Db bass trombone!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-28 4:40 a.m.

Im sure some of you here have seen my wild tangent of a prototype, but for those that havent, here's what i have been busy with.

I went ahead and made a prototype for a more compact bass trombone, pitched on Db, where there is about a foot and a half less tubing. Now small enough to be a carry on, the horn has the same sound as a Bb bass bone in the low register, and a slightly different, yet still clearly a bass trombone sound higher in its range.

Some of the benefits have been, a shorter slide, making the distance between position smaller, keeping 7th position, but making it usable for the folks who have a hard time reaching it. As the horn is lighter and shorter there is, a reduction in hand fatigue. Since there is less tubing, there is also less resistance at the mouthpiece. It is noticeably easier to make note at any part of your range speak clearly.

I have yet to add valves, or the tuning in slide, but both will be fairly soon. I will be adding 2 dependent valves in a Db/Bb/Gb configuration, so the user is familiar with 3 of the 3 keys.

Heres some photos and videos!

<YOUTUBE id="FjkFG_C1M0U"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjkFG_C ... e=youtu.be">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjkFG_C1M0U&feature=youtu.be</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2018-06-28 9:00 p.m.

So, a couple of inches shorter than this?

~~[url]~~https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=5592

I’d seriously consider clocking the valve to have it stand in Bb and use it as an ascending valve. No thought required to drive it then.

Cheers,

Andy

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-28 9:21 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]So, a couple of inches shorter than this?

~~[url]~~https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=5592

I’d seriously consider clocking the valve to have it stand in Bb and use it as an ascending valve. No thought required to drive it then.

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

Yes, 6 roughy. That would completely defeat the point of the horn. People are completely capable of learning a new key, it really isnt that hard.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2018-06-28 9:22 p.m.

This is pretty interesting.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 4:12 a.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]This is pretty interesting.[/quote]

Thanks! I will take a series of in depth videos once it's finished, but unfortunately the real benefits can only be experienced by playing it. I do a lot of play it for 3 mins, switch to my Bb horn, play for another 3, and so on, to compare. It may sound odd to say, but i find myself preferring the Db horn, both in overall sound, and ease of use. I think other players may have similar results.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-06-29 6:18 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]People are completely capable of learning a new key, it really isnt that hard.[/quote]

True, but who wants to think that hard? Asking folks to learn a whole new key just to determine whether they like a new horn or not is a risky proposition from a marketing perspective.

Having the "home" key in Bb gives people a familiar foundation to build from. The ascending valve is a great idea for many reasons, it didn't fly with Gunter Frost's horns in the '90's probably mostly because they were built in the German style, which is out of fashion everywhere but Germany.

I built mine (https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082) using a "standard" style bass bone, I had considered cutting it to Db, but decided on C because it gave me a nice trill valve and preserved as much as possible the cylindrical/conical ratio of a standard bass bone, especially since it has independent valves. The combination of both valves gives a flat G tuning, similar to Bollinger 2nd valve, which gives some convenient alternates.

Also the length of the bell is unaltered, so it can be swapped out for other bells without permanently altering them.

Just food for thought, I admire your innovative spirit!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 7:13 a.m.

Thanks, but making it a Db horn is what makes it so interesting, not to mention gives it a fantastic tone. The whole point is, this is a different, more efficient instrument, think tubas of different keys. They all have different virtues, and people take the time to learn them.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-06-29 7:36 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]think tubas of different keys. They all have different virtues, and people take the time to learn them.[/quote]

Tubas are in different keys to fill the gaps in the range (and tonally) they are called on to play (mostly for historical reasons).

As far as I can tell there is no gap between Tenor & Bass trombone needing to be filled.

Besides, we all know tubists are a little nuts, and probably like to learn new tunings just to make the oom pahs a little less boring!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 7:40 a.m.

Sure, but theres no denying its a different key to learn, and there is a difference in sound between a BB tuba and an F tuba for example, which is the point im making. Why they exist pretty much doesn't matter in my example.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2018-06-29 8:27 a.m.

I like the idea. Maybe Bb isn't the ideal pitch for a trombone.

Or, maybe the bore, or the fixed bell has something to do with the response.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 10:01 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]I like the idea. Maybe Bb isn't the ideal pitch for a trombone.

Or, maybe the bore, or the fixed bell has something to do with the response.[/quote]

Its very interesting to play, in a good way. Im waiting til valves are fitted to film more, since i want to record a whole mess of stuff that requires it.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2018-06-29 10:13 a.m.

It's just one step below an alto, right? (assuming alto in Eb, I know they were made in other keys)

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 10:38 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]It's just one step below an alto, right? (assuming alto in Eb, I know they were made in other keys)[/quote]

Yep

doctortrombone · by **doctortrombone** » 2018-06-29 11:28 a.m.

OK--I'll start by saying that it drives me nuts when people raise theoretical objections to the various project horns I've built.

That said--here are my theoretical objections to the project horn you've built:

You've removed the bell-tuning mechanism. That's a great first step. The addition of cylindrical tubing in the bell section was one of the great compromises in sound that happened when we moved from no tuning slide or TIS as the norm to TIB as the norm.

By removing that extra cylindrical tubing, you've changed the ratio of conical to cylindrical. To get that back, you'd need to lengthen the slide, not shorten it. Of course, the amount of cylindrical tubing is going to change every time you move the slide, but the current ratio seen in modern trombones seems like a good compromise, and the compromise around which that particular horn was designed.

I notice in the video that the notes don't speak well when the slide is in the upper positions. You don't seem at ease until you get to the test note--at the very end of the slide's extension. Is that an accurate observation?

I also wonder whether changing the = to < ratio changes the partials. Does the horn still play in tune with itself, or do you have to use the slide to adjust your intonation as you cycle through partials? I know--adjusting slides for every partial is something that can be learned, and tubists tend to be quite adept at it--still, it seems like a pretty hefty compromise for a reduction in size and weight.

I said above that my objections were theoretical, but they're actually based in experience. Last year, I built a similar horn in GG, (or thereabouts,) using a bass trombone slide and a marching euphonium bell with an added tenon joint. Like yours, it had a far more conical than tubular profile. l found that it played poorly unless the slide was fully extended, and that the partials were not well lined up.

The solution--a truly frightening idea--would be a "TIS/Quadro" slide. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I don't even want to think about the complexities in aligning something like that, especially if it got dropped.

The build looks great, and maybe the physical product completely overcomes the theory, but if I'm wrong about the above I'd like to know it, since it negates a lot of the theory that I apply when making frankenhorns.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 11:46 a.m.

[quote="doctortrombone"]OK--I'll start by saying that it drives me nuts when people raise theoretical objections to the various project horns I've built.

That said--here are my theoretical objections to the project horn you've built:

You've removed the bell-tuning mechanism. That's a great first step. The addition of cylindrical tubing in the bell section was one of the great compromises in sound that happened when we moved from no tuning slide or TIS as the norm to TIB as the norm.

By removing that extra cylindrical tubing, you've changed the ratio of conical to cylindrical. To get that back, you'd need to lengthen the slide, not shorten it. Of course, the amount of cylindrical tubing is going to change every time you move the slide, but the current ratio seen in modern trombones seems like a good compromise, and the compromise around which that particular horn was designed.

I notice in the video that the notes don't speak well when the slide is in the upper positions. You don't seem at ease until you get to the test note--at the very end of the slide's extension. Is that an accurate observation?

I also wonder whether changing the = to < ratio changes the partials. Does the horn still play in tune with itself, or do you have to use the slide to adjust your intonation as you cycle through partials? I know--adjusting slides for every partial is something that can be learned, and tubists tend to be quite adept at it--still, it seems like a pretty hefty compromise for a reduction in size and weight.

I said above that my objections were theoretical, but they're actually based in experience. Last year, I built a similar horn in GG, (or thereabouts,) using a bass trombone slide and a marching euphonium bell with an added tenon joint. Like yours, it had a far more conical than tubular profile. l found that it played poorly unless the slide was fully extended, and that the partials were not well lined up.

The solution--a truly frightening idea--would be a "TIS/Quadro" slide. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I don't even want to think about the complexities in aligning something like that, especially if it got dropped.

The build looks great, and maybe the physical product completely overcomes the theory, but if I'm wrong about the above I'd like to know it, since it negates a lot of the theory that I apply when making frankenhorns.[/quote]

Hate to break it to you, but your theory is way off. Everything overall speaks way easier on the Db horn. Higher, lower, mid range, all of it. The Db horn can also play at a higher dynamic than the Bb horn without breaking up. Take a listen on a high quality set of headphones once more. As far as tuning, every partial in the same position is slightly more in tune than my Bb bass. I have found that every "theory" that has been thrown in my face as to why this wont work has been utter hogwash.

This horn, overall, i find to work better than a Bb horn. If i didnt have a sentimental attachment to it, id put it up for sale once this Db horn is complete. Again, i don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Even with detailed recordings people will doubt unless they try it themselves. I mean after all, how is it horn makers didnt come up with it already? I wish knew, but all i can say is in real world application, this is a significant improvement over what is available.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2018-06-29 12:12 p.m.

But...........

Okay it sounds good to my ears, but I didn't have good headphones available.

But if that method of shortening works so well, why does not that apply to the alto? I think most of us would say the alto, while it can obviously be played very well, has some limitations>

Not trying to criticize your project, just trying to learn from your experience.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 12:18 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]But...........

Okay it sounds good to my ears, but I didn't have good headphones available.

But if that method of shortening works so well, why does not that apply to the alto? I think most of us would say the alto, while it can obviously be played very well, has some limitations>

Not trying to criticize your project, just trying to learn from your experience.[/quote]

As it was put to me, sometimes a half step makes all the difference. This is roughly a foot longer than an alto. I kept it as long as possibly while still fitting in a case as a carry on for airlines. I was able to make it work at Db, and didnt keep going to Eb specifically because it works extremely well at this point. Why tept fate further if i met all my requirements? Also this is a .562 bore, and a bass bell at 9.25" it has about as much in common with an alto as a trumpet does.

doctortrombone · by **doctortrombone** » 2018-06-29 12:26 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]

Hate to break it to you, but your theory is way off.[/quote]

It's not my theory. It's more Mahillon's, with support from centuries of "natural selection" from builders who experimented with these ratios. But hey--if you figured out something that improves every single variable with no trade-offs, more power to you.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 12:31 p.m.

