3B+ in a classical setting

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-01-05 1:39 p.m.

I have another thread covering certain horn options im looking at to help or add to my arsenal of legit (classical) horns. One horn i forgot was the 3B+. But probably for good reason.

The Bach 36 is undoubtedly one of the go to medium bore horns. The Conn 78H, when one can be found, may be on par with the 36s sound and uses. But Kings, to me at least, have always seemed to have a brighter unclassical sound no matter the bore size. Now i know crooks, leadpipe and bell material play a part in how a horn sounds. Put a 8H crook on a Bach 42 and you got a completely different horn. So would a 3B+, with its rose brass bell and .525 bore, pass muster in a classical setting?

I used to own a 3B+. I sorta wish i still owned it. I'm thinking about buying one again. It was a completely different blow compared to my Conns, which was partly lead me to sell it. I didn't get a chane to use it in a legit setting so thats why im posing this question. Would changing the slide crook help make it more legit sounding? Or prehaps changing the leadpipe to a Bach 36 pipe, as I've had great success with Bach pipes in my Conns? Am i too concerned with what other players may think of me sitting with a King playing Mozart? Should i tell them to sit and spin?

Thanks!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-01-05 2:50 p.m.

Just try it first. My 3B (not plus) silversonic sounds perfectly fine in a legit setting, if you're not expecting the hugest 42 sound.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-01-05 3:14 p.m.

Nothing wrong in playing Mozart on a small bore horn

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-01-05 3:24 p.m.

Play it in a rehearsal and decide for yourself.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-05 3:31 p.m.

I can definitely work, depending on repertoire, as well as what the rest of the section is playing. Most of the "classic" repertoire was written for much smaller trombones than we typically play on now.

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2020-01-05 5:33 p.m.

Kings work just fine in an orchestra. The only issue I see is the 3b+ isn't manufactured anymore so it might be a hard horn to find. They still make the 4B which is very well suited for orchestra, but is a larger .547" bore.

Regarding modifying fixed leadpipes/slide crooks - I always advise against this unless there is a legitimately defective part (manufactured poorly/worn out). It's always a guessing game and you never know if it will be a positive change until you actually do it. If you're looking for a bigger sound out of the 3B then you might be very happy with a good 4B, or a silver 3B.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-01-05 5:40 p.m.

[quote="castrubone"]Kings work just fine in an orchestra. The only issue I see is the 3b+ isn't manufactured anymore so it might be a hard horn to find. They still make the 4B which is very well suited for orchestra, but is a larger .547" bore.

Regarding modifying fixed leadpipes/slide crooks - I always advise against this unless there is a legitimately defective part (manufactured poorly/worn out). It's always a guessing game and you never know if it will be a positive change until you actually do it. If you're looking for a bigger sound out of the 3B then you might be very happy with a good 4B, or a silver 3B.[/quote]

Last i looked 3B+s are still made unless thats changed recently. The one i had was bought new in 2007.

As far as leadpipes or changing parts in general , I'd normally agree that if it isn't necessary then don't do it. But i like having the ability to try out different leadpipes and the ease of maintenance a modular horn offers. Changing a slide crook however isn't something I'm game to do.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-01-05 5:55 p.m.

The 3B+ with F is no longer made. I tried a 1993 "Anniversary" model and was underwhelmed. I really wanted to like it -- I've been a King fan for years.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-01-05 6:34 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]The 3B+ with F is no longer made. I tried a 1993 "Anniversary" model and was underwhelmed. I really wanted to like it -- I've been a King fan for years.[/quote]

I owned a straight 3B+. I don't see the need for a valve while sitting in a lead seat.

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2020-01-05 6:34 p.m.

Right, they'll still make a 3BPL on request but it's usually a "special order." I was thinking of the a 3B+ w/trigger which isn't available at all.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-05 6:43 p.m.

I don't think they are special order. You can order one right now on WWBW.com. They have an estimated ship date of 2-19-2020, just like most of the regular sized 3B horns.

Seems kind of strange that King would let a major retailer run out of horns right at the end of the holiday season. They are also out of a lot of the Bach standard offerings.

