LOW and LOUD pedal tones for Bass Trombone

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-16 4:25 p.m.

I'm sure just about anyone wanting to achieve low pedal tone facility has seen the video of Alan Raph on low tones. I've been working on them, but I still have trouble, and I'm trying to decide if it's just that I need to work longer on it, or whether my mouthpiece needs to be bigger. I'm talking about the pedal F and lower notes.

Keeping in mind, Alan Raph, as far as I have heard, played on a 1 1/2G size mouthpiece. I'm currently using a Laskey 85MD, which is actually around 1 1/4G sized (according to specs), and I'm also starting to work with a Ferguson clone of a Minick L, which is also around that size, and was used by people like Phil Teele and Reichenbach.

Or maybe I should go back to the Faxx 1 1/2G, and really get that as low as I can possibly go, and then switch to the bigger mouthpieces?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-12-16 5:00 p.m.

It's certainly possible to play down to double pedals on any size mouthpiece, including the smaller 1 1/2s. But my response and sound definitely suffer if I go too small. Too big (or more accurately, too open) and the response gets difficult again in the other direction.

My current mouthpiece of choice, the Greg Black 1G .312 #2, does not have the best pedals of my collection. It's a tad bit too open. But since those are not a common need, I compromise and work a little more on them.

Going through my collection, it seems like the Yeo has some of the poppiest, quickest pedals, along with my Bach 1 1/4GM.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-16 7:11 p.m.

Yeah, I think it probably is more of a problem with me, or my approach. On my Euph, I find pedals come out pretty easily down to F, on a 4.5G size mouthpiece. Could be the increased back pressure. Some of the more "modern" bass trombone mouthpieces have wide open throats, but they seem mostly marketed towards symphonic players.

Time to really start woodshedding with Phil Teele's book.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-12-16 7:26 p.m.

The equipment is a matter of having a rim that gives you enough room, with the rest to match your needs. This is why lots of people like the Ferguson pieces, which have larger rims but aren't especially deep or open.

Good luck!

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-17 10:04 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]The equipment is a matter of having a rim that gives you enough room, with the rest to match your needs. This is why lots of people like the Ferguson pieces, which have larger rims but aren't especially deep or open.

Good luck![/quote] Yeah. I just wish there was a "simple" recipe for better or easier pedal tones. "Make everything bigger" doesn't really work. I've got a BBb tuba, and honestly I can play lower (and louder) on the bass trombone currently.

I will say that the Ferguson L definitely puts more 'ZIP" on the notes than the Laskey.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-12-17 10:27 a.m.

There is no short cut. I play pedals everyday as part of my daily routine. When I started doing that, the notes improved.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-17 10:48 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]There is no short cut. I play pedals everyday as part of my daily routine. When I started doing that, the notes improved.[/quote] Yeah, I guess I'm just impatient. I've been working on them solidly for 2 months, without much progress. When I really work on high range stuff like Tommy Dorsey, after a few weeks there is a noticeable improvement.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2019-12-17 12:25 p.m.

Approaching the pedals like they're totally separate from the rest of your range will yield just that... an inaccessible pedal register that has very little in common with the rest of your playing.

In addition to doing breath attacks on pedal notes, try slur patterns that place you in that register. Descending scales are also extremely helpful. Focus on maintaining a consistent volume and timbre, even across the "break." That will strengthen your pedal register to the point where you can melt faces/play the brown note, even on a 1.5G.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-12-17 2:53 p.m.

There are the Teele routines (Horn Guys usually carry these.) I’ve never had the patience for them myself and I wonder if there are more efficient ways to achieve the same result.

The usual approaches are slurs, arpeggia, and scales from your comfort zone down into the pedal range, as well as long tones. This is an area where slow deliberate practice might work well. Be especially conscious of your air. And I wouldn’t rule out a bit of mpc experimentation, either. Also, dig out the parts that call for pedals and practice them, especially at painfully slow tempos.

FWIW, I found the Ferg L just a little too zippy for my tastes. Teele played a Minick L, but Reichenbach played an obscure G Roberts SO mpc until recently (Schilke now makes a Reichenbach mpc).

My $.02.

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2019-12-17 3:27 p.m.

