ta-ta-ka vs ta-ka-ta - triple tongue articulation
- GMB
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Oct 18, 2019
From a young age I'd "learned" to triple tongue using t-k-t instead of t-t-k, but to be honest I'd never practiced it much and had never run into a situation where I needed to play more than a few triplets in a row, at least until I played Lohengrin (there's a section with probably 8 bars of triplets, in the 2nd act IIRC). It's been a while since that little embarrassment, but I now find myself practicing a theme and variations piece with some prolonged sections of triplets again.
Since I'm putting the time into practicing, I figure I might as well finally try to overcome this challenge and learn how to triple tongue properly so I'm thinking of spending some time on Arban exercises. The authors/arrangers (Bowman and Alessi) both prefer t-t-k, with Bowman outright stating it's much smoother at faster tempi. I'll have to see for myself how much time its worth spending on one method vs the other (I want to squeeze out another 5-10 bpm without sacrificing quality), but I'm interested in your experiences, do you find any inherent upside to one variation vs the other?
Since I'm putting the time into practicing, I figure I might as well finally try to overcome this challenge and learn how to triple tongue properly so I'm thinking of spending some time on Arban exercises. The authors/arrangers (Bowman and Alessi) both prefer t-t-k, with Bowman outright stating it's much smoother at faster tempi. I'll have to see for myself how much time its worth spending on one method vs the other (I want to squeeze out another 5-10 bpm without sacrificing quality), but I'm interested in your experiences, do you find any inherent upside to one variation vs the other?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
In any case, you end up playing two Ts next to each other. I find TTK to be a little better if you want the accent to fall on the downbeat, more of a fanfare style. For consecutive triplets, any way (including double tonguing- tkt ktk tkt ktk) works, and is up to you.
- GMB
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Oct 18, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]I find TTK to be a little better if you want the accent to fall on the downbeat, more of a fanfare style.[/quote]
Funny thing, when playing or even just pronouncing w/o the instrument if I go ttk i instinctively want to go ttk-t :D
Funny thing, when playing or even just pronouncing w/o the instrument if I go ttk i instinctively want to go ttk-t :D
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
If you practice making each syllable sound the same it really doesn't make any difference. I find t-k-t awkward because I learned t-t-k.
You may find both to be useful in different contexts.
But in either case I suggest practicing it as d-d-g or d-g-d because it's a shorter tongue stroke, and therefore easier and faster.
You may find both to be useful in different contexts.
But in either case I suggest practicing it as d-d-g or d-g-d because it's a shorter tongue stroke, and therefore easier and faster.
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
From what I've heard, "TTK" is the "old-school" way. Bigger emphasis on each beat. "TKT" is how I taught myself/learned (my teacher said learn either), and I believe it to be easier for lengthy triplet lines, as well as being easier to shape. I feel that I can make TKT more even, but TTK has a great snap for fanfares or isolated triplet figures.
- Neo_Bri
- Posts: 1342
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Another thought. How about da-ga-da-ga? I talk with my students about this. I usually double-tongue over triplets. My triple is good, but nothing has more potential than double-tonguing in terms of pure speed and cleanliness.
I just uploaded this so you can see what I'm talking about. Ignore the video quality. No triple-tonguing was harmed during the making of this! It's all double: <YOUTUBE id="hOBlbHB78iU">[media]https://youtu.be/hOBlbHB78iU</YOUTUBE>
I just uploaded this so you can see what I'm talking about. Ignore the video quality. No triple-tonguing was harmed during the making of this! It's all double: <YOUTUBE id="hOBlbHB78iU">
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The only way that's ever worked for me is T-K-T K-T-K etc. With the Arbans way, I feel like I'm limited my by single tonguing speed and the traditional way is also like a tongue twister. In my unconventional way, my triple tonguing is only limited by my double tonguing speed.
I always end up identifying passages that need triple tonguing and memorize them. It's unnatural no matter what I do, but this works best for me.
I always end up identifying passages that need triple tonguing and memorize them. It's unnatural no matter what I do, but this works best for me.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I learned first as Ta-ka-ta, and like some of the previous posters I did later find ta-ta-ka very useful for single triplets on an upbeat where you want a particularly clean articulation on the downbeat, but ta-ka-ta worked better for me on long runs (probably just because of learning like that first for several years).
However here's a little trick that historical technique can teach us: double tonguing used to be done not with the back of the tongue (I.e. K or G) but rather with a backwards flip of the tip of tongue. Basically the same as a rolled R but with a single roll rather than a sustained or repeated rolling. Italian methods from the 16th up to the 19th century give it as "te-re te-re", the closest approximation for English speakers not used to rolled Rs would be "te-de te-de" (it's not quite the same, as D doesn't make your tongue roll backwards like R). The alternating forwards and backwards strokes of the tongue and the tip of it hitting the roof of the mouth at slightly different places on t and d/r make it possible to go much faster than just repeated single tonguing, yet without using something that is so extremely different from a T as a K.
