Valve Trombone Acceptance
- Davidus1
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
What are your thoughts about the Valve trombone? I personally love to listen to a great valve trombone player. Loved the Russ Garcia recordings with Maynard on Valve Bone, Bob Brookmeyer, Rob McConnell and Boss Brass, Rich Matteson (Euph mostly). It seems that there are many people that don't like the valve bone much. What about you?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Valve trombones were essentially wiped from the Orchestral scene about 100 years ago. Only F and Gb valves are used.
For Jazz, anything goes. Slide trombones seem the most popular, but there have been great valve trombone players over the years. Juan Tizol was one.
I think thpe main reason valve trombone is not used much is that most of them have NO provision for modifying the intonation. Trumpets have saddles and triggers for the valve slides, but generally not valve trombones. This limits their ability to achieve the intonation inflection that is so common.
Valve trombones do allow for great rapidity and would be de rigeur for Be-Bop solos that are streams of notes. That's where the main value is as I see it.
For Jazz, anything goes. Slide trombones seem the most popular, but there have been great valve trombone players over the years. Juan Tizol was one.
I think thpe main reason valve trombone is not used much is that most of them have NO provision for modifying the intonation. Trumpets have saddles and triggers for the valve slides, but generally not valve trombones. This limits their ability to achieve the intonation inflection that is so common.
Valve trombones do allow for great rapidity and would be de rigeur for Be-Bop solos that are streams of notes. That's where the main value is as I see it.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
There are plenty of examples out there of valve trombone playing that should legitimize the instrument in anyone's eyes in my opinion. Juan Tizol's playing in the Ellington orchestra (as Bruce mentioned), for example. My personal favorite is [url=https://www.facebook.com/trombonesrco/videos/724010424317409/]this video from the Royal Concertgebouw trombones' Facebook page, which makes me sad that people don't use valve trombones on Italian opera repertoire actually written for them more often.
I think there are a few undeserved issues with the valve trombone that cause people to dislike it:
1) People think that it should sound exactly like a slide trombone. To me, the fact that it doesn't is what makes it legitimate. In the right hands it has a unique voice that is underutilized. At least one of Lou Dowdeswell's big band videos has one of the slide trombonists playing valve trombone for some solo passages. You couldn't get the same effect if he had just played it on his normal trombone. Played sweetly, it sounds like a flugelhorn down an octave.
2) Compared to slide trombone it's pretty ungainly to hold, but so are double-valve bass trombones and nobody has any problem with those. Since we can accept it sounds different from slide trombone, I don't think it needs to look like one either, and for this reason I think the valve trombone's compact brother, the marching trombone/flugabone, is a better design. They sound essentially the same but are much more comfortable to hold, not to mention being ultra compact. My flugabone is one of my favorite instruments to pull out and play.
3) Because of the valve trombone's disuse in professional settings (excluding the jazz soloists already mentioned in the OP), there are few valve trombones on the market (new or used, really) and most of them are student models. If the first valve trombone you try is a student model or marching instrument, you probably won't be super impressed. In my experience these kinds of instruments are extraordinarily mouthpiece sensitive. I tried a shallow mouthpiece in my flugabone when I first got it and it had an awful blat when you played anywhere above mezzo-forte, which I feel like is a sound often associated with all valve trombones. But I put in a deeper, V-cup tenor mouthpiece and it sings, and using a small shank ultra-deep euphonium mouthpiece sounds really nice too. I feel like a really nice, purpose-built performance instrument wouldn't have these issues and would be a real pleasure to play, especially if it was a larger bore than the tiny .481"-.485" that a lot of them are. If it wasn't hideously overpriced (looking at you, $3,500 Bach V16) I bet quite a few jazz trombonists and euphonium players would be interested in one. As is it's certainly a different sound than the piston bass trumpets some jazz trombonists double on.
I think there are a few undeserved issues with the valve trombone that cause people to dislike it:
1) People think that it should sound exactly like a slide trombone. To me, the fact that it doesn't is what makes it legitimate. In the right hands it has a unique voice that is underutilized. At least one of Lou Dowdeswell's big band videos has one of the slide trombonists playing valve trombone for some solo passages. You couldn't get the same effect if he had just played it on his normal trombone. Played sweetly, it sounds like a flugelhorn down an octave.
2) Compared to slide trombone it's pretty ungainly to hold, but so are double-valve bass trombones and nobody has any problem with those. Since we can accept it sounds different from slide trombone, I don't think it needs to look like one either, and for this reason I think the valve trombone's compact brother, the marching trombone/flugabone, is a better design. They sound essentially the same but are much more comfortable to hold, not to mention being ultra compact. My flugabone is one of my favorite instruments to pull out and play.
3) Because of the valve trombone's disuse in professional settings (excluding the jazz soloists already mentioned in the OP), there are few valve trombones on the market (new or used, really) and most of them are student models. If the first valve trombone you try is a student model or marching instrument, you probably won't be super impressed. In my experience these kinds of instruments are extraordinarily mouthpiece sensitive. I tried a shallow mouthpiece in my flugabone when I first got it and it had an awful blat when you played anywhere above mezzo-forte, which I feel like is a sound often associated with all valve trombones. But I put in a deeper, V-cup tenor mouthpiece and it sings, and using a small shank ultra-deep euphonium mouthpiece sounds really nice too. I feel like a really nice, purpose-built performance instrument wouldn't have these issues and would be a real pleasure to play, especially if it was a larger bore than the tiny .481"-.485" that a lot of them are. If it wasn't hideously overpriced (looking at you, $3,500 Bach V16) I bet quite a few jazz trombonists and euphonium players would be interested in one. As is it's certainly a different sound than the piston bass trumpets some jazz trombonists double on.
- Davidus1
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Valve trombones were essentially wiped from the Orchestral scene about 100 years ago. Only F and Gb valves are used.
For Jazz, anything goes. Slide trombones seem the most popular, but there have been great valve trombone players over the years. Juan Tizol was one.
I think thpe main reason valve trombone is not used much is that most of them have NO provision for modifying the intonation. Trumpets have saddles and triggers for the valve slides, but generally not valve trombones. This limits their ability to achieve the intonation inflection that is so common.
Valve trombones do allow for great rapidity and would be de rigeur for Be-Bop solos that are streams of notes. That's where the main value is as I see it.[/quote]
I should have clarified that I was more interested in uses for jazz which you covered with your post. You are correct about not having a provision for intonation. I'm sure getting a slide kicker put on a horn isn't necessarily cheap to have done but is almost a necessity. Thanks for the info!
For Jazz, anything goes. Slide trombones seem the most popular, but there have been great valve trombone players over the years. Juan Tizol was one.
I think thpe main reason valve trombone is not used much is that most of them have NO provision for modifying the intonation. Trumpets have saddles and triggers for the valve slides, but generally not valve trombones. This limits their ability to achieve the intonation inflection that is so common.
Valve trombones do allow for great rapidity and would be de rigeur for Be-Bop solos that are streams of notes. That's where the main value is as I see it.[/quote]
I should have clarified that I was more interested in uses for jazz which you covered with your post. You are correct about not having a provision for intonation. I'm sure getting a slide kicker put on a horn isn't necessarily cheap to have done but is almost a necessity. Thanks for the info!