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2020-01-05 6:48 p.m.

Yes, you can order one (through WWBW or somewhere else) and they will make it for you. Dealers do not stock the 3B+ because King does not make them unless it's specifically requested, hence, it's a "special order."

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-05 7:13 p.m.

Sounds like if you order a 3BF bell section and a 3B+ slide you can still get a brand new 3BF+. Are the slides not compatible?

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2020-01-05 7:34 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Sounds like if you order a 3BF bell section and a 3B+ slide you can still get a brand new 3BF+. Are the slides not compatible?[/quote]

Maybe? It's the same bell, but I don't know if the plus has a different gooseneck/receiver. It's a clever idea. They're not Shires, so I don't know how many spare 3B bells they have lying around the factory. Replacement slides are more common, but they generally stick to making complete instruments only. That being said, you could probably make it happen if you talked to the right people.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-05 7:53 p.m.

You can order a complete bell from their parts page. You might have to go through a music shop that had an account with them. And you'd need to know if the slides were interchangeable. To me a 3B already plays plenty big, but this might be a way to get an even bigger 3B+

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2020-01-05 8:14 p.m.

Of course. You can buy parts and widgets for nearly every horn they make (including some Benge things!), and/or did make in the past....theoretically. Again, they'd probably have to make it and it would take a month or two. Unless you get lucky, they generally don't manufacture surplus things like bell sections to have handy.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-01-05 8:17 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Sounds like if you order a 3BF bell section and a 3B+ slide you can still get a brand new 3BF+. Are the slides not compatible?[/quote]
I think the bigger question is the bore of the f-attachment. Anyone have a 3BF and a set of calipers handy?

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-01-05 8:23 p.m.

King rotors from what i understand are the bore size of the slide. So a 3Bf rotor section should be .508.

At least thats my understanding.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-01-05 8:53 p.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]King rotors from what i understand are the bore size of the slide. So a 3Bf rotor section should be .508.

At least thats my understanding.[/quote]
It may be somewhat larger. The "f-attachment the same bore as the slide" philosophy seems to have come from George McCracken. He designed the 4B/4BF, the 4B-based 5B, and the Duo Gravis, but not, to the best of my knowledge, the 3B/3BF (which were introduced several years earlier). The 1480 certainly has a larger attachment bore (around .562") than slide bore (typically .536"/.546").

This is one of those times when we need actual measurements or published manufacturer's specs. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if King changed the attachment bore on the 3BF when they changed the wrap to match the 4BF.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2020-01-05 9:33 p.m.

Tenons are different.

JLivi · by **JLivi** » 2020-01-05 9:58 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="101515" time="1578269588" user_id="3642">
Sounds like if you order a 3BF bell section and a 3B+ slide you can still get a brand new 3BF+. Are the slides not compatible?[/quote]
I think the bigger question is the bore of the f-attachment. Anyone have a 3BF and a set of calipers handy?
</QUOTE>

[quote="Thrawn22"]King rotors from what i understand are the bore size of the slide. So a 3Bf rotor section should be .508.

At least thats my understanding.[/quote]

I almost bought a king valve section off of a forum member, and I believe he said that his 3b and 607 valve sections were .530 ports.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-05 10:11 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]Tenons are different.[/quote]

So it's a no-go.

DaveMAus · by **DaveMAus** » 2020-01-12 7:30 p.m.

I almost bought a king valve section off of a forum member, and I believe he said that his 3b and 607 valve sections were .530 ports.

[/i]

Can anybody confirm whether a 3B+ or 607 handslide will fit a regular 3B?

And any thoughts on how it would play with the bore difference between the bell & slide sections? I know you can do something similar with an 88H (mating a 0.562 slide with 0.547 bell), but never tried it myself.

Hoping to get a more legit sound with my 3B/F silversonic, but maybe I'm dreaming...

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-01-12 8:28 p.m.

[quote="DaveMAus"]<QUOTE>

I almost bought a king valve section off of a forum member, and I believe he said that his 3b and 607 valve sections were .530 ports.[/quote][/i]

Can anybody confirm whether a 3B+ or 607 handslide will fit a regular 3B?

