New Rath valve?

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-01-13 10:58 a.m.

Just saw a pic of what appears to be a new Rath "rotary" type valve. Saw nothing on their website. Anyone know anything?

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-01-13 11:27 a.m.

From Facebook. New valve for his new R6 model. <FACEBOOK id="10220531867636578" type="p" user="1529790148"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/1529790148/pos ... 36578/?d=n">https://www.facebook.com/1529790148/posts/10220531867636578/?d=n</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-01-13 2:14 p.m.

I don't know enough about valve design to know how this differs from a normal rotor. Is it the angles of entry?

Also interested to see what the R6 turns out to be.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-01-13 2:48 p.m.

I think it's just Mick wanting to make his own valves and not having to source Rotax anymore. Same as Edwards recently.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-01-13 3:52 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I think it's just Mick wanting to make his own valves and not having to source Rotax anymore. Same as Edwards recently.[/quote]

You're probably right.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2020-01-13 4:03 p.m.

The R6 was explained to me as being a new instrument that is designed to appeal to symphony players, and that this valve and a few other unique design elements (such as a tuning slide brace) were towards that end. I don't believe it's intended to replace any of the existing valve options. And while it's a Rath-branded valve, I'd be surprised if the valve itself were manufactured at Rath.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-13 4:40 p.m.

Looks like what Thein calls "star valves".

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-01-13 9:29 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]From Facebook. New valve for his new R6 model. <FACEBOOK id="10220531867636578" type="p" user="1529790148"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/1529790148/pos ... 36578/?d=n">https://www.facebook.com/1529790148/posts/10220531867636578/?d=n</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>[/quote]

I don't really know why, but I love schematics and mock-ups. It's so exciting!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-01-13 9:48 p.m.

[quote="bbocaner"]And while it's a Rath-branded valve, I'd be surprised if the valve itself were manufactured at Rath.[/quote]

Even if they aren't manufacturing them themselves, there's no licensing or other costs like with Rotax. Just paying another shop to make their own design. Rotax are crazy expensive.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-01-13 9:53 p.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]I don't really know why, but I love schematics and mock-ups. It's so exciting![/quote]

Control yourself, Brian! :pant:

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-01-13 10:54 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Neo Bri" post_id="102344" time="1578968944" user_id="50">
I don't really know why, but I love schematics and mock-ups. It's so exciting![/quote]

Control yourself, Brian! :pant:
</QUOTE>

It's so weird. It's a thing I noticed fairly recently. I just love schematics! Anyway - back on topic. Sorry!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-01-13 10:59 p.m.

Looks like the tubing going into the ports is nice and straight

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-01-14 7:53 a.m.

Just read on FB that these valves will be an option on their basses in the future.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-01-14 9:59 a.m.

These look similar to the Kanstul CR (controlled resistance) valves.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-14 10:06 a.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]These look similar to the Kanstul CR (controlled resistance) valves.[/quote] I think these are solid core valves though. The CR valves are somewhat hollow on the inside, and aren't milled out from a solid piece of brass like most rotors.

I am going to guess that the smooth approach in the knuckles is key, and it looks like those little "divots" between the ports are probably for internal venting, somewhat like the valve that Yamaha uses on their 822OR.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2020-01-14 10:16 a.m.

Does it look like the valve casing is milled out of a single block of metal rather than being a short section of tubing with ports machined in and knuckles brazed in place? That would be a pretty novel innovation and would explain why the whole valve looks so "chonky," as my daughter would put it.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-14 1:22 p.m.

[quote="bbocaner"]Does it look like the valve casing is milled out of a single block of metal rather than being a short section of tubing with ports machined in and knuckles brazed in place? That would be a pretty novel innovation and would explain why the whole valve looks so "chonky," as my daughter would put it.[/quote] It definitely looks like it. With the wonders of CNC machining it's pretty easy to make just about anything, repeatedly, with computer accuracy. As long as the blades are kept in good shape. We'll have to wait and see, but it definitely looks like it will be interesting.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-01-14 2:42 p.m.