Yeah. I just wish there was a "simple" recipe for better or easier pedal tones. "Make everything bigger" doesn't really work. I've got a BBb tuba, and honestly I can play lower (and louder) on the bass trombone currently.

Same experience here with modifications. Better low range on bass bone than bb tuba. Best low range on eb tuba. Probably because the partials on my bb tuba do not align as well as on the two other.

In my experience the best thing you can do except for some wood shedding is to find a mouthpieces that do align partials as good as possible. That helps both in pedals and high range.

The rest is work.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-17 4:16 p.m.

My short experience with a Yamaha YEB-321 was the same. I could belt out all types of low notes and high notes using a Helleberg 7B, but NOT with the Helleberg 120S. On the other hand on a larger tuba, the Helleberg 7B sounded kinda weak, while the 120S resonated much better.

The Ferguson L is DEFINITELY zippy, which is good for band and jazz stuff. I'm wondering if the LS is a bit more mellow with the wider cup and throat. Ferguson JR I think has less mass, so it doesn't have the zip that the L does.

According to an article posted a while ago, it listed Reichenbach using a Conn 62H with a Minick L, and Phil Teele using a Yamaha YBL-612 (Silver - made 20 years ago) with a Minick L Glassel mouthpiece.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-12-17 4:23 p.m.

Bill told me so himself. 😉

He’s on Greenhoe/Schilke these days.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-12-17 5:08 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]Approaching the pedals like they're totally separate from the rest of your range will yield just that... an inaccessible pedal register that has very little in common with the rest of your playing.

In addition to doing breath attacks on pedal notes, try slur patterns that place you in that register. Descending scales are also extremely helpful. Focus on maintaining a consistent volume and timbre, even across the "break." That will strengthen your pedal register to the point where you can melt faces/play the brown note, even on a 1.5G.[/quote]

Both approaches are helpful if one is looking to have a useable pedal register for sure. The Charlie Vernon book has some good exercises. I do like playing scales from the bottom of my register to the very top. Also, playing Bordogni and other etudes in the pedal register really help one to get around in that range.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-18 10:53 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Bill told me so himself. 😉

He’s on Greenhoe/Schilke these days.[/quote] That Schilke is tempting, but I really want to avoid having a huge collection of mouthpieces like many do. I really need to work with what I have. I am tempted to pick up the Ferguson LS or a Hammond 21BL so I have a "toilet bowl" on hand if I need it.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-12-18 1:11 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="100257" time="1576617833" user_id="2999">
Bill told me so himself. 😉

He’s on Greenhoe/Schilke these days.[/quote] ... I am tempted to pick up the Ferguson LS or a Hammond 21BL so I have a "toilet bowl" on hand if I need it.
</QUOTE>

I satisfied that temptation with a Yeo replica at ~$70. It worked out far better than I expected and it’s now my main bass mpc. A real good all round mpc.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-18 2:13 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I satisfied that temptation with a Yeo replica at ~$70. It worked out far better than I expected and it’s now my main bass mpc. A real good all round mpc.[/quote] I tried a used one at Dillon a few weeks ago, and I unfortunately did not get along with the rim. I like more rounded cushy rims, which the Ferguson definitely has.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-18 3:39 p.m.

I could also try some Denis Wick Tuba mouthpieces with the small shank...

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-12-18 3:57 p.m.

:???:

GBP · by **GBP** » 2019-12-18 4:30 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]I could also try some Denis Wick Tuba mouthpieces with the small shank...[/quote]

Okay, bad idea. You can’t buy a good pedal range. You will have to put in the work needed to get and maintain those notes.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-18 8:43 p.m.

Thankfully, I was joking. But I unfortunately know a bass bone player who uses the smallest size wick tuba mpc in his horn. No, it didn't help him either, and now he just sounds like he's got no leadpipe.

bcschipper · by **bcschipper** » 2019-12-19 1:48 a.m.

How about practicing the entire bass trombone range but without the use of valves using “false tones”? Once you can make them sound nice, stable, and loud, you find those notes really easy to play with valves. It takes a while though but with daily practice I would bet you see improvements within one or two months. Scales and slurs are very helpful for such practice.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-12-19 2:14 a.m.

I don't find that pedals really pop with false tones. The range above, sure, can be useful.

bcschipper · by **bcschipper** » 2019-12-19 3:39 a.m.

