8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
Is there any difference between the Conn 8HT and the 8HLT bells? Im working under the assumption they're the same thing just wirh different designations and both were meant to be like the old elkhart bells.
Is my assumption correct or am i just an ass?
Is my assumption correct or am i just an ass?
- castrubone
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
You're right. When the thin bell was first introduced it was called "LT" for a brief time.
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
Someone else may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Gen II 88H bells all have soldered rims, while the the Elkhart bells were all unsoldered. I know my Gen II 62H has a soldered rim.
- castrubone
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
Yeah they're all soldered. The LT or T only refers to the weight. Thinner in the style of the old Elkhart bells, but with soldered rim.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
How does the soldered bell affect the sound vs. the unsoldered?
- castrubone
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
[quote="castrubone"]Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general[/quote]
That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.
That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.
- castrubone
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="castrubone" post_id="102170" time="1578863766" user_id="3020">
Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general[/quote]
That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.
</QUOTE>
I hear a big difference out in the hall. I also think unsoldered actually gives more feedback to the player, but it's subtle.
Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general[/quote]
That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.
</QUOTE>
I hear a big difference out in the hall. I also think unsoldered actually gives more feedback to the player, but it's subtle.
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
How can you hear a big difference out in the hall if you're the one playing?
I have recorded concerts, and the difference in articulation out front between my 42 and 88H is almost imperceptible compared to the difference behind the bell.
I have recorded concerts, and the difference in articulation out front between my 42 and 88H is almost imperceptible compared to the difference behind the bell.
- castrubone
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
As you mentioned in your post, recording. A 42 and 88 are so radically different in so many ways other than the rim that it's not a fair comparison.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
Depending on the hall you can hear your sound great or not at all when playing.
- Steve335
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I had a 88HT and I now play on a new Elkhart 88H.
I found the thin bell T dented a little too easy, and for me , although it had life at quieter dynamics, I prefer the louder dynamics of the regular bell. It’s all subjective though, no wrong or right, just what suits you.
I found the thin bell T dented a little too easy, and for me , although it had life at quieter dynamics, I prefer the louder dynamics of the regular bell. It’s all subjective though, no wrong or right, just what suits you.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
We need a little more clarity on the soldered vs. unsoldered bell rims topic. Unsoldered bell rims give the player much more feedback in volume of sound and particularly in articulations. The sound is “wider” so it comes back to the player more. Most players feel that articulations are immediate (have more “pop”) and can be controlled to a high level. A common criticism of unsoldered rims is that the sound doesn’t make it to the back of the concert hall. However, that never seemed to be a problem for Joe Alessi!
Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.
Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]We need a little more clarity on the soldered vs. unsoldered bell rims topic. Unsoldered bell rims give the player much more feedback in volume of sound and particularly in articulations. The sound is “wider” so it comes back to the player more. Most players feel that articulations are immediate (have more “pop”) and can be controlled to a high level. A common criticism of unsoldered rims is that the sound doesn’t make it to the back of the concert hall. However, that never seemed to be a problem for Joe Alessi!
Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.[/quote]
I honestly feel like it's the opposite... But ehhh if this thread is an example of anything it's all subjective anyways!
Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.[/quote]
I honestly feel like it's the opposite... But ehhh if this thread is an example of anything it's all subjective anyways!
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
For a while I owned a 1969 Elkhart 88h and a ~2005 8HT at the same time (I've since sold the 8h, due most likely to temporary insanity). To me the 88h is the standard by which I rate everything else, and the 8HT was right up there. Between the lack of the extra weight and restriction of the valve and the solder around the rim, the two horns were clearly related, and I loved the 8HT for the same reasons I loved the 88H. They are both lively and nimble horns with a great colorful sound. They have both been standard orchestral and chamber music hardware for as long as they've existed.
I also owned a regular GenII 8H with the newer heavier bell, and thought it was kind of hard to steer, less lively, more like a 42b. Didn't like it at all, especially compared to the Elkie.
I also owned a regular GenII 8H with the newer heavier bell, and thought it was kind of hard to steer, less lively, more like a 42b. Didn't like it at all, especially compared to the Elkie.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Yes mrdeacon, I agree with you and apologize if my post sounded too hardline. Sound creation and sound perception are very personal things. My perceptions of soldered vs. unsoldered rims do somewhat match the descriptions that I see in the literature for instruments like Shires and Edwards. However, I have noticed that those descriptions are quite, hmmmm.....vague and ambiguous. This is for good reason. We all interpret the different options in instruments as impacting our playing in different ways.
Let's agree that we live in a wonderful time when we can share our experiences and our perceptions of playing. On the Conn 8/88H bells alone, the options (Elkhart, Gen2 yellow bells, Gen2 red bells, thin bells vs standard weight, by golly....I know a guy who prefers his Abilene vintage over his Elkhart vintage) are overwhelming. However, we need to appreciate that these options give us the opportunity to experiment and find what works best for us as individuals.
Let's agree that we live in a wonderful time when we can share our experiences and our perceptions of playing. On the Conn 8/88H bells alone, the options (Elkhart, Gen2 yellow bells, Gen2 red bells, thin bells vs standard weight, by golly....I know a guy who prefers his Abilene vintage over his Elkhart vintage) are overwhelming. However, we need to appreciate that these options give us the opportunity to experiment and find what works best for us as individuals.
- fantrombone
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Apr 01, 2018
I also owned a regular GenII 8H with the newer heavier bell, and thought it was kind of hard to steer, less lively, more like a 42b. Didn't like it at all, especially compared to the Elkie.
Hard to steer is a good comparison of the 8h against the 8hT.