Hagmann valve maintenance
- GMB
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Oct 18, 2019
I've recently gotten a horn with a Hagmann valve and having prior experience only with classic rotors I was wondering if there was anything I should look out for maintenance wise. Are [url=http://www.trombone.ch/EN/maintenance.html]these instructions good, and are either of these oils good for the Hagmann (the "Valve Oil" one I presume is OK) or should I get something else? Which part should be facing the ground when actioning the valve for lubrication, the "B" or "D"?
<ATTACHMENT filename="DSC_0082.JPG" index="0">[attachment=0]DSC_0082.JPG</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="DSC_0081.JPG" index="1">[attachment=1]DSC_0081.JPG</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="DSC_0082.JPG" index="0">
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Those instructions are pretty good, I would hold so that the opening "D" is facing up.
But I think it better to oil down the slide receiver while half-valving, but also oil the spindle "C" with a heavier oil.
Rotor and valve oil are pretty much the same thing.
Eric
But I think it better to oil down the slide receiver while half-valving, but also oil the spindle "C" with a heavier oil.
Rotor and valve oil are pretty much the same thing.
Eric
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I played with Hagmann valves for several years. The instructions work well (I mean, they're from the guy who invented the thing so they can't go wrong) if a bit simple. But if you use a bottle with a long tip (being very careful if the tip is metal) you can reach in to drop the oil directly in strategic places instead of just dumping it into the valve core like the instructions say. There are four holes in the inner casing/core that open to the outer casing; two big ones on the circumference between the ports, and two small ones at the back of the valve. Dropping the oil directly there is much more efficient. I also used to put a drop or two of oil on the edge of the casings so that it flows in-between the two casings. Follow the instructions on how to get the oil moving and spreading, and don't forget to put a drop of oil on the rubber O ring (otherwise it'll dry fast)
I have to disagree with Eric about using heavier oil at the spindle. My tech did that once and instructed me to do that and was adamant that they always put heavier oil on any valve spindles, but it made my valve noticeably slower. I asked Hagmann and he said to stop doing that and that best results would be attained using the same light oil as in the valve, as I had been doing before. The spindle is much longer and the space around it much tighter than other valve designs. My valve has always been faster when using the lighter oil, and always compared favourably to my colleagues' Hagmann where heavier oil was used at the spindle. Your experience may vary and you might want to try both versions (making sure you're always using compatible oils) but my experience was unequivocal.
Re : What oil to use: between the two you have, I would probably choose the piston valve oil - rotary oil is usually a little bit thicker and that valve really wants something light. But after experimenting with various piston and rotor oils (including T2 which is what Hagmann recommends), what gave me the best results was Hetmann 11 "Light Rotor" which is just between the viscosity of piston oil and most rotary oils.
I have to disagree with Eric about using heavier oil at the spindle. My tech did that once and instructed me to do that and was adamant that they always put heavier oil on any valve spindles, but it made my valve noticeably slower. I asked Hagmann and he said to stop doing that and that best results would be attained using the same light oil as in the valve, as I had been doing before. The spindle is much longer and the space around it much tighter than other valve designs. My valve has always been faster when using the lighter oil, and always compared favourably to my colleagues' Hagmann where heavier oil was used at the spindle. Your experience may vary and you might want to try both versions (making sure you're always using compatible oils) but my experience was unequivocal.
Re : What oil to use: between the two you have, I would probably choose the piston valve oil - rotary oil is usually a little bit thicker and that valve really wants something light. But after experimenting with various piston and rotor oils (including T2 which is what Hagmann recommends), what gave me the best results was Hetmann 11 "Light Rotor" which is just between the viscosity of piston oil and most rotary oils.
- FeelMyRath
- Posts: 81
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
I use Al Cass on my Hagmann. Rath say you can just use any old piston valve oil - mine has always been lightning fast following this advise, although the newer design ones are allegedly a bit more finicky.
- GMB
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Oct 18, 2019
Mine actually is kinda slow, the previous owner had it serviced recently but IDK what oil he used, I'll try the Hetmann 11.
