right! However, as I have become a more relaxed and efficient player, I have discovered the limits to my instruments. My tenors actually do this better than my basses, which is why I attribute it to the trombones. I want some color as I play louder, but I don't want to lose the core entirely as I approach that point, which some horns definitely do. As singers would say, never shout. Always sing.

This is all played with my Greg Black 1G .312 #2 (one of them, anyway). I went through my collection of bass pieces a couple weeks ago, recording a couple excerpts and writing down my thoughts. Listening blind, I picked out the Greg Blacks every time, as well as preferring how they played. I've been trying to get my ego out of my equipment choice... turns out this time that it came out the same!

Thanks for reading this long, dumb post... As I work through all these combinations, I'm thinking about just selling it all and buying a Shires bell section. We'll see!

Also, the horn I will be playing the most in the next month? The Yamaha 830 at work. :pant:

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-09-24 1:09 a.m.

NICEEEEEE. Those really are some nice horns, and well customized to your liking. I'm generally afraid to mess with anything, so my bass remains my Yamaha 612. I figure if Phil Teele could get it to work, I can probably make something out of it.

I've been trying to get equipment out of my head, as I've realized I really built up a "fleet" of trombones with more worry about "covering basses" than about getting something that really works for me.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 1:14 a.m.

I had a realization a few months ago that I had some horns that weren't very good, at least for me, and I couldn't really justify why I had them. I've since pared down to two tenors that are some of the best I have ever played, a contra... that gets the job done, and I'm still working on the basses. It's really the tenors that made me realize how good a trombone could be, and how much I was giving up by just having horns that were ok.

I have a friend that got one of Phil's 612s... Not what I would probably choose to play (dependent and all) but it's an amazing horn.

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-09-24 2:07 a.m.

It's funny, I was just watching a few of your videos about mouthpieces and some of your horns as I've been working on improving my own sound lately. It reminds me that it's alright for me to not like the rotors on the Rath I borrow.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 2:14 a.m.

Be picky! In today's world, there's no reason to compromise (at least at some level).

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2019-09-24 8:08 a.m.

Nice stash!

I'm planning a dependent valve section build for my early Elkhart Bach 50 using Meinlschmidts, though probably a more standard bore size.

The slide talk is interesting. My 50 slide (w/Kanstul 169 lead pipe) sounds pretty good, but is a little covered sounding, and the upper register is a little finicky. If you get it exactly right, it's fine, but not much margin for error. I've played the horn with a single bore Edwards slide and a similar Shires slide, and each of them were easier to navigate. Much more evenness and resonance, but it somehow felt like it lost a little character. Perhaps when I do the valve conversion, I'll get Shires to make me their version of a 50 slide (B62LYC?)

Andrew

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-09-24 10:33 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I had a realization a few months ago that I had some horns that weren't very good, at least for me, and I couldn't really justify why I had them. I've since pared down to two tenors that are some of the best I have ever played, a contra... that gets the job done, and I'm still working on the basses. It's really the tenors that made me realize how good a trombone could be, and how much I was giving up by just having horns that were ok.

I have a friend that got one of Phil's 612s... Not what I would probably choose to play (dependent and all) but it's an amazing horn.[/quote] Yeah, I hear you. Once you play a horn that really "meshes" with you, there isn't a reason to compromise, outside of specialty horns like a Jazz horn, or an Alto, etc. When i was still buying horns, I was thinking "well I need to have a Bach type horn and a Conn 88H type horn etc etc". That really wasn't the best way to go about it, though the horns I did get are both quite nice (Kanstul 1570/1588), though not being able to get parts in the future is a bit worrysome.

I always was trying go get a better look at Phil's 612. I could never tell whether he had he the split triggers, or just went with the original "stacked" triggers. I tried out an older 612 at Dillon Music a while ago, and honestly didn't like it as much compared to my own. I also tried my horn compared to some more "boutique" dependent basses, and honestly for my level, I didn't notice any improvement, so I just decided "this is my bass". It doesn't have any condition issues so there's no reason for me to really need another.

Bassbonechandler · by **Bassbonechandler** » 2019-09-24 10:34 a.m.

You ever consider going back to thayers? Maybe the shires lone star? Other option is you sell everything you own just to buy a latzsch contrabass..

:D

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2019-09-24 12:23 p.m.

Fun to see this collection of stuff. I really like Bachs, too. My current main bass is a Bach 50 Corporation modified and rebuilt by Mich Rath with dual Hagmanns. Sweet horn.

Bassbonechandler · by **Bassbonechandler** » 2019-09-24 1:04 p.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]Fun to see this collection of stuff. I really like Bachs, too. My current main bass is a Bach 50 Corporation modified and rebuilt by Mich Rath with dual Hagmanns. Sweet horn.[/quote]

Sounds really cool! Do you have pictures of it?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 1:27 p.m.

[quote="TheBoneRanger"]Nice stash!

The slide talk is interesting. My 50 slide (w/Kanstul 169 lead pipe) sounds pretty good, but is a little covered sounding, and the upper register is a little finicky. If you get it exactly right, it's fine, but not much margin for error. I've played the horn with a single bore Edwards slide and a similar Shires slide, and each of them were easier to navigate. Much more evenness and resonance, but it somehow felt like it lost a little character. Perhaps when I do the valve conversion, I'll get Shires to make me their version of a 50 slide (B62LYC?)

Andrew[/quote]

There is some character that a good 50 slide brings to the table. I just find that the character typically covers up everything else... it ends up not sounding like me, but like the slide wants me to sound. I think I like to rely on the bell to supply the sound for that Bach-ness.

[quote="Bassbonechandler"]You ever consider going back to thayers? Maybe the shires lone star? Other option is you sell everything you own just to buy a latzsch contrabass..

:D[/quote]

Right now, if I do sell all this... a Lone Star bell section is my first choice.

[quote="Neo Bri"]Fun to see this collection of stuff. I really like Bachs, too. My current main bass is a Bach 50 Corporation modified and rebuilt by Mich Rath with dual Hagmanns. Sweet horn.[/quote]

I have a friend with one of those. How many are out there?

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-09-24 1:57 p.m.

To the OP: how many different trombones have you owned?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 1:59 p.m.

Oh boy. I had a count of Bachs I've owned, but not trombones... I think the 50B on the way is Bach #23 or #24. Trombones? Maybe mid 30s.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2019-09-24 4:36 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Right now, if I do sell all this... a Lone Star bell section is my first choice.[/quote]

But that wouldn't be nearly as cool!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 4:40 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94568" time="1569346059" user_id="3131">
Right now, if I do sell all this... a Lone Star bell section is my first choice.[/quote]

But that wouldn't be nearly as cool!
</QUOTE>

I still have a Voight contra and the Jankmeister 3B for my cool cards!

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-09-24 4:53 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Oh boy. I had a count of Bachs I've owned, but not trombones... I think the 50B on the way is Bach #23 or #24. Trombones? Maybe mid 30s.[/quote]

Plus mods-I'd hate to ask how many mods you've paid for! At what point do you say one of them is good enough? I'm not judging you, just curious when you say good enough.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 4:56 p.m.

The bass with the Meinlschmidts is definitely the closest to a perfect horn that I have gotten to. Usually, I get something, and if it has some promise, I'll do some mods to see where it ends up. If I'm still not happy, it usually moves along.

I think the only truly bad horn was a 42BO I bought from DJ back in undergrad. A dog of a 42.

I'm thinking of a Shires because I know I won't be wowed by it daily, but it will be consistent and get the job done. This stuff is fun but it takes time and money, money that could be going towards an eventual house in oh-so-cheap California.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-09-24 5:07 p.m.