[quote="doctortrombone"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="62480" time="1530287180" user_id="3393">

Hate to break it to you, but your theory is way off.[/quote]

It's not my theory. It's more Mahillon's, with support from centuries of "natural selection" from builders who experimented with these ratios. But hey--if you figured out something that improves every single variable with no trade-offs, more power to you.
</QUOTE>

Never underestimate the power of sheer dumb luck! Sounds like i should sell these then! Haha

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2018-06-29 12:45 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]

Hate to break it to you, but your theory is way off. Everything overall speaks way easier on the Db horn. Higher, lower, mid range, all of it. The Db horn can also play at a higher dynamic than the Bb horn without breaking up. Take a listen on a high quality set of headphones once more. As far as tuning, every partial in the same position is slightly more in tune than my Bb bass. I have found that every "theory" that has been thrown in my face as to why this wont work has been utter hogwash.

This horn, overall, i find to work better than a Bb horn. If i didnt have a sentimental attachment to it, id put it up for sale once this Db horn is complete. Again, i don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Even with detailed recordings people will doubt unless they try it themselves. I mean after all, how is it horn makers didnt come up with it already? I wish knew, but all i can say is in real world application, this is a significant improvement over what is available.[/quote]

To be half fair to the detractors (from the FB threads if anybody wants to go searching), the commentary there was around cutting this to Eb, and they are still pretty much correct. You won't get this horn to Eb without killing the bell section or losing slide length, both of which can fundamentally distort the sound of the horn (as the maker of an Eb bigger horn, can confirm these). There were many comments that C would work, and has been shown by manufacturers to work, so it is little surprise that removing the tuning slide length and a slight slide trim to get to Db works.

My point about standing the horn in Bb is 1)Familiarity. No need to reconfigure much. Heck, all you would need to do is make two different stop arms, one for standing Bb, one for Db, moderately easy with your machining skills. 2) Now you do not have to care that there is no tuning slide on the Db side. Heck, we make tradeoffs on the double valve tunings all the time Bb/F/Gb/D isn't "exact" on all four combinations without compensation, similarly this with the double, but instead of the attachment being the compromise, here it is the "open" horn, but as the horn stands in Bb, you can tune and learn like normal.

Can't wait to see/hear this thing with valves. I would love to see a couple of recordings, play the same thing several times with random selection of the horn... See if any of the critics can properly categorize each horn (heck, I doubt most people could with this level of recording and playback, ever try that test on different sampling rates?).

Cheers,

Andy

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 12:51 p.m.

Just to be specific. I didnt just remove the tuning slide. I took 12.5 inches out of the bell section. I got lucky i found a bell the worked perfectly, but would be terrible as a bell for a Bb bass.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-06-29 1:00 p.m.

I think I may have mentioned this to you in one of our e-mails but in case I didn't and for the benefit of everyone potentially reading this it might be worth putting out there:

So obviously the ratio of conical to cylindrical tubing has been mentioned. I totally believe that the Db is easier to play than a Bb in a lot of ways. I observe that largely every time I play an instrument in a higher key compared to a lower one myself. Interestingly, I did like my 36H for that reason, although I ended up selling it because I did have some issue making it sound like a tenor, even on the Bb side. BUT the rest of the horn was designed to be an alto, not a tenor, so that isn't terribly surprising.

The other side of that coin is that, and I infer this because of the similarities between the Bb and Eb sides of that horn, is that when you do add a Bb attachment, my suspicion is that it will play similarly to the Db side. Fortunately, you've designed this to be a bass and didn't use smaller parts as all of my 'experiments' and frankenhorns that have been in the similar vein have.

The rotor you are using would actually make it relatively easy to make it go either way, although the direction of the valve would be reversed. In other words, you could add a second arm to the valve and make the default in Bb and the other in Db so that the user would be able to switch between the default 'side' of the horn with a few minutes and a screw driver.

I also concur with the indication that most people wouldn't be able to hear the difference if they weren't looking with their eyes. I think I also mentioend this in the FB group but I'll also repeat that here. I think the Db side sounds a touch brighter but so did my Duo Gravis compared to most other basses, yet it was still clearly a bass sound. If you were to do side by side: "Real" bass, Db side, Bb side and play them exactly the same way, well, I'd be really interested in trying that myself. I know I give myself a lot more ability to discern than is probably warranted ;)

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2018-06-29 1:24 p.m.

Small point:

Tubas play in many different keys (as do trumpet players). However, all of those instruments use the same valve system, with some added valves on some tubas. Nothing needs to be relearned except the odd 5th or 6th valve. Only the way you read with those same valve combinations has changed.

A whole new slide position map is another thing altogether. I'm going through this currently on F contra, which isn't impossible just because I am used to playing on the F side of my bass.

Db is also an odd place- it's a minor 3rd away from Bb and a major 2nd from Eb, meaning the relationship of the key of the instrument to the music played on it is usually going to be pretty strange.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-06-29 1:47 p.m.

That was my point above, from a pure marketing perspective, a Bb tuned horn has a potential market of 100% of trombone players worldwide. Anyone can pick up this horn & take it to the gig on day 1 of owning it. A Db horn has a market of whatever the number of people willing to take a risk & spend time re-training their innate instincts, which I suspect is a MUCH smaller number.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-06-29 1:49 p.m.

I think I still prefer Pete Edward's C/Bb/F arrangement. https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082

Maybe because it was fully formed when I first saw it, maybe because the base horn in Bb with ascending valve is really brilliant. I'm not sure why OP is resistant to the ascending valve. Getting a low C and B as pedal tones is a big benefit, without giving up 1st position pedal Bb.

Bass trombone in Db solves a problem that didn't exist. Pete billed his as a mini bass bone, which makes sense to me. Adding the screw bell made it even better. The only thing I'd do that Pete didn't do would be to add TIS.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-06-29 2:20 p.m.

After 20 years on a dependent using the 2nd valve only for C&B, it wasn't too hard to re-learn those notes in 1st & 2nd. For me, I use the C side pretty much only for those 2 notes, so TIS would add weight to the slide only for the benefit of 2 notes, I didn't think it was worth it since my goal was weight reduction.

I'm using this horn in 2 weeks on Haydn Creation, the trill valve comes in very handy. Also the g-g octave jumps are more secure when I play the high g in 1st on the C side. I have a tendency to overshoot that note & the fact that the partials are a bit further apart helps lock it in.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2018-06-29 2:53 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Just to be specific. I didnt just remove the tuning slide. I took 12.5 inches out of the bell section. I got lucky i found a bell the worked perfectly, but would be terrible as a bell for a Bb bass.[/quote]
Yes, compared to a Bb horn, but I was comparing it to the Frost horn.

I'm also really curious where you sourced the flare, since I have never measured one that makes that taper rate to that diameter ~16 inches from the rim, and I've measured a lot of readily available trombone parts. The Edwards slide shown is what 1.020" or so OD at the tuning slide leg?

Cheers,

Andy

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-29 3:06 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="62488" time="1530291097" user_id="3393">
Just to be specific. I didnt just remove the tuning slide. I took 12.5 inches out of the bell section. I got lucky i found a bell the worked perfectly, but would be terrible as a bell for a Bb bass.[/quote]
Yes, compared to a Bb horn, but I was comparing it to the Frost horn.

I'm also really curious where you sourced the flare, since I have never measured one that makes that taper rate to that diameter ~16 inches from the rim, and I've measured a lot of readily available trombone parts. The Edwards slide shown is what 1.020" or so OD at the tuning slide leg?

Cheers,

Andy
</QUOTE>

Well that'll have to be my little secret, since thats likely the missing link for anyone who would want to reproduce it :D

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-06-30 6:01 a.m.

Well, valves should get here today, along with a fun customer project. I am still figuring out how i want to set them up, but once its all here i can really play. Im pretty sure i am going to do the Db/Bb/Gb, especially since it makes so much sense, but i may throw a curve ball into how the valves are actuated. It makes way more sense to actuate the master with the finger lever, and the slave with the thumb. Not only will the linkages work better, but i can likely keep it where your thumb goes over the cross brace instead of having to move it. Personally, i much prefer it that way, otherwise i tend to put too much pressure on the thumb valve linkage. This way you maintain a central balance point, and less "holding the horn" vs "resting the horn" takes place.

Im sure im turning someones world upside down with this idea, but im slowly starting to realize bass trombones are a long list of compromises, and nothing is ideal. For example. Why is it the first valve is normally actuated with the thumb? Because players usually come from f attachment tenors, and its easier for them to learn. Why are horns in Bb? Because someone decided it was a good place to put it, and im sure something to do with concert pitch ( which i really dont care about) . The bottom line is a bass trombone is a different instrument than a tenor, and it should be treated that way. And if that means having to relearn some things to be a better musician on a more ideal horn, then so be it.

Here is a brief list of issues a bass trombone has, which i am resolving with this horn.

Slide is to long for some players to reach every position

Horn is heavy, causing hand fatigue

Horn is long, adding to hand fatigue, and transportation issues

Holding the horn without putting pressure on valve linkage or slide is difficult

There is significant resistance blowing through the open horn at the mouthpiece, making notes, particularly at the end ranges, difficult to have speak clearly

Length of the instrument makes it less than ideal for many playing settings, easy to hit the tuning slide or slide and damage the instrument. This is more true for the tuning slide, since players rarely think about the distance needed behing them.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-06-30 8:47 a.m.

I'm not sure I agree with all your premises, although I like the fact that you are trying something different. I don't have a prejudice one way or the other. Having had to learn instruments in Bb, CC, Eb, F, and G means that it's just a matter of getting used to the new setup.

We have had bass trombones in G, F, and Eb. Often with a handle to work the very long slide. They were cumbersome at best, but we learned to use them.

Why is a trombone always in Bb? Because most brass instruments are in Bb. I will say that having an Ab instrument makes the "tune up" in Bb most concert bands do rather approximate. Much like the tuning to A in orchestra.

I'm reminded of Byron McCollough, former bass trombone of the Pittsburgh Symphony, saying he took up bass trombone because he "had no 6th or 7th position". McCollough was "vertically challenged".

Keep us posted on how this works out.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2018-06-30 9:16 a.m.

If you haven’t seen one, check out a haynor grip. Not sure if that is the correct spelling, but much improved ergonomics for valve actuation.

Also, I seem to remember a few old TTF threads where I was stared at oddly for suggesting that the trombone is really only a 5 position instrument based on reach length. 6th and 7th would never pass ergonomic reviews for manual work in manufacturing, why do we do it for fun?

