Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-12-12 2:35 p.m.

Let me start by saying I'm sure this has been discussed before, although after a good half hour of dedicated searching I couldn't find anything, so I've come to y'all. If there's a good article or thread (s) on this please direct me to said articles or threads.

Now to the question:

I'm a college student, and my focus instrument is technically tenor trombone. I play all my solos and juries on tenor, and consequently it's by far the instrument that I bring to my lessons on the majority. I play with a Hammond 12ml for this stuff, and a wick 5abl in ensembles. However in all my ensembles, I play bass trombone on a Bach 1.5g. As a result, I'm usually playing on both instruments daily, and occasionally switching between during my daily practice sessions. I recently read an article called "mouthpiece meditations" on trombone.org where Larry Roth mentioned people using "one mouthpiece for all their needs" or something similar to that. This makes me wonder, what dangers do I face with switching face setups so frequently? Am I stunting my range/flexibility growth as a young student? Is this something that "works if it works for me"? Am I thinking about all this too much? My teacher Jaime Morales-Matos encourages my flexibility in pursuing both instruments, I'm just curious as to what your opinions are as a mass of people that have undoubtedly experienced this thoroughly. Thanks a ton guys.

-Austin

Also, I believe I read it in a Doug Yeo article recently that bass bone has the 2nd highest flow rate in an orchestra behind flute (including tuba)? Some of these excerpts make me believe it!

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-12-12 2:47 p.m.

I don't have any idea how this affects you as a student. All I know is my own experience.

By switching often, my range on either isn't as good as it could be if I focused on one. But I do get a greater variety of opportunities.

If you're looking for Joe Alessi's job, I'd recommend stop doubling and focus. If you want to be a teacher or a well rounded freelance, keep doubling.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-12-12 2:51 p.m.

There's danger in it if you are playing them badly, sure. And having a split focus will always mean you're not putting the full time into one instrument.

But if you're playing with good habits and making good sounds on each, and you're ok with not having a laser focus on one instrument, then it's fine.

I find myself, as a doubler for basically as long as I've played seriously, to be a bit of an oddball in the professional world... lots of people play only 1 thing their entire lives until they necessarily have to double later, and have to spend a bunch of time learning something new at an older age. Perhaps doing it from earlier is an advantage, I'm not sure.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-12-12 3:54 p.m.

There are plenty of examples of brass players who double and are top-notch players on every instrument they play on. I think that people who see concerns about range/tone/etc. with doubling most often simply don't practice their doubles the way they should if they want to really make use of the double. Less often, there really is some physical reason preventing them from doubling effectively, and that is usually solved by a lesson or two with an embouchure expert.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-12-12 3:56 p.m.

Another thought: I double myself without issues (aside from dedicating time to practicing) but from what I've seen of myself and friends, the main reason doubling doesn't happen more isn't fear from technique and stuff like that, but simple economics: paying for instruments. I'd love to be able to afford to buy a good tuba, euphonium, baritone, alto horn, etc.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-12-12 5:16 p.m.

I’ve wondered about any association between using multiple mpcs and focal dystonia of the embouchure muscles.

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-12-12 5:47 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]If you're looking for Joe Alessi's job, I'd recommend stop doubling and focus. If you want to be a teacher or a well rounded freelance, keep doubling.[/quote]

I love this. I'm definitely gunning to be a teacher and freelancer. My dream is to teach kids music.

[quote="Burgerbob"]There's danger in it if you are playing them badly, sure. And having a split focus will always mean you're not putting the full time into one instrument.

But if you're playing with good habits and making good sounds on each, and you're ok with not having a laser focus on one instrument, then it's fine.

I find myself, as a doubler for basically as long as I've played seriously, to be a bit of an oddball in the professional world... lots of people play only 1 thing their entire lives until they necessarily have to double later, and have to spend a bunch of time learning something new at an older age. Perhaps doing it from earlier is an advantage, I'm not sure.[/quote]

That's exactly my teacher's idea behind it, to become a more "useful" trombonist by being well versed in both tenor and bass bone.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]There are plenty of examples of brass players who double and are top-notch players on every instrument they play on. I think that people who see concerns about range/tone/etc. with doubling most often simply don't practice their doubles the way they should if they want to really make use of the double. Less often, there really is some physical reason preventing them from doubling effectively, and that is usually solved by a lesson or two with an embouchure expert.[/quote]

Very interesting. I will be sure to have a conversation at the DE table at Midwest this year about playing on 2 quite contrasting mpc sizes regularly.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]Another thought: I double myself without issues (aside from dedicating time to practicing) but from what I've seen of myself and friends, the main reason doubling doesn't happen more isn't fear from technique and stuff like that, but simple economics: paying for instruments. I'd love to be able to afford to buy a good tuba, euphonium, baritone, alto horn, etc.[/quote]

For sure a concern I face. I'm playing on my own Wessex bass mainly, however the school owns a new dependent Bach 50 and an older Bach 50 with hagmanns so I have a taste of the "good life", whatever that entails...