The only place to buy a cheap house in California is in Paradise -- "slightly charred" :tongue: :evil:

Bassbonechandler · by **Bassbonechandler** » 2019-09-24 5:34 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]The bass with the Meinlschmidts is definitely the closest to a perfect horn that I have gotten to. Usually, I get something, and if it has some promise, I'll do some mods to see where it ends up. If I'm still not happy, it usually moves along.

I think the only truly bad horn was a 42BO I bought from DJ back in undergrad. A dog of a 42.

I'm thinking of a Shires because I know I won't be wowed by it daily, but it will be consistent and get the job done. This stuff is fun but it takes time and money, money that could be going towards an eventual house in oh-so-cheap California.[/quote]

So what instruments are made to be more consistent than anything else? Edwards and shires?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 5:40 p.m.

Yup, the orchestral horns from either.

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-09-24 5:56 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Be picky! In today's world, there's no reason to compromise (at least at some level).[/quote]

I'll try to be a little picky when I on the market for a bass trombone soon but not too picky considering my small budget.

So this is just the engineer student in me but I was wondering what it is about the Bach 50's slide that changes your sound so much. I'm neither an experienced enough trombonist nor far enough into school to say myself but I find those characteristics interesting about horns.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 6:02 p.m.

[quote="RConrad"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94544" time="1569305679" user_id="3131">
Be picky! In today's world, there's no reason to compromise (at least at some level).[/quote]

So this is just the engineer student in me but I was wondering what it is about the Bach 50's slide that changes your sound so much. I'm neither an experienced enough trombonist nor far enough into school to say myself but I find those characteristics interesting about horns.
</QUOTE>

Heavier construction (thicker tubes), leadpipe, crook... it all combines.

I have played several great 42 slides, and my current A47 slide is quite good in all ways, so I think there are probably 50 slides out there that I would like. I just haven't found one (maybe a dozen so far).

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-09-24 6:37 p.m.

Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 6:42 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?[/quote]

well, that's not a lot of fun... Also, I haven't spent more than $3k on a trombone, ever. To spend upwards of $7k (with the trip and hotel and all that) for 1 instrument is a little more than I can do at once.

That said, I may sell all of these toys and go do just that this year.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-09-24 7:59 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="94597" time="1569364658" user_id="2978">
Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?[/quote]

well, that's not a lot of fun... Also, I haven't spent more than $3k on a trombone, ever. To spend upwards of $7k (with the trip and hotel and all that) for 1 instrument is a little more than I can do at once.

That said, I may sell all of these toys and go do just that this year.
</QUOTE>

$3k multiplied by how many instruments you've bought and you could have probably have at least 4 Edwards or Shires by now, and have exactly what you want. I'm not criticizing or judging your decisions, I'm just suggesting your search for the ideal instrument might be easier if you take a different path.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 8:13 p.m.

Well, I look at it this way. If I had scrimped up enough for a new Shires or Edwards at the beginning of my masters (which was not possible at the time), my playing has changed enough in those years that I would have probably changed major components/horns probably 3 or 4 times anyway. This is a much cheaper method of figuring out what my face and sound concept want in the end... and it's more interesting.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2019-09-24 8:33 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?[/quote]

Sometimes every possible combination from a boutique manufacturer still won't have what you're looking for. They're not a guaranteed solution, and sometimes only a specific vintage horn will do. Every manfuacturer, boutique or not, has their own flavor. That's why the hunt is fun!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 8:45 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="94597" time="1569364658" user_id="2978">
Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?[/quote]

sometimes only a specific vintage horn will do.
</QUOTE>

Yup. I really prefer the sound of my Bachs to any boutique horn I've tried, I'm just finally willing to sacrifice a bit of that.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2019-09-24 9:10 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="94602" time="1569371605" user_id="136">

sometimes only a specific vintage horn will do.[/quote]

Yup. I really prefer the sound of my Bachs to any boutique horn I've tried, I'm just finally willing to sacrifice a bit of that.
</QUOTE>

Sacrifice the sound in exchange for? Ease of playability? Consistency?

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2019-09-24 9:17 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?[/quote]

Only a Bach sounds like a Bach. If that's the sound you hear in your head, it's hard to get there without at least a Bach bell and tuning slide...

Andrew

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-09-24 9:40 p.m.

If only a Bach will provide that sound you hear in your head then of course that is what you should play. I just find it hard to believe that a modern Edwards or Shires cannot get you there a whole lot easier.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 9:43 p.m.

What I've found, and this may be total bunk, is that the easier a horn is, the more character it gives up. The harder it is (if it's a good horn, anyway), the more character it has. That's why the 70H I played a few years ago was so colorful, and almost impossible to play. Same with a Corp 50B2 I had for a while. Crazy, dark, vintage sound. Edwards B454? Extremely easy to play, and that's about it.

There's a happy medium that I think an upgraded Bach 50 can find, but boy is it hard to find.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-09-24 9:52 p.m.

Harder = more character? That is bunk. Boutique makers have proved that a trombone can be made that's easier to play, with predictable intonation, and all the character you want. Why not get an instrument that allows you an easier time to work on your craft? But I apologize, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. To the OP, I appreciate your passion to be your best and that includes finding the right equipment for you.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 9:56 p.m.

I'm not coming to this with inexperience... I have played a ton of horns. These are just my observations. And many people choose to have the easier playing horn over the more interesting one, including me!

Ramhorn · by **Ramhorn** » 2019-09-24 11:50 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]What I've found, and this may be total bunk, is that the easier a horn is, the more character it gives up.[/quote]

This part below is mine. I'm having trouble with the quote option. Ramhorn

I find this to be the case also based purely on my own experimenting over the years. I think it was Gabe Langfur in the old forum who put it best in an objective way (I'm paraphrasing from memory here, so please forgive any misquoting) He stated that on his Shires, the overtones just line up differently than on his Bach. He also spoke about the texture of each sound as the Shires being like silk and the Bach being like tweed. Having it explained that way helped me to look at it more objectively. I now think of the difference in sound between old and new horn designs in that way.

I like tweed, heck I would prefer corduroy if given the choice. But as an amateur, I don't have the time to practice my old Bach into submission. Having a boutique horn allows me to skip a couple of days of practice and not fall too far behind, because it is so easy to play.

In the mean time I'll keep scouring YouTube and other platforms for recordings with Tony Studd (my all time favourite) and try like heck to mimic what he is doing.

Ramhorn.

<Edited by Moderator to fix quote>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-24 11:57 p.m.

That's a very good way to put it.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-09-25 6:31 a.m.

Interesting conversations.....

First off, I am glad you backed off my corp 50 Burgerbob... I passed it on unmodified as it was too good to mess with and the new owner realises what he has.... a great trombone that he can learn how to play... seriously good blow and the best Bach sound ever.

If a certain make has the qualities that you like, buy a good example and work at it..... the player needs to work at the instrument... as long as it is good, accept the fact that it will never be perfect and work at your side.

I've blown some real dogs from boutique makers... and some gems.... if you want a top end horn, manufacturer consistency is not so important... you just need to try a lot of what you like and find a good one....you only need one.

Decide how important sound is.... the sound of a particular make in your hands.... if it a big deal, get that horn and work at it.

Decide how important ease of playing is and see if you are willing to compromise sound for ease.

Remember, in a very competitive market, your sound is your biggest asset.

Chris

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2019-09-25 10:32 a.m.

There is something to the sound/playability divide, but it doesn't have to be an either/or.