Cheers,

Andy

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-06-30 9:50 a.m.

Just read everything in treble clef down 2 octaves & add three sharps, and you'll be fine!

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2018-06-30 10:30 a.m.

I think this is an interesting idea and I'd love to try it sometime. That being said, here are a few thoughts. Mostly playing Devil's advocate here.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Im sure im turning someones world upside down with this idea, but im slowly starting to realize bass trombones are a long list of compromises, and nothing is ideal. For example. Why is it the first valve is normally actuated with the thumb? Because players usually come from f attachment tenors, and its easier for them to learn.[/quote]

More because before having two valves, the bass only had one, which was thumb-activated. The traditional design does also make sense ergonomically I find, though. One's thumb is typically much stronger than one's medius. The thumb is also more independent to the rest of the hand. It kind of makes sense to use your thumb for the valve you use most. If the main valve was on the medius, I for one know my hand would cramp up like crazy.

[quote="BGuttman"]Why is a trombone always in Bb? Because most brass instruments are in Bb.[/quote]
That is actually not correct, as trombones have had the same length of tubing long before other brass instruments had valves and thus a fixed fundamental.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Why are horns in Bb? Because someone decided it was a good place to put it, and im sure something to do with concert pitch ( which i really dont care about) .[/quote]

Well I know you said you don't care about it, but you still asked the question. Trombones were originally in A for the tenor, basses in D, sometimes E and occasionally F. There have been both tenors and basses pitched in G. Altos in D. Having A and D as the most common fundamental for the family made a lot of sense in the era of modal music. The pitch trombones were required to play at shifted down by about a half-step in the 1700s, and because they kept using the same physical equipment instead of everyone getting new trombones, suddenly trombones that had been in A, D and E were now in Bb, Eb and F, with basses in Eb and F being abandonned eventually.

[quote="Jgittleson"]The bottom line is a bass trombone is a different instrument than a tenor, and it should be treated that way. And if that means having to relearn some things to be a better musician on a more ideal horn, then so be it.[/quote]

There is plenty of precedent for trombones in all sort of keys. And between modern instruments and historical ones, I already need to play in Bb, Eb, F, A, D, E, C and Gb. If it means having a horn that is more adapted and easier to play, I agree, I don't think the difficulty of learning a new key should be a factor. It's really, really not that hard. It probably takes less time to learn a new key than simply getting used to the feel and response of new horn if you commit to it, actually.

That being said, I'm still not sure I see the logic of having a bass pitched higher than the tenor.

Concerning the list of issues you mention, I can't help but notice that several of them apply to tenor as well (in some case they apply even more such as 6th and 7th position being too far), so are you suggesting making shorter tenors too? And the weight and ergonomics issues stem directly from modern trombones being so big and fat and heavy. And getting even bigger and heavier is still very much a tendency. So I think we're missing a broader point here. Maybe our obsession with big, fat, dark and loud sound and thus with increasingly huge and heavy equipment (with also means increasingly bad ergonomics) is the real problem here, in which case, isn't this bass in Db also just a compromise? :shuffle:

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-06-30 11:03 a.m.

The problems mentioned were at least in part a reason for the development of the Yamaha 350-C, a C trombone with a Bb attachment used in an ascending mode. The basic Bb instrument only needs 5 positions because the valve allows a near 6th and 7th. A number of us have reversed the 350-C valve so it's a C trombone with the Bb attachment. Might even be an interesting instrument if it were a C instrument with a G attachment. I could envision such an instrument being very valuable in orchestral music where there are mostly sharp keys (and the C trumpet has become the go-to instrument for the trumpet players).

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-06-30 11:51 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Might even be an interesting instrument if it were a C instrument with a G attachment. I could envision such an instrument being very valuable in orchestral music where there are mostly sharp keys (and the C trumpet has become the go-to instrument for the trumpet players).[/quote]

One of the design features of my mini-bass is I can "un-reverse" the Bb valve & swap the valve tuning slides & it becomes a C/G/A/F tuning, or a whole step higher than the common Bb/F/G/Eb.

I thought it might appeal to tubists who are used to thinking in CC & want to double on bass bone.

I haven't played it that way other than initial testing, because when I play I don't want to have to think any more than required, it kinda kills the musical mood.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-01 5:35 a.m.

Well ups faked me out, valves tomorrow. I guess there's no need to say how eager i am for them to get here. Got some big plans for this little guy.

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2018-07-01 9:33 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Im sure im turning someones world upside down with this idea, but im slowly starting to realize bass trombones are a long list of compromises, and nothing is ideal. For example. Why is it the first valve is normally actuated with the thumb? Because players usually come from f attachment tenors, and its easier for them to learn.[/quote]

As only an occasional amateur player I don’t quite like to contradict you, but there are many points that bug me.

There is a reason why the trigger is actuated by the thumb. The thumb, in most type of grip, is quite free and does not carry any load; the load is born by either the thumb joint, the palm, or the middle and ring finger. The index finger has to maintain the longitudinal rotation of the horn. So it is reasonable to put the trigger there. And why make something different when it works for both? Even the bass trombone is in another exotic keys like Ab or something like that, the same reason still applies.

And the reason (or at least one of the reasons) that F, Eb, and G bass disappeared is because their part can be played with Bb trombone with F-attachment, so you don’t have to learn new slide positions and you don’t have to buy trombones in every key. People rich enough to buy many horns is quite a recent phenomenon.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Slide is to long for some players to reach every position

Horn is heavy, causing hand fatigue

Horn is long, adding to hand fatigue, and transportation issues

Holding the horn without putting pressure on valve linkage or slide is difficult

There is significant resistance blowing through the open horn at the mouthpiece, making notes, particularly at the end ranges, difficult to have speak clearly

Length of the instrument makes it less than ideal for many playing settings, easy to hit the tuning slide or slide and damage the instrument. This is more true for the tuning slide, since players rarely think about the distance needed behing them.[/quote]

The length and the slide length is the same for both tenor and bass. Closed wrap solves the problem of tuning slide. Resistance is more relevant to the ratio of conical and cylindrical sections and also valves. And it may be just my type of grip, but almost no load is transferred to the trigger linkage for me. It is more of a balancing issue than the actual weight issue.

My thought is, like many before me: add a Bb rotor and make it adjustable.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-01 11:32 a.m.

[quote="sirisobhakya"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="62528" time="1530352887" user_id="3393">
Im sure im turning someones world upside down with this idea, but im slowly starting to realize bass trombones are a long list of compromises, and nothing is ideal. For example. Why is it the first valve is normally actuated with the thumb? Because players usually come from f attachment tenors, and its easier for them to learn.[/quote]

As only an occasional amateur player I don’t quite like to contradict you, but there are many points that bug me.

There is a reason why the trigger is actuated by the thumb. The thumb, in most type of grip, is quite free and does not carry any load; the load is born by either the thumb joint, the palm, or the middle and ring finger. The index finger has to maintain the longitudinal rotation of the horn. So it is reasonable to put the trigger there. And why make something different when it works for both? Even the bass trombone is in another exotic keys like Ab or something like that, the same reason still applies.

And the reason (or at least one of the reasons) that F, Eb, and G bass disappeared is because their part can be played with Bb trombone with F-attachment, so you don’t have to learn new slide positions and you don’t have to buy trombones in every key. People rich enough to buy many horns is quite a recent phenomenon.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Slide is to long for some players to reach every position

Horn is heavy, causing hand fatigue

Horn is long, adding to hand fatigue, and transportation issues

Holding the horn without putting pressure on valve linkage or slide is difficult

There is significant resistance blowing through the open horn at the mouthpiece, making notes, particularly at the end ranges, difficult to have speak clearly

Length of the instrument makes it less than ideal for many playing settings, easy to hit the tuning slide or slide and damage the instrument. This is more true for the tuning slide, since players rarely think about the distance needed behing them.[/quote]

The length and the slide length is the same for both tenor and bass. Closed wrap solves the problem of tuning slide. Resistance is more relevant to the ratio of conical and cylindrical sections and also valves. And it may be just my type of grip, but almost no load is transferred to the trigger linkage for me. It is more of a balancing issue than the actual weight issue.

My thought is, like many before me: add a Bb rotor and make it adjustable.
</QUOTE>

You're not understanding my reasoning, but thats ok, because i don't agree with yours :o

This is one of those cases where i already know what I'm doing, and why I'm doing it, so sit back, hang on, and enjoy the ride!

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2018-07-02 7:17 a.m.

I’ve followed this without commenting on FB, and I do have a genuine question: Why are you looking for criticism and feedback and then immediately disagreeing with it when it doens’t line up with what you’re looking for?

I’ve played a lot of actual F bass in an early music group I directed, so I’ve got some time behind a long bass trombone. The modern bass, which is a compromise instrument to begin with, does not sound like an F bass. Frankly, it sounds better above :bassclef: :line4: than a long bass for most things. That’s kind of the point of the Bb/F/whatever bass. With the valve engaged it’s an F bass, without it’s a tenor.

Your bass doesn’t sound like an F bass either, but it also doesn’t sound like a modern bass. Bore size, bell, and mouthpiece can’t compensate for a lack of tubing or for a proper cylindrical-conical ratio. :bassclef: :line3: on an F bass has a completely different timbre than the same note on a modern bass trombone, because it’s at a different point in the harmonic series and the length and proportions of the instrument resonate the note differently.

You’ve made a super large alto in Db. Full stop. You can call it whatever you want, and it sounds fine, but in reality you’ve made a trombone that’s shorter than a tenor which must play almost entirely in its pedal register to achieve the bass range. There are .547 altos that sound a lot like your horn. It’s not a “bad” sound, but it absolutely brings a level of brightness that you don’t hear in the longer horns. That’s just what happens when you push the smaller cylindrical tube. You keep bringing up tubas as a proxy, but tubas are still twice as long as what you’re dealing with, and almost entirely conical. When it comes to timbre, size does matter, and I absolutely hear a timbre difference in your horns.

Your horn doesn’t sound bad, but I bet that playing it in a section of large tenors would highlight that brightness I’m talking about. With smaller tenors that might even be a good thing! Pines of Rome? Maybe not. But I wish this conversation could evolve beyond “it does so sound like a bass!” That depends entirely on how one defines a bass.