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2019-12-12 5:56 p.m.

IMO practicing enough to stay competent on each instrument should keep you in pretty good shape. The downside is endurance; at what point do you overextend yourself by increasing your playing time each day?

GMB · by **GMB** » 2019-12-12 6:00 p.m.

It's hard to say, but if you're mature enough to avoid bad habits I don't think there are any inherent dangers. About a year ago I switched solely to bass for about 6 months. Playing tenor after that was very weird (and very bad). Now I can play both well and don't even have a problem switching during the same practice session, which is to say I've gotten a good feel for both mouthpieces. Obviously not as well as if I just focused on one, but I'm more sure every day that that's because of the time issue rather than changing mpc size. My range doesn't suffer and I think my endurance on both has only increased just because of how much I've been playing and practicing this year... but my double-trigger technique would obviously be better if I spent more time on it rather than playing/practicing tenor as well. I play a Bach 4G on tenor and Doug Yeo Signature on bass (though started on a Wick 0AL which is about a 1.25g diameter).

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-12-12 6:07 p.m.

A 1.5G sized rim is not unheard of on tenor...

If you're already planning on talking to Doug... You should try a 1.5g sized rim on a tenor cup!

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2019-12-12 6:12 p.m.

This stopped being an issue for me when my embouchure formation became independent of the rim. I make my embouchure, anchor in the same place every time (regardless of rim size), and just play (in that order).

A lot of people put the rim on their face, THEN form their embouchure. If youre stretching your lips against the edges of the rim or pressing a lot, this is you.

I suppose this is what the freebuzzing crowd is talking about, but ive never found much use in doing it without having the rim in place once the air starts flowing.

Ive found that there are few things as beneficial to my playing as doubling on alto, other tenors, bass, euph, and others.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-12-12 6:25 p.m.

There are already a lot of good and valuable comments here. See you at MidWest.

As Kris said in the previous comment, when your embouchure formation becomes independent of the rim, doubling is less of a problem and can be beneficial.

If you're doing everything correctly for your particular face. That's really what's important.

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-12-12 8:21 p.m.

Looking forward to Midwest. Great idea, Harrison. I'll definitely give it a try next week.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]This stopped being an issue for me when my embouchure formation became independent of the rim. I make my embouchure, anchor in the same place every time (regardless of rim size), and just play (in that order).

A lot of people put the rim on their face, THEN form their embouchure. If youre stretching your lips against the edges of the rim or pressing a lot, this is you.

I suppose this is what the freebuzzing crowd is talking about, but ive never found much use in doing it without having the rim in place once the air starts flowing.

Ive found that there are few things as beneficial to my playing as doubling on alto, other tenors, bass, euph, and others.[/quote]

My teacher talks about this a ton, "having a set embouchure before the horn touches your face." I do have some practicing to do with this. I've had problems with pressing for years. College has really started to help me with this though.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2019-12-12 8:34 p.m.

Don't overthink it. I played a .547 large bore tenor with a 5G in high school and college. I sometimes got put on bass on big band and was able to hold my own down to a pedal G, and if put on lead could handle that too. I picked up a bass bone in my early 30s, went with a 1.5 G after trying larger pieces. I my primary horn now is a .508 small bore tenor using a DE setup suggested by Doug himself, similar to a Bach 5. I tried smaller mouthpieces, but they didn't work for me, even on my King 2B peashooters, but this one does even playing lead tbone in a big band. I guess I'm lucky in that I can switch from one horn/mp to another with only a small (few minutes?) adjustment period. Doug gives Skype lessons and might be able to suggest combos that will make the switch from one to the other easier for you.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2019-12-13 12:59 a.m.

There are more great bass trombone players doubling on tenors than not... Charlie Vernon, Jim Markey, ect., and they play BIG mouthpieces.

It's all about the time you put in, and the sound in your mind. Knowing how to keep your face from disintegrating helps too.

A 1 1/2G will not kill your tenor chops unless you REALLY try to screw up.

sirisobhakya · 2019-12-13 2:42 a.m.

I am by no means a professional, but I have practiced (and played) many mouthpiece in the same gig many times. The size ranges from 11C-ish to Doug Yeo (60-ish), on bass trumpet, baritone, and bass trombone. The transition period is at most 4-5 notes.

As Kdanielsen said, once you can form your embouchure independently from the rim, and perhaps more importantly use your air right with respect to the instrument, doubling is not an issue at all.

davebb · by **davebb** » 2019-12-13 4:00 a.m.

My theory is that playing a larger than usual mouthpiece can help correct some embouchure deficiencies. A larger mouthpiece forces me to play with firmer corners.

Context : I used to struggle with double buzzing in the lower-middle register playing on a 4g. After a year on a 3G I switched back to the 4g and the problem is gone. I think my ideal mouthpiece is somewhere between the two.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2019-12-13 5:25 a.m.