I own a very nice 70H (pre-WWII) and a very nice 50B (mid-60s) with a single Rotax valve. Both have texture to the sound - sort of a tough wooliness, like Harris tweed - that I haven't been able to recreate with Shires. I can get great sounds that work everywhere I go with the Shires - usually fitting in sections better than the Conn or the Bach - but I can't quite get that texture.

If I don't ask the Conn for the biggest volume levels or extreme ranges, it's as playable as anything. The Bach is not quite as nimble, and it's not the easiest in the high range, but when I play it exclusively for a couple of days it starts to open up nicely and I get used to what the high range needs. If I lived in a place where Bach was the norm, I could play this instrument very happily for almost everything I do.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-09-25 11:30 a.m.

Yes Gabe, I hear what you say. This is still (the UK) predominantly Conn land and ease of blending can be more worthwhile than ease of playing at times, though my 70H and 62H are easy enough.

Chris

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-09-25 12:31 p.m.

Holtons. Easy to play. TONS of character!!!!!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-25 12:36 p.m.

There are amazing vintage horns out there that are easy to play, I'm sure. I have a friend with a quite stellar 62H that is open and has that Conn sound in spades. I'd love to find something that I didn't have to change in some way.

They are rare and typically expensive, though.

My Minick Holton 180 was not especially easy to play or good sounding, though I'm sure there's good examples out there as well.

And Chris is right, of course... I had a Shires setup that was quite mediocre, bordering on bad in the past. I don't want one of those again!

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-09-25 1:03 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'm not coming to this with inexperience... I have played a ton of horns. These are just my observations. And many people choose to have the easier playing horn over the more interesting one, including me![/quote]

My experience is there are very few bad horns. The horns are just different. If you go with the horn most are nice horns but with their own character. If you want the horn to sound exactly the same then you have troubles and you will find some horns to be difficult. Its (what I think) because you try to make them into something they are not.

/Tom

bimmerman · by **bimmerman** » 2019-09-25 1:54 p.m.

My super duper subjective two cents:

I forget which member posted it on the old forum, but someone posted a youtube video playing a King 2B of some vintage back to back with his new shiny Rath, playing a couple choruses each. It was startling to hear the difference in sound between the horns-- it was clearly easier for him to play on the Rath and the sound was 'purer' for lack of a better word, but to my ears (and through youtube compression), rather sterile when compared to the King. The King was clearly more of a challenge to play but had such a rich tone. I haven't been able to find that video since then, unfortunately. This isn't a drag on his playing, which was excellent!

Another example is a video by Toby Oft playing Bolero on youtube, directly switching between his standard Edwards and a Bach LT36G. The Bach just sounds so much richer and flavorful than the Edwards, on that excerpt, while the Edwards sounds very consistent and clear. Granted, bore size difference too. Video: youtube.com/watch?v=4S9sHesN_WU

I think there's definitely something to be said for boutique horns sounding less complex, generally speaking, than good vintage horns, with the tradeoff being vastly improved consistency up and down the horn and across dynamics.

My Edwards vs my Bachs follow the same trend. It's easier to play the fancy horn, but it is lacking some character.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-09-25 2:11 p.m.

[quote="GabeLangfur"]There is something to the sound/playability divide, but it doesn't have to be an either/or.

I own a very nice 70H (pre-WWII) and a very nice 50B (mid-60s) with a single Rotax valve. Both have texture to the sound - sort of a tough wooliness, like Harris tweed - that I haven't been able to recreate with Shires. I can get great sounds that work everywhere I go with the Shires - usually fitting in sections better than the Conn or the Bach - but I can't quite get that texture.

If I don't ask the Conn for the biggest volume levels or extreme ranges, it's as playable as anything. The Bach is not quite as nimble, and it's not the easiest in the high range, but when I play it exclusively for a couple of days it starts to open up nicely and I get used to what the high range needs. If I lived in a place where Bach was the norm, I could play this instrument very happily for almost everything I do.[/quote]

Gabe this is probably why I have such difficulty playing more modern instruments. I'm constantly fighting them to get the sound I want. As you know I'm tinkering with a Rath R9 at the moment. Easier for me to play than most modern instruments but even with the pipes you sent to try I'm not quite there(although 1 of those pipes is pretty good <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> ).

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-25 3:07 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94612" time="1569376617" user_id="3131">
I'm not coming to this with inexperience... I have played a ton of horns. These are just my observations. And many people choose to have the easier playing horn over the more interesting one, including me![/quote]

My experience is there are very few bad horns. The horns are just different. If you go with the horn most are nice horns but with their own character. If you want the horn to sound exactly the same then you have troubles and you will find some horns to be difficult. Its (what I think) because you try to make them into something they are not.

/Tom
</QUOTE>

There aren't many bad horns, but there are some. There are a majority, however, that are just OK. With the plethora of horns and options out there today, there's no reason to compromise with OK.

Like I said, I don't think I've owned a bass yet that was an actual dog of a horn... But only a couple that were very good.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2019-09-25 10:51 p.m.

[quote="bimmerman"]I forget which member posted it on the old forum, but someone posted a youtube video playing a King 2B of some vintage back to back with his new shiny Rath, playing a couple choruses each. It was startling to hear the difference in sound between the horns-- it was clearly easier for him to play on the Rath and the sound was 'purer' for lack of a better word, but to my ears (and through youtube compression), rather sterile when compared to the King. The King was clearly more of a challenge to play but had such a rich tone. I haven't been able to find that video since then, unfortunately. This isn't a drag on his playing, which was excellent!
[/quote]

I seem to recall Bret Steed doing something like this.

--Andy in OKC

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2019-09-25 11:08 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]

Also, the horn I will be playing the most in the next month? The Yamaha 830 at work. :pant:[/quote]

What made you get an 830?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-25 11:14 p.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94538" time="1569300826" user_id="3131">

Also, the horn I will be playing the most in the next month? The Yamaha 830 at work. :pant:[/quote]

What made you get an 830?
</QUOTE>

They bought one! And since it's one of the best examples of an 830 that I've played, I figured I may as well save my own horns and use theirs.

FeelMyRath · by **FeelMyRath** » 2019-09-26 3:44 p.m.

[quote="afugate"]<QUOTE author="bimmerman" post_id="94656" time="1569434088" user_id="2974">
I forget which member posted it on the old forum, but someone posted a youtube video playing a King 2B of some vintage back to back with his new shiny Rath, playing a couple choruses each. It was startling to hear the difference in sound between the horns-- it was clearly easier for him to play on the Rath and the sound was 'purer' for lack of a better word, but to my ears (and through youtube compression), rather sterile when compared to the King. The King was clearly more of a challenge to play but had such a rich tone. I haven't been able to find that video since then, unfortunately. This isn't a drag on his playing, which was excellent!
[/quote]

I seem to recall Bret Steed doing something like this.

--Andy in OKC
</QUOTE>
I'm also fairly sure it was a 2B vs an R2 so again there's a difference in bore size, much like the Oft clip.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2019-09-27 8:46 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94612" time="1569376617" user_id="3131">
I'm not coming to this with inexperience... I have played a ton of horns. These are just my observations. And many people choose to have the easier playing horn over the more interesting one, including me![/quote]

My experience is there are very few bad horns. The horns are just different. If you go with the horn most are nice horns but with their own character. If you want the horn to sound exactly the same then you have troubles and you will find some horns to be difficult. Its (what I think) because you try to make them into something they are not.

/Tom
</QUOTE>

In my experience, Bach instruments vary widely, and there are truly terrible ones out there. We had a student at Boston University who struggled to consistently make a quality sound. It turned out that her Bach 42BO was so terrible that nobody could consistently make a good sound on it.