Matt

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2018-07-02 7:31 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Why is a trombone always in Bb? Because most brass instruments are in Bb. I will say that having an Ab instrument makes the "tune up" in Bb most concert bands do rather approximate. Much like the tuning to A in orchestra.[/quote]

I’ve put a lot of thought into this through the years, and I think the opposite is true: Most brass instruments are in Bb because trombones are in Bb. It’s natural selection of a technical process. Once the trombone and equal temperament collided, you see a standardization of the Bb tenor, and the slow but sure elimination of the fringes. The Eb alto trombone got sidelined because it’s too hard to play in tune without a substantial investment of time and energy. All the alto notes are perfectly playable on the tenor, and practical realities often trump compositional vision in the 18th and 19th centuries. The long basses stuck it out longer in certain corners, but was still dismissed in favor of a Bb instrument.

Bb is the sweet spot. It’s the longest trombone you can make that can average sized person can play and reach all 7 positions. It can function as a bass, tenor, or alto voice in an ensemble. You want a longer horn because that makes the positions farther apart, which in turn makes it easier to play in tune. Bb is Goldilocks.

Matt

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-02 7:46 a.m.

[quote="brtnats"]I’ve followed this without commenting on FB, and I do have a genuine question: Why are you looking for criticism and feedback and then immediately disagreeing with it when it doens’t line up with what you’re looking for?

I’ve played a lot of actual F bass in an early music group I directed, so I’ve got some time behind a long bass trombone. The modern bass, which is a compromise instrument to begin with, does not sound like an F bass. Frankly, it sounds better above :bassclef: :line4: than a long bass for most things. That’s kind of the point of the Bb/F/whatever bass. With the valve engaged it’s an F bass, without it’s a tenor.

Your bass doesn’t sound like an F bass either, but it also doesn’t sound like a modern bass. Bore size, bell, and mouthpiece can’t compensate for a lack of tubing or for a proper cylindrical-conical ratio. :bassclef: :line3: on an F bass has a completely different timbre than the same note on a modern bass trombone, because it’s at a different point in the harmonic series and the length and proportions of the instrument resonate the note differently.

You’ve made a super large alto in Db. Full stop. You can call it whatever you want, and it sounds fine, but in reality you’ve made a trombone that’s shorter than a tenor which must play almost entirely in its pedal register to achieve the bass range. There are .547 altos that sound a lot like your horn. It’s not a “bad” sound, but it absolutely brings a level of brightness that you don’t hear in the longer horns. That’s just what happens when you push the smaller cylindrical tube. You keep bringing up tubas as a proxy, but tubas are still twice as long as what you’re dealing with, and almost entirely conical. When it comes to timbre, size does matter, and I absolutely hear a timbre difference in your horns.

Your horn doesn’t sound bad, but I bet that playing it in a section of large tenors would highlight that brightness I’m talking about. With smaller tenors that might even be a good thing! Pines of Rome? Maybe not. But I wish this conversation could evolve beyond “it does so sound like a bass!” That depends entirely on how one defines a bass.

Matt[/quote]

Ahh well theres the problem, I never asked for criticism, I'm just showing others what I've done. I do not agree with what you are saying. The sounds is virtually the same as my Bb bass in the video i have posted. I have gotten a pethora of feedback saying this, and some even went so far and to have someone "test them" as to which horn they were listening to. Thus far, no one has been able to consistently pick out one from the other. That, is the real test. It all measures that count, this is a higher pitched bass trombone. For everyone who makes the tenor is in Bb argument (weak!) I'll just have to make a Db tenor too wont I? :lol:

Look, this isn't going to be for everyone, I get that. But many people are attracted to it, which is great too. I have gotten overwhelmingly positive feedback on this project, far more than i expected. Im just highlighted something i have come up with, and believe in. If anyone want's to come try it once complete, by all means! If they want one, fantastic! But for the non believers, I'd thank you to kindly reserve judgement til you hear the coming recordings, or try it for youself.

Progress in any field doesn't happen by way of negative criticism, but rather by challenging the status quo, followed objective observation and analysis. There's a lot of people who seem stuck in their little box of rules and conventions for how a horn "should work". Let's get rid of that. Let's just for a minute, pretend there are no rules or preconcieved notions.

I do have to say, i love all doubters out there. Without you, I wouldn't have been pushed to make this and find out how awesome it works!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-02 7:56 a.m.

[quote]

Bb is the sweet spot. It’s the longest trombone you can make that can average sized person can play and reach all 7 positions. It can function as a bass, tenor, or alto voice in an ensemble. You want a longer horn because that makes the positions farther apart, which in turn makes it easier to play in tune. Bb is Goldilocks.

Matt

[quote]

No, it's not. Many of us cannot comfortably reach 7th, some cannot reach it at all. And my Db horn plays ever so slightly more in tune that Bb, with 17.5 inches less tubing. There's also technical benefit to having the positions closer together.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2018-07-02 8:22 a.m.

I suspect Bb (or 9 feet of tubing, either way) is the sweet spot for a particular bore size, and everything else is a more or less acceptable compromise.

We did have a long and contentious discussion of this some years ago.

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2018-07-02 8:30 a.m.

I think it is cool to try new things. Much can be learned and applied to other horns. I have dependent valves on my bass to low C and have seen a horn in C/Bb/F on line from Europe. But never seen one in the wild.

But ultimately the real estate in me guy jumps out and says there can't be more then one buyer for this horn so resale is going to be rough.

Cool horn though.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2018-07-02 9:39 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]

No, it's not. Many of us cannot comfortably reach 7th, some cannot reach it at all. And my Db horn plays ever so slightly more in tune that Bb, with 17.5 inches less tubing. There's also technical benefit to having the positions closer together.[/quote]

And therein lies the challenge. I'm curious: Do you play alto too? I've never found a shorter slide to be more forgiving in terms of intonation or technique. If you play alto at a very high level, your comfort with the shorter slide will obviously be different than mine. And, despite the fact that many of us cannot comfortably reach 7th position, many more of us can, and clearly could through the last 400 years. I can't on an "A' trombone, but I can on a Bb!

I'd be curious to hear you play your horn with others. The instruments in your recording sound very different to my ears (Yanny/Laurel different). I'd love to hear a blow with some classical music and commercial stuff.

Matt

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-02 9:51 a.m.

[quote="brtnats"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="62655" time="1530532614" user_id="3393">

No, it's not. Many of us cannot comfortably reach 7th, some cannot reach it at all. And my Db horn plays ever so slightly more in tune that Bb, with 17.5 inches less tubing. There's also technical benefit to having the positions closer together.[/quote]

And therein lies the challenge. I'm curious: Do you play alto too? I've never found a shorter slide to be more forgiving in terms of intonation or technique. If you play alto at a very high level, your comfort with the shorter slide will obviously be different than mine. And, despite the fact that many of us cannot comfortably reach 7th position, many more of us can, and clearly could through the last 400 years. I can't on an "A' trombone, but I can on a Bb!

I'd be curious to hear you play your horn with others. The instruments in your recording sound very different to my ears (Yanny/Laurel different). I'd love to hear a blow with some classical music and commercial stuff.

Matt
</QUOTE>

I do play alto, i would not say at a high level. I did play bass at a very high level, but that was 13 years ago. Although i do feel my chops coming back, i cannot play like i used to. The air support is simply no longer there. Perhaps given time....

Once the horn is done you will have ample recordings to listen to. Its important to remember though, the point isnt to judge the horn on my ability, or my sound, but rather to use my bass sound as a control, and the Db horn as the variable.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-07-02 4:16 p.m.

I think this is a cool project. Hope to hear more when it is ready.

I wonder how it will look with the valves :good:

/Tom

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-03 6:35 a.m.

Made excellent progress last night, and also made a few decisions that made sense as i went. For starters, everyone keep in mind this is only a prototype. If i didnt get the valve parts on a barter, id be using totally different bends, and valves, but as they cost me $0, and since what I wanted would have been about $1000, i am more than pleased to make do. For the time being, i am going to only put one valve, and i will be testing out various lengths of tubing to nail the desired Db/Bb/Gb setup in the future. That being said, i repositioned the lower brace, and am making a fix thumb rest in a more ideal position. The single valve will be a finger valve. This makes it easy to add a thumb valve when the time comes, and is also a better position for my hand for the time being. Im finishing up my first wrap design now, photos very shortly.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-03 12:21 p.m.

As promised. I tried to get it as compact as i can, i mean thats one of the major features of it. Plus, i am finding more pressure is needed for the real low stuff to belt out nicely, so viola. I have to solder it all up yet, then adjusted the length for tuning, but im diggin it thus far. Not a huge fan of the tight bends, really prefer the nice single radius ones, but i have two bach valve wraps, and decided to embrace the angularity of it all.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2018-07-03 2:22 p.m.

Coming out to be a cute little pocket monster.

Can't wait to hear it,

Andy

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-07-03 4:18 p.m.

The valve for sure alleviates some of the problems some members had in this thread. I'm also curious to hear it!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-03 5:51 p.m.

Thanks guys. I gotta make it longer apart it goes, that got me a flat Ab. Take 2!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-04 5:06 a.m.

Alright, version 2.0. I went as long as i could on the reverse crook, if it needs more ill have to make another tuning slide.

Jgittleson · 2018-07-04 7:37 a.m.

Alright, so that right there is a G valve, slightly flat, easy fix. Going to play it as is once i get the linkage done. Seems to play well, which isn't surprising since it played well before the valve. The closed wrap doesnt have any noticeable effect on the lower register, if anything makes it easier to belt out the real low stuff

The horn itself is still really light compared to my Bb horn, and it fairly well balanced. I doubt ill get time to finish it today, but tomorrow for sure.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-04 9:35 a.m.

looks good so far, but I thought the first valve was to be Bb?

You could've saved yourself a lot of building time & effort by doing the math first.

A Bb horn is approx 108 inches tube length, for every 1/2 step higher, divide by 1.0595 (twelfth root of 2)

For every 1/2 step lower, multiply by 1.0595, so that:

Eb=80.9

D=85.7

Db=90.8

C=96

B=102

Bb=108

A=114.4

Ab=121.2

G=128.4

Gb=136

F=144.2

E=152.7

Eb=161.8

D=171.4

of course, bore, bell size, & taper all adjust these numbers by small amounts but this is close enough to be within a tuning slide's length of in tune. So a Gb crook on a Db horn will be 136-90.8=45.2 inches tubing length. If you made it 42 inches & gave yourself 6" of adjustment (3" per leg) you can't go wrong.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-04 10:12 a.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]looks good so far, but I thought the first valve was to be Bb?

You could've saved yourself a lot of building time & effort by doing the math first.

