Finished Rochut, what's next?

JLivi · by **JLivi** » 2019-11-07 11:16 a.m.

I've been teaching privately for almost 10 years now, and for the first time I have a student that has gone through all of my worksheets (scales, patterns, lip slurs, range, modes, chromatic exercises) and he is really close to finishing the Rochut book. I've thought to start the Rochut book over again, but when went back to old etudes he pretty much remembers everything.

I feel he benefits more from working on etudes rather than technical patterns. So I'm trying to stay away from Brad Edwards Lip Slurs or Clarke Studies. We work on them, I just don't want to focus on them for an entire lesson, and make that the only thing I assign. We aren't in a financial position to be buying multiple books anyway.

My mind is going blank on what else is out there. There's got to be something. Something similar to Rochut's, but slightly different. Would it make sense to just get the 2nd Rochut book? I've never played out of that one. Is it good?

I also have the Tyrell Advanced Studies book and Selected Studies, but I don't really feel like working out of those. Any other ideas?

Thanks!

pompatus · by **pompatus** » 2019-11-07 11:20 a.m.

Clef studies? How old is the student?

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-11-07 11:43 a.m.

If it is legato phrasing you're looking to further explore, why not have him work the Cimera Phrasing Studies? They are short enough that you can play them complete as written, in tenor clef up and down the octave, and an octave above in one sitting. Cimera also wrote another book or two with more technical etudes.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-11-07 11:55 a.m.

There are 3 rochut books plus a couple with duets.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-11-07 1:23 p.m.

Encore publishes all 3 Rochut/Bordogni in one volume, with some tenor and, I think, alto clef, together with commentary.

Or start on repertoire. Rimsky, Hindemith, Serocki etc.

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2019-11-07 1:30 p.m.

There are nice French conservatory etudes in a similar style that aren't brutal like Bitsch or Boutry. The Busser and Pichaureau books are especially nice.

Second the clef studies as well. The Brad Edwards Trombone Craft is a really nice book where it covers skills in an excercise, but then follows it up with a few etudes. So it's a nice mix of both.

And there's also always a lot to be said for rochut down an octave, in tenor clef, and tenor down 2 octaves...

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2019-11-07 1:35 p.m.

I have been at it for 45 years and I don't think anyone ever "finishes" the Rochut book. You might play all the tunes, but there is always room for improvement. I usually play one or 2 a day still.

JLivi · by **JLivi** » 2019-11-07 2:30 p.m.

[quote="Mikebmiller"]I have been at it for 45 years and I don't think anyone ever "finishes" the Rochut book. You might play all the tunes, but there is always room for improvement. I usually play one or 2 a day still.[/quote]

I agree with this, but for the sake of keeping a high school student interested and practicing is more important than knit picking every little mistake. Especially since I know music as a profession isn’t in his future.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2019-11-07 2:43 p.m.

Have him play a concerto at his level and note the areas he has trouble in. Then prescribe exercises that will help him overcome the problem.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-11-07 3:23 p.m.

For a different idea, how about collecting the horn parts for some classic Chicago and Earth Wind & Fire tunes? Not everything has to be a vocal etude or a concerto, and some of the stuff in those charts are fun and challenging.

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2019-11-07 4:19 p.m.

I really like the Weissenborn bassoon studies. Public domain, too...

<LINK_TEXT text="https://imslp.org/wiki/Bassoon_Studies% ... 2C_Julius)">https://imslp.org/wiki/Bassoon_Studies%2C_Op.8_(Weissenborn%2C_Julius)</LINK_TEXT>

Andrew

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-11-07 4:43 p.m.

Have him do the Bordogni’s down an octave or in tenor clef. The slide patterns are different down an octave and the key is also different when done in tenor clef. His familiarity will help him with playing in different a different key.

Inspector71 · by **Inspector71** » 2019-11-07 5:02 p.m.

When I started my Masters with Don Knaub, his studio syllabus had the following for Graduate students:

"Anything that you haven't played plus anything you have, except this time played perfectly."

Like a previous posts states, you can always start over again in different registers, etc. I'm always amazed at what I missed when I go back and play things I've already worked on.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-11-07 6:12 p.m.

As others have suggested, and more: solo literature, excerpts, horn band charts, jazz tunes, and transcribe. There's so much that a working trombone player needs to know. How about some Tommy Dorsey, Jack Jenny, Buddy Morrow, etc?

And clefs... Should be fluent in at least 4 clefs if not 5. It shocks me now to think about this but my teacher had me working on the Blazhevich Clef Studies when I was in 8th grade.

Rochuts serve a purpose, but you will likely never get hired to play one in public. All the other things I mentioned - yes, you will, and I have.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-11-07 7:11 p.m.

When I was in 10th grade my teacher had me learn 7 clefs: Bass, Baritone, Treble, Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, Alto, and Tenor. He told me that was an easy way to transpose -- Suppose you have a chart written in Bb but the singer wants to sing it in F? Read Read Tenor clef! Yes, I was doing Blazhevich at the same time. I think there are much better clef studies out there for beginners now, though. Blazhevich is for after you have gotten your feet wet.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-11-07 9:38 p.m.