My test is the F# in 5th position. On the bad Bachs I've played, that note feels like a completely different instrument from everything around it. On the good ones, it feels and sounds consistent through and around that F#. I don't know why; I just know that's been my observation.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-09-27 9:32 a.m.

Have to agree Gabe... very many bad Bachs out there, but the good ones are to die for.

Chris

imsevimse · 2019-09-27 11:12 a.m.

[quote="GabeLangfur"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="94654" time="1569431026" user_id="3173">

My experience is there are very few bad horns. The horns are just different. If you go with the horn most are nice horns but with their own character. If you want the horn to sound exactly the same then you have troubles and you will find some horns to be difficult. Its (what I think) because you try to make them into something they are not.

/Tom[/quote]

In my experience, Bach instruments vary widely, and there are truly terrible ones out there. We had a student at Boston University who struggled to consistently make a quality sound. It turned out that her Bach 42BO was so terrible that nobody could consistently make a good sound on it.

My test is the F# in 5th position. On the bad Bachs I've played, that note feels like a completely different instrument from everything around it. On the good ones, it feels and sounds consistent through and around that F#. I don't know why; I just know that's been my observation.
</QUOTE>

I've heard it said by many good players that Bachs vary a lot and it can be hard to find a good one. I must be lucky. I have five Bachs 50, 42, 42B, 36BO, 39 alto from the 80ies that play very well and a Mnt Vernon Bach 45 and Mnt Vernon Bach 12 that are real good too. The only Bach I have played that was a dog is my New York 6 VII, but the reason was it had a trashed leadpipe. When it was replaced it became a very good horn. Other Bachs I've tried is a good Bach 34 belonging to a friend.

In a shop here they had at one time 20 vintage basses and half of them were rebuilt vintage Conns. All Conns were bad, but I think the reason was they were rebuilt. They had a very good Bach 50 and a good double with 10.5' both in original. I do remember I playtested a bad Bousher. It vas a student of mine who asked me to try the horn before he bought it. It was so bad. It had no C in sixth position. I got so angry and upset I called the shop and said they should warn students from buying that horn. They did not understand what I was talking about I also remember a friend had a King 2b with nothing working around fifth position. It was real hard to make a sound there. This was long ago and I did nog investigate the horns in closeup. They might have been in need of cleaning and problem solved. Another friend had a King 2b I leant on a rehearsal. He said it was usless and it was but it was an emergency and he asked if I was available. I said yes but I need a horn. He brought that horn and it was the worst horn you could think of. In the pause I checked the leadpipe and found dirt hard as concrete. I took my pocket knife and carved out the dirt. After this the horn was a player. If I had not done that I could have bought it cheap but after that cleaning he started to use the horn a lot. We still talk about that moment when he realised what had been wrong with the horn all these years. Also the horn I first got when I was in the army was a dog, a large bore Yamaha . That one was terrible. The Holton 183 I bought from Dillons was also real bad until I had a technician have a look at it. It had a leak in the valve section that he managed to repair.

Ok, now if I'm bad horns I've played in original shape there are a total of six real dogs. One of them I cleaned and two of them were repaired. Three more I did not bother to check. They might have been fixed.

This is from owning or have played hundreds and hundereds of horns over 40 years. There are bad ones but to me they were not Bachs or it could be fixed.

/Tom

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-27 2:27 p.m.

Tom, I think we have different definitions. I have played few horns that were truly awful, but then again I have played few horns that were truly great.

Like I said before in this thread, be picky! I have had many horns go through my hands that were acceptable, but didn't meet my needs entirely. Why keep them around?

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2019-09-27 2:29 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Have to agree Gabe... very many bad Bachs out there, but the good ones are to die for.

Chris[/quote]

One of these days you must play mine, Chris :biggrin:

My 70H too... :biggrin:

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-09-28 2:39 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Tom, I think we have different definitions. I have played few horns that were truly awful, but then again I have played few horns that were truly great.

Like I said before in this thread, be picky! I have had many horns go through my hands that were acceptable, but didn't meet my needs entirely. Why keep them around?[/quote]

You could be right or I could be right or we both could be right.

What I'm thinking is it is the match horn/player that makes a horn good.

There could be horns with physical errors and then they are really bad (might be bad for all) but besides this my way to handle strange horns is with the approach it has to do with limitations in technique on my part or it needs a change in mouthpiece.

With technique and mouthpiece switch I can adopt to any horn and learn to accept it has differences. There could be certain notes that are flat or sharp. If I'm not used to such horn I will think of it as a horn with strange intonation. If I see the problem differently I just learn what to do with those notes.

The same goes with sound. If I have a sound in mind and if I'm used to a horn that gives me that sound with ease then me and the horn is a good match. It will be easy for me to look at that horn as a good horn.

If the sound I'm looking for is not there I have to do something. I might have to change the mouthpiece to come closer to my sound or I do a change of leadpipe. Some will convert the horn to Thayers and open wrap to change the sound. Another way is to avoid physical change of the horn and use and keep the character of the horn as is.

Does this mean it is a bad or mediocre horn? No not to me because I work on the horn with the different cheap methods I have ready.

If we look different at this we might say we are both right <EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI> To me it is point to keep the horn that might be "strange" to other players. If you are looking for one special sounding horn then you need to search until you find that horn and horns will pass through your hand and you will not see the point to keep more than one horn.

A good example on different views could be that some would never consider to buy a single valved bass because they see it as an imperfect instrument for advanced bass parts. To me a single has all the notes I need. Bad horn or good horn when it comes to a single valved bass for advanced bass parts depends on the availability of fake notes, and that ability very much depends on the player.

/Tom

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-28 6:06 p.m.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Tom.

I have pretty good false tones- I played a 50B as my only bass for a period in college, and I have always worked on them. I would never, ever say that I can make my low C and B sound as good as fake notes as real ones through two valves. That difference can easily be the difference between being called back or not in the professional world. The people around are picky as much as I am.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-09-28 6:19 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Tom.

I have pretty good false tones- I played a 50B as my only bass for a period in college, and I have always worked on them. I would never, ever say that I can make my low C and B sound as good as fake notes as real ones through two valves. That difference can easily be the difference between being called back or not in the professional world. The people around are picky as much as I am.[/quote]
Yes but it is individual. There are infact people who can play false tones at professional level and no professional player around will hear the difference. We dont have to agree go disagree. We can agree people are different and have different talents. We can agree we approach this subject differently.

There are also different use of horns which can motivate the use of a certain horn. I have not yet found anything that demands an inline bass, but I own two of them. I have not felt I need a Thayer although I have a good Edwards T350 with Thayer. It's a good horn but I seem to find more use of my Bach 36BO.

Many professional trombone players keep more than one horn. Some only keep one and they might have the same approach as you. Both work and there are good points to follow any of those two approaches. What ever works for you

/Tom

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-28 11:13 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94895" time="1569708397" user_id="3131">
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Tom.

I have pretty good false tones- I played a 50B as my only bass for a period in college, and I have always worked on them. I would never, ever say that I can make my low C and B sound as good as fake notes as real ones through two valves. That difference can easily be the difference between being called back or not in the professional world. The people around are picky as much as I am.[/quote]
Yes but it is individual. There are infact people who can play false tones at professional level and no professional player around will hear the difference. We dont have to agree go disagree. We can agree people are different and have different talents. We can agree we approach this subject differently.

There are also different use of horns which can motivate the use of a certain horn. I have not yet found anything that demands an inline bass, but I own two of them. I have not felt I need a Thayer although I have a good Edwards T350 with Thayer. It's a good horn but I seem to find more use of my Bach 36BO.