A Bb horn is approx 108 inches tube length, for every 1/2 step higher, divide by 1.0595 (twelfth root of 2)

For every 1/2 step lower, multiply by 1.0595, so that:

Eb=80.9

D=85.7

Db=90.8

C=96

B=102

Bb=108

A=114.4

Ab=121.2

G=128.4

Gb=136

F=144.2

E=152.7

Eb=161.8

D=171.4

of course, bore, bell size, & taper all adjust these numbers by small amounts but this is close enough to be within a tuning slide's length of in tune. So a Gb crook on a Db horn will be 136-90.8=45.2 inches tubing length. If you made it 42 inches & gave yourself 6" of adjustment (3" per leg) you can't go wrong.[/quote]

That is extremely helpful! Im going to leave it in g right now, i have a better set of valves i will use on the next bell section, this one is just figuring it all out. So for now the 1 valve is will be just fine.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-07-04 11:05 a.m.

On the NEXT bell section. I admire your commitment to this. The only thing I have doubts is the effort to learn a complete new set of positions. It will be as learning the alto or learning the soprano as I'm doing at the moment. Not impossible but time consuming. I'm very interested in your project.

/Tom

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-04 11:45 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]On the NEXT bell section. I admire your commitment to this. The only thing I have doubts is the effort to learn a complete new set of positions. It will be as learning the alto or learning the soprano as I'm doing at the moment. Not impossible but time consuming. I'm very interested in your project.

/Tom[/quote]

Haha thanks. Trust me, once people try it and see im not full of it, they arent going to have a problem with some new positions. Im excited to get video up.

Hit a small snag, had to order a perch for the linkage, thought I had one. I can bend up the linkage in the mean time.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-04 12:38 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Trust me, once people try it and see im not full of it, they arent going to have a problem with some new positions. Im excited to get video up.[/quote]

The skeptic in me has a hard time with claims like that before the horn is even finished being built.

It would have to be pretty radically better to get me to break 40 years of training my brain to what is now just instinctual. I look forward to hearing more musically relevant samples.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-04 1:27 p.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="62802" time="1530719109" user_id="3393">
Trust me, once people try it and see im not full of it, they arent going to have a problem with some new positions. Im excited to get video up.[/quote]

The skeptic in me has a hard time with claims like that before the horn is even finished being built.

It would have to be pretty radically better to get me to break 40 years of training my brain to what is now just instinctual. I look forward to hearing more musically relevant samples.
</QUOTE>

I played it a bit without the linkage, enough to get an idea of the sound quality.

Jgittleson · 2018-07-05 5:59 a.m.

Did a little clean up early this morning. I'm not going nuts on it just get, since its possible i may end up changing something. I also bend up a couple of linkage options. Once the post get here ill see what works best.

Schlitz · by **Schlitz** » 2018-07-06 12:02 a.m.

Keep it going. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Nice work!!!

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2018-07-06 4:16 a.m.

Is the ability to sustain lower notes improved at all over a Bb/F horn?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-06 5:44 a.m.

[quote="Schlitz"]Keep it going. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Nice work!!![/quote]

Thanks, fully intend to. The list of players interested in one keeps growing, so i must be onto something :lol:

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-06 5:46 a.m.

[quote="Pre59"]Is the ability to sustain lower notes improved at all over a Bb/F horn?[/quote]

Once i have linkage on and really play around i will give you feedback on that. Im inclined to say its about the same, but i want to be able to operate the horn completed before i definitively answer.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-07-06 2:41 p.m.

Sorry I'm having trouble doing the math in my head... Db+G=?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-07 7:19 a.m.

Im not sure i follow. Horn is in Db, and when the valve is open it is in G.

Since the valve was about 10 cents flat with the tuning slide all the way in, im chopping .5" off the crook ends so its tunable. Also making a couple of bullet style braces. I should have the finish all done this weekend. So only the linkage perch is on the waiting list. A friend is helping me source the parts to do the tuning in slide, and at the same time i have to take .5" off the slide again for tunability. Right now its almost exactly in tune. Im probably going to have someone do the final assembly on the slide, so the alignment is absolutely perfect. I have no desire to sit there and screw with it until its right, too much of a pain!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-07 9:58 p.m.

Bell is all finished. Cut the tuning slide, put a satin finish on it, just 1 perch and its complete. Ill be refinishing the slide while i wait. It came out mich nicer than i imagined, ill take photos with daylight tomirrow.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-08 7:11 a.m.

Well. Bell is all finshed nice

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2018-07-10 12:41 p.m.

Great Job. The horn looks beautiful and sounds just as good on the video.

I don`t know why everyone is SOOOO worked up. You made a horn for yourself as a fun project. Came out great.

No one is forcing this instrument on anybody to play.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-07-10 2:50 p.m.

Looks nice! :good:

/Tom

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2018-07-10 2:57 p.m.

I think this is awesome. Brass instruments in abnormal keys are cool. And if it fits as a carry-on, well...that makes it worth it alone.

I will admit, if I had one that stood in Db (and not Bb ascending) I would want the valves proportioned the same as a normal bass (4th/3rd, so Db/Ab/A) judging by how much contras in F/D/Bb totally wreck my brain. But that's a personal deficiency, not the horn's. I can learn a different key much easier than a different valve configuration.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-10 7:12 p.m.

Mini update. Now that i have a wotking valve, the horn is immensely fun to play. The sound is really fantastic, will have to get a video done quickly. And most importantly, the 1 valve for me at least is sufficient. Rather than go on and on about it, ill get to recording.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-11 6:47 a.m.

[quote="dukesboneman"]Great Job. The horn looks beautiful and sounds just as good on the video.

I don`t know why everyone is SOOOO worked up. You made a horn for yourself as a fun project. Came out great.

No one is forcing this instrument on anybody to play.[/quote]

Thanks! Im still new at this, and getting the details right is really, really, challenging.

I have to tweak the linkage a little, then i will be flooding the internet with videos. While that video was to show the low stuff is there, im looking forward to just showcasing the beautiful sound of the horn.

Im guessing some people are getting worked up because I'm essentially taking the "rules" of hornbuilding and tossing them in the trash. Others because i have mentioned I intend to produce these. Either way, i am firmly convinced people need to play it to understand. Between the way the horn resonates, to the feel at the mouthpiece, it's a very interesting experience I'm not sure i can describe.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2018-07-11 7:44 a.m.

It would be really interesting if the double pedals spoke well.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-11 8:55 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]It would be really interesting if the double pedals spoke well.[/quote]

I want to say they dont, but i should probably say they dont for me. That being said, my double pedals dont speak well on my Bb horn either, but they are better on the Db horn. Im guessing that a better player could belt them out.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-12 9:58 p.m.

I got to play for close to 3 hours today. For starters, i now have a decent double pedal range. Getting seat time on the horn led to some adjustments to the hand position. I shortened the thumb rest, and lowered the lever pivot to shorten the throw. It could probably still go lower, but its way better now.

Most of my time was playing solo stuff, and just getting more familiar with the positions. While its an active process learning where every note is, i was able to get much more accustomed to it. While i can play it just fine, id wager it would take a couple of weeks playing every day for it to be 2nd nature.

I will take a shot at some videos early next week, I really need the week to just work on my own playing, its been a long time.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-13 2:35 p.m.

Cleaned up the linkage area, and turned a nice finger rest

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-13 5:29 p.m.

Interesting. So this is a single valve instrument with the valve actuated by your finger (middle?)?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-13 5:55 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Interesting. So this is a single valve instrument with the valve actuated by your finger (middle?)?[/quote]

Yup! I vastly prefer it that way with a single valve, i like having my thumb to grip with.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-07-13 6:05 p.m.

That's one unique bastrombone you've got there :good:

/Tom

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-14 7:14 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]That's one unique bastrombone you've got there :good:

/Tom[/quote]

Thanks! A little adjustment here and there, and it'll be exactly what i hoped for. After more playing, I'm finding the positions to be much more comfortable, although my instinct to do the Db/Bb/Gb was bang on. This version works, but id found several situations where the double valve would be perfect. The single valve obviously forces the player to use the natural positions a lot, which i know many people prefer.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-15 8:24 a.m.

Did a hair more tweaking. I needed my hand back just a tiny bit, and the thumb lever was digging into my hand a little, so 2 birds, 1 stone. In case anyone is wondering, I used 1/2" brass for the trigger and thumb rest. Extremely comfortable, yet quick and easy to turn on my lathe. I would have looked better if i machined the decorative rings into the same end of each piece, but i opted for function over form, and put them on the end of each where it would not be touching my fingers. The the tumb rest is soldered on, and the trigger cover is just in place, pending adjustment. I will probably put a couple of set screws in it for further adjustment.

The only other thing i may want is a counter weight, so i may try to machine an interesting one.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-16 5:15 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="YMNE6Xu1VPE">https://youtu.be/YMNE6Xu1VPE</YOUTUBE>

Another little comparison. Next ones will be just the Db horn. Its surprisingly hard to go back and forth.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-16 7:25 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="fjd5QbbCW8Q">https://youtu.be/fjd5QbbCW8Q</YOUTUBE>

One more

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-16 10:22 p.m.

What I'd really like to hear is how it blends with a pair of Bb tenors (or maybe in a 4 part choir). There is something a bit different in the base tone of this instrument and I simply ask if it will work as the low voice in an ensemble.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-16 10:55 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]What I'd really like to hear is how it blends with a pair of Bb tenors (or maybe in a 4 part choir). There is something a bit different in the base tone of this instrument and I simply ask if it will work as the low voice in an ensemble.[/quote]

Well, i have a couple of things in motion where you will get to hear it in an ensemble fairly soon. I honestly like the sound of it better than my Bb bass. I know i am probably not the best player to be showcasing it, but i will keep working on getting my playing back up to par to show it off better.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-18 2:49 a.m.

In recent news I have set up a few appointments for my prototype to be tried out, and have started getting everything together for the 2nd bell section with 2 valves. Im 90% certain i will make them dependent, but i will see how it goes. While i really enjoy the single g valve, there will be a lot more utility to the horn in the Db/bb/gb configuration.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-18 7:47 a.m.

I hope whomever tests it out listens with ears rather than eyes. I like the sound of your new invention, but it is different. Better? Can't say for sure.

I think the last Db instrument in regular use is the Db piccolo. It's been generally replaced by the C piccolo. I have no idea why, but I can probably guess.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-18 8:21 a.m.

