Ballroom Bells: advantages/disadvantages?
- johntarr
- Posts: 368
- Joined: May 07, 2018
I’ve read that a ballroom (setback) bell gives better acoustic feedback for the player and makes mute changes easier, so I’m wondering why most modern trombones have their bells set farther forward.
Any thoughts?
John
Any thoughts?
John
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Setback bells don't sell well because people are used to using the bell rim for a visual slide position.
I'm no virtuoso, and I haven't seen the setback bell to be an advantage. But others seem to feel so.
If you want to get into setback bells without going broke look for a Conn Ballroom model. The 0.500" bore TIS model 40H is pretty common and I haven't had to break the bank to own one.
In fact, I have one I'm not using (needs a bit of repair though) if you are anywhere near southern NH.
I'm no virtuoso, and I haven't seen the setback bell to be an advantage. But others seem to feel so.
If you want to get into setback bells without going broke look for a Conn Ballroom model. The 0.500" bore TIS model 40H is pretty common and I haven't had to break the bank to own one.
In fact, I have one I'm not using (needs a bit of repair though) if you are anywhere near southern NH.
- johntarr
- Posts: 368
- Joined: May 07, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Setback bells don't sell well because people are used to using the bell rim for a visual slide position.
I'm no virtuoso, and I haven't seen the setback bell to be an advantage. But others seem to feel so.
In fact, I have one I'm not using (needs a bit of repair though) if you are anywhere near southern NH.[/quote]
Well, I’m wondering what determined the standard. If all bells had been set back earlier, then that would’ve been the norm. How did we arrive at the standard we have today?
I’m nowhere near NH, but thanks anyway,
John
I'm no virtuoso, and I haven't seen the setback bell to be an advantage. But others seem to feel so.
In fact, I have one I'm not using (needs a bit of repair though) if you are anywhere near southern NH.[/quote]
Well, I’m wondering what determined the standard. If all bells had been set back earlier, then that would’ve been the norm. How did we arrive at the standard we have today?
I’m nowhere near NH, but thanks anyway,
John
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
Might take some google-fu, but there was a thread on here where a number of posters provided mouthpiece receiver to bell flare distance measurements on a variety of horns. There are probably some ballroom ones in there?
In general, Bachs and Williams models are on the shorter end, Kings the longer, Conn all over the place since there are a half-billion *H models.
In general, Bachs and Williams models are on the shorter end, Kings the longer, Conn all over the place since there are a half-billion *H models.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
I didn't realise there "was" a standard today for where the bell is located.
- HawaiiTromboneGuy
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
The bells on Williams definitely sit a lot closer to the face.
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
[quote="johntarr"]
If all bells had been set back earlier, then that would’ve been the norm. How did we arrive at the standard we have today?
John[/quote]
The bell spout would have had to been narrower?
If all bells had been set back earlier, then that would’ve been the norm. How did we arrive at the standard we have today?
John[/quote]
The bell spout would have had to been narrower?
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=2034
^^ that's (one of, at least) a thread I was referring to, check last couple posts for measurement data.
Conn Ballroom model 24H was measured as ~10.5" from receiver to bell flare, as are standard Bach and Williams. Conn and Kings standard models were about an inch longer. Owning a few Kings/Bachs and now a Williams, I don't think the bell setback matters as much as a number of other design aspects, unless you use the bell as a visual aid in tuning. But, I also don't have situations that call for mute changes frequently at all.
The real takeaway is there is no standard length / set back distance.
^^ that's (one of, at least) a thread I was referring to, check last couple posts for measurement data.
Conn Ballroom model 24H was measured as ~10.5" from receiver to bell flare, as are standard Bach and Williams. Conn and Kings standard models were about an inch longer. Owning a few Kings/Bachs and now a Williams, I don't think the bell setback matters as much as a number of other design aspects, unless you use the bell as a visual aid in tuning. But, I also don't have situations that call for mute changes frequently at all.
The real takeaway is there is no standard length / set back distance.
- RJMason
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
I like the set back bell. It may not matter as much to the audience but I tend to prefer the sound I hear from my Bach’s and Williams...maybe because they are closer to my ears!
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I never have used the bell as reference, because there are too many variations of trombones when it comes to intonation and bell distance. I do not look at the instrument at all when I play. No fingers to touch the bell either.
Advantage with a ball room model:
1. The advantage could be when using a plunger, because the shorter distance makes plunger work a lot easier, especially if you have short arms.
Disadvantage with a ball room model:
1. I know many tuch the bell when they play and I understand then this give you a problem when you change and the bell is located differently.
2. The disadvantage is sound from those old style TIS horns (Conn 40H and Conn 38H). A friend described them as having a "daft" sound. I think it comes from the heavier TIS slide and the more conical goose neck.
The Conn 24H is not a TIS and for me it plays with good sound. I guess if I ever would do acrobatics with a mute that horn would be a good choice.
/Tom
Advantage with a ball room model:
1. The advantage could be when using a plunger, because the shorter distance makes plunger work a lot easier, especially if you have short arms.
Disadvantage with a ball room model:
1. I know many tuch the bell when they play and I understand then this give you a problem when you change and the bell is located differently.
2. The disadvantage is sound from those old style TIS horns (Conn 40H and Conn 38H). A friend described them as having a "daft" sound. I think it comes from the heavier TIS slide and the more conical goose neck.
The Conn 24H is not a TIS and for me it plays with good sound. I guess if I ever would do acrobatics with a mute that horn would be a good choice.
/Tom
- Trav1s
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Jul 26, 2018
Another Conn 24H owner here and they are great horns. Essentially a 4H with the bell closer to the player and some other minor changes.