Many professional trombone players keep more than one horn. Some only keep one and they might have the same approach as you. Both work and there are good points to follow any of those two approaches. What ever works for you

/Tom
</QUOTE>

I'm sure there are some who can pass false tones off as real. But, all respect meant here, I'd have to ask for examples.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-09-29 1:15 a.m.

[quote="Bassbonechandler"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94588" time="1569358598" user_id="3131">
The bass with the Meinlschmidts is definitely the closest to a perfect horn that I have gotten to. Usually, I get something, and if it has some promise, I'll do some mods to see where it ends up. If I'm still not happy, it usually moves along.

I think the only truly bad horn was a 42BO I bought from DJ back in undergrad. A dog of a 42.

I'm thinking of a Shires because I know I won't be wowed by it daily, but it will be consistent and get the job done. This stuff is fun but it takes time and money, money that could be going towards an eventual house in oh-so-cheap California.[/quote]

So what instruments are made to be more consistent than anything else? Edwards and shires?
</QUOTE>

I have been playing on my 502i for about a year now. It really is an amazing playing horn. It is neck and neck with my Greenhoe Edwards, which is a very, very good playing horn. I have been very happy with Edwards equipment.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-09-29 1:16 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Tom.

I have pretty good false tones- I played a 50B as my only bass for a period in college, and I have always worked on them. I would never, ever say that I can make my low C and B sound as good as fake notes as real ones through two valves. That difference can easily be the difference between being called back or not in the professional world. The people around are picky as much as I am.[/quote]

Did you work on false tones on your 50B? For me false tones are much easier on small bore and medium bore horns. Somewhere I used to have a recording of myself playing a low C false tone on my Bach 36. Sounded pretty damn good. :shuffle:

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-09-29 1:23 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'm not coming to this with inexperience... I have played a ton of horns. These are just my observations. And many people choose to have the easier playing horn over the more interesting one, including me![/quote]

I think that a horn that has a very wide slot has more character, not so much based on age. Modern horns can be set up to slot easier, which makes playing consistent easier. Nothing wrong with either approach. Different needs for different players.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-29 1:41 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94895" time="1569708397" user_id="3131">
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Tom.

I have pretty good false tones- I played a 50B as my only bass for a period in college, and I have always worked on them. I would never, ever say that I can make my low C and B sound as good as fake notes as real ones through two valves. That difference can easily be the difference between being called back or not in the professional world. The people around are picky as much as I am.[/quote]

Did you work on false tones on your 50B? For me false tones are much easier on small bore and medium bore horns. Somewhere I used to have a recording of myself playing a low C false tone on my Bach 36. Sounded pretty damn good. :shuffle:
</QUOTE>

On all horns, but primarily on large tenor and bass. I can make them sound pretty good... But never good enough to pass for a real note with core than someone could be comfortable tuning to and playing next to.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-09-29 3:28 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'm sure there are some who can pass false tones off as real. But, all respect meant here, I'd have to ask for examples.[/quote]

Yes, I fully understand this is why anybody is sceptical about false tones. I could say I use them and then the natural comment would be to ask me to proof how good they are which means to document that I could do false tones with as good a sound as the best double valved player in the world do their notes. I have put up videos to show my false tones already but they are now old and there you will hear they fit my other notes (you can find them on my website in the signature) but NO I can not compete with a player that is better than me in any way other than possibly this; to play a nice false tone.

I can not in technical playing show off and compete and play things effortlessly and be compared with any of the best classical bass players and the same goes for tenor players or any professional that is more professional than me, but I have in memory my teacher and close friend Sven Larssons false tones as he played them in the 80ies in closeup and in all professional performances where he always choose the single. If you find records where he play bass trombone and you hear a C or B it is a false tone. It could be loud or soft long or short it did not bother him as he also did them with circular breathing. You can also listen to GR and analyse what you hear there even though I doubt he used them far as often as Sven did. I've read interviews with GR where he says he used them but most as a passing note. Sven had no limitations when to use hem. There is a short example of a note excerpt with a technical chromatic passage that was discussed on the old forum where members discussed what valve combinations on the double to use and started to make recordings. I put up a video where I used false tones with my Bach 50 to solve the excerpt. It is still a video that is on my page and can give anyone with doubts a hint what is possible with false tones.

It's not there to show off and I'm convinced there are many players who can do it better on their double and hopefully some with a single. The video is to fill those with hope who do not believe this will ever work. If it is something about it you do not like then remember I'm a tenor player mostly and I'm working at this. It can be improved but I'm performing the excerpt and you can see and hear that I am.

Bass parts have become more difficult today and they write a lot of technical low stuff they did not do in the old days. They had the problem back in the old days too and then they had to solve rhe problem with false tones.

I guess today some technical music for bass trombone probably demand a double because composers might write specially for the inline double. As a professional you now probably need one to win competitions where you need to be prepared for anything. That music is not what I'm doing ever, and I'm not talking against the double as a technical aid. I have several doubles and two of them are inlines. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying the quality of a false tone can be as good as the same tone on a double or in fact better but I think that might to be controversial. In some context I conisider the sound of a single better for the pursue and that goes for false tone as well, but this is rather subjective I know that. It is however why I struggle with this.

False tones is an old art that is forgotten. But in my head I have actually still in memory how they sound when they are played with no effort and as fluent as other notes. Sven was probably the best in Europe at that time and made 1000 of recordings where he used them. Today I don't know anyone who use them like he did besides me, but I'm not a full time professional and can not fill his shoes. I do occasional professional jobs on tenor. I have not practiced bass for anywhere as long as I've practiced tenor. I have now had a few professional jobs also on bass The professional players I meet like the quality of my false tones and I'm getting closer to my false tones being as fluent as any other note on the horn. I do think that if I can do them with quality and make use of them in a professional context then others can too.

I have played a lot of bass trombone duets with Sven this summer and picked up more information that made me better. Sven is now in his mid 70 and has suffered from disease but he has come back as a player and sounds as the professional he is and when we play bass trombone duets he is much better than me even if I'm on a double and his false tones are working perfectly well, but of course he was even better in the 80ies. He was at one time one of the best in Europe. He is a very generous person and I'm learning much from every session.

This was a long tangent and now back to subject:

After analysing for leaks and errors of a horn. What is a good useful horn is up to the player to decide. I have been lucky with my eight Bach horns.

/Tom

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-09-29 9:23 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="94918" time="1569734172" user_id="7573">

Did you work on false tones on your 50B? For me false tones are much easier on small bore and medium bore horns. Somewhere I used to have a recording of myself playing a low C false tone on my Bach 36. Sounded pretty damn good. :shuffle:[/quote]

On all horns, but primarily on large tenor and bass. I can make them sound pretty good... But never good enough to pass for a real note with core than someone could be comfortable tuning to and playing next to.
</QUOTE>
I guess my question is why work on false tones on bass trombone? You've got valves. Or valve.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-09-29 10:20 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="94920" time="1569735690" user_id="3131">

On all horns, but primarily on large tenor and bass. I can make them sound pretty good... But never good enough to pass for a real note with core than someone could be comfortable tuning to and playing next to.[/quote]
I guess my question is why work on false tones on bass trombone? You've got valves. Or valve.
</QUOTE>

On a single valve bass, some slides are too short to get low C (and certainly too short to hit low B). We often need or want low F in 1st, so the attachment is often tuned a bit sharp resulting in even less territory for those notes.

Granted, with a double valve, even a dependent in F and flat E, you shouldn't need the falset tones, but sometimes having a low C in about 3rd or low B in about 4th can be a convenience.