What does “pop” mean here?

There are false tones also in the pedal range. Just go lower than pedal E without valves.

I am not suggesting to necessarily use the false tones in a performance. I am just suggesting it as an exercise that helps to build the pedal range. The goal though is to make false tones indistinguishable from “real” notes using valves.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-19 9:51 a.m.

[quote="bcschipper"]What does “pop” mean here?

There are false tones also in the pedal range. Just go lower than pedal E without valves.

I am not suggesting to necessarily use the false tones in a performance. I am just suggesting it as an exercise that helps to build the pedal range. The goal though is to make false tones indistinguishable from “real” notes using valves.[/quote] I guess, immediate response. My Bb to F# pedals come out immediately, but below that I can't really tongue them and start them. It's really got to be more of a practice thing than anything else. I mean, I could always half-lip them, but those sound really blatty.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-12-19 1:15 p.m.

[quote="bcschipper"]What does “pop” mean here?

There are false tones also in the pedal range. Just go lower than pedal E without valves.

I am not suggesting to necessarily use the false tones in a performance. I am just suggesting it as an exercise that helps to build the pedal range. The goal though is to make false tones indistinguishable from “real” notes using valves.[/quote]

There's no real "false tone" partial to the pedals like there is in the 2nd partial, just a huge zone where you can lip anything to anything. I don't personally find that very useful.

bcschipper · by **bcschipper** » 2019-12-19 6:53 p.m.

Not sure how to understand `real "false tones" '. Are there "real false tones" and "false false tones"? To me it feels like false tones. Aren't all false tones "lipped" no matter whether they are real false tones or false false tones? And doesn't "lipping" in the low range help in developing and opening up the register? I believe it helped me but I realize that players are different.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-12-19 7:03 p.m.

[quote="bcschipper"]Not sure how to understand `real "false tones" '. Are there "real false tones" and "false false tones"? To me it feels like false tones. Aren't all false tones "lipped" no matter whether they are real false tones or false false tones? And doesn't "lipping" in the low range help in developing and opening up the register? I believe it helped me but I realize that players are different.[/quote]

You will notice that Falset tones (the ones between E and pedal Bb on a straight tenor) have preferred positions and are thus not truly "lipped". I suspect it's harnessing some resonances within the instrument of higher partials to make the notes speak since the tube cannot be made long enough to cause true resonance.

I'm not sure how "Falset pedals" would work in this case. Maybe these are really lipped notes like the ones in a buzz.

bcschipper · by **bcschipper** » 2019-12-19 7:17 p.m.

I also find it useful to change my slide position for the "false false tones". My impression is that it helps but I am not sure whether it physically helps or whether it is just a psychological effect. Anyway, the "lipping", jar, oral cavity etc. does certainly most of the work.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-12-19 7:27 p.m.

There is a false tone partial on the 2nd partial, a major third below the "normal" note. So low Gb in first position, F in 2nd, etc.

The false tones on the first partial are a major 7th below the "normal" note, so they are pedal B in first, double pedal Bb in 2nd, etc.

You can certainly lip anything around down there, but I don't really see the point.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-12-19 8:04 p.m.

Tuba players know a whole lot about false tones, probably more than trombone players. In the old days with three valve tubas, they were a necessity, and recently are coming back into use. Some instruments have very strong secondary resonances that occur with far fewer valves than the "proper" fingering. These are sometimes used to get a more immediate response from the tuba.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-12-20 3:54 p.m.

Well, some tuba players know about, and use, false tones. They are different from the trombone false tones though.

The trombone can find a good Gb (or F#) on first position, the tuba can find a good Eb above the pedal Bb on a BBb tuba, or a Bb above the pedal F on a F tuba. That is because they are different animals. Both instruments do have the low major seven lower then the pedal tone.

Trombonists have used false tones since at least 1600.

I do use false tones sometimes on tuba even when the tuba has 5 valves, because the false tones has biger amplitude.

Back to trombone pedals.

I do move my mothpiece for the lowest pedals when playing loud. I can play all the pedals without moving the mpc, but I can play the louder when I move the mpc up towards my nose, and lowering my lower jaw in a staight down direction. But that is me, that might not work for you. Some players do move the mpc the other direction.

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LOW and LOUD pedal tones for Bass Trombone