- Davidus1
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]There are plenty of examples out there of valve trombone playing that should legitimize the instrument in anyone's eyes in my opinion. Juan Tizol's playing in the Ellington orchestra (as Bruce mentioned), for example. My personal favorite is [url=https://www.facebook.com/trombonesrco/videos/724010424317409/]this video from the Royal Concertgebouw trombones' Facebook page, which makes me sad that people don't use valve trombones on Italian opera repertoire actually written for them more often.
I think there are a few undeserved issues with the valve trombone that cause people to dislike it:
1) People think that it should sound exactly like a slide trombone. To me, the fact that it doesn't is what makes it legitimate. In the right hands it has a unique voice that is underutilized. At least one of Lou Dowdeswell's big band videos has one of the slide trombonists playing valve trombone for some solo passages. You couldn't get the same effect if he had just played it on his normal trombone. Played sweetly, it sounds like a flugelhorn down an octave.
2) Compared to slide trombone it's pretty ungainly to hold, but so are double-valve bass trombones and nobody has any problem with those. Since we can accept it sounds different from slide trombone, I don't think it needs to look like one either, and for this reason I think the valve trombone's compact brother, the marching trombone/flugabone, is a better design. They sound essentially the same but are much more comfortable to hold, not to mention being ultra compact. My flugabone is one of my favorite instruments to pull out and play.
3) Because of the valve trombone's disuse in professional settings (excluding the jazz soloists already mentioned in the OP), there are few valve trombones on the market (new or used, really) and most of them are student models. If the first valve trombone you try is a student model or marching instrument, you probably won't be super impressed. In my experience these kinds of instruments are extraordinarily mouthpiece sensitive. I tried a shallow mouthpiece in my flugabone when I first got it and it had an awful blat when you played anywhere above mezzo-forte, which I feel like is a sound often associated with all valve trombones. But I put in a deeper, V-cup tenor mouthpiece and it sings, and using a small shank ultra-deep euphonium mouthpiece sounds really nice too. I feel like a really nice, purpose-built performance instrument wouldn't have these issues and would be a real pleasure to play, especially if it was a larger bore than the tiny .481"-.485" that a lot of them are. If it wasn't hideously overpriced (looking at you, $3,500 Bach V16) I bet quite a few jazz trombonists and euphonium players would be interested in one. As is it's certainly a different sound than the piston bass trumpets some jazz trombonists double on.[/quote]
Completely agree with you about the different sound! Definitely different and I too like that about the valve bone. I wish King still made the Flugabone. I liked that instrument. Haven't played one in quite some time though. The offerings for valve trombones are lacking as you mention. Bach is most definitely highly overpriced. I wouldn't even consider paying for one for what they are asking! Thanks for the post and the information!
I think there are a few undeserved issues with the valve trombone that cause people to dislike it:
1) People think that it should sound exactly like a slide trombone. To me, the fact that it doesn't is what makes it legitimate. In the right hands it has a unique voice that is underutilized. At least one of Lou Dowdeswell's big band videos has one of the slide trombonists playing valve trombone for some solo passages. You couldn't get the same effect if he had just played it on his normal trombone. Played sweetly, it sounds like a flugelhorn down an octave.
2) Compared to slide trombone it's pretty ungainly to hold, but so are double-valve bass trombones and nobody has any problem with those. Since we can accept it sounds different from slide trombone, I don't think it needs to look like one either, and for this reason I think the valve trombone's compact brother, the marching trombone/flugabone, is a better design. They sound essentially the same but are much more comfortable to hold, not to mention being ultra compact. My flugabone is one of my favorite instruments to pull out and play.
3) Because of the valve trombone's disuse in professional settings (excluding the jazz soloists already mentioned in the OP), there are few valve trombones on the market (new or used, really) and most of them are student models. If the first valve trombone you try is a student model or marching instrument, you probably won't be super impressed. In my experience these kinds of instruments are extraordinarily mouthpiece sensitive. I tried a shallow mouthpiece in my flugabone when I first got it and it had an awful blat when you played anywhere above mezzo-forte, which I feel like is a sound often associated with all valve trombones. But I put in a deeper, V-cup tenor mouthpiece and it sings, and using a small shank ultra-deep euphonium mouthpiece sounds really nice too. I feel like a really nice, purpose-built performance instrument wouldn't have these issues and would be a real pleasure to play, especially if it was a larger bore than the tiny .481"-.485" that a lot of them are. If it wasn't hideously overpriced (looking at you, $3,500 Bach V16) I bet quite a few jazz trombonists and euphonium players would be interested in one. As is it's certainly a different sound than the piston bass trumpets some jazz trombonists double on.[/quote]
Completely agree with you about the different sound! Definitely different and I too like that about the valve bone. I wish King still made the Flugabone. I liked that instrument. Haven't played one in quite some time though. The offerings for valve trombones are lacking as you mention. Bach is most definitely highly overpriced. I wouldn't even consider paying for one for what they are asking! Thanks for the post and the information!
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
The King 3b is an acceptable valve trombone by me <EMOJI seq="1f60a" tseq="1f60a">😊</EMOJI>
I think I bought mine 30 years ago I bought it with an extra slide and used this as my main instrument while I was working as a music teacher on all brass.
The idea was I could use the valves when I had the trumpet students so they could be helped with fingering. After a while I began to carry a trumpet because they also needed to hear the right sound not to be confused.
The King 3b valve trombone I used was good though. I used it in a big band on third just to practice but the others asked me to use the slide instead. The valve section is banned from brass bands and symphony orchestras today. It had its place in the millitare windorchestra here next to trombones at one time, but the trombone-like instrument wanted back then was called "basun" and the parts they played was called Tenor. There could be two tenor parts (I-II) and three trombones in a Swedish Windorchestra and it was the Swedish "Ahlberg-Ohlsson" basun sound that was expected, and that is not the same sound as a modern valve-trombone.
I think the modern valve-trombone is rare today. I heard one with the "Bohuslän Big Band" 5-6 years ago when they played a Duke Ellington concert. One of the players used it for "Caravan".
The Swedish "basun" is heard in historical music only. There is a sextett-setting that still exists and is asked for at garden partys or other occasions where live background music is suitable with Eb-cornet, Bb-cornet, tenor horn in Eb, basun I-II, tuba and drums. It is seven musicians but it is called a sextett anyway. There are numrous (old from 17th century) to this date popular songs transposed for this setting and I guess thats why there are a few players who own and play them.
I own a basun from 1901 that belonged to my grandfather who was a musician. I play it sometimes for sentimental reasons. I play the same songs he used to play when I was young. I still remember the sound and the beautiful lip vibrato he had. I try to play the instrument just as he did. Unfortunately I only remember a few of the songs.
/Tom
I think I bought mine 30 years ago I bought it with an extra slide and used this as my main instrument while I was working as a music teacher on all brass.
The idea was I could use the valves when I had the trumpet students so they could be helped with fingering. After a while I began to carry a trumpet because they also needed to hear the right sound not to be confused.