Paul Tanner often talked about using falset tones as an exercise to improve playing.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-09-29 10:53 a.m.

Interesting. I've never played a single valve where I couldn't play a low C. Maybe a Low B but I wouldn't use a "false tone".

imsevimse · 2019-09-29 12:23 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Interesting. I've never played a single valve where I couldn't play a low C. Maybe a Low B but I wouldn't use a "false tone".[/quote]

It depends on how you tune your horn and what horn you use. If you tune the C on the trigger in tune then you have not the F on T1 because that F would then be too flat. If you tune F in tune on T1 then the C on T1 is sharp and you play that C off the bumper. The C on the far end might then not be at reach for different reasons, one is arm length and the other is slide length.This is easy to check if you play the higher octave C :bassclef: :space2: with the valve pressed at the far end of the slide. That higher octave is more revealing than the low octave and if you have to lip down that to be in tune youre low octave is also sharp Many players lip the low C in tune and make it in tune.

/Tom

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-29 12:25 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Interesting. I've never played a single valve where I couldn't play a low C. Maybe a Low B but I wouldn't use a "false tone".[/quote]

Exactly. And even playing low C I only do with E pull, which is another compromise.

My point to Tom (which has creeped pretty far from the rest of the thread) is that it's frankly a bit silly to say that you can play modern rep on a single and rely on false tones in the professional setting. I'm sure Sven sounded great on them, but the exception proves the rule here, I think.

The rest of us mere mortals need to use a double valve horn, and a good one, to get called back. There's no reason to make such a large compromise in today's world.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-09-29 12:28 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="94942" time="1569768811" user_id="7573">
Interesting. I've never played a single valve where I couldn't play a low C. Maybe a Low B but I wouldn't use a "false tone".[/quote]

Exactly. And even playing low C I only do with E pull, which is another compromise.

My point to Tom (which has creeped pretty far from the rest of the thread) is that it's frankly a bit silly to say that you can play modern rep on a single and rely on false tones in the professional setting. I'm sure Sven sounded great on them, but the exception proves the rule here, I think.

The rest of us mere mortals need to use a double valve horn, and a good one, to get called back. There's no reason to make such a large compromise in today's world.
</QUOTE>
You do your choices and I do mine. That's what's it is about

/Tom

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-09-29 12:32 p.m.

Here's another example where I can use a false tone. In the show Book of Mormon there's a tune called Turn it Off. About half way through the tune there's a fast switch to bass trombone where you have to play 2 short Low Cs. A quick bop bop if you will. My horns of choice on the National Tour are a SS2B and my trusty 180. I have great false tones on the 2B so I thought I'd try that little hit with the 2B. Worked great in that context. However if I were recording the show I'd always use the 180. There's usable and there's reality.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-09-29 12:43 p.m.

Or you could do the opposite and play the stuff around it on the 180. That would be much less of a compromise than playing false tones for an exposed section unless it was heavily orchestrated if I were the one playing the false tones.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-09-29 12:53 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Or you could do the opposite and play the stuff around it on the 180. That would be much less of a compromise than playing false tones for an exposed section unless it was heavily orchestrated if I were the one playing the false tones.[/quote]
Whatever works. If you can do false tones then you can, if you can't then you can't. It is really as simple as that.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-29 1:31 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="94956" time="1569775437" user_id="48">
Or you could do the opposite and play the stuff around it on the 180. That would be much less of a compromise than playing false tones for an exposed section unless it was heavily orchestrated if I were the one playing the false tones.[/quote]
Whatever works. If you can do false tones then you can, if you can't then you can't. It is really as simple as that.
</QUOTE>

I feel as if you may have missed the point. It's not as simple as that. The vast majority of the time, it's not kosher to play without your best sound.

Bill's example is a good one- sometimes you have no choice, and if you can make it happen in a live context and people won't notice, great. I've had to play a couple that way on large tenor. But I would never make a choice that would compromise the sound on a regular basis.

imsevimse · 2019-09-29 2:07 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="94958" time="1569776000" user_id="3173">

Whatever works. If you can do false tones then you can, if you can't then you can't. It is really as simple as that.[/quote]

I feel as if you may have missed the point. It's not as simple as that. The vast majority of the time, it's not kosher to play without your best sound.
</QUOTE>

"without your best sound"? That has never been my goal ever. "If you can play false tones" to me includes to do them with a good sound.

You are missing the point. There is a reason to use a single trigger because they sound different from a double. The reason is I want to play with the best possible sound I have. Make an adjustment to your expression: "It is kosher to play with my best sound". This is exactly why I'm playing the single and insist on getting my false tones work and be compatible to any other sound I do on the horn.

The point is you have a lighter sounding horn on all the other notes where you never need the second valve. With false tones you can also handle the few Cs and Bs that turn up. If you've read all my posts you will se I do not turn down double valves. I own and play them too. I'm sure there are new things written especially for the double valve in mind, maybe even with the double inline in mind. If such a part ever would turn up then I would use one of my doubles.

I mostly play bass in big bands and I will do a concert 2/10 at a theatre. The band is conducted by a legendary arranger over here who made several TV shows in the 80ies. I have brought different basses to every rehearsal up until now. I have always asked him what he thinks of the current bass that I'm playing. The horns I've tried up until now after summer are Olds P24G Bb/F/D/C, King duo Gravis 6b, Kanstul 1662, Conn 70h, Holton 169. There are a lot of both Cs and Bs. He has never once commented on my Cs and Bs as being bad or of a different sound and he knows every note because it is his arrangements we are playing. He has always said it sounds good BUT!!! (and this is why I continue with false tones) he said it was something special with the Conn 70h when I used that horn. He thought the section sound was better. Now this last rehearsal I brought that horn again and it was the same. He liked it the best. Now that 70h is what it is. It has only one valve and I use a lot of false notes to make it work. Sometimes when I have a long series of long loud Cs I have the time to pull the f-slide but sometimes I have no time for that.

The false tones have improved much lately in my playing and my confidence with them is therefore better. To me the sound I'm getting is my best sound meaning the sound I get would not be better if I had a double. According to the leader (who also is a trombone player) the section sound is better with me on that Conn 70h.

It took long time to learn. Until now I have never played them in public, but there has been a change lately and they have become a part of what I use. If it was a compromise in sound that could be heard then I would not do it at a concert. If they were not meant to be used as real notes then these notes would not have been of interest to me. I'm lucky to have heard Sven on these false notes at his prime time. I don't think I would have put this much effort to accomplish this if I hadn't.

You are right Sven is an exception, but a lot of fabulous people think and act out of the box. We can do our best and follow and learn from them. This was a known art in the 15 century but now almost forgotten.

If you consider the sound and playability of a single different from a double then you might see there is a place for the single in some contexts because of sound. If you consider the single as yesterdays sound and consider the only acceptable bass sound is the sound from a modern double then I understand there is no point to learn the false tones because then it is no point to play a single.

There is not much point to play false notes on a double, but even there I could see it could have its place in real fast playing in some odd phrase to reduce trigger work.

No, there is no reason to ever settle for a sound that is not your best sound. If the double is what you need to get your best sound then use it.

/Tom

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-09-29 7:13 p.m.

Honestly, I don't know how to respond. :idk:

I can see why Chris has thought about leaving before.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-09-29 7:22 p.m.

As always, do what works for you in a given situation. Why are you guys arguing about this anyway?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-09-29 7:26 p.m.

You two are from two different areas with two different requirements.

Burgerbob is trying to make it in Los Angeles in a highly competitive market with people looking for a particular sound of bass trombone playing -- one that most people can't meet trying to use falset tones to compensate for a single valve instrument.