- Carolus
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
The good thing about the Hagmann valve is that it is easy to service by yourself. It's fairly quick to loosen the Hex screw are remove the valve even without any further disassembly of levers etc. Sometimes the sluggishness is due to gunk inside the valve casing, that can be wiped off.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
They still do.
- GMB
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Oct 18, 2019
It's gotten better with Hetmann 11. It's not scratchy or anything, TBH it might just be that the spring is a little stronger than on my rotaries.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="GMB"]It's gotten better with Hetmann 11. It's not scratchy or anything, TBH it might just be that the spring is a little stronger than on my rotaries.[/quote]
Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves? Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?
Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves? Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?
- GMB
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Oct 18, 2019
[quote="WGWTR180"]Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?[/quote]
Only in the direction the spring pulls it. It would be slower/harder to push with the thumb which is my experience. Maybe the position also affects this, and maybe Hagmann's have a longer throw.
[quote="WGWTR180"]Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves?[/quote]
I will, although I'm afraid to mix oils before getting the valve serviced which I'm not sure is necessary.
Only in the direction the spring pulls it. It would be slower/harder to push with the thumb which is my experience. Maybe the position also affects this, and maybe Hagmann's have a longer throw.
[quote="WGWTR180"]Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves?[/quote]
I will, although I'm afraid to mix oils before getting the valve serviced which I'm not sure is necessary.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="GMB" post_id="101259" time="1577995028" user_id="7902">
It's gotten better with Hetmann 11. It's not scratchy or anything, TBH it might just be that the spring is a little stronger than on my rotaries.[/quote]
Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves? Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?
</QUOTE>
Interesting. I just went back to check if they still recommend T2 and the maintenance page is still the same as always. But I just noticed that their recommendations contradict themselves between the English and French version. The English version says only and any piston oil (and names various possibilities including Al Cass) whereas the French version says specifically that Tromba T2 seems to works well, and that whatever you use should neither be too thick (horn rotor oil) nor too thin (Al Cass).
So I guess Al Cass works on a Rath but not on a Courtois :shuffle:
No matter what you end up using, I would say no matter how much playing you do, you should definitely maintain a strict maintenance routine and oil the valve once to twice a week. It's a lot of surface available for oxydation and it happens fast if you're not diligent.
It's gotten better with Hetmann 11. It's not scratchy or anything, TBH it might just be that the spring is a little stronger than on my rotaries.[/quote]
Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves? Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?
</QUOTE>
Interesting. I just went back to check if they still recommend T2 and the maintenance page is still the same as always. But I just noticed that their recommendations contradict themselves between the English and French version. The English version says only and any piston oil (and names various possibilities including Al Cass) whereas the French version says specifically that Tromba T2 seems to works well, and that whatever you use should neither be too thick (horn rotor oil) nor too thin (Al Cass).
So I guess Al Cass works on a Rath but not on a Courtois :shuffle:
No matter what you end up using, I would say no matter how much playing you do, you should definitely maintain a strict maintenance routine and oil the valve once to twice a week. It's a lot of surface available for oxydation and it happens fast if you're not diligent.
- bbocaner
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
My Hagmanns are too sluggish with Hetmann 11 (light rotor oil). It really wants a fairly light piston oil. I'm not sure the "vintage" yamaha piston oil is the best either although I haven't tried it. The regular might be a better bet although the yamaha synthetics trend on the light side. I've been using Berp Bio-Oil Light #1 piston oil (which is actually on the heavier side for a "light" oil) with really good results. I find using something different on the spindle like I would on a rotor doesn't work well on the Hagmann because that oil migrates so easily into the rest of the valve.
Also, unless you take apart the valve and clean it out completely, it does take quite a while to flush out all the old heavier oil with a new lighter oil application.
Also, unless you take apart the valve and clean it out completely, it does take quite a while to flush out all the old heavier oil with a new lighter oil application.
- MrDillon
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
My tech recommended Hetman #1 Light Piston for inside the valve and Hetman #13 Light Bearing and Linkage for the spindle which works pretty well. Tromba T2 never worked well on mine for some reason.