The King 3b valve trombone I used was good though. I used it in a big band on third just to practice but the others asked me to use the slide instead. The valve section is banned from brass bands and symphony orchestras today. It had its place in the millitare windorchestra here next to trombones at one time, but the trombone-like instrument wanted back then was called "basun" and the parts they played was called Tenor. There could be two tenor parts (I-II) and three trombones in a Swedish Windorchestra and it was the Swedish "Ahlberg-Ohlsson" basun sound that was expected, and that is not the same sound as a modern valve-trombone.
I think the modern valve-trombone is rare today. I heard one with the "Bohuslän Big Band" 5-6 years ago when they played a Duke Ellington concert. One of the players used it for "Caravan".
The Swedish "basun" is heard in historical music only. There is a sextett-setting that still exists and is asked for at garden partys or other occasions where live background music is suitable with Eb-cornet, Bb-cornet, tenor horn in Eb, basun I-II, tuba and drums. It is seven musicians but it is called a sextett anyway. There are numrous (old from 17th century) to this date popular songs transposed for this setting and I guess thats why there are a few players who own and play them.
I own a basun from 1901 that belonged to my grandfather who was a musician. I play it sometimes for sentimental reasons. I play the same songs he used to play when I was young. I still remember the sound and the beautiful lip vibrato he had. I try to play the instrument just as he did. Unfortunately I only remember a few of the songs.
/Tom
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I bought a valve bone 40 years ago. I leaned valve fingerings better. I learned there was no way to get it in tune. And therefor also learned what the woodshed was for. A trumpet player made an offer for it and I leaned that was a good thing.
Later I developed neurological trouble and lost my fast tongue. So a few years ago after a divorce that allowed me to buy all the horns I wanted I took an older F attachment and had it reworked into a small bore jazz horn as a first valve. That is Ab by the way. With a first valve one can play quite fast. Use a slide with alternate positions and the sky is the limit. Also hardly anyone even notices the valve. It looks like an Edwards trombone.
I play an F scale fast with these fingerings. F in 1st, G in T-2nd, A in 2nd, Bb in T-3, C in 3, D in T-2, E in 2 and F a short T-2 then back down. Or slide from E to F in 1st if that is where you are going to land. The valve does the fast articulations and you just blow thought the horn. This kind of alternate position and valve can do most anything you can do with a 3 valve horn plus be a regular slide horn in tune.
Pictures of this horn are in my profile.
Later I developed neurological trouble and lost my fast tongue. So a few years ago after a divorce that allowed me to buy all the horns I wanted I took an older F attachment and had it reworked into a small bore jazz horn as a first valve. That is Ab by the way. With a first valve one can play quite fast. Use a slide with alternate positions and the sky is the limit. Also hardly anyone even notices the valve. It looks like an Edwards trombone.
I play an F scale fast with these fingerings. F in 1st, G in T-2nd, A in 2nd, Bb in T-3, C in 3, D in T-2, E in 2 and F a short T-2 then back down. Or slide from E to F in 1st if that is where you are going to land. The valve does the fast articulations and you just blow thought the horn. This kind of alternate position and valve can do most anything you can do with a 3 valve horn plus be a regular slide horn in tune.
Pictures of this horn are in my profile.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
Slide trombone and valve trombone are different instruments, they sound different, but sometimes there have been valve players doing good jobs in trombones sections. Bob Brookmeyer used a valve trombone with triggers on the valve slides for many years. Well the valve trombone wasn´t really wiped out hundred years ago in symphony orchestras everywhere. In Scandinavia the valve trombone was used in many orchestras, and today the valve trombone is used in the Royal Opera Hous in Stockholm when operas written by Verdi and other composers from that era. That makes the Italian operas from that age sound very much better in my ears. The valve trombone really has a voice of its own.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I've seen valve trombones used regularly in Italian community bands. So just move there... :)
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="sf105"]I've seen valve trombones used regularly in Italian community bands. So just move there... :)[/quote]
Also in Portuguese and Mexican bands.
Also in Portuguese and Mexican bands.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The valve trombonists in Mexican banda are insane (in a good way), as are the rest of the musicians. It's a really remarkable style of music.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]The valve trombonists in Mexican banda are insane (in a good way), as are the rest of the musicians. It's a really remarkable style of music.[/quote]
Agreed! If I’m in a down mood, I can listen to some banda music, which helps brighten the day. I’m often amazed at how tight these bands sound.
[quote="Finetales"]My personal favorite is[url=https://www.facebook.com/trombonesrco/videos/724010424317409/]this video from the Royal Concertgebouw trombones' Facebook page, which makes me sad that people don't use valve trombones on Italian opera repertoire actually written for them more often.[/quote]
What a testament to the valve trombone in orchestral music!
Agreed! If I’m in a down mood, I can listen to some banda music, which helps brighten the day. I’m often amazed at how tight these bands sound.
[quote="Finetales"]My personal favorite is
What a testament to the valve trombone in orchestral music!
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Interestingly, it is relatively frequent to hear Italian opera on valve trombones (not widespread but still, occasionally), but how often do we hear them on Bruckner? I think it's telling about how we still perceive valve trombones that orchestral players will use them for stuff that is seen as "lighter" music, but be much more reluctant to consider using them on the big serious germanic symphonic stuff.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
Yes that is correct. Lots of European music was written with the valve trombone in mind. The trombone was hold back in favor of the valved bone. It is less the 200 years ago, thanks to Anton Hansen, that the trombone started to come back in Sweden.
- Ndwood
- Posts: 66
- Joined: May 11, 2018
I think part of the difference regarding performance of Bruckner is that it’s not that uncommon for the trombonists in German and Austrian orchestras to perform on traditional instruments either from the time period or fairly similarly proportioned, and valve trombones in Germany, Austria, and Bohemia were built to similar proportions as slide trombones (right?). Valves can change the way way a horn plays but there are also a lot of other factors that are at least as important. One way I look at it is that for the most part valve trombones just stopped evolving after they fell out of fashion. Most have a bore of .500” or below because most slide trombones did as well.
But I also am curious about what causes a valved note to play different than an open note. I just picked up a Bohland & Fuchs bass trombone that I guess is from between 1904-1918. The open horn plays pretty well but the difference between open and valved notes is really audible and gets worse (of course) as you add valves; it’s already noticable with the first valve but 2+3 is pretty bad. Why do other valved instruments not suffer from this problem but the trombone does and are there ways to mitigate it? I’ve never had a chance to play one but everyone’s told me the Conn 90G doesn’t suffer frok these issues and sounds basically like the 8H it’s built around - why does it not have the same issues other valve trombones do?
But I also am curious about what causes a valved note to play different than an open note. I just picked up a Bohland & Fuchs bass trombone that I guess is from between 1904-1918. The open horn plays pretty well but the difference between open and valved notes is really audible and gets worse (of course) as you add valves; it’s already noticable with the first valve but 2+3 is pretty bad. Why do other valved instruments not suffer from this problem but the trombone does and are there ways to mitigate it? I’ve never had a chance to play one but everyone’s told me the Conn 90G doesn’t suffer frok these issues and sounds basically like the 8H it’s built around - why does it not have the same issues other valve trombones do?