And any thoughts on how it would play with the bore difference between the bell & slide sections? I know you can do something similar with an 88H (mating a 0.562 slide with 0.547 bell), but never tried it myself.

Hoping to get a more legit sound with my 3B/F silversonic, but maybe I'm dreaming...
</QUOTE>

With Most rotor setups, the rotor section bore will be larger than the slide bore. In the case of an 88H, the rotor section bore size will still be larger than the .562 slide.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-01-12 8:29 p.m.

[quote="DaveMAus"]<QUOTE>

I almost bought a king valve section off of a forum member, and I believe he said that his 3b and 607 valve sections were .530 ports.[/quote][/i]

Can anybody confirm whether a 3B+ or 607 handslide will fit a regular 3B?

And any thoughts on how it would play with the bore difference between the bell & slide sections? I know you can do something similar with an 88H (mating a 0.562 slide with 0.547 bell), but never tried it myself.

Hoping to get a more legit sound with my 3B/F silversonic, but maybe I'm dreaming...
</QUOTE>

King .525 and .508 sections are not interchangeable.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-01-12 8:43 p.m.

Yes the 3B/f valve section is .530 bore.

DaveMAus · by **DaveMAus** » 2020-01-12 11:27 p.m.

Ok, thanks all.

Anybody know the bore size of the regular 3B/F valve section? And do you mean it won’t sound good if the handslide bore is larger than valve bore? (connector issues aside).

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2020-01-12 11:53 p.m.

Another option if you like Kings might be a King 607F, brass bell, or 608F, rose brass bell. F attachment, .525 bore like a 3B+.

DaveMAus · by **DaveMAus** » 2020-01-13 12:21 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]Another option if you like Kings might be a King 607F, brass bell, or 608F, rose brass bell. F attachment, .525 bore like a 3B+.[/quote]

I agree, but I already have too many trombones haha! (/goes to wash mouth out)

To clarify, I want to keep using the 3B/F, but was thinking it'd be great to be able to use a .525 slide for occasions where I want a more open sound. .... and for that matter, maybe even have a 2b slide for lead playing. So, not 3 separate trombones, but 3 x slides.

But as I say, I don't know if it would work, maybe just a dream..

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-13 12:24 a.m.

[quote="DaveMAus"]Ok, thanks all.

Anybody know the bore size of the regular 3B/F valve section? And do you mean it won’t sound good if the handslide bore is larger than valve bore? (connector issues aside).[/quote]

The 3B/F valve section is .530 bore, probably with rotor ports that are oval and constricted. The ports on mine were opened.

If the bore constricts through the valve or valve section, it messes with airflow, kind of like how a leadpipe messes with air flow using the Venturi effect, but in a bad way.

DaveMAus · by **DaveMAus** » 2020-01-13 12:35 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="DaveMAus" post_id="102238" time="1578889622" user_id="8025">
Ok, thanks all.

Anybody know the bore size of the regular 3B/F valve section? And do you mean it won’t sound good if the handslide bore is larger than valve bore? (connector issues aside).[/quote]

The 3B/F valve section is .530 bore, probably with rotor ports that are oval and constricted. The ports on mine were opened.

</QUOTE>

Hmmm that suggests a 0.525 slide would work, right?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-13 12:42 a.m.

[quote="DaveMAus"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="102247" time="1578893060" user_id="3642">

The 3B/F valve section is .530 bore, probably with rotor ports that are oval and constricted. The ports on mine were opened.
[/quote]

Hmmm that suggests a 0.525 slide would work, right?
</QUOTE>

Usually the valve is every more large than the slide. For example, a .547 horn's valve section is usually .562.

As has been said, the connectors also don't work anyway for .525 king slides and the 3B bell.

DaveMAus · by **DaveMAus** » 2020-01-13 1:59 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="DaveMAus" post_id="102248" time="1578893738" user_id="8025">

Hmmm that suggests a 0.525 slide would work, right?[/quote]

Usually the valve is every more large than the slide. A .547 horn's valve is usually .562.