[quote="thetuningslide"]I recently read an article called "mouthpiece meditations" 8on trombone.org where Larry Roth mentioned people using "one mouthpiece for all their needs" or something similar to that.[/quote]
Maybe that's the problem, because that doesn't make any sense. If you're playing a different instrument, you need to use the appropriate mouthpiece for that instrument.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2019-12-13 7:49 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]There are already a lot of good and valuable comments here. See you at MidWest.

As Kris said in the previous comment, when your embouchure formation becomes independent of the rim, doubling is less of a problem and can be beneficial.

~~[color=#FF0000]~~If you're doing everything correctly for your particular face. That's really what's important.

[/quote]

Not to belabor the point, but Doug is a true expert in this. I wish I had taken a lesson with Doug when I first started back. It's not inexpensive, but it's worth every penny. :good: I wouldn't just "have a conversation with him about doubling..."

--Andy in OKC

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2019-12-13 8:01 a.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="thetuningslide" post_id="99909" time="1576179307" user_id="6020">
I recently read an article called "mouthpiece meditations" 8on trombone.org where Larry Roth mentioned people using "one mouthpiece for all their needs" or something similar to that.[/quote]
Maybe that's the problem, because that doesn't make any sense. If you're playing a different instrument, you need to use the appropriate mouthpiece for that instrument.
</QUOTE>

Couldn’t agree more!!

I know thats an unpopular opinion, but things go better for me when I use a characteristic mouthpiece on each horn. My thought is that bass trombone is way harder when you try to use a small mouthpiece. The metal is never going to compromise but your chops might. I know there is some way to get a 4 rim with a wicked deep cup etc to work, but it was way easier for me to just use a normal bass mouthpiece (i play a griego alessi 4c on tenor and a griego gp6 on bass).

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-12-13 11:15 a.m.

Is it possible there is more than one “right way”?

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2019-12-13 12:11 p.m.

:good: :good: [quote="GBP"]Is it possible there is more than one “right way”?[/quote]

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2019-12-13 1:03 p.m.

[quote="GBP"]Is it possible there is more than one “right way”?[/quote]

OF COURSE!

I just can't get the one rim thing to work (and thankfully I figured out the other way more or less).

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-12-13 1:23 p.m.

I got the one rim thing to work for all my tenors. So 500 - 547 I play all on one rim (different cups and shanks). But the rim that fits my face for tenor isn't big enough for bass. So I use Elliott 104 rims for tenors, and ~ Bach 1 1/4g on bass.

I used to have a hard time switching from a 6 1/2al to a 5g on tenor, until I got the single rim for tenor It's much easier now to switch from the DE104 to the 1 1/4g.

Yes, obviously if I practiced more, switching would be easier, and there wouldn't be any range sacrifice. But that's the real danger of doubling - you cut your practice time for each instrument you add. Tenor, bass and euphonium, in my case, and fiddle around on tuba from time to time.

For me it has been helpful to consider myself primarily a tenor player, and base decisions on that. For example, if I'm going to sacrifice something, it's not going to be tenor playing.

I don't believe in a "right" way. There is likely a best way, but you've got to kiss a lot of frogs to find it.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2019-12-13 2:19 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]But that's the real danger of doubling - you cut your practice time for each instrument you add.[/quote]

This isn't the case for me. For me, to a certain extent, a trombone is a trombone, rhythm is rhythm, pitch is pitch, tone is tone. Practicing that stuff on one horn makes me better at the others. I'm not saying you don't have to practice all the horns, I'm just saying a lot of it carries over from one to the other. I think the most important things that happen are between your ears, and that's the same always.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-12-13 2:52 p.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="99967" time="1576261428" user_id="104">
But that's the real danger of doubling - you cut your practice time for each instrument you add.[/quote]

This isn't the case for me. For me, to a certain extent, a trombone is a trombone, rhythm is rhythm, pitch is pitch, tone is tone. Practicing that stuff on one horn makes me better at the others. I'm not saying you don't have to practice all the horns, I'm just saying a lot of it carries over from one to the other. I think the most important things that happen are between your ears, and that's the same always.
</QUOTE>

Yeah, I get there's a lot of overlap, but slide and valves are different for euph/tuba, intonation on the trombone and valved instruments is handled very differently, the second valve on the bass is different, the air and moving around down low is different from moving around up high, the role that voice plays is different.

When switching between small tenor and bass, the amount of air you use is a huge difference. Sometimes I have to exhale at the end of a phrase with small tenor where I might need an extra breath with bass. I can't always use just breath to support a lip slur to a pedal note, I might have to use the tongue to help move it along, where I'd never have to do that in a higher range. You eventually learn to compensate for those things, but you have to learn to compensate. They are small differences, but you can't pretend they don't make a difference in how you approach the various instruments.

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2019-12-14 3:13 a.m.

This is interesting for me because I plan to start adding bass trombone to my collection of instruments. Apparently it’s a topic important enough to warrant writing a book. This book on doubling comes from the offerings of Mountain Peak Music (I’m not promoting it, just mentioning it). Has anyone read the book?