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I wasn’t aware that there was a tradition of playing valve trombone in German classical music, esp. around the time of Bruckner. I suppose I’d assumed that bands used valve trombones for the most part, whereas orchestras used slide trombones.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Germany had mostly slide trombones as far as I know, but there were several decades after the invention of the valve where the valve trombone was the standard in much of Austria and Bohemia. The Vienna Court Opera (now State Opera) had valve trombones starting in the 1830's, and when they eventually switched back to slide trombones in 1883, they had trouble finding trombonists who were able to or willing to learn to play with a slide. Howard Weiner spoke of that a few times in the old forum and in publications. Also articles by Ken Shifrin IIRC. There was also a fairly thorough article in the HBSJ of last year on the subject specifically of Bruckner and valve trombones.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I would imagine that playing a King 3B valve trombone on Bruckner is no more historically correct soundwise (compared to a Romantic-era German valve trombone) than playing it on a King 3B slide trombone.
- Davidus1
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]The King 3b is an acceptable valve trombone by me <EMOJI seq="1f60a" tseq="1f60a">😊</EMOJI>
I think I bought mine 30 years ago I bought it with an extra slide and used this as my main instrument while I was working as a music teacher on all brass.
The idea was I could use the valves when I had the trumpet students so they could be helped with fingering. After a while I began to carry a trumpet because they also needed to hear the right sound not to be confused.
The King 3b valve trombone I used was good though. I used it in a big band on third just to practice but the others asked me to use the slide instead. The valve section is banned from brass bands and symphony orchestras today. It had its place in the millitare windorchestra here next to trombones at one time, but the trombone-like instrument wanted back then was called "basun" and the parts they played was called Tenor. There could be two tenor parts (I-II) and three trombones in a Swedish Windorchestra and it was the Swedish "Ahlberg-Ohlsson" basun sound that was expected, and that is not the same sound as a modern valve-trombone.
I think the modern valve-trombone is rare today. I heard one with the "Bohuslän Big Band" 5-6 years ago when they played a Duke Ellington concert. One of the players used it for "Caravan".
The Swedish "basun" is heard in historical music only. There is a sextett-setting that still exists and is asked for at garden partys or other occasions where live background music is suitable with Eb-cornet, Bb-cornet, tenor horn in Eb, basun I-II, tuba and drums. It is seven musicians but it is called a sextett anyway. There are numrous (old from 17th century) to this date popular songs transposed for this setting and I guess thats why there are a few players who own and play them.
I own a basun from 1901 that belonged to my grandfather who was a musician. I play it sometimes for sentimental reasons. I play the same songs he used to play when I was young. I still remember the sound and the beautiful lip vibrato he had. I try to play the instrument just as he did. Unfortunately I only remember a few of the songs.
/Tom[/quote]
Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.
I think I bought mine 30 years ago I bought it with an extra slide and used this as my main instrument while I was working as a music teacher on all brass.
The idea was I could use the valves when I had the trumpet students so they could be helped with fingering. After a while I began to carry a trumpet because they also needed to hear the right sound not to be confused.
The King 3b valve trombone I used was good though. I used it in a big band on third just to practice but the others asked me to use the slide instead. The valve section is banned from brass bands and symphony orchestras today. It had its place in the millitare windorchestra here next to trombones at one time, but the trombone-like instrument wanted back then was called "basun" and the parts they played was called Tenor. There could be two tenor parts (I-II) and three trombones in a Swedish Windorchestra and it was the Swedish "Ahlberg-Ohlsson" basun sound that was expected, and that is not the same sound as a modern valve-trombone.
I think the modern valve-trombone is rare today. I heard one with the "Bohuslän Big Band" 5-6 years ago when they played a Duke Ellington concert. One of the players used it for "Caravan".
The Swedish "basun" is heard in historical music only. There is a sextett-setting that still exists and is asked for at garden partys or other occasions where live background music is suitable with Eb-cornet, Bb-cornet, tenor horn in Eb, basun I-II, tuba and drums. It is seven musicians but it is called a sextett anyway. There are numrous (old from 17th century) to this date popular songs transposed for this setting and I guess thats why there are a few players who own and play them.
I own a basun from 1901 that belonged to my grandfather who was a musician. I play it sometimes for sentimental reasons. I play the same songs he used to play when I was young. I still remember the sound and the beautiful lip vibrato he had. I try to play the instrument just as he did. Unfortunately I only remember a few of the songs.
/Tom[/quote]
Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.
- Davidus1
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
[quote="sf105"]I've seen valve trombones used regularly in Italian community bands. So just move there... :)[/quote]
I'll pass on that. :biggrin:
I'll pass on that. :biggrin:
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Just out of curiosity, has anyone compared a piston valve to a rotary valve trombone? If so, how did they compare? I know that Červény and Mirafone and others still make rotary valve trombones in 3 and 4 valve configurations.
Tom, is a rotary valve trombone similar to the old basun?
Tom, is a rotary valve trombone similar to the old basun?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]Just out of curiosity, has anyone compared a piston valve to a rotary valve trombone? If so, how did they compare? I know that Červény and Mirafone and others still make rotary valve trombones in 3 and 4 valve configurations.
Tom, is a rotary valve trombone similar to the old basun?[/quote]
A piston trombone like the King 3b compared to a rotary valve trombone such as the Swedish "ventil-basun" are very different (read more for comparison) When it comes to a German rotary valve I think it looks more or less the same as an Swedish basun, but not absolutely sure since I don't know much of Miraphone and other brands, but if I compare a King 3b valve trombone to the Swedish made ventilbasun by Ahlberg & Ohlsson there are big differences.
The King 3b valve trombone is .481 with an 8" bell. Plays modern and (what I think) could blend with a trombone section in a big band in the right hands. It can be played both soft and loud. Both mellow and edgy. The big problem is the intonation. It is not as open as a valve-less . 481 horn and gets a little more harsh when pushed.
The Swedish Ahlberg Ohlsson "ventil basun" is soft. It can't be pushed that much so a modern big band forte will not work. To describe it's sound is difficult because there is no equivalent sound to point at but I think wide, soft, mellow and lyrical covers most of it. It is also often played with a constant vibrato. The same function as an euphonium, but not at all that full body of sound that can be deep and dominant. The basun is much more lyrical. The one I got from my grandfather from 1901 has a wide bell about 9". I have another one from about 1920 with a small bell that was called the solo model. For fingerings the 1st valve lowers a whole step. 2nd lowers one half step and the 3rd (look out!!!) lowers two whole steps. This gives a different fingering chart. I think it is the same on German instruments. Compared to a modern American valve trombone the 3rd valve lowers one and a half step.
The Swedish Ahlberg & Ohlsson company existed 1850-1959. Back in the old days the name basun could be used for both valve- and slide trombones as they were called "ventil-basun" and "drag-basun". My grandfather never used the word trombone. To him any trombone was called basun. Today most use the word basun as short for "ventil basun" and it is very rare to hear the word "drag basun". The latter is just called a trombone by all.