Now using this idea and combining it with the use of the K/G back of the tongue articulation, you can come up with new versions of triple tonguing that avoid the clumsiness of the two repeated Ts. You could go for example, Ta-da-ka, or Ta-ka-da (possibly replacing the ka with ga).
However here's a little trick that historical technique can teach us: double tonguing used to be done not with the back of the tongue (I.e. K or G) but rather with a backwards flip of the tip of tongue. Basically the same as a rolled R but with a single roll rather than a sustained or repeated rolling. Italian methods from the 16th up to the 19th century give it as "te-re te-re", the closest approximation for English speakers not used to rolled Rs would be "te-de te-de" (it's not quite the same, as D doesn't make your tongue roll backwards like R). The alternating forwards and backwards strokes of the tongue and the tip of it hitting the roof of the mouth at slightly different places on t and d/r make it possible to go much faster than just repeated single tonguing, yet without using something that is so extremely different from a T as a K.
Now using this idea and combining it with the use of the K/G back of the tongue articulation, you can come up with new versions of triple tonguing that avoid the clumsiness of the two repeated Ts. You could go for example, Ta-da-ka, or Ta-ka-da (possibly replacing the ka with ga).
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I do that sometimes as a substitute for doodle which I can't do. I have never able to make it a really clear articulation but it's useful for some things. Triple Ta-ga-da and and duple Ta-da-ta-ga also work.
- quiethorn
- Posts: 204
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I always noticed tabla players seem to get more speed with da-ga-da :mrgreen:
<YOUTUBE id="O2K0ptoYpuc" t="2856">[media]https://youtu.be/O2K0ptoYpuc?t=2856</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="O2K0ptoYpuc" t="2856">
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]... Basically the same as a rolled R but with a single roll rather than a sustained or repeated rolling. Italian methods from the 16th up to the 19th century give it as "te-re te-re", the closest approximation for English speakers not used to rolled Rs would be "te-de te-de" (it's not quite the same, as D doesn't make your tongue roll backwards like R). The alternating forwards and backwards strokes of the tongue and the tip of it hitting the roof of the mouth at slightly different places on t and d/r make it possible to go much faster than just repeated single tonguing, yet without using something that is so extremely different from a T as a K.
...[/quote]
I have wondered if this sort of tongue is Andy Martin's insanely fast single.
...[/quote]
I have wondered if this sort of tongue is Andy Martin's insanely fast single.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
It really depends. For extended triplets it's usually TTK, but honestly I can't think of many pieces where that is required. Unless you're playing John Williams film scores.
I'm sure there are some out there who use TKTKTKTKT for everything, and somehow subdivide it in their brain. Reminds me of a bass guitar player who needed more speed, so he uses THREE fingers, regardless of the subdivision.
I'm sure there are some out there who use TKTKTKTKT for everything, and somehow subdivide it in their brain. Reminds me of a bass guitar player who needed more speed, so he uses THREE fingers, regardless of the subdivision.
- Neo_Bri
- Posts: 1342
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]
I'm sure there are some out there who use TKTKTKTKT for everything, and somehow subdivide it in their brain. Reminds me of a bass guitar player who needed more speed, so he uses THREE fingers, regardless of the subdivision.[/quote]
I'm one of them. See my post with my video above. I do sometimes triple-tongue, but not usually. And I don't always do it just for more speed - I do it for more potential...it just has more potential in every way - so I prefer to do it more or less all the time. But I also acknowledge that it's not comfortable for everyone.
I'm sure there are some out there who use TKTKTKTKT for everything, and somehow subdivide it in their brain. Reminds me of a bass guitar player who needed more speed, so he uses THREE fingers, regardless of the subdivision.[/quote]
I'm one of them. See my post with my video above. I do sometimes triple-tongue, but not usually. And I don't always do it just for more speed - I do it for more potential...it just has more potential in every way - so I prefer to do it more or less all the time. But I also acknowledge that it's not comfortable for everyone.
- GBP
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]If you practice making each syllable sound the same it really doesn't make any difference. I find t-k-t awkward because I learned t-t-k.
You may find both to be useful in different contexts.
But in either case I suggest practicing it as d-d-g or d-g-d because it's a shorter tongue stroke, and therefore easier and faster.[/quote]
This is what I have found in my own playing. The pattern I use depends on the rhythm I am playing.
You may find both to be useful in different contexts.
But in either case I suggest practicing it as d-d-g or d-g-d because it's a shorter tongue stroke, and therefore easier and faster.[/quote]
This is what I have found in my own playing. The pattern I use depends on the rhythm I am playing.
- GMB
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Oct 18, 2019
I found the variety of responses interesting so I decided to stick with what sort of works (tkt/dgd) and managed to work the speed up, so now it's just a matter of staying concentrated if it's an extended passage.
On a side note, I haven't picked up all the syllables used but I wonder if this could be incorporated in brass playing even though it's impressive as is <YOUTUBE id="iurhjlBum0o">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iurhjlBum0o</YOUTUBE>
On a side note, I haven't picked up all the syllables used but I wonder if this could be incorporated in brass playing even though it's impressive as is <YOUTUBE id="iurhjlBum0o">