It was tested by someone whose opinion i hold in very high regard yesterday, and he observations were very much in line with my own. The low range sounds every bit as good, mid range has a beautiful vocal like quality, and upper range is far far easier to play. Playing a Db scale up to high Db is almost effortless, with a strong centered sound. His actually comment was "that's about the easiest Db scale I've ever played." He agreed the mid and high register are a little brighter than some bases, but certainly within the range of tone one expects from a bass trombone.

He too thought adding a 2nd valve would have a lot of benefits, but the single valve did do the job just fine. He was also gracious enough to donate a battered old bach 50 to the cause for my 2nd bell prototype, which is good because funds are getting low!

The next test i have scheduled is for next friday, and this will likely be a very comprehensive review.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2018-07-19 8:24 a.m.

My ears like your mid and high sound very much. It may be that we are entrained on the sound of a long bass in that range, thinking what we have always heard must be normal and correct.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-19 10:51 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]My ears like your mid and high sound very much. It may be that we are entrained on the sound of a long bass in that range, thinking what we have always heard must be normal and correct.[/quote]

:good: thanks! It really has some great sound, hard for me to explain, but easy to understand hearing it in person.

So this just happened :D

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-20 12:28 a.m.

Just waiting on tuning slide and bell now, then I'll solder it all up.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-23 7:22 a.m.

Ok had to revisit the whole thing, and now we're good!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-24 2:17 p.m.

Alright, final design. Lengths are good, now just need a bell.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-24 8:17 p.m.

Cleaned up the solder. Tonightvill get the valves cleaned up, tomorrow the bell, thuraday linkage. Possibly playable for friday.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-24 10:06 p.m.

I would probably have had the secondary valve loop go above the plane of the bell tubing so if you decide you want a longer secondary loop you have room to expand.

Are you planning to use that Bach 50 bell you were working on?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-25 5:07 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I would probably have had the secondary valve loop go above the plane of the bell tubing so if you decide you want a longer secondary loop you have room to expand.

Are you planning to use that Bach 50 bell you were working on?[/quote]

Gb with both valves is just fine, and if not, well i have my ways lol. I basically used the same tuning as a 50b2 just up a minor 3rd. The tuning is really inconsequential, as i can make it anything someone would want. What i am after is just finding a good design, and overall playability. I like the G valve on the other prototype, but the ear is very used to Bb/F or in this case Dd/Ab, so I'm trying to make this part more intuitive. Having the full step down to Gb is the minimum to give the player a full chromatic range, and again, most bass players as comfortable with a Gb valve. Overall, if someone were to want to learn this horn, a week of diligent practicing gets your head in the game, and one more week if they don't want to have to think about positions. .

Nope, it doesnt use a standard bass bell, the taper is all wrong. I guess this part is my little secret haha.

As far as the corporation bell, a friend of mine is an excellent sheet metal fabricator, so he and I and going to see how perfect we can get it. I got it very close using nothing more than a torch, my hands, and a wooden dowel that i turned a unique shape onto each end. I have no use for it, so once its cleaned up i guess ill sell it.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-25 9:30 a.m.

prediction:

1st valve slide will need to be pulled 3" to get Ab, 2nd slide will be pulled 1" to get Gb.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-25 9:39 a.m.

I measured it out, the main slide needs a 1 inch pull or so, the 2nd, about half an inch. Of course, numbers and reality are sometimes off.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-25 9:41 a.m.

I stand by my prediction

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-25 10:38 a.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]I stand by my prediction[/quote]

Lol! Ill post a video with a tuner just for u :pant:

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-25 12:43 p.m.

Decided to knock out some bracing while i wait for the bell. Just have to make the last one.

Jimprindle · by **Jimprindle** » 2018-07-25 5:12 p.m.

Can't say I am 100% with the concept, have to hear it, play it, etc. But I am 100% behind your ambition to experiment and try something new. All the pictures show you are an accomplished brass technician. I love watching the progress of your endeavor and I wish you success.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-26 6:09 a.m.

[quote="Jimprindle"]Can't say I am 100% with the concept, have to hear it, play it, etc. But I am 100% behind your ambition to experiment and try something new. All the pictures show you are an accomplished brass technician. I love watching the progress of your endeavor and I wish you success.[/quote]

Thank you! I completely agree, the proof is in playing it.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-27 4:48 a.m.

Houston , we have a bell!

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-27 7:45 a.m.

correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the larger side of your MTS goes right into the taper of the bell stem rather than a cylindrical tube- like this:

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-27 8:10 a.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the larger side of your MTS goes right into the taper of the bell stem rather than a cylindrical tube- like this:[/quote]

That is correct. It is one nice, beautiful, continuous taper.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-27 8:25 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]That is correct. It is one nice, beautiful, continuous taper.[/quote]

A bit unconventional, and certainly not what would be called "continuous taper", but if it works, more power! I would suspect it may leak a bit (especially with a practice mute) since it only really seals at the entry point.

Have you considered TIS, & making it truly a continuous taper?

Looks good- I like the valve wrap especially.

Jgittleson · 2018-07-27 8:29 a.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="64144" time="1532693434" user_id="3393">
That is correct. It is one nice, beautiful, continuous taper.[/quote]

A bit unconventional, and certainly not what would be called "continuous taper", but if it works, more power! I would suspect it may leak a bit (especially with a practice mute) since it only really seals at the entry point.

Have you considered TIS, & making it truly a continuous taper?

Looks good- I like the valve wrap especially.
</QUOTE>

Thanks! I played with about 20 different styles before i landed on that- it has the added benefit of only needing to be braced to itself. With those 3 braces it is very, very stiff, i can't see it needing more than that. I was kinda going for like an industrial conduit panel kinda thing with all the offsets there.

Ok I'll be more specific. From the tuning slide bow through the bell it is a continuous taper, even in the ferrule. Right now it cant be tuned (valves can) but yes i am putting tuning in the slide, working on parts. Oh. Wait!!!! No. Thats not whats going on. Theres no cylinder in the bell, i remove that, and have the bell going right into the ferrule.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-27 8:32 a.m.

Heres the proof

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-27 8:37 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Ok I'll be more specific. From the tuning slide bow through the bell it is a continuous taper, even in the ferrule. Right now it cant be tuned (valves can) but yes i am putting tuning in the slide, working on parts. Oh. Wait!!!! No. Thats not whats going on. Theres no cylinder in the bell, i remove that, and have the bell going right into the ferrule.[/quote]

OK that makes sense now, I saw the tube in previous photos. TIS is the way to go then. You may also want to consider a tapered tube in the neck pipe, a good source for one might be a section of trumpet bell stem.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-27 8:40 a.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="64146" time="1532694595" user_id="3393">
Ok I'll be more specific. From the tuning slide bow through the bell it is a continuous taper, even in the ferrule. Right now it cant be tuned (valves can) but yes i am putting tuning in the slide, working on parts. Oh. Wait!!!! No. Thats not whats going on. Theres no cylinder in the bell, i remove that, and have the bell going right into the ferrule.[/quote]

OK that makes sense now, I saw the tube in previous photos. TIS is the way to go then. You may also want to consider a tapered tube in the neck pipe, a good source for one might be a section of trumpet bell stem.
</QUOTE>

Thats a really good idea! Right now theres just 3 steps between the id of the valve (.593) and the tubing there, where i had to use 3 tubes soldered together to get it to all fit nicely. I can only see your suggestion improving the horn.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2018-07-27 9:54 a.m.

The neckpipe from a single valve or dependent valve bass might also do the trick. When building horns, I hate to have to do any double wall tubing as it makes for discontinuities in the taper.*

The lack of tuning of the open horn isn't a problem on a proof-of-concept horn, but for anything that I would play in public, I think you'll find you need one. This was one reason I was suggesting doing the valve as an ascending valve. It matters less that the valve tuning slides move than the main tuning slides. I rarely move my valve tuning sides from the set relation to the main, but the main moves all the time based on weather and humidity.

Cheers,

Andy

*side note: I am not certain there is any data to suggest that discontinuities are inherently bad. I would posit that they could be rather good, if placed in the correct location, but that requires math and trial to validate.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-27 10:31 a.m.

Yeah, i wasnt too worried about it, that part of the horn is sitting on your shoulder, and since that's where a tuning slide usually is, it's typically double walled anyhow. And yes, once i have the parts the slide is getting cut another .5" for room to tune, and TIS hardware added.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-27 10:38 a.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]*side note: I am not certain there is any data to suggest that discontinuities are inherently bad. I would posit that they could be rather good, if placed in the correct location, but that requires math and trial to validate.[/quote]

I agree this can be a useful technique for taming certain notes or partials, particularly for our valved cousins that don't have handslides with the ability to easily adjust every pitch. there are always compromises in this approach and it is very tricky. With trombones I've always had more luck & better results by removing discontinuities.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-28 2:22 a.m.

So i went into Manhattan yesterday for the horns to get some testing, met up with a talented Juilliard senior at Carnegie hall. He really liked the horn, most of his criticism revolved around his personal preferences as a player, such as preferring a brass slide rather than nickel, a longer sterling leadpipe, stuff like that.

To me, that is ultra positive, because if the player is going right to "tweaks" like that, it implies the horn is very close to the sound he expects from a horn. I should mention, he is a strong orchestral player, and looks for a very particular sound. He felt as is, the horn would work very well in a big band setting, since its generating that wall of sound you want for that style of playing.

We both agreed once getting below pedal F, there starts to be a difference between the horns, and getting into the upper ledger lines, again there is a difference. This isnt really surprising, as it is a slightly higher instrument. I think the best comments of the day was after about 90 mins of comparision he says, " I'm starting to think i shouldn't be comparing this to the Bb bass, but rather just playing it and looking at it as its own category, separate from each other. This way, i can just focus on what i like about it as its own type of horn, rather than using my horn as a baseline for what a bass tromboe should sound like." I liked this because i decided this myself as well. At a certain point, it doesnt make sense to keep trying to make it like a Bb horn. But just look at it as its own veast, and just figure out what yous prefer to olay on it over a Bb horm.

We also agreed, having passed the solo test, playing it in a section is the next logical step. I will be going back in about a month, when everyone is back for the semester, to do just that. It this points i intend to get some recordings of it. Also, i decided next time i will start off playing it with others in a quintet setting, then playing as a section, because a lot of time was lost learning positions. This also made comparision more difficult, since when the player isnt confident in playing the instrument, they clearly play it differently.