/Tom
Tom, is a rotary valve trombone similar to the old basun?[/quote]
A piston trombone like the King 3b compared to a rotary valve trombone such as the Swedish "ventil-basun" are very different (read more for comparison) When it comes to a German rotary valve I think it looks more or less the same as an Swedish basun, but not absolutely sure since I don't know much of Miraphone and other brands, but if I compare a King 3b valve trombone to the Swedish made ventilbasun by Ahlberg & Ohlsson there are big differences.
The King 3b valve trombone is .481 with an 8" bell. Plays modern and (what I think) could blend with a trombone section in a big band in the right hands. It can be played both soft and loud. Both mellow and edgy. The big problem is the intonation. It is not as open as a valve-less . 481 horn and gets a little more harsh when pushed.
The Swedish Ahlberg Ohlsson "ventil basun" is soft. It can't be pushed that much so a modern big band forte will not work. To describe it's sound is difficult because there is no equivalent sound to point at but I think wide, soft, mellow and lyrical covers most of it. It is also often played with a constant vibrato. The same function as an euphonium, but not at all that full body of sound that can be deep and dominant. The basun is much more lyrical. The one I got from my grandfather from 1901 has a wide bell about 9". I have another one from about 1920 with a small bell that was called the solo model. For fingerings the 1st valve lowers a whole step. 2nd lowers one half step and the 3rd (look out!!!) lowers two whole steps. This gives a different fingering chart. I think it is the same on German instruments. Compared to a modern American valve trombone the 3rd valve lowers one and a half step.
The Swedish Ahlberg & Ohlsson company existed 1850-1959. Back in the old days the name basun could be used for both valve- and slide trombones as they were called "ventil-basun" and "drag-basun". My grandfather never used the word trombone. To him any trombone was called basun. Today most use the word basun as short for "ventil basun" and it is very rare to hear the word "drag basun". The latter is just called a trombone by all.
/Tom
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Davidus1"]
Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.[/quote]
I have the Getzen valve and slide combination. I didn't find the valve side stuffy, I just found it impossible to hold. Maybe there's a way but I couldn't figure it out, got carpal tunnel symptoms in about ten minutes.
I looked for a way to use Ken's cantilever support, but the tubing at the balance point was so thin I was afraid to try attaching it.
Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.[/quote]
I have the Getzen valve and slide combination. I didn't find the valve side stuffy, I just found it impossible to hold. Maybe there's a way but I couldn't figure it out, got carpal tunnel symptoms in about ten minutes.
I looked for a way to use Ken's cantilever support, but the tubing at the balance point was so thin I was afraid to try attaching it.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I think you are supposed to hold a valve trombone much the way you would hold a trumpet. Both hands on the valve cluster. Elbows out.
If you try to hold it like a slide trombone you will be very uncomfortable since the valve section makes the instrument "nose heavy" relative to the bell brace.
If you try to hold it like a slide trombone you will be very uncomfortable since the valve section makes the instrument "nose heavy" relative to the bell brace.
- Davidus1
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Davidus1" post_id="61551" time="1529022844" user_id="3116">
Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.[/quote]
I have the Getzen valve and slide combination. I didn't find the valve side stuffy, I just found it impossible to hold. Maybe there's a way but I couldn't figure it out, got carpal tunnel symptoms in about ten minutes.
I looked for a way to use Ken's cantilever support, but the tubing at the balance point was so thin I was afraid to try attaching it.
</QUOTE>
You may be right about it not being stuffy. My approach back then was different to playing. I was a tuba and bass bone player and tended to pick up the valve bone and play it the same. That obviously is not a recipe for success. I've since changed my approach to bone vs tuba/bass bone and have improved. I agree with you. It was difficult to hold!
Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.[/quote]
I have the Getzen valve and slide combination. I didn't find the valve side stuffy, I just found it impossible to hold. Maybe there's a way but I couldn't figure it out, got carpal tunnel symptoms in about ten minutes.
I looked for a way to use Ken's cantilever support, but the tubing at the balance point was so thin I was afraid to try attaching it.
</QUOTE>
You may be right about it not being stuffy. My approach back then was different to playing. I was a tuba and bass bone player and tended to pick up the valve bone and play it the same. That obviously is not a recipe for success. I've since changed my approach to bone vs tuba/bass bone and have improved. I agree with you. It was difficult to hold!
- walldaja
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Jul 11, 2018
Most recent jazz player I've heard is Kiku Collins with a valve bone. She often doubles on trumpet / v-bone on her various CDs. One is "Here With Me". She has a real nice sound because she has mastered the horn as opposed to a person wanting an easy way to mimic a t-bone without learning the slide and techniques required. Her partner is an awesome t-bone player, David Gibson.
- Davidus1
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
Not familiar with her. I'll check it out. Thanks for the post.
- BrassedOn
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Aug 23, 2018
Of all, I think Bob Brookmeyer really laid it out there for valve trombonists.
He set the bar with Gerry Mulligan quartet. I think he played Conn valve trombone.
<YOUTUBE id="7o-pi8rs1Jk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o-pi8rs1Jk</YOUTUBE>
I need to get this Zoot Sims recording, a chorus at 3:20. <YOUTUBE id="7guMxVAf3Hg">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7guMxVAf3Hg</YOUTUBE>
And here at around 25:00 he kind a drifts from trumpetish phrasing to saxish phrasing. <YOUTUBE id="hSTbOCMf87w">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSTbOCMf87w</YOUTUBE>
Rob McConnell was totally on it. Here's a taste at 1:30 <YOUTUBE id="hfI3CIjV3ag">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfI3CIjV3ag.</YOUTUBE>
Raul de Souza is new to me. Maybe no problem with vbone!
<YOUTUBE id="IvmoeAcAIPM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvmoeAcAIPM</YOUTUBE>
The Getzen vb blew small for me. Rich Matteson had a custom Getzen, but I don't know if that was produced.
I think the 3B valve bone was best I've played.
I now have a Blessing marching trombone, which is basically a tightly wrapped valve bone. 8 inch bell Fits all my standard mutes unlike a few brands that have a larger bell on their marching brass. Took FOREVER to break in the valves but responds a bit more like my trombones. But yes could use a slide trigger.
There is always bass trumpet. Not for bone section, but could be fun in a combo. I've played a nice Bach bass trumpet but seemed a lot of resistance.
He set the bar with Gerry Mulligan quartet. I think he played Conn valve trombone.
<YOUTUBE id="7o-pi8rs1Jk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o-pi8rs1Jk</YOUTUBE>
I need to get this Zoot Sims recording, a chorus at 3:20. <YOUTUBE id="7guMxVAf3Hg">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7guMxVAf3Hg</YOUTUBE>
And here at around 25:00 he kind a drifts from trumpetish phrasing to saxish phrasing. <YOUTUBE id="hSTbOCMf87w">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSTbOCMf87w</YOUTUBE>
Rob McConnell was totally on it. Here's a taste at 1:30 <YOUTUBE id="hfI3CIjV3ag">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfI3CIjV3ag.</YOUTUBE>
Raul de Souza is new to me. Maybe no problem with vbone!
<YOUTUBE id="IvmoeAcAIPM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvmoeAcAIPM</YOUTUBE>
The Getzen vb blew small for me. Rich Matteson had a custom Getzen, but I don't know if that was produced.