<LINK_TEXT text="http://www.mountainpeakmusic.com/search ... y=Doubling">http://www.mountainpeakmusic.com/search.php?search_query=Doubling</LINK_TEXT>

I wonder how performers such as Gunhild Carling, James Morison and Trombone Shorty seem to switch from trumpet to trombone and back so easily.

thetuningslide · by **thetuningslide** » 2019-12-14 6:25 a.m.

[quote="johntarr"]This is interesting for me because I plan to start adding bass trombone to my collection of instruments. Apparently it’s a topic important enough to warrant writing a book. This book on doubling comes from the offerings of Mountain Peak Music (I’m not promoting it, just mentioning it). Has anyone read the book?

<LINK_TEXT text="http://www.mountainpeakmusic.com/search ... y=Doubling">http://www.mountainpeakmusic.com/search.php?search_query=Doubling</LINK_TEXT>

I wonder how performers such as Gunhild Carling, James Morison and Trombone Shorty seem to switch from trumpet to trombone and back so easily.[/quote]

Seems like exactly what I'm looking for, provided it's a good book. It's not too expensive, so I'll probably end up picking it up.

I'm very excited to be at Midwest, and hopefully see some of you. Again, I really like the idea of using the same time with different cups/backbores on all my horns. I'll definitely give this a try next week.

trombonedemon · 2019-12-16 2:09 p.m.

I've gotten some tissue damage from playing tenor trombone, I would say, stick to one or the other, my tenor trombone days are in the past, I've turn down gigs which required tenor trombone, not worth the physical pain and damage. Some people are great at doubling, some are not, never was able to play trumpet very well.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-16 3:37 p.m.

It really depends on the person. Some people can switch back between tuba and trombone with ease. Some can't. I'm not sure what the recipe is.

jph · by **jph** » 2020-01-03 4:24 p.m.

[quote="trombonedemon"]I've gotten some tissue damage from playing tenor trombone, I would say, stick to one or the other, my tenor trombone days are in the past, I've turn down gigs which required tenor trombone, not worth the physical pain and damage. Some people are great at doubling, some are not, never was able to play trumpet very well.[/quote]

I am reminded of Ed Kleinhammer's "how long can you be married to two wives" analogies from the very distant past. (Don't answer that one!) I suspect that Ed's philosophy that you'd best make of your mind, tenor or bass, changed over time as he coached many doublers during his career. Harold Van Schaik might have some observations on this one.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-01-03 4:33 p.m.

If you're getting tissue damage from playing tenor, I'll go out on a limb and say that you're probably not playing it very efficiently or healthily.

Doubling takes time on every instrument that you're trying to keep up. That's why my practice session usually has these ready to go, not just the one that I "want" to play on any given day. It's also why I'm picky with equipment.

griffinben · by **griffinben** » 2020-01-03 4:34 p.m.

What does your applied teacher say? S/He probably knows your playing far better than any of us do. Check in with them.

Caveat: As a college teacher in applied trombone, I've often have to "undo" bad habits that were born of unfounded or too focused concern rather than sticking to the plans we have in place.

If you do not trust your applied teacher you may want to think about going somewhere else.

If you have no applied teacher, consider taking a lesson from a trusted one with a track record of helping students do what you are trying to accomplish.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-01-03 4:42 p.m.

Ive heard from multiple Alex Iles students that hes a proponent of switching horns in the middle of your routine so you can get used to doubling.

I myself have gotten over the doubling hump by A, doing my tenor routine on bass and vice versa, and B, not overthinking it.

In any case, as stated above, your teacher would know better how you should approach this issue.

And in the end it'll take you putting in the practice time to build your strength and focus to make this a non issue.

jph · by **jph** » 2020-01-03 4:53 p.m.

Agree with Burgerbob, and I got a laugh out of the double side-by-side trombone stands...because that's exactly what I do. I can't but help picking up the "other" instrument once I've played the first one. I'm always curious.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-01-03 5:54 p.m.

[quote="griffinben"]What does your applied teacher say? S/He probably knows your playing far better than any of us do. Check in with them.

Caveat: As a college teacher in applied trombone, I've often have to "undo" bad habits that were born of unfounded or too focused concern rather than sticking to the plans we have in place.

If you do not trust your applied teacher you may want to think about going somewhere else.

If you have no applied teacher, consider taking a lesson from a trusted one with a track record of helping students do what you are trying to accomplish.[/quote]

Unfortunately when it comes to applied profs, you usually don't have a choice and have to have x number of credit hours in "applied" to graduate. Hated my applied prof. He really screwed me up.

trombonedemon · by **trombonedemon** » 2020-01-03 6:08 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]If you're getting tissue damage from playing tenor, I'll go out on a limb and say that you're probably not playing it very efficiently or healthily.