As has been said, the connectors also don't work
</QUOTE>

The % increase of valve/slide bore is in the ballpark. 562/547 = 3% increase; 530/525 = 1% increase. I'm assuming I can retro-fit connectors.

For the 88H I see you can actually buy .562/.580 dual bore slides, meaning the slide bore is bigger than the valve bore. Not that necessarily means much in the case of the 3b, but at least it seems feasible to use a bigger slide. I know the only proof would be to try it out though.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... pipes-.php">https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/trombone/accessories/trombone_custom_and_replacement_parts/products/sku065861-conn-62h88h-series-sl6280-trombone-slide-assembly-562580-dual-bore-w3-leadpipes-.php</LINK_TEXT>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-01-13 2:03 a.m.

To be clear, there's no written rule that a valve bore has to be larger than the slide. The King 6B has valves the same size as the slide and it plays just fine.

Also, the SL62/80 is a bass trombone dual bore slide... it just happens to fit the 88H. Not really applicable to the scenario.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-13 4:43 p.m.

Weren't the Williams F-attachments also the same bore as the slide? I also think they believed in making the trombone out of all the same alloy.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-01-13 4:55 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]Weren't the Williams F-attachments also the same bore as the slide? I also think they believed in making the trombone out of all the same alloy.[/quote]
Not on my Williams, but it's a pre-WWII TIS horn. His approach may have changed on the post-WWII models.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2020-01-13 11:00 p.m.

3B+ (or 3B) for classical?

For sure.... I've played the Mozart Requiem 1st part twice in my life; once with a Bach 12 and once with a Yamaha 697Z (.... the Bach was better suited to it).

And, I've played some seriously good concert/wind ensemble music as principal with a nice 3B (it was a 90's version) and it was excellent for all the music. Just get the right mouthpiece to fill out the horns sound.

Can't see why you couldn't make a 3B+ work for anything except maybe Bruckner or Wagner.

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2020-02-02 10:54 p.m.

[quote="DaveMAus"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="102249" time="1578894138" user_id="3642">

Usually the valve is every more large than the slide. A .547 horn's valve is usually .562.

As has been said, the connectors also don't work[/quote]

The % increase of valve/slide bore is in the ballpark. 562/547 = 3% increase; 530/525 = 1% increase. I'm assuming I can retro-fit connectors.

For the 88H I see you can actually buy .562/.580 dual bore slides, meaning the slide bore is bigger than the valve bore. Not that necessarily means much in the case of the 3b, but at least it seems feasible to use a bigger slide. I know the only proof would be to try it out though.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... pipes-.php">https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/trombone/accessories/trombone_custom_and_replacement_parts/products/sku065861-conn-62h88h-series-sl6280-trombone-slide-assembly-562580-dual-bore-w3-leadpipes-.php</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

Technically those slides are for the 62h, but are based on the 88h. Used to have an 88h i would sometimes use the 62 slide for lighter single trigger bass stuff in college.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-02-03 9:14 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Thrawn22" post_id="101534" time="1578273786" user_id="3709">
King rotors from what i understand are the bore size of the slide. So a 3Bf rotor section should be .508.

At least thats my understanding.[/quote]
It may be somewhat larger. The "f-attachment the same bore as the slide" philosophy seems to have come from George McCracken.
</QUOTE>

BP Leonard who was a member of the old forum also argued for constant bore. He believed that if the attachment tubing was closer to the slide tubing the valve notes would be useful higher than we usually play them (and of course the consequence of that leads to choosing the G, minor third tuning instead of F.)

davebb · by **davebb** » 2020-02-08 1:12 p.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]So would a 3B+, with its rose brass bell and .525 bore, pass muster in a classical setting?
[/quote]

I have a 3B+/f and a large bore. I play in a lower-grade brass band and love the 3B+ but usually play the large bore.

The 3B+/f is great for the brighter stuff (e.g. covers of big band or rock charts) where the trombone sound can / should cut through. It’s not so fun where the music is more brass-choir oriented where trombones are expected to blend nicely with the euphoniums.

I recall a TTF quote from DJ where he said that the 36 was a little big horn and the 3B+ is a big little horn.

Dave

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3B+ in a classical setting