I think the 3B valve bone was best I've played.
I now have a Blessing marching trombone, which is basically a tightly wrapped valve bone. 8 inch bell Fits all my standard mutes unlike a few brands that have a larger bell on their marching brass. Took FOREVER to break in the valves but responds a bit more like my trombones. But yes could use a slide trigger.
There is always bass trumpet. Not for bone section, but could be fun in a combo. I've played a nice Bach bass trumpet but seemed a lot of resistance.
- King2bPlus
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Apr 01, 2018
Mike Fahn is probably the best of the current valve trombonists. Plays the slide bone too. Has at least 2 CD's where he's the leader. Close Your Eyes.....and Listen(2002) and East and West(2006). Played w/Matt Catingub and Dick Berk (and others I'm sure) on the west coast. Been in NY for a long time now. Definitely worth a listen. Plays a Conn...think he's got 2 Conn valve bones.
- MusicParkRidge
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Apr 30, 2022
Concerning the difficulty and balance of holding a valve trombone: I hold my left hand in the same place I would when holding a slide trombone, just next to my left cheek, near the connector, thumb around the bell brace. This balances the front and back quite well. (The valves still make it a bit front-heavy.) Then the right hand is out in front at the valves, helping support the additional front weight. I find this balanced quite well, but it doesn't have side-by-side hands like a trumpet. (Nobody's ever told me that it looks funny, the way I hold it.)
Also, having the LH in my usual place keeps me from accidentally bashing in my teeth, forgetting that I'm not playing my normal slide horn. Just a thought.
Question for you all: are all valve trombones stuffy and hard to "slot the partials" as compared to a slide? Or is it just the cheapo model that I bought? I don't have any place to try other makes/models for comparison. I certainly don't want to buy another (Getzen/Holton/King/Bach) on eBay, simply to find out. Thank you for your replies! Rock on. -John S.
PS - I've played slide trombones my entire life, and the idea of simply moving a couple of fingers instead of my entire arm...I like being lazy! Kinda nice.
Also, having the LH in my usual place keeps me from accidentally bashing in my teeth, forgetting that I'm not playing my normal slide horn. Just a thought.
Question for you all: are all valve trombones stuffy and hard to "slot the partials" as compared to a slide? Or is it just the cheapo model that I bought? I don't have any place to try other makes/models for comparison. I certainly don't want to buy another (Getzen/Holton/King/Bach) on eBay, simply to find out. Thank you for your replies! Rock on. -John S.
PS - I've played slide trombones my entire life, and the idea of simply moving a couple of fingers instead of my entire arm...I like being lazy! Kinda nice.
- BrassedOn
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Aug 23, 2018
For jazz toe playing, I think the fact that there has been little in innovation in the valve bone is one of the big issues. There are a couple makes for custom flugabone/marching valve bone type instruments or rehabbing older Olds and Kings of that ilk. But otherwise, without something custom, not much new like…
Improved intonation
Improved balance
Tuning mech for 1st and 3rd
Bore size choices beyond .490 .500, tho I liked my Blessing/Olds marching valve bone at .508
improved projection. Not as loud as a slide, not even as a marching baritone or euphonium.
Improved blow. Because of the design, wrap, tight bends, the stuffiness of the flugabone/marching valve bone, and even traditional valve bone, compared to slide, detracted from the high and low ends of the instrument. Even a great like Brookmeyer on traditional valve bone does not use much of high and low end of what a comparable slide player might use these days. So this needs to be addressed.
Jazz is dead. Okay, not really, but not the presence (national stage, Grammys, radio play, TV, film soundtrack or feature) it has had if the past.
widened range of genre, beyond some jazz, banda, maybe salsa, and other rarer uses.
Of course there are individual horn and player exceptions, but few.
It also doesn’t help that there is lack of a “star” player dedicated to valves. There are awesome players out there, certainly, but at least in the US, there doesn’t seem to be room for more than a couple national level jazz trombone stars on slide Brookmeyer stepped into the Chet Baker chair easily with Mulligan’s quartet, was an excellent pianist, and a composer and arranger. Who’s your favorite these days that could attain that stature?
I had a Getzen valve bone, nice playing smallish bore, with fast top spring valves like a trumpet.
3B valve was the best, similar enough to my slide, a Conn was just okay (I think Conn was Brookmeyers choice)
Blessing marching valve trombone like Flugabone saw the most action by far, compact easy to bring to a jazz gig along with slide 3B, great flugal like tone for ballads and good enough valve action but not that fluid.
Improved intonation
Improved balance
Tuning mech for 1st and 3rd
Bore size choices beyond .490 .500, tho I liked my Blessing/Olds marching valve bone at .508
improved projection. Not as loud as a slide, not even as a marching baritone or euphonium.
Improved blow. Because of the design, wrap, tight bends, the stuffiness of the flugabone/marching valve bone, and even traditional valve bone, compared to slide, detracted from the high and low ends of the instrument. Even a great like Brookmeyer on traditional valve bone does not use much of high and low end of what a comparable slide player might use these days. So this needs to be addressed.
Jazz is dead. Okay, not really, but not the presence (national stage, Grammys, radio play, TV, film soundtrack or feature) it has had if the past.
widened range of genre, beyond some jazz, banda, maybe salsa, and other rarer uses.
Of course there are individual horn and player exceptions, but few.
It also doesn’t help that there is lack of a “star” player dedicated to valves. There are awesome players out there, certainly, but at least in the US, there doesn’t seem to be room for more than a couple national level jazz trombone stars on slide Brookmeyer stepped into the Chet Baker chair easily with Mulligan’s quartet, was an excellent pianist, and a composer and arranger. Who’s your favorite these days that could attain that stature?
I had a Getzen valve bone, nice playing smallish bore, with fast top spring valves like a trumpet.
3B valve was the best, similar enough to my slide, a Conn was just okay (I think Conn was Brookmeyers choice)
Blessing marching valve trombone like Flugabone saw the most action by far, compact easy to bring to a jazz gig along with slide 3B, great flugal like tone for ballads and good enough valve action but not that fluid.
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I`ve had the chance over the last couple years of playing with and getting know Trombonist Francois De Lima. Francois is from Brasil and comes to Sarasota, Fl to visit family. He`s a brilliant trombonist that happens to play a 3B Valve trombone.
<YOUTUBE id="W9z8ol1QLHQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9z8ol1QLHQ</YOUTUBE>
Barry Mosley is a Valve trombonist on the West Coast. Brookmeyer-ish in his playing. Barry had befriended Brookmeyer and was given one of Bob`s John Coffee mouthpieces He had it reproduced and let me tell you. It made my 2B valve open up and play like a completely different instrument
<YOUTUBE id="NHV2AMT9Syo">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHV2AMT9Syo</YOUTUBE>
And the Great Andy Hunter from the WDR Big Band
<YOUTUBE id="IwWPlUNsd2s">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWPlUNsd2s</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="W9z8ol1QLHQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9z8ol1QLHQ</YOUTUBE>
Barry Mosley is a Valve trombonist on the West Coast. Brookmeyer-ish in his playing. Barry had befriended Brookmeyer and was given one of Bob`s John Coffee mouthpieces He had it reproduced and let me tell you. It made my 2B valve open up and play like a completely different instrument
<YOUTUBE id="NHV2AMT9Syo">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHV2AMT9Syo</YOUTUBE>
And the Great Andy Hunter from the WDR Big Band
<YOUTUBE id="IwWPlUNsd2s">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWPlUNsd2s</YOUTUBE>
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Intonation is the big issue for me. I had a valve horn decades ago. I could not lip it far enough to get it in tune. I noticed euph players that had compensating valves play the low B in tune but high F and so on were always bad. Seemed like all the section was the same amount out of tune. I put a lever on my euph.