I'm hoping they are not CR valves.

JonTheCadet · by **JonTheCadet** » 2020-01-14 5:44 p.m.

I think it looks more like this...

<LINK_TEXT text="https://shop.voigt-brass.de/en/MASTER-I ... 88-FO.html">https://shop.voigt-brass.de/en/MASTER-INSTRUMENTS/TROMBONES/VOIGT-free-flow-VALVE/Bb-F-Tenor-Trombone-J-188-FO.html</LINK_TEXT>

I find it interesting that not only has Rath made a new valve design, but he has dedicated a whole new line of tenor trombones to this valve - the R6. I spotted a few changes, and perhaps you can find more:

-Single-radius (less square-y), braced tuning slide, no R logo

-Braced attachment

I guess this is Rath's concept of an improved 88H. Conns are generally more favourable than Bachs in the UK (vice versa trumpets). I've met a few conservatoire students and most of them play 88Hs of different vintage - I've only met one who plays a Shires with a 2RVE bell. Perhaps soon Rath will launch an R7 bass trombone with 62H aspects - who knows.

Again, that is all a speculation.

'I wish I can afford it' Jon

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-15 11:33 a.m.

That's interesting, but there definitely is an "88h" market in the UK, that's for sure, thanks to Denis Wick.

Though, Conn's definitely Do have a dual radius tuning slide, though not quite as dual radius as the Rath tuning slide.

These are the "star valves" which THein uses sometimes:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... valves.php">https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/07-24-2-thein-star-valves.php</LINK_TEXT>

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-01-15 6:07 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]That's interesting, but there definitely is an "88h" market in the UK, that's for sure, thanks to Denis Wick.

Though, Conn's definitely Do have a dual radius tuning slide, though not quite as dual radius as the Rath tuning slide.

These are the "star valves" which THein uses sometimes:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... valves.php">https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/07-24-2-thein-star-valves.php</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Yeah, well...show me the schematics! ^_^

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-01-15 6:38 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]That's interesting, but there definitely is an "88h" market in the UK, that's for sure, thanks to Denis Wick.

Though, Conn's definitely Do have a dual radius tuning slide, though not quite as dual radius as the Rath tuning slide.

These are the "star valves" which THein uses sometimes:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... valves.php">https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/07-24-2-thein-star-valves.php</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Stomvi has a similar design. The X port shape doesn't have a lot to do with the internals, though.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2020-01-15 7:16 p.m.

yes, thein star valves have that X shape to the way the ports come out of it, but it's very much made like a traditional valve. I think burgerbob is right that this does outwardly look very similar to the stomvi titan valve.

To me, Rath R4(F) has always played like an 88h. Yes, the tuning slide and slide crook are squared off waaaay more than you'd see on an 88h or even a 42b, but it does have a certain Conn vibe to it.

Rath R3 feels a lot more like a Bach 36 to me, though, even though it shares some components in common with the R4. And the small-bore Raths feel similar to Bachs for sure.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-01-15 10:35 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Stomvi has a similar design. The X port shape doesn't have a lot to do with the internals, though.[/quote] I wonder what the inside of the Stomvi looks like. It's definitely a large valve. Looks a bunch larger than the Meinlschmidt "Open Flow" valves, which also have some straighter approach angles for the knuckles.

The walls of the Rath design look pretty thick. Are rotor casings usually that beefy?

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2020-01-15 11:07 p.m.

There's a video on the stomvi valve here: <YOUTUBE id="pNa3f7-OOXo">https://youtu.be/pNa3f7-OOXo</YOUTUBE>

It has some similarities but appears to have some differences as well.

The big difference about the rath valve is that the first little bit of the "knuckles" seems to be machined into the casing rather than being a bent tube that is brazed in.

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2020-02-29 4:53 a.m.

And here's the real thing................ :pant:

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-02-29 2:54 p.m.

Looks NICE.

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New Rath valve?