Imsevimse is in Sweden, with a different market and a different sound concept. Svenne Larsson has paved the way to generate acceptance of use of falset tones and he can use them.

Let's understand that what is sauce for the goose may not be sauce for the gander in this case.

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2019-09-29 9:23 p.m.

A wild guess here on Bach's sound: can it be at least partially because the components are thicker? Not the bell, but thicker braces, thicker-walled tubing, more rigid brace design, etc.

I have noticed that all two of my school's Bach basses (a 50B from around 1980 and a 50B3L with a paper-thin bell from around 1990), and also a new 50AF3 I have tried in a shop, have a heavier slide and noticeably thicker slide braces comparing to my Yamaha 830. The 42Bs I have played have the same tendency comparing to my 882 as well, while the Getzens are not as obvious. I would say the sound of the 50B3L is "duller" comparing to the 830, but that is with the air optimized for the latter. I suppose if I push more, it would sound "chunkier" with "more color" than the 830.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-09-29 9:57 p.m.

Probably not the bracing. At least on the Yamaha, those appear to be wider but they're actually hollow on the inside and actually quite thin. But I could see the heaviness of the slide at least influencing the perception if not the sound.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-09-30 8:21 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]As always, do what works for you in a given situation. Why are you guys arguing about this anyway?[/quote]
Are they/we arguing?? I think we are just sharing thoughts. Doing something a different way and saying it works doesn't mean the other person is wrong, right?

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-09-30 4:40 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="GBP" post_id="94977" time="1569799344" user_id="3368">
As always, do what works for you in a given situation. Why are you guys arguing about this anyway?[/quote]
Are they/we arguing?? I think we are just sharing thoughts. Doing something a different way and saying it works doesn't mean the other person is wrong, right?
</QUOTE>

[quote="Burgerbob"]Honestly, I don't know how to respond. :idk:

I can see why Chris has thought about leaving before.[/quote]
Sharing usually doesn’t end up with a person saying this. Share do what works for you and keep practicing things you would like to do better.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-10-01 3:28 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="95000" time="1569846075" user_id="7573">

Are they/we arguing?? I think we are just sharing thoughts. Doing something a different way and saying it works doesn't mean the other person is wrong, right?[/quote]

[quote="Burgerbob"]Honestly, I don't know how to respond. :idk:

I can see why Chris has thought about leaving before.[/quote]
Sharing usually doesn’t end up with a person saying this. Share do what works for you and keep practicing things you would like to do better.
</QUOTE>
Good point!

/Tom

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-10-01 10:41 a.m.

To be fair, sharing also may involve providing a demonstration of a forgotten technique which is claimed to be substitutable for what is done presently.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-10-01 7:33 p.m.

Bud Parker, who used to play tenor in Kenton’s band, lives in the Seattle area. He plays bass these days because he doesn’t have to practice as much. I heard him play in a Kenton Christmas Concert that a local big band does. He played a single valve Conn. He sounded great. In that context, false tones worked for him. I have also heard him play in a big band that had more modern charts and requirements. In that situation he had his double valve bass. He really likes the sound he gets on his Conn and plays it whenever he can. He also knows it won’t work for everything he does.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-10-02 1:51 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]Bud Parker, who used to play tenor in Kenton’s band, lives in the Seattle area. He plays bass these days because he doesn’t have to practice as much. I heard him play in a Kenton Christmas Concert that a local big band does. He played a single valve Conn. He sounded great. In that context, false tones worked for him. I have also heard him play in a big band that had more modern charts and requirements. In that situation he had his double valve bass. He really likes the sound he gets on his Conn and plays it whenever he can. He also knows it won’t work for everything he does.[/quote]
:good: The right tool for the job, and he knows his tools. It means he knows what works best for HIM in those contexts.

/Tom

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-10-02 7:35 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]Bud Parker, who used to play tenor in Kenton’s band, lives in the Seattle area. He plays bass these days because he doesn’t have to practice as much. I heard him play in a Kenton Christmas Concert that a local big band does. He played a single valve Conn. He sounded great. In that context, false tones worked for him. I have also heard him play in a big band that had more modern charts and requirements. In that situation he had his double valve bass. He really likes the sound he gets on his Conn and plays it whenever he can. He also knows it won’t work for everything he does.[/quote]

This is good stuff. But he plays bass "because he doesn't have to practice as much"? What does this mean exactly?

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-10-02 7:50 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="GBP" post_id="95098" time="1569972831" user_id="3368">
Bud Parker, who used to play tenor in Kenton’s band, lives in the Seattle area. He plays bass these days because he doesn’t have to practice as much. I heard him play in a Kenton Christmas Concert that a local big band does. He played a single valve Conn. He sounded great. In that context, false tones worked for him. I have also heard him play in a big band that had more modern charts and requirements. In that situation he had his double valve bass. He really likes the sound he gets on his Conn and plays it whenever he can. He also knows it won’t work for everything he does.[/quote]

This is good stuff. But he plays bass "because he doesn't have to practice as much"? What does this mean exactly?
</QUOTE>

Playing lead takes a lot more face time.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-10-02 10:00 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="95122" time="1570016143" user_id="7573">

This is good stuff. But he plays bass "because he doesn't have to practice as much"? What does this mean exactly?[/quote]

Playing lead takes a lot more face time.
</QUOTE>
:???: :???: :???: :???: :???:

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2019-10-02 10:32 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="GBP" post_id="95126" time="1570017033" user_id="3368">

Playing lead takes a lot more face time.[/quote]
:???: :???: :???: :???: :???:
</QUOTE>
Come on now Bill.... don't pretend that you practice.... you know I don't

Chris

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-10-02 12:35 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="95133" time="1570024857" user_id="7573">

:???: :???: :???: :???: :???:[/quote]
Come on now Bill.... don't pretend that you practice.... you know I don't

Chris
</QUOTE>

:D

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2019-10-02 2:23 p.m.

[quote="GBP"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="95122" time="1570016143" user_id="7573">

This is good stuff. But he plays bass "because he doesn't have to practice as much"? What does this mean exactly?[/quote]

Playing lead takes a lot more face time.
</QUOTE>

Very much (respectfully) disagree with this. I think there are a lot of factors in this (obviously what your ‘main’ axe is makes a difference), but if I’m playing heavy lead or heavy bass I need at least two weeks of real dedicated practice to get in shape to where I have a decent shot of not embarrassing myself. Maybe ten days if I’m feeling lucky....I actually might need a bit less for lead, but that’s because I play more tenor than bass.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-10-02 3:19 p.m.

Now that this thread has gone completely off the tracks and ended in the inevitable, can we close it?

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-10-02 4:55 p.m.

Hey, don’t shoot the messenger. That’s what he told me. I am not going to argue with a guy that played in the Kenton band about how much time he need to keep his chops up.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2019-10-02 6:55 p.m.

Totally! Re read your entire post instead of just that one line that was quoted a few times, silly of me to reply before doing so. It’s interesting stuff! Didn’t mean to belittle the point either. For me to get in real shape to play bass takes a lot of time and effort, especially to get the air firing on all cylinders.

Anyway, back to Bachs....

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2019-10-02 11:02 p.m.

So a little help to back to the Bach bass.