I think smaller bore horns might be easier to get in tune.
Can you play F in the staff and a high F in tune with a slide trombone without moving the slide and using a tuner? You might be ok. I can't, so I don't.
I used to see the Conn Trombonium. I sometime wonder about getting one and putting a lever on it for when you get into tight spots. But I only wonder as I am over it pretty quick.
I think smaller bore horns might be easier to get in tune.
Can you play F in the staff and a high F in tune with a slide trombone without moving the slide and using a tuner? You might be ok. I can't, so I don't.
I used to see the Conn Trombonium. I sometime wonder about getting one and putting a lever on it for when you get into tight spots. But I only wonder as I am over it pretty quick.
- s11141827
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Feb 08, 2023
Valve Trombones can be used in marching band 
& they can be wrapped up in the shape of a Flugelhorn hence the name "Flugabone" like this Kanstul. Juan Tizol was known for playing the Valve Trombone w/ the Duke Ellington Jazz Orchestra. Interestingly enough, a friend of mine on YouTube cleverly fixed the intonation problem by making Spring Loaded Triggers for the 1st & 3rd Valve Slides so that the Musician can get those notes to be in tune:<YOUTUBE id="Rw4hr1-4Bic">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw4hr1-4Bic</YOUTUBE> Valve Trombones should be used more often these days.
& they can be wrapped up in the shape of a Flugelhorn hence the name "Flugabone" like this Kanstul. Juan Tizol was known for playing the Valve Trombone w/ the Duke Ellington Jazz Orchestra. Interestingly enough, a friend of mine on YouTube cleverly fixed the intonation problem by making Spring Loaded Triggers for the 1st & 3rd Valve Slides so that the Musician can get those notes to be in tune:<YOUTUBE id="Rw4hr1-4Bic">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw4hr1-4Bic</YOUTUBE> Valve Trombones should be used more often these days.- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="s11141827"]Valve Trombones are commonly used in Marching Band ...[/quote]
Enough of these useless AI / troll postings, please.
Enough of these useless AI / troll postings, please.
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
I don't care much for the stuffy sound I hear from most valve bones. If I were to use one, my choice would be the Superbone used by James Morrison.
<YOUTUBE id="x-6nZZrs9Xk">https://youtu.be/x-6nZZrs9Xk</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="x-6nZZrs9Xk">https://youtu.be/x-6nZZrs9Xk</YOUTUBE>
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="officermayo"]I don't care much for the stuffy sound I hear from most valve bones. If I were to use one, my choice would be the Superbone used by James Morrison.
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="officermayo"]I don't care much for the stuffy sound I hear from most valve bones. If I were to use one, my choice would be the Superbone used by James Morrison.
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="213581" time="1687806627" user_id="12380">
I don't care much for the stuffy sound I hear from most valve bones. If I were to use one, my choice would be the Superbone used by James Morrison.
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
</QUOTE>
Gotta work on your flexibility, Brad!
I don't care much for the stuffy sound I hear from most valve bones. If I were to use one, my choice would be the Superbone used by James Morrison.
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
</QUOTE>
Gotta work on your flexibility, Brad!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Davidus1"]What about you?[/quote]
I do not accept the existence of valve trombones.
I do not accept the existence of valve trombones.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="213581" time="1687806627" user_id="12380">
I don't care much for the stuffy sound I hear from most valve bones. If I were to use one, my choice would be the Superbone used by James Morrison.
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
</QUOTE>
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS
I don't care much for the stuffy sound I hear from most valve bones. If I were to use one, my choice would be the Superbone used by James Morrison.
[/quote]
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:
</QUOTE>
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="213589" time="1687811230" user_id="4102">
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:[/quote]
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS
</QUOTE>
If it allowed me to play like James Morrison, I might be tempted to invest the 10 grand and risk the tendinitis! :idk:
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:[/quote]
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS
</QUOTE>
If it allowed me to play like James Morrison, I might be tempted to invest the 10 grand and risk the tendinitis! :idk:
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
Good point!
JS
JS
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="213589" time="1687811230" user_id="4102">
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:[/quote]
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS
</QUOTE>
That's $1000 per tendon.
I think I got tendonitis just looking at that. :horror:[/quote]
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS
</QUOTE>
That's $1000 per tendon.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="CalgaryTbone" post_id="213603" time="1687817841" user_id="3262">
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS[/quote]
That's $1000 per tendon.
</QUOTE>
Or perhaps $1,000 per don if there are ten dons?
(Sorry!)
Yeah, but you get to spend about $10,000 to get that tendinitis!
JS[/quote]
That's $1000 per tendon.
</QUOTE>
Or perhaps $1,000 per don if there are ten dons?
(Sorry!)
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
They're $6k.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
OK - that's almost $10K CDN.
JS
JS
- s11141827
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Feb 08, 2023
<YOUTUBE id="-eayG3xdCL0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eayG3xdCL0</YOUTUBE> How about this little guy? The Rarely heard before Soprano Valve Trombone.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="s11141827"]How about this little guy? The Rarely heard before Soprano Valve Trombone.[/quote]
Please go away!
Please go away!
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As I did on my euph, make a main tuning slide that moves so the whole of the horn can be tuned.
Or as I did on my jazz horn, one valve that is in Ab or the same as the first valve. The slide is the main thing.
Always seems difficult intonation with a valve bone.
Or as I did on my jazz horn, one valve that is in Ab or the same as the first valve. The slide is the main thing.
Always seems difficult intonation with a valve bone.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Speaking of slide+valves, it's interesting to me that superbones have full-length slides. You can't even reach 7th because 1st is so much farther away after the valve cluster, so really there's no point giving it a full length slide. I feel like a valve trombone with a short 4-position slide (like some Firebird trumpets) might be an interesting experiment. If you're taking a valves-first approach it's all you really need.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
If you have valves and a slide, something has to move to the left hand. I can't imagine using slide left handed, but as valves are kind of goofy for me anyway, left-handed valves don't seem so odd. Anyone go the other way?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I can play left handed just fine because I've worked at it and actually played gigs that way. It's hard to imagine anyone actually making a left-handed Superbone,.
The original Superbones were pretty stuffy feeling to me.
The original Superbones were pretty stuffy feeling to me.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
Adjusting to use the slide lefty is, I expect, easier than transferring valve technique to the left hand (unless you're also a French Horn player).
But superbones are silly gimmicks anyways, so it probably doesn't matter much which way you set it up.