- Carolus
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
After a recommendation by a bass trombone playing tech I switched to Yamaha synthetic for my Hagmanns. It works really well, much better than what I used before.
- Liri79
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Aug 09, 2023
How should lubrificate infinity axial flow for Bach 42AF?which is the recomadation oil for infinity axial flow valve?
- Gfunk
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Jan 10, 2022
I know this thread is old, but I’m pretty sure there was a PDF somewhere (in the OP?) that had actually visual instructions for maintainable and disassembly. I’ve looked on the Hagmann website and can’t seem to find it there either. Anyone here know where to find it?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Gfunk"]I know this thread is old, but I’m pretty sure there was a PDF somewhere (in the OP?) that had actually visual instructions for maintainable and disassembly. I’ve looked on the Hagmann website and can’t seem to find it there either. Anyone here know where to find it?[/quote]
Was it this? <LINK_TEXT text="https://rathtrombones.com/assets/Upload ... -Guide.pdf">https://rathtrombones.com/assets/Uploads/Michael-Rath-Trombone-Maintenance-Guide.pdf</LINK_TEXT>
Was it this? <LINK_TEXT text="https://rathtrombones.com/assets/Upload ... -Guide.pdf">https://rathtrombones.com/assets/Uploads/Michael-Rath-Trombone-Maintenance-Guide.pdf</LINK_TEXT>
- Gfunk
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Jan 10, 2022
[quote="brassmedic"]Was it this? <LINK_TEXT text="https://rathtrombones.com/assets/Upload ... -Guide.pdf">https://rathtrombones.com/assets/Uploads/Michael-Rath-Trombone-Maintenance-Guide.pdf</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
No, but the visual on page 10 is from it. Or at least from what I remember. I could’ve swore I found it through Trombonechat too, but after over half an hour of searching I couldn’t find it.
I feel very comfortable taking apart my Hagmann valve, I’m really trying to find that doc to share with someone who I can’t show in person. I found it helpful for understanding the valve.
No, but the visual on page 10 is from it. Or at least from what I remember. I could’ve swore I found it through Trombonechat too, but after over half an hour of searching I couldn’t find it.
I feel very comfortable taking apart my Hagmann valve, I’m really trying to find that doc to share with someone who I can’t show in person. I found it helpful for understanding the valve.
- jjenkins
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
I use Yamaha synthetic on my Hagmanns. It works very well. You should avoid Al Cass, Blue Juice, and other petroleum distillates, per the Hagmann website. Yes, they still recommend La Tromba, but any thin synthetic oil will do.
The recommended size and type from Hagmann is 5mm nitrile bumpers for bumper replacement.They still may need to be trimmed some, however, but valve alignment should always be checked, regardless.
The recommended size and type from Hagmann is 5mm nitrile bumpers for bumper replacement.They still may need to be trimmed some, however, but valve alignment should always be checked, regardless.
- LetItSlide
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Sep 01, 2022
Al Cass in the big openings at half-valve with the valve case cap off, and some on the outside moving parts.
Al Cass not recommended, ok. It’s what I use.
Al Cass not recommended, ok. It’s what I use.
- jjenkins
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
[quote="LetItSlide"]Al Cass in the big openings at half-valve with the valve case cap off, and some on the outside moving parts.
Al Cass not recommended, ok. It’s what I use.[/quote]
Sure. Use what you've got!
The concern, from what I surmise, is that petroleum distillates are volatile, and thus evaporate quickly leaving the valve with less protection. But if you oil your valves regularly, I imagine there won't be an issue.
Al Cass not recommended, ok. It’s what I use.[/quote]
Sure. Use what you've got!
The concern, from what I surmise, is that petroleum distillates are volatile, and thus evaporate quickly leaving the valve with less protection. But if you oil your valves regularly, I imagine there won't be an issue.
- LetItSlide
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Sep 01, 2022
I also think the petroleum is not friendly to the rubber gasket.