Doubling takes time on every instrument that you're trying to keep up. That's why my practice session usually has these ready to go, not just the one that I "want" to play on any given day. It's also why I'm picky with equipment.

[/quote]
That was almost 20 years ago, playing on a mouthpiece that had a way to flat and sharp of an inner rim, plus maybe a bad habit or 2, I've grown since then, and realize tenor was not for me; Ironically I can play higher on bass than tenor go figure, the Bass allows me to use my air more efficiently, its a correct fit for me physically if anything, thanks for the response :good: :cool:

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2020-01-03 9:24 p.m.

I double all the time . Small bore tenor, Large bore tenor, Bass Trombone , Tuba , Euphonium

I HAVE to practice the horns I need that week to make sure My face and my head are ready for each horn.

Now granted, small horn - Schilke 51B, Large Bore - Schilke 51 or 51C4, Bass - Schilke 59

so I`m keeping (some what) the same rim a lot.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-01-03 10:02 p.m.

Some people adjust to a different rim easier than others. Some great players like Doug Yeo and Joe Alessi prefer to keep the same rim all or most of the time, while many others use a different rim on each horn. I prefer to keep the same rim on alto, small tenor and large tenor/euphonium and "suck it up" on the rare occasions that I play bass. That's what works for me, but to be fair, I'm not playing bass in the Chicago Symphony or in a Hollywood studio. I like being able to go between my alto and tenor with very little adjustment (maybe an Overture on alto, immediately followed by a concerto accompaniment on tenor). This works for me. I think Jim Nova in Pittsburgh is using a Greg Black #3 rim on all of his horns, from Soprano to Contrabass on his overdubs. No matter what, that is seriously impressive playing!

I usually suggest to my students that they start out with using the same or similar rim if they start doubling on alto or small tenor, and go ahead and change rims if that seems to work better for them. No matter which way you choose to go with this, there is an adjustment that requires practice, and you just have to decide which way requires the least amount of work for you to achieve good results.

Jim Scott

griffinben · by **griffinben** » 2020-01-04 10:25 a.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]<QUOTE author="griffinben" post_id="101340" time="1578087297" user_id="5574">
What does your applied teacher say? S/He probably knows your playing far better than any of us do. Check in with them.

Caveat: As a college teacher in applied trombone, I've often have to "undo" bad habits that were born of unfounded or too focused concern rather than sticking to the plans we have in place.

If you do not trust your applied teacher you may want to think about going somewhere else.

If you have no applied teacher, consider taking a lesson from a trusted one with a track record of helping students do what you are trying to accomplish.[/quote]

Unfortunately when it comes to applied profs, you usually don't have a choice and have to have x number of credit hours in "applied" to graduate. Hated my applied prof. He really screwed me up.
</QUOTE>

I'm sorry to hear of your experience. The following comments are for anyone else that might be experiencing the same thing.

Having taught at many universities and colleges I understand the need for credits - but remember as much as you need credits to graduate with a diploma YOU are the person that is supposed to benefiting from the experience.

Everyone has a choice of schools and professors. I would never stay with a teacher I didn't like and I would also recommend a switch for anyone that did not like me as a teacher.

There's always other options.

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2020-01-04 2:20 p.m.

I think the title of the post is a clear misnomer "Danger". Perhaps "challenge" would be a better word. It's not the size / shape of the mouthpiece that causes damage but poor or improper technique. I routinely double between trumpet and trombone and I'm sure that there are many others who do. Trying to find the one mouthpiece rim that fits all is a mythological beast.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2020-01-04 5:49 p.m.

[quote="walldaja"]I think the title of the post is a clear misnomer "Danger". Perhaps "challenge" would be a better word. It's not the size / shape of the mouthpiece that causes damage but poor or improper technique. I routinely double between trumpet and trombone and I'm sure that there are many others who do. Trying to find the one mouthpiece rim that fits all is a mythological beast.[/quote]
I agree. I always found it odd when people say, "That mouthpiece size doesn't work for me". I think most of us started playing in grade school, and you aren't assigned an instrument based on your embouchure type - you either choose an instrument, or the band director assigns you an instrument that is needed in the band. So what if you had chosen french horn instead of trombone? Would you be playing a trombone sized mouthpiece? Of course not. You learn to play that instrument and the mouthpiece that goes with it.

Really good doublers don't sound like "a bass trombone player playing a tenor" or "a tenor trombone player playing a bass"; they sound like the instrument they're playing should sound. Mediocre doublers don't.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-01-04 6:50 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]Really good doublers don't sound like "a bass trombone player playing a tenor" or "a tenor trombone player playing a bass"; they sound like the instrument they're playing should sound. Mediocre doublers don't.[/quote]

:good:

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-01-05 9:20 a.m.

In short. Many players use the same size rim for alto, small tenor and large tenor, but most often different cups.