Im pretty sure i can hold my own with them to get some good recordings, and as i am very comfortable on the horn (ive stoped playing Bb bass alltogether) it will provide a better example for recording purposes. After that, i will hand the horn over and let them have at it.

Overall, I'd call this a success. It was well recieved, did what it was supposed to, and left a good impression. Can't ask for more than that from a prototype. For the hell of it i brought the Double valve even though its not done. I did a little different voodoo on that bell, and it did play a little differently, he liked it a lot more than the single value for his playing preferences.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-28 2:44 a.m.

Oh and Pete, 2.5" and 3/4"

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-07-28 5:17 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Houston , we have a bell![/quote]

It looks very nice :good:

/Tom

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-28 5:49 a.m.

This is where the "rubber meets the road". Like Jim Prindle, I'm on the fence as to whether it's an improvement or not, but I also am very interested in how your testing goes. It could be a great development. Or another dead end in the tree of improvements like Davis Shuman's bent slide.

I'm not sure if the C approach or the Db approach is better. I know you went to Db for size considerations related to air travel.

Good luck with this phase. Have you gotten some triggers for the double valve?

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-28 7:13 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]a lot of time was lost learning positions. This also made comparision more difficult, since when the player isnt confident in playing the instrument, they clearly play it differently.
[/quote]

This was my only caveat all along. An unfamiliar key & positions makes it difficult to judge a horn out of the box, especially how its going to play with others. This may be the best horn you've ever played, but if your plans are to market this design you may have an uphill battle because no one can pick this up & sight read on it.

Personal preferences of players will also come in to play particularly if you have only one source for the non-standard bell.

Take this not as criticism but advice from an experienced market researcher (in a completely unrelated field)

I was kinda close on my prediction, where's my video?

Congratulations & best wishes on continued success!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-28 7:17 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]This is where the "rubber meets the road". Like Jim Prindle, I'm on the fence as to whether it's an improvement or not, but I also am very interested in how your testing goes. It could be a great development. Or another dead end in the tree of improvements like Davis Shuman's bent slide.

I'm not sure if the C approach or the Db approach is better. I know you went to Db for size considerations related to air travel.

Good luck with this phase. Have you gotten some triggers for the double valve?[/quote]

Well thats the beauty of what i made. The magic is in the bell. It can be used with different slixe lengths to be C, Db, D or Eb without an issue. I happen to like it in Db, as it happens to be really in tune, the slightly shorter slide gives people like me that have shorter arms command of the full slide, and it also meets my size requirement. No linkage yet. I make it from scratch out of straight rod and a torch. I will probably futz with it tomorrow.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-28 7:20 a.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="64200" time="1532758943" user_id="3393">
a lot of time was lost learning positions. This also made comparision more difficult, since when the player isnt confident in playing the instrument, they clearly play it differently.
[/quote]

This was my only caveat all along. An unfamiliar key & positions makes it difficult to judge a horn out of the box, especially how its going to play with others. This may be the best horn you've ever played, but if your plans are to market this design you may have an uphill battle because no one can pick this up & sight read on it.

Personal preferences of players will also come in to play particularly if you have only one source for the non-standard bell.

Take this not as criticism but advice from an experienced market researcher (in a completely unrelated field)

I was kinda close on my prediction, where's my video?

Congratulations & best wishes on continued success!
</QUOTE>

Ahhh, but once i am making the bells, bends, etc, problem solved!!! Sure. Impressions can be a little tougher, but no one who has tried it thus far particularly cared. Rather, they thought writing a book to go with it to learn the horn would be useful. Yes you were, im wondering where the spy camera is! Hahahaha let me finish this bell and i will make one.

peteedwards · by **peteedwards** » 2018-07-28 7:27 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]im wondering where the spy camera is! Hahahaha let me finish this bell and i will make one.[/quote]
As you said:
[quote="Jgittleson"]Well that'll have to be my little secret, :D[/quote]

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-28 7:56 a.m.

[quote="peteedwards"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="64209" time="1532776836" user_id="3393">
im wondering where the spy camera is! Hahahaha let me finish this bell and i will make one.[/quote]
As you said:
[quote="Jgittleson"]Well that'll have to be my little secret, :D[/quote]
</QUOTE>

Lol!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-30 2:36 p.m.

My buddy cncd me out of a jam with the valves

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-01 6:17 a.m.

Been playing the horn a little, havent had the time to do the linkage, but may get it going today. I added one more brace under the valves, made a huge difference when playing with the tuning slides. Oh and i actually took a tape to them. Ab slide gets pulled 2.25" and the Gb 5/8". In the future i may make a different slide for the Ab with some funky loop or something, i dont like having to pull it that far.

So yeah, linkage, a lot of finish work, and thats it. I'm really looking for more and more people to try the horns out, the feedback has been very helpful. Im finding that strictly orchestral players have more difficulty believing in its ability to blend with a group, all around players don't seem to have mich concern, and big band guys are like , 'why would i want to blend? I want to blow away the rest of the band, this seems like it'll do it fine :lol: '. Keep in mind even though i used to play everything and anything, my opinion is on the big band persuasion :D

In case anyone is interested, i will be moving forward with producing these. The double valve seems to be the flavor of the month, so it's likely i will produce it first. There is some patent work i need to finish before i will let any leave my shop, but as I'm looking for 10 preorders before i start the run, and it will take some weeks to get all my tooling in order, i will likely have it all squared away well in advance of the first production model being completed. 3 of the first 10 are spoken for, all of them have tried the horn in advance of reserving one, which i may make a requirement so the buyer knows exactly what they are purchasing.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-07 7:03 a.m.

Been slow, just waiting on 2 more parts. I hope to get back to the linkage this weekend the latest. In the mean time, im trying my hand at repairing the 50b corporation bell that fell into my lap.

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2018-08-09 1:30 a.m.

So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-09 7:13 a.m.

[quote="Molefsky"]So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?[/quote]

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before. I think the name is far less important than the sound, and the experience people have trying it. The single valve has been getting a lot of trial locally, even by one or two skeptics. To their dismay, it played remarkably well for them. I've started working on a site to keep all the info and media of these horns on, figure itd be nice to have it all in once place.

I also started work on a different kind of valve, which once im through the prototyping stages will be something i can offer with this horn. I don't think its ever been done before, but from an engineering standpoint make a ton of sense. But thats all for another day :D

mousedigits · by **mousedigits** » 2018-08-14 12:07 a.m.

This is a really cool project, can't wait to see how it develops! I wonder how feasible it would be to squeeze a second valve in there.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-14 3:00 a.m.

[quote="mousedigits"]This is a really cool project, can't wait to see how it develops! I wonder how feasible it would be to squeeze a second valve in there.[/quote]

You mean independent? I can do it, but the tuning will be difficult.

BrassedOn · by **BrassedOn** » 2018-08-25 9:56 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Maybe our obsession with big, fat, dark and loud sound and thus with increasingly huge and heavy equipment (with also means increasingly bad ergonomics) is the real problem here, in which case, isn't this bass in Db also just a compromise? :shuffle:[/quote]

I’m with the builder here. And I think the process is exactly the kind of process that is followed to reach an innovation. And who cares if others did not see the same problem as a problem to be solved. And who cares if he discovers the 2001st way not to make a light bulb. Tho my guess is he’s on track to his goal for an agile travel bass bone.

And look how tubists went nuts over the recent flood of travel tuba, which is knowingly made as a hard to play not-a-tuba that is not actually viable for 99.9% of actual performance conditions. And his Db horn is playable and responsive. Today’s scoffers will be placing preorders.

And how did we end up with our current configurations? Evolution, which can be messy and produce both the platypus and the 7’ NBA center. Both of whom are a solution to the demands of an environment and successful. And as LeTrombonist describes, evolution might leave us with Neanderthal trombones, too unwieldy or slow to sustain.

As far as the valve set up, yes it is totally possible to learn a new configuration and positions. I think we can be open to the open horn keyed in Db. Why not? The ascending valve idea Bb\Db especially if that is switchable to Db/Bb is a marketing point, and is a consideration for 2.0 maybe. I’m just caught up thinking about all the bass licks I have to play and how each is affected by the tuning, whether it’s some orchestral line or something Nelson Riddle wrote for George Roberts. But that’s not the point of the design.

Great inspiration. And inspires my own thought experiment for a King 3b with F trigger that’s not doing anything in my stable. Bb\Eb ascending? Fun.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-08-25 10:21 a.m.

Agree w/ BrassedOn. OP is modifying my Wessex at the moment which I'm intending as a travel horn. I previously owned a Conn 36H that had the valve reversed. I purchased it because it was reversed but ultimately I actually wanted something pitched in Eb. The Bb side is realy nice though and with a second valve, it's fully chromatic and would basically let me do anything a tenor would in a really compact package. (The whole thing will fit in my Cronkhite alto gig bag).

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2018-08-25 12:23 p.m.

[quote="BrassedOn"]I’m with the builder here. And I think the process is exactly the kind of process that is followed to reach an innovation. And who cares if others did not see the same problem as a problem to be solved. And who cares if he discovers the 2001st way not to make a light bulb. Tho my guess is he’s on track to his goal for an agile travel bass bone.[/quote]

I agree with all your points, and I love how different this is from anything else out there (the closest thing is that ascending C bass also on this forum, but that functions mostly as a normal bass). And I think just calling this instrument a travel bass bone is selling it short. It's a different instrument in a different key with its own sound, that also happens to be nicely sized for travel and able to play parts written for the "normal" bass trombone. It's only a travel bass in the same way that an alto is only a travel tenor. :biggrin:

doctortrombone · by **doctortrombone** » 2018-08-25 1:19 p.m.

[quote="BrassedOn"]

And how did we end up with our current configurations? Evolution[/quote]

Not really. We ended up with our current configurations through intelligent design. :twisted:

Perhaps early on it was a matter of Darwinesque random alterations and "mutation" of standard horns, with some designs meeting the demands of their environment and others not. However, at this point we know enough about the theory of how a trombone works that random mutations (as in nature) will seldom be viable.

[quote="Matt K"]OP is modifying my Wessex at the moment which I'm intending as a travel horn.[/quote]

I'm interested in hearing an objective assessment of how your horn plays after it's cut down. Thus far, we've only heard from the person who is building (and selling) the horn.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-08-25 2:38 p.m.

Well, mine won't be quite the same since it's not starting out as a tenor; it's one of the Wessex 525/547 altos. The bells are really tiny -- they're actually alto bells... I forgot to measure... seems like 7" flare! I was thinking it would be more tenor like given it's slide size but alas... I suppose some might consider it more tenor than say, a Bach 39.