But superbones are silly gimmicks anyways, so it probably doesn't matter much which way you set it up.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Having tried a superbone before I started playing French horn, in my experience putting the valves in the left hand is really not that big of a deal. Obviously you won't be immediately as comfortable as with your right hand, but your brain still knows what to do. Playing the slide with your left hand is much, much harder in my experience.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Playing left-handed is just as hard on the right hand as it is on the left. You discover how awkward it is holding the damn horn
- andym
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Dec 23, 2018
On the Boston Pops 4th of July performance, 2 euphoniumists from the Army Field Band came out and played with one of the players fingering both instruments. So apparently some people can play with either hand or both simultaneously!
- dwcarder
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Jun 27, 2023
Rob McConnell is one of the best valve trombonists I can think of, but I don't think there was any pretense that he was trying to sound like a slide trombone. Rob McConnell just sounds to me like ... Rob McConnell.
This page describes his equipment a bit:
http://www.trombone-usa.com/mcconnell_rob_bio.htm
"all of his Boss Brass recordings were done on a Conn 5G valve section modified onto an 8H bell. A beautiful set of 1st & 3rd slide tuning levers were custom designed & installed by Don Charlton of Toronto, probably in the late 1960's or early 1970's. These were later converted to quieter nylon ball & socket linkages by Toronto based repair technician Ron Partch in the early 1980's."
This page describes his equipment a bit:
http://www.trombone-usa.com/mcconnell_rob_bio.htm
"all of his Boss Brass recordings were done on a Conn 5G valve section modified onto an 8H bell. A beautiful set of 1st & 3rd slide tuning levers were custom designed & installed by Don Charlton of Toronto, probably in the late 1960's or early 1970's. These were later converted to quieter nylon ball & socket linkages by Toronto based repair technician Ron Partch in the early 1980's."
- Reedman1
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Apr 14, 2018
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]Having tried a superbone before I started playing French horn, in my experience putting the valves in the left hand is really not that big of a deal. Obviously you won't be immediately as comfortable as with your right hand, but your brain still knows what to do. Playing the slide with your left hand is much, much harder in my experience.[/quote]
Yeah, it's weird how that works. The only time I ever play left handed is when I have to pick up a French Horn I worked on and play test it. I don't have any trouble with the fingerings at all. They say the left side of your brain controls your right hand and vice versa, but obviously there's something going on that works for both sides. I'll have to try playing a slide left handed just for fun.
Yeah, it's weird how that works. The only time I ever play left handed is when I have to pick up a French Horn I worked on and play test it. I don't have any trouble with the fingerings at all. They say the left side of your brain controls your right hand and vice versa, but obviously there's something going on that works for both sides. I'll have to try playing a slide left handed just for fun.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Just because of this thread I decided to dig out my King 3B valve trombone to test a few mouthpieces. I tried my two different Kanstul "Alan Kaplan" mouthpieces I believe these both are close to a Bach 11C, except one of them is a little more open.
No, they didn't work very well in the low register. I then changed to my Yamaha "Nils Landgren" signature mouthpiece that I play most of the time. It is a tad larger. Nope, same there. My Hammond 13M, near a 6 1/2 AL? Yes, this works much better. Then I tried the Shires Marshal Gilkes signature I play on my small bore (.500) Lars Gerdt Bb/G. Yes, this is the best match for me. It seems a valve trombone needs a mouthpiece that is more deep and open to compensate for the smaller bore and the valves. No problem to play low with all three valves pressed on this rather deep mouthpiece. What mouthpiece do you use with a valve trombone?
/Tom
No, they didn't work very well in the low register. I then changed to my Yamaha "Nils Landgren" signature mouthpiece that I play most of the time. It is a tad larger. Nope, same there. My Hammond 13M, near a 6 1/2 AL? Yes, this works much better. Then I tried the Shires Marshal Gilkes signature I play on my small bore (.500) Lars Gerdt Bb/G. Yes, this is the best match for me. It seems a valve trombone needs a mouthpiece that is more deep and open to compensate for the smaller bore and the valves. No problem to play low with all three valves pressed on this rather deep mouthpiece. What mouthpiece do you use with a valve trombone?
/Tom
- s11141827
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Feb 08, 2023
Usually Valve Trombones take Standard Trombone mouthpieces. I found a link to a video of a guy who made Valve Slide triggers for Valve Trombone:<YOUTUBE id="Rw4hr1-4Bic">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw4hr1-4Bic</YOUTUBE> because the most common problem w/ valve trombones is that the 3rd Valve tends to play rather sharp.
- s11141827
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Feb 08, 2023
Valve Trombone valve slides have to be the same length as a baritone horn so that they play in tune.
- s11141827
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Feb 08, 2023
[quote="imsevimse"]Just because of this thread I decided to dig out my King 3B valve trombone to test a few mouthpieces. I tried my two different Kanstul "Alan Kaplan" mouthpieces I believe these both are close to a Bach 11C, except one of them is a little more open.
No, they didn't work very well in the low register. I then changed to my Yamaha "Nils Landgren" signature mouthpiece that I play most of the time. It is a tad larger. Nope, same there. My Hammond 13M, near a 6 1/2 AL? Yes, this works much better. Then I tried the Shires Marshal Gilkes signature I play on my small bore (.500) Lars Gerdt Bb/G. Yes, this is the best match for me. It seems a valve trombone needs a mouthpiece that is more deep and open to compensate for the smaller bore and the valves. No problem to play low with all three valves pressed on this rather deep mouthpiece. What mouthpiece do you use with a valve trombone?
/Tom[/quote]
I use a Yamaha Trombone/Baritone Horn Mouthpiece which is designed to work w/ valve trombones
No, they didn't work very well in the low register. I then changed to my Yamaha "Nils Landgren" signature mouthpiece that I play most of the time. It is a tad larger. Nope, same there. My Hammond 13M, near a 6 1/2 AL? Yes, this works much better. Then I tried the Shires Marshal Gilkes signature I play on my small bore (.500) Lars Gerdt Bb/G. Yes, this is the best match for me. It seems a valve trombone needs a mouthpiece that is more deep and open to compensate for the smaller bore and the valves. No problem to play low with all three valves pressed on this rather deep mouthpiece. What mouthpiece do you use with a valve trombone?
/Tom[/quote]
I use a Yamaha Trombone/Baritone Horn Mouthpiece which is designed to work w/ valve trombones
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Can you get into a uni music program majoring or otherwise on valve trombone?
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I thought the desire was to specialize in soprano valve trombone?
I don't think Yamaha makes an ideal mouthpiece for such an instrument. Perhaps AI can help with that.
:idk:
I don't think Yamaha makes an ideal mouthpiece for such an instrument. Perhaps AI can help with that.
:idk:
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
This video has 427m views. It features a valve trombone solo. Is there a video with that many views that features a slide trombone?
<YOUTUBE id="lZiaYpD9ZrI">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZiaYpD9ZrI</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="lZiaYpD9ZrI">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZiaYpD9ZrI</YOUTUBE>
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Please stop feeding the troll...[/quote]
:good:
:good:
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
You know, there are some great recordings of Urbie Green playing valve trombone too.