But when it comes to dubling tenor/bass trombone it is extremely rare to use the same rim. Maybe some freak can do it, but that is really not working for 99.9 % of humans.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2020-01-05 9:56 a.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]Really good doublers don't sound like "a bass trombone player playing a tenor" or "a tenor trombone player playing a bass"; they sound like the instrument they're playing should sound. Mediocre doublers don't.[/quote]

Perhaps that's part of the challenge. I wonder just how many tenor players who double on bass bone have spent enough time listening to bass bone players to develop a truly well-defined mental image of how they themselves want to sound?

--Andy in OKC

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2020-01-05 9:43 p.m.

Knowing what you want to sound like and actually sounding that way are two different things. A lot of doublers are unfortunately looking for the easy way out and don't really care.

jonzbonz · by **jonzbonz** » 2020-02-26 8:17 p.m.

As a decades long doubler I find this interesting. One of the things I learned a long time ago is to form the embouchure independently of the mouthpiece as stated above. I use a mouthpiece inner rim diameter that works for me for the horn I'm playing, although I kept the same size switching from small to large tenor. Currently I switch back and forth regularly between bass, small tenor, soprano trombones and trumpet and occasionally add euphonium. I'm not an A-list player but I have more opportunities being flexible and it's a lot of fun. I just have to practice on all the horns.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2020-02-27 6:01 a.m.

I play trumpet, small tenor, large tenor, bass, and Eb tuba. I play different rims on each, although I do use compromise mouthpieces on trumpet and tuba. I don’t know that I “double.” I DO play whatever instrument I’m using as cleanly, efficiently, and musically as possible. And I accept the fact that because I’m playing 5 different setups in multiple genres, that no single one of them is going to “best” always. But I structure my practice intelligently, I practice the same skills on all the horns, and I focus most of my attention on two of them: small tenor and bass.

As a gigging musician in a mid-sized city, I absolutely disagree with Kleinhammer’s advice from the 1960s, and Doug Yeo’s advice from the 2000s. I don’t have the opportunities available regionally to just focus on 1 instrument, and I think a lot of that advice goes out the window in today’s playing market.

Doubling forces your brain to solve musical problems in new ways, which makes you a stronger player. Navigating different-sized air columns can make you a more efficient player. Playing more varied music, with more varied musicians, makes you a better musician, period. And you’re never going to play NOLA jazz the same way on a bass trombone or a large tenor as you will on a smaller horn. You’re also never going to support a concert band on a 3B.

Some people use similar mouthpieces. Some people don’t. Do what works for you based on sound and feel. Mostly sound. Doubling requires rock-solid sound concepts before you ever pick up the horn. Can you list 5 players on each instrument whose sound you steer towards? What’s in your head matters a LOT more than what’s on your face.

~B

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2020-02-27 4:09 p.m.

[quote="brtnats"]I play trumpet, small tenor, large tenor, bass, and Eb tuba. I play different rims on each, although I do use compromise mouthpieces on trumpet and tuba. I don’t know that I “double.” I DO play whatever instrument I’m using as cleanly, efficiently, and musically as possible. And I accept the fact that because I’m playing 5 different setups in multiple genres, that no single one of them is going to “best” always. But I structure my practice intelligently, I practice the same skills on all the horns, and I focus most of my attention on two of them: small tenor and bass.

As a gigging musician in a mid-sized city, I absolutely disagree with Kleinhammer’s advice from the 1960s, and Doug Yeo’s advice from the 2000s. I don’t have the opportunities available regionally to just focus on 1 instrument, and I think a lot of that advice goes out the window in today’s playing market.

Doubling forces your brain to solve musical problems in new ways, which makes you a stronger player. Navigating different-sized air columns can make you a more efficient player. Playing more varied music, with more varied musicians, makes you a better musician, period. And you’re never going to play NOLA jazz the same way on a bass trombone or a large tenor as you will on a smaller horn. You’re also never going to support a concert band on a 3B.

Some people use similar mouthpieces. Some people don’t. Do what works for you based on sound and feel. Mostly sound. Doubling requires rock-solid sound concepts before you ever pick up the horn. Can you list 5 players on each instrument whose sound you steer towards? What’s in your head matters a LOT more than what’s on your face.

~B[/quote]

Great post!

deanmccarty · by **deanmccarty** » 2020-02-29 7:23 a.m.

I think that this is dependent on the individual. I also think that a lot of issues with mouthpiece changes is psychological. I play a completely different setup on every horn that I have. My mouthpiece choices for each tend to be smaller than the norm. But, that’s a different story for another time. My point is, that I approach each instrument differently. I think that people who stay on the same mouthpiece for every instrument approach those as the same instrument. I’m not saying one is better than the other... it’s just personal preference. To me, a large bore tenor should not be approached the same as a bass... they are different instruments. Therefore, use the correct equipment for each.

With that said, I have played with some great players who use the same mouthpiece across the board... so, I come back to personal preference. To answer your question... I have never had any issues going from one rim size to another.

ArbanRubank · 2020-02-29 8:33 a.m.