Also, the Conn 78H/79H have a setback bell and IIRC 72H have the setback bell. I do not have a problem with playing them but I can see how someone would of they used the bell as a reference point for positions.
Also, the Conn 78H/79H have a setback bell and IIRC 72H have the setback bell. I do not have a problem with playing them but I can see how someone would of they used the bell as a reference point for positions.
- TheSheriff
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Jul 16, 2018
[quote="johntarr"]I’ve read that a ballroom (setback) bell gives better acoustic feedback for the player and makes mute changes easier, so I’m wondering why most modern trombones have their bells set farther forward.
Any thoughts?
John[/quote]
..
I do not know why most horns are bell forward, I just know that I prefer a set back bell because they provide better feedback and better balance.
..
Any thoughts?
John[/quote]
..
I do not know why most horns are bell forward, I just know that I prefer a set back bell because they provide better feedback and better balance.
..
- UncleTsune
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Oct 15, 2019
Is 79h a setback bell?
I have both 24h and 79h.
Competed both, 79h bell is about 1” farther.
I also have a 62h, it’s also setback bell :idea:
[quote="Trav1s"]Also, the Conn 78H/79H have a setback bell[/quote]
UncleTsune
Conn 62h
Conn 79h
Conn 24h
I have both 24h and 79h.
Competed both, 79h bell is about 1” farther.
I also have a 62h, it’s also setback bell :idea:
[quote="Trav1s"]Also, the Conn 78H/79H have a setback bell[/quote]
UncleTsune
Conn 62h
Conn 79h
Conn 24h
- timbone
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Apr 30, 2018
I played a William and Wallace with a set back bell for many years- why- it played and sounded great! Short bells for me have no effect on slide position, but long bells have a strange effect altogether. I know someone (young) who developed carpal tunnel in the wrist from plunger use on standard length bells.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I don't like a nose heavy horn. It would seem a set back bell might balance better fore and aft. Side to side torque is still a problem.
- johntarr
- Posts: 368
- Joined: May 07, 2018
So it seems that the only possible disadvantage would be the visual reference to slide position.
Possible advantages could be better feedback, less weight forward (especially with a mute) and easier plunger use.
I wonder how makers determine the bell length to receiver distances in the first place.
Possible advantages could be better feedback, less weight forward (especially with a mute) and easier plunger use.
I wonder how makers determine the bell length to receiver distances in the first place.
- Trickysam
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Jan 27, 2022
The set back bell certainly is favourable if you are going to attempt to play plunger with the little mute underneath. The mute should sit back in the bell, and can be awkward to get out quickly when the bell is in a forward position such as on a 4H for instance. It is no coincidence that the plunger/mute meister Joe Nanton (1904 -1946) who pioneered its use in Ellington's band played a Conn 24H Artist Ballrom, and laterly a 24H Ballroom Special - both horns with the set back bell.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="johntarr"]...
I wonder how makers determine the bell length to receiver distances in the first place.[/quote]
(I know this is a pretty old question)
I'm pretty sure the bell position was established to provide as good a balance holding the instrument as possible.
The closer you move the bell to your face (i.e. setback) the back bow moves half as much rearward, meaning you need more wall clearance. Also, it makes the instrument more back-heavy.
Conversely, the further you move the bell from your face, the back bow moves half as much forward (i.e. needing less wall clearance) but the instrument becomes a lot more nose-heavy.
The Ballroom bell was intended to make a lot of mute changes easier. Mute changes tended to occur in Dance Band music, not classical. With a Ballroom bell, 3rd position is just a tad beyond the bell rim, whereas most conventional instruments have 3rd position just a tad in front of the bell rim. This shouldn't make a difference, but apparently it does.
I wonder how makers determine the bell length to receiver distances in the first place.[/quote]
(I know this is a pretty old question)
I'm pretty sure the bell position was established to provide as good a balance holding the instrument as possible.
The closer you move the bell to your face (i.e. setback) the back bow moves half as much rearward, meaning you need more wall clearance. Also, it makes the instrument more back-heavy.
Conversely, the further you move the bell from your face, the back bow moves half as much forward (i.e. needing less wall clearance) but the instrument becomes a lot more nose-heavy.
The Ballroom bell was intended to make a lot of mute changes easier. Mute changes tended to occur in Dance Band music, not classical. With a Ballroom bell, 3rd position is just a tad beyond the bell rim, whereas most conventional instruments have 3rd position just a tad in front of the bell rim. This shouldn't make a difference, but apparently it does.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
It's strange how no one talks about this with other brands. It's mentioned in this thread, but Bach small bores are also set-back bells. I play a 16M and a 3B, which are about as far apart as they could be- takes a bit of time to get used to that difference. Of course, 36 and above have bells far away again!
It's also a thing in bass land. Holtons have an inch less bell stem than Bachs. Conn 11X (10 inch bells) also have close bells. When I first got a professional Bach 50, I played twice as loud as I thought I was because the Holton 180 I had been playing previously was so much easier to hear.
I have one instrument that has a very, very far away bell- my contrabass is where perhaps 5th position would be on a Bb instrument. It makes it much harder to hear what you're doing in a large space. The feedback issue is very real.
It's also a thing in bass land. Holtons have an inch less bell stem than Bachs. Conn 11X (10 inch bells) also have close bells. When I first got a professional Bach 50, I played twice as loud as I thought I was because the Holton 180 I had been playing previously was so much easier to hear.
I have one instrument that has a very, very far away bell- my contrabass is where perhaps 5th position would be on a Bb instrument. It makes it much harder to hear what you're doing in a large space. The feedback issue is very real.