How about:

Guilmant, Morceau Symphonique

David, Concertino

Wagenseil, Concerto

Saint-Saens, Cavatine

Mackey, Harvest Concerto

Lindberg, Mandrake in the Corner

Grondahl, Concerto

Larsson, Concerto

Pryor, thought of love, blue bells, patriot, etc

Rusty · by **Rusty** » 2019-11-08 3:54 a.m.

The Brad Edwards Lip Slur Melodies book is great! Far more Etude like

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-11-08 4:12 a.m.

There's also something to be said for moving a student on to a more advanced teacher. It takes a lot of guts to tell a student or their parent "We've hit a point where they might need a different teacher, and here is why".

I'm not trying to say anything about you, or your teaching at all. That's just a question we all have to ask ourselves from time to time. Am I now holding this student back, for whatever reason.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2019-11-08 8:56 a.m.

Book 2 of Rochut is great; no reason not to get it and continue.

Blazhevich is also great - you might consider the Sequences in addition to the clef studies. There are lots more challenging etudes: Maxsted, various books by David Uber (I've never used those, but I believe Curtis Olsen had his students do them, and they are HARD).

All that said, it sounds like this student is ready for repertoire. Start going through the standards: Guilmant Morceau Symphonique, Serocki, the Grondahl Concerto, transcriptions like the Pergolesi Sinfonia, Telemann Sonata in F, etc., etc. Unaccompanied pieces like the Telemann Flute Fantasies, Bach Cello Suites...

smithr · by **smithr** » 2019-11-08 9:57 p.m.

When I was an undergrad my trombone professor (John Mead) would have me transpose certain ones in Rochut volume one. At the doctoral level Larry Campbell (LSU-Geaux Tigers) had me play volume one using tenor clef down the octave and alto clef likewise. Rode-Brown Caprices are fun to work on. I never grow tired of the Rochut Studies (all 3 volumes) The Mozart Horn concerti (2&4) make great studies for learning musical expression. I should mention I'm a bass trombonist.

PaulT · by **PaulT** » 2019-11-08 11:31 p.m.

I'm a trombone student. I'm taking lessons. I'm halfway through my Bordogni/Rochut book. I also used to be in high school. I know that if I were in high school again (somehow) and had just finished a series of lessons that were focused on Bordogni Etudes, the very very last thing I would want to do next would be go through another fat book filled with another bunch of etudes. (it's the last thing I would want to do now, as an old fart. One fat book of etudes is enough.)

Give the kid an etude break. He is young and has a lifetime of playing ahead of him... if an unending series of etude studies don't drive him up a wall and into the arms of a banjo or something. Do something else next. Work on some big band, some jazz, some show tunes. Teach him to play riffs off a chart. Get a good series on Jazz improv. Work on playing by ear and cooking up breaks on the fly.

There is a big wonderful world of trombone that exists outside etude studies. Get him ready to play in the pit for musicals, jam with of other horn players, play for free beer and fifty bucks a night with a polka band, jazz band, stage band, dixie band. If he doesn't know what he wants to do after college, let him know his talent with a horn could get him into a military band or, less of a commitment, a national guard band complete with education benefits and pocket money (which my kid is doing, and loves doing). Your student can have a lot of fun his entire life with that trombone, start having some of it now.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-11-09 10:02 a.m.

If I had a high school student who has played through that much of the Rochut I would probably be trying to get him or her performing a recital.

What are your student's trombone goals? If he's interested in orchestral trombone playing then maybe start learning excerpts and solo repertoire. If he's got an interest in jazz and commercial playing, start transcribing and working on improvisation.

Personally, I would encourage him to touch on a little bit of everything, even while focusing on whatever goals he is most interested in. I would say that most of my success as a musician is because I'm able to play in a wide variety of musical situations in a stylistically convincing manner.

Dave

RiyazAhuja · by **RiyazAhuja** » 2019-11-24 5:04 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]When I was in 10th grade my teacher had me learn 7 clefs: Bass, Baritone, Treble, Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, Alto, and Tenor. He told me that was an easy way to transpose -- Suppose you have a chart written in Bb but the singer wants to sing it in F? Read Read Tenor clef! Yes, I was doing Blazhevich at the same time. I think there are much better clef studies out there for beginners now, though. Blazhevich is for after you have gotten your feet wet.[/quote]

Did he give you a specific book to learn those clefs instead of Blazhevich or did you just learn over time through memory?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-11-24 5:50 p.m.

[quote="RiyazAhuja"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="97456" time="1573171905" user_id="53">
When I was in 10th grade my teacher had me learn 7 clefs: Bass, Baritone, Treble, Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, Alto, and Tenor. He told me that was an easy way to transpose -- Suppose you have a chart written in Bb but the singer wants to sing it in F? Read Read Tenor clef! Yes, I was doing Blazhevich at the same time. I think there are much better clef studies out there for beginners now, though. Blazhevich is for after you have gotten your feet wet.[/quote]

Did he give you a specific book to learn those clefs instead of Blazhevich or did you just learn over time through memory?
</QUOTE>

Over time. Wrote a lot of my own stuff (transposing into other clefs). The only books covering clefs cover Bass, Tenor, Alto, and transposing Treble.

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Finished Rochut, what's next?