I personally believe there are two basic schools of thought:

1) Select the mpc size/shape/config for technique and shape the sound

2) Select the mpc size/shape/config for sound and shape the technique.

Since I am better at working up the technique to suit the equipment, I let my sound concept guide my mpc selection. I play three somewhat similarly-sized horns and yet am able to get three distinct lovely sound profiles by varying my mpc selection. Some are easier for me to execute technique on than others, so some require more practice.

I presume that for many (if not most) players who play multiple instruments (or just one), they achieve a compromise somewhere between my concept #1 & #2. Not me, though. My concept #2 rules for my use.

Someone may believe that THE perfect mpc, in terms of size/shape/config, coupled with THE perfect instrument will perfectly bring together my concepts #1 & #2. Okay. That's a noble quest and one most of us are probably on, whether we choose to admit it or not. Although, there are some who will steadfastly and resolutely stick with something to the sweet or bitter end. I think there is some merit in that as well.

I have heard guys who favor technique over sound. I can't listen to them for very long. I would rather listen to someone with a wonderful sound who plays more simplistically if he must. It's kinda rare to hear guys who have both. They are the superstars or our world and when I hear them, I can focus on whatever style and passion they exhibit in their playing.

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-02-29 9:33 a.m.

My most frequently played instruments are a small tenor and a bass. I use a 1.04” and a 1.14” with them respectively. I don’t play trombone for a living anymore, but when I was I never really thought the mouthpiece size difference was what was holding me back. Not having 100% of my time invested in one instrument was one factor and the other was just not being able to practice that much because I was either playing, in class, doing homework, or having a social life.

So I don’t think that switching up mouthpieces is necessarily bad, but the reality of separating your time is unavoidable. Not that players don’t do incredibly on multiple instruments, but there’s always room to be better no matter who you are.

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2020-03-01 2:08 a.m.

Speaking of doubling, or actually tripling, I saw Christian Lindberg perform the other night. He started off with a piece for alto and small chamber orchestra, conducted three pieces and then finished of with a virtuoso display on large tenor.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2020-03-01 8:36 a.m.

[quote="johntarr"]Speaking of doubling, or actually tripling, I saw Christian Lindberg perform the other night. He started off with a piece for alto and small chamber orchestra, conducted three pieces and then finished of with a virtuoso display on large tenor.[/quote]

Maybe he and James Morrison could make the point that if you are going to double, then truly double. Perhaps two radically different set-ups would be of much less "concern" to the chops; kinda like cycling vs running - as opposed to cycling on two slightly different bikes with slightly different seats, handlebar configs, gear ratios, etc.

Could be that the chops may find playing a bass with say, a Yamaha 60L then playing a King 3BF (or the like) with say, a Bach 7C to be so different as to not be in as much contention as playing two similar yet different horns with two similar yet different mpcs.

Could be a good approach for some of us to consider...

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-03-01 10:31 a.m.

No problem to play different rims. You need a strong technique in the first place. When you no longer are bound to play a special rim or size on your tenor mouthpiece then you migh twant to start doubling on a bass mouthpiece. Try what works. I play different rims on alto, small tenor, large tenor and bass trombone and it does not give me problems.

/Tom

afugate · by **afugate** » 2020-03-03 7:41 a.m.

When I first started playing, I learned a number of bad habits that made things difficult on the horn. Among the very worst was placing the mouthpiece on an unformed embouchure. This led to my screwing the chops into the mouthpiece after it was set.

Years (decades) later, I took a lesson with Doug Elliott that taught me some basic embouchure mechanics. Since then I've discovered I can switch from tuba, trombone, trumpet, without too much difficulty. Before, I had trouble even going from tenor to bass.

Yes, there are still significant differences between the various horns. But things are sooooo much easier for me now because I've learned to set my chops before putting the mouthpiece in place.

I have no idea if this is helpful to anyone else. But it was helpful to me, so I thought I'd share.

As always, YMMV.

--Andy in OKC

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-03-03 8:11 a.m.

[quote="johntarr"]Speaking of doubling, or actually tripling, I saw Christian Lindberg perform the other night. He started off with a piece for alto and small chamber orchestra, conducted three pieces and then finished of with a virtuoso display on large tenor.[/quote]

His tenor and alto mouthpieces fall squarely within the "use a similar rim for everything" category, fwiw. They are radically almost the same rim 4CL vs 13CL.

Published specs might say otherwise, but they feel exactly the same, probably due to the rim shape.

NorthernEuph · by **NorthernEuph** » 2020-03-04 4:10 p.m.