My Bach bass

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyZ21qM3BjYjFIOEE/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyRTRoUkswbHM2RDQ/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyNzVKdFFwSWVrZ0k/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

Bass Bach 50 Corporation horn. Bb/F/C. The bell is very soft and thin. The horn plays like a dream. Dependent valves old school wrap. C section is larger bore than the F section. Custom open lead pipe made years ago. Stork 1S MP. This horn is 60years old. It was bought in the 70’s from Giardinelli in New York. The sales guy I worked with said the horn was originally a single valve Mount Vernon horn that Giardinelli sent to Bach to add a second valve since they had the horn in stock for years. There was a solder mark on the receiver where the original lever was. With the new valve the new style twin keys were put on the bell brace. The bell was stamped Elkhorn and Corporation at that time on an angle to the original engraving. There is no serial number; it was lost when the horn was reassembled. The bell is very soft and thin and plays like a dream. The second valve was set up as a dependent Bb/F/E. I had a new tuning slide made with larger tubing in C so now the horn is Bb/F/C. Low C with both valves is in first position and plays very open. Peddle BBb is in a long 3rd and plays easy too. Low B in two trigger long 2nd position is an easy hit. So in the key of C and the sharp keys the horn is easy to play as the positions are close to the same as with the F valve for C, B, Bb, and A.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2019-10-03 9:50 a.m.

[quote="whitbey"]So a little help to back to the Bach bass.

My Bach bass

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyZ21qM3BjYjFIOEE/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyRTRoUkswbHM2RDQ/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyNzVKdFFwSWVrZ0k/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

Bass Bach 50 Corporation horn. Bb/F/C. The bell is very soft and thin. The horn plays like a dream. Dependent valves old school wrap. C section is larger bore than the F section. Custom open lead pipe made years ago. Stork 1S MP. This horn is 60years old. It was bought in the 70’s from Giardinelli in New York. The sales guy I worked with said the horn was originally a single valve Mount Vernon horn that Giardinelli sent to Bach to add a second valve since they had the horn in stock for years. There was a solder mark on the receiver where the original lever was. With the new valve the new style twin keys were put on the bell brace. The bell was stamped Elkhorn and Corporation at that time on an angle to the original engraving. There is no serial number; it was lost when the horn was reassembled. The bell is very soft and thin and plays like a dream. The second valve was set up as a dependent Bb/F/E. I had a new tuning slide made with larger tubing in C so now the horn is Bb/F/C. Low C with both valves is in first position and plays very open. Peddle BBb is in a long 3rd and plays easy too. Low B in two trigger long 2nd position is an easy hit. So in the key of C and the sharp keys the horn is easy to play as the positions are close to the same as with the F valve for C, B, Bb, and A.[/quote]

I am imagining a long slide position change when playing low D's and Db's with the F-trigger and transitioning to low C's with both triggers. Am I correct?

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-10-03 10:46 a.m.

[quote="whitbey"]So a little help to back to the Bach bass.

My Bach bass

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyZ21qM3BjYjFIOEE/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyRTRoUkswbHM2RDQ/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyNzVKdFFwSWVrZ0k/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

Bass Bach 50 Corporation horn. Bb/F/C. The bell is very soft and thin. The horn plays like a dream. Dependent valves old school wrap. C section is larger bore than the F section. Custom open lead pipe made years ago. Stork 1S MP. This horn is 60years old. It was bought in the 70’s from Giardinelli in New York. The sales guy I worked with said the horn was originally a single valve Mount Vernon horn that Giardinelli sent to Bach to add a second valve since they had the horn in stock for years. There was a solder mark on the receiver where the original lever was. With the new valve the new style twin keys were put on the bell brace. The bell was stamped Elkhorn and Corporation at that time on an angle to the original engraving. There is no serial number; it was lost when the horn was reassembled. The bell is very soft and thin and plays like a dream. The second valve was set up as a dependent Bb/F/E. I had a new tuning slide made with larger tubing in C so now the horn is Bb/F/C. Low C with both valves is in first position and plays very open. Peddle BBb is in a long 3rd and plays easy too. Low B in two trigger long 2nd position is an easy hit. So in the key of C and the sharp keys the horn is easy to play as the positions are close to the same as with the F valve for C, B, Bb, and A.[/quote]

That's really neat. It looks like the lever for the second valve would take some getting used to.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-10-03 12:59 p.m.

That's an awesome 2nd lever design. I'd thought for a long time about how to get one on the index finger... that seems to do it rather eloquently.

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2019-10-03 1:51 p.m.

The lever does work pretty good. It was the side by side thing. After I dislocated my thumb side by side was too hard. I have large hands so the regular location for a second valve is useless for me. I have the curved brace on most of my slides to make the grip comfy.

Part of the trick of the second valve lever is to realize that the lever goes around the pivot point. So when the lever goes back that far around, it goes left right rather then fore and aft. The other thing is because it is long it needs to be long on the other side or the travel is long.

When I got this horn it was Bb/F/E. I bought the extended slides and got Eb. That was the end of the world back in the 70's. I remember seeing one guy that had three valves, all dependent. An E and an Eb. And both together was D. Sometime in the late 70's or maybe 1980 I decided that if I had a new tune slide made to get C, I could also have it made with larger tubing so it opened up the horn. Playing C in first position is well ingrained in my brain.

This is an old horn that has a great sound. It is very funky. Sometimes you have to ask nice for it to play. Moving the slide a lot is just part of playing trombone. Since I play a straight horn in orchestra a lot, I am used to moving the slide. It is nice to be able to pick it up like an old friend and make it sing. Try playing a bunch of stuff down two octaves, she will teach ya to blow so you play better. This horn is not about fancy alternate positions, just play her.

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-10-03 9:44 p.m.

That's a really interesting way to do that. I figured it has to move laterally when I looked at where it pivots. About how long is the travel?

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2019-10-03 11:43 p.m.

[quote="RConrad"]That's a really interesting way to do that. I figured it has to move laterally when I looked at where it pivots. About how long is the travel?[/quote]

A little too long. About an inch. But it moves very easy and lays with the natural finger bend with a normal hold on the horn.

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2019-10-03 11:52 p.m.

[quote="whitbey"]So a little help to back to the Bach bass.

My Bach bass

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyZ21qM3BjYjFIOEE/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyRTRoUkswbHM2RDQ/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyNzVKdFFwSWVrZ0k/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

Bass Bach 50 Corporation horn. Bb/F/C. The bell is very soft and thin. The horn plays like a dream. Dependent valves old school wrap. C section is larger bore than the F section. Custom open lead pipe made years ago. Stork 1S MP. This horn is 60years old. It was bought in the 70’s from Giardinelli in New York. The sales guy I worked with said the horn was originally a single valve Mount Vernon horn that Giardinelli sent to Bach to add a second valve since they had the horn in stock for years. There was a solder mark on the receiver where the original lever was. With the new valve the new style twin keys were put on the bell brace. The bell was stamped Elkhorn and Corporation at that time on an angle to the original engraving. There is no serial number; it was lost when the horn was reassembled. The bell is very soft and thin and plays like a dream. The second valve was set up as a dependent Bb/F/E. I had a new tuning slide made with larger tubing in C so now the horn is Bb/F/C. Low C with both valves is in first position and plays very open. Peddle BBb is in a long 3rd and plays easy too. Low B in two trigger long 2nd position is an easy hit. So in the key of C and the sharp keys the horn is easy to play as the positions are close to the same as with the F valve for C, B, Bb, and A.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing! Any chance of a a picture of the bell stamp?

Andrew

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-10-04 12:41 a.m.

[quote="whitbey"]A little too long. About an inch. But it moves very easy and lays with the natural finger bend with a normal hold on the horn.[/quote]

Yeah that could be rough if you need to use that valve quickly but at least there isn't a lot of resistance. Probably less taxing on your left hand in general that way? It's probably more natural feeling at least if you usually rest your index finger by the receiver.

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