I play euphonium, large tenor, small tenor regularly and alto and sackbut less so. I use a DE setup with different cups and shanks for the first two and three different mouthpieces for the last three. I've found that I can't achieve the sound I'm after without using a mouthpiece that I feel is best suited for the instrument. Having said that, the biggest challenge in making the switch is using the air correctly for each instrument as each ensemble calls for a different approach to sound, dynamics and articulation - not to mention blending with the section. The embouchure has to adapt to each mouthpiece and instrument, but it's the air that makes the embouchure function. When the air is working properly, everything falls into place. In addition, I have to be mindful of the character of each instrument and that calls for a different mental approach before playing a single note. I also take the approach that the euph and large tenor are "home base" and the others branch out from there. Of course, one has to be mindful of the embouchure, but it can start to have negative effects if you obsess too much about the flesh. And I practice switching back and forth as there are rare occassions when I have to switch instruments in a concert.

Tremozl · by **Tremozl** » 2020-03-29 4:48 p.m.

Studio musicians who play film scores are expected to double. Bass trombone doubles contrabass trombone, and tuba doubles cimbasso. I know it'd be possible to preserve the same mouthpiece between tuba and cimbasso but it's not gonna work well between bass and contrabass trb.

ChadA · by **ChadA** » 2020-04-02 10:50 a.m.

I play tenor and bass regularly. For background: In my orchestra, I'm the bass trombonist, but I've subbed on principal and second. In other pro orchestras, I've subbed and played extra mostly on bass, but occasionally on tenor (and once on euphonium). In my orchestra's brass quintet, I'm the (tenor) trombonist. I've doubled on touring Broadway shows: tenor/bass and bass/tuba, each for multiple shows/runs. I've done at least a half dozen solo recitals (faculty recitals and college job audition recitals) that included both tenor and bass. I've done 2 faculty solo recitals that had alto, tenor, and bass.

Like anything, you need to practice. :) You need to choose rep that fits your circumstances and choose your rep order carefully. You need to move air through each horn the way that horn needs it. You can't move air in an alto the way you move it in a bass; it backs up the plumbing. :)

I don't use the same rim for everything, but I can see the attraction and benefit of it. I use a Hammond 10ML or 10MXL on tenor and a customized 21BXL on bass. For alto, I do use the same rim but smaller cup. I didn't set out to do that, it's just what sounded the best of the mouthpieces I have. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-04-02 11:33 a.m.

I wasn't able to switch between small bore mouthpieces and bass mouthpieces easily until I started using larger diameter rims for tenor. I had a hard time even switching between 6.5al and 5G.

Now that all my tenors use DE 104 rims, I can switch easily to bass where I play a 1 1/4g. I don't use the same rim on bass as on tenor, but all my tenors use the same rim (from 500 bore to 547).

Now I can switch from one tune to the other when I play quartet. I'm usually playing bass, but now and then I have lead on a tune, and pull out a smaller tenor. It's easy enough to do as long as I've practiced high notes on small tenor. I can usually play bass without too much practice, maybe a little warmup, but tenor needs practice.

Just because guys like Morrison exist doesn't mean everybody can do that kind of thing. He's an amazing outlier, not an indication of what everybody can achieve. It's unfair to the rest of us to look at guys like him as the norm.

It took me years to figure out how to double. I played the same instrument (88h) exclusively from 6th grade to after college (~10 years). It took a long time to make something else work. I'm sure we have a range of experience here from me to people who just intuitively pick up a french horn or a tuba and make it all work.

Trent Hamilton is a pretty mediocre player at best, but he plays slide, valves, big mouthpiece, small mouthpiece, just about anything. He doesn't get a tremendous sound on any single instrument, but he has pretty good facility on just about anything. From tuba to piccolo trumpet. I just think there's a wide range of possible skill levels, and just because one person does something amazing doesn't mean we all can.

flotrb · by **flotrb** » 2020-04-05 2:14 p.m.

As a professional low brass doubler for 50+ years, I have had my share of "experiences" with doubling issues. My college professor said to me: "Find a mouthpiece that works for you on that horn...then wield it into the leadpipe." Being a low brass doubler for many B'dway shows through the years, I have found that the "right tool" for the job...is what the part <U>says</U> it is! Playing a typical walking bass trombone passage for 12 meas....2 meas. rest, put bass trb down, pick up tenor and play lead over saxes, starting on "G" above middle "C" and going up to "D". I have found that my King SS 3B w/VB 6½AL mpc, Bach Soloist 210 w/VB 4G, and King Duo Gravis SS w/VB MtVernon 1½G, Jin Bao Eb tuba w/Wick 3L give me the "typical B'way" sounds for each particular style that is required in the part.

I agree with the concept of your embouchure being formed before the rim gets there, because there is very little time, in 2 meas., as your tenor comes flying toward your chops at Mach 1, to think about anything other than "nailing" that trombone lead line, 2 meas. after that "a la Roberts" bass bone phrase you just laid down. Sometimes there are five or more horn changes in 1 chart. I just finished Disney's "Aladdin", tenor trb: E below the staff to Bb above middle C, bass trb: pedal F# to Gb above middle C. Now <I>that</I>, is a real trombone dance. Oh, yeah, what about "The Lion King" doubles are...bass trb pedals drive The Stampede and tuba (with a pedal C "fart" at the end of Hakuna Matata!)

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