My experience with the Conn 36H is that it also didn't sound like a tenor, even though it was always in Bb. I imagine this horn is also going to be more alto like to me if for no other reason than the bell size. I'm keeping my eyes out for a tenor bell that has a small throat though so that down the road, I might be able to cut it and mount it on this horn. One step at a time though!

Interesting sidenote though, this Db horn is only a half step higher than the YSL350C. If I've tried that horn, its been a long, long time. I'm wondering if I'd b able to detect the difference between a 350C and a 356C (which I also currently own) since they're probably quite. Then what of a 350C that's been cut a half step higher? I'm not convinced I'd notice a huge difference depending on where the tubing is cut. Especially if they were both nominally pitched in Eb.

But at any rate, I'm excited to get my hands on it in the not too distant future!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-25 7:52 p.m.

Sure, ill chime in. I have been fairly quiet about these, but a lot is happening. I have several large demo sessions coming up, and lots of paperwork happening. Looking to have them for sale before the end of the year, and comprehensive set of media to listen to the horn will be available too. First one svheduled is September 9th.

I think everyone who is skeptical should reserve judgement til they try it. Im not going to say i built a better mousetrap, but ill let you say it after trying it out! :)

BrassedOn · by **BrassedOn** » 2018-08-29 4:54 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="BrassedOn" post_id="66187" time="1535205397" user_id="3665">just calling this instrument a travel bass bone is selling it short. . :biggrin:[/quote]

Agreed, I should clarify that the travel aspect is part of "the designers intention". We don't know if the horn will inspire a movement and literature to exploit the qualities of the horn!</QUOTE>

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-09-05 4:31 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="Molefsky" post_id="65119" time="1533792646" user_id="3604">
So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?[/quote]

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before. I think the name is far less important than the sound, and the experience people have trying it. The single valve has been getting a lot of trial locally, even by one or two skeptics. To their dismay, it played remarkably well for them. I've started working on a site to keep all the info and media of these horns on, figure itd be nice to have it all in once place.

I also started work on a different kind of valve, which once im through the prototyping stages will be something i can offer with this horn. I don't think its ever been done before, but from an engineering standpoint make a ton of sense. But thats all for another day :D
</QUOTE>

Do you have plans for a case?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-05 4:51 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="65131" time="1533813190" user_id="3393">

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before. I think the name is far less important than the sound, and the experience people have trying it. The single valve has been getting a lot of trial locally, even by one or two skeptics. To their dismay, it played remarkably well for them. I've started working on a site to keep all the info and media of these horns on, figure itd be nice to have it all in once place.

I also started work on a different kind of valve, which once im through the prototyping stages will be something i can offer with this horn. I don't think its ever been done before, but from an engineering standpoint make a ton of sense. But thats all for another day :D[/quote]

Do you have plans for a case?
</QUOTE>

Yes, pay a company to make them lol.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-09-05 6:12 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="Molefsky" post_id="65119" time="1533792646" user_id="3604">
So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?[/quote]

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before. </QUOTE>

Yamaha calls several models tenor basses, but they are bigger than tenors in some way.

I like the idea, but Pete's idea is more practical. The only differences are a couple inches of tubing and a valve setting. I personally would put a 9" bell, a 547/562 TIS slide, which would make it lighter and more compact, plus usable as both tenor and bass and cover all bases, so to speak.

Anyway, cool project.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-09-05 6:47 p.m.

I believe the tenorbass name came from the fact that tenors used to be in Bb and basses used to be in F, thus it is a tenorbass. But I could be wrong about why they chose that particular name.

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2018-09-06 9:04 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="65131" time="1533813190" user_id="3393">

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before.[/quote]

Yamaha calls several models tenor basses, but they are bigger than tenors in some way.
</QUOTE>

Japan uses German nomenclature with many things, especially in engineering/science and music. Bassoon becomes Fagott, Eb is called Es, etc. So any trombone with F-attachment, even the small YSL-356R, becomes tenorbass trombone (テナーバストロンボーン) as in Tenorbassposaune.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2018-09-06 10:50 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]I believe the tenorbass name came from the fact that tenors used to be in Bb and basses used to be in F, thus it is a tenorbass. But I could be wrong about why they chose that particular name.[/quote]

Close. The term tenorbass actually predates the F valve on a Bb trombone. Early basses were in all sorts of pitches, most often D, or by the 19th century Eb or F (or sometimes G). But a larger Bb instrument (or a regular size Bb used with a larger mouthpiece) was often used to play bass parts, in some places that had become the standard, and it was then called either just bass (such as in the David concertino, technically for bass - although a straight Bb "bass" that would be considered a tenor today) or "tenorbass" to avoid confusion with the true basses pitched in lower keys.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-11 12:37 a.m.

Does anyone remember when i was going to pitch this in Eb? Another slide is on the way, so i may give it a go. If it works, that means this bell can be used with various slide lengths, to achieve C,Db, D, and Eb. Theres no telling what its going to sound like but I'm going to give it a shot. I may stop at D first for kicks.

Tetraphosphate · by **Tetraphosphate** » 2018-09-11 4:59 a.m.

Can't believe i only saw this thread just now -- but this is so awesome!

BrassedOn · by **BrassedOn** » 2018-09-11 9:38 a.m.

I’m very impressed with the wrap of the stack. You’ve hit on an “elegant solution”, which tend to endure.

Earlier there were a couple posts on the idea of a book. That’s a very good idea. I like what alto bone Mike does with his site, books, forum for alto. It is positive in many ways: promoting the alto in general, education, the player and recordings, etc. it’s also marketing. But it does not come off as self serving. Inspires me to get some time on alto. His books include learning the alto and learning jazz, his speciality. I think a great avenue for your new bass animal. As a way to promote the horn as an idea and as a product, the builder and player, and whatever performance niche it creates.

https://www.altobone.com/

Regarding naming the beast, if you at all like “altobass”, you should copyright/register it as a brand name or category name.

I think we are witnessing something new, and nomenclature and branding will matter. And I really appreciate the creator (more than just a builder) letting us in on the creation and creative process.

That being said, what’s in a name? If you’d take a lesson from the tuba world, “It’s a mess!” (A la Marty Huggins). The bass and contrabass are in pretty good shape for names and have a particular meaning regarding key and core tessitura for the horn, even if the composer or arranger don’t know or specify, the tubists can figure out the best tool for the job. Good players can play high on contra or low on bass, but clearly there are pieces where one is right and another is wrong. Up an octave in the tenor horn and baritone horn we see the same, like male voices and some ties to the role the instrument has had. In civil war era music, tenorhorn often has that peck horn role, and American baritone has the euphonium lyrical job. And a lot a lot of confusion because of different traditions in different countries, baryton, fliocornobasso, American baritone, euphonium, British baritone. Then we have “euphonium” that breaks the rules. Lovely name and super use of Greek, but does not place the horn in the tuba family, as others have pointed out. “Euphonium” does tie to the lyrical qualities of the instrument. But a name like “tenor tuba” says where it belongs in the family. The name Euphoinium is kind of stuck, and some distinguish the band versus orchestral instruments, despite the fact that scant excerpts for tenor tuba have been played on euph while other scant excerpts distinctly belong historically to the C tenor tuba. (Literally even a careless lumberjack can count the orchestra works getting played in one hand). Orchestras have tubas and tenor tuba has its spot, regardless of whether a trombone player plays the part.

So what does that mean for the Db Bass Trombone. If called that, someone might expect the fundamental is DDb below the staff. “Altobass” sounds cool but may be ambiguous In terms of the tessitura and role. Is it a bass that plays high or an alto that plays low? Has this horn a hybrid range and role of tenor and bass, tenor bass? That seems to have been taken for over 100 years for a tenor with a valve or large bore tenor. And the role of this Db instrument is not yet known.

Branding and nomenclature matter. Is it a success like Kleenex or a failure like Oboe d’Amore, hautbois (which is an alto oboe of a kind) and English Horn (which is an angled horn not English) just tell me if it is bigger or smaller or rounder or taller or more expensive. Will the market place decide before the creator? If this was in the score for a big band or orchestra what would it rightly be called? What name is on the cover of the book and websites main page, what does the creator want the trombone world call it before “the Db thing” or “Bass Trombone d’Amore” takes hold by composers and all is lost?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-09-11 1:25 p.m.

In the tuba world we have Eb tubas and EEb tubas. They are the same length, but the EEb has a much larger bore. The EEb tuba sounds "bigger" than an Eb tuba.

I would consider a large bore trombone capable of playing all the notes of a bass trombone as a xxx[key] Bass Trombone.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-18 11:38 p.m.

So I came up with something of a brilliant idea. It occured to me the greatest obstacle thus far in several demo sessions is no one knows how to play the horn. For the highly advanced players, it takes about 45 mins to be able to play etudes/excerpts they are familiar with for comparison. Even still, they lack the confidence in playing it, and this is audible, skewing their impression of the horn to a degree. Those that are anything less that advanced never make it there on their first try.

Being that i need to take the single valve horn apart for production purposes anyhow, i think i am going to make it the official demo horn. By keeping it with one valve, and pitching that valve in Bb, literally anyone familiar with a trombone can at least try it out.

Also, to let the cat out of the bag on one front, part of why the horn has to come apart is I plan to improve several off the shelf parts on virtually every horn. The flange connecting the bell to the cross brace for example kinda sucks. They are always the same, flimsy, and boring. Also, other than one or two bespoke brands, ferrules are boring as well. My plan it to have more attractive components manufactured for a whole much of these run of the mill pieces, just to give the horns some class.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-09-18 11:49 p.m.

Make it ascending (Bb/Db) and there'd be no transition! People would also have a little bit of a reference as its only a half step higher than what most players use the F attachment for.. or in other words, T2 is C and T3 is B natural - just one position off.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-19 5:06 a.m.

Matt my issue with that is the same reason i am hesitant to make an independent model. I think its important for people trying it out to be able to play the damn thing, but its important they understand its not some imitation of a Bb bass's sound. This is a unique instrument of its own, and the necessary evil is having to learn something new. I worry if i put Bb anywhere in there, its just a way for someone to cheat doing the work to understand the horn properly. Independent it would be Db/Ab/Bb/Gb. I know thats attractive, but for all the wrong reasons.

I guess this is something someone can't appreciate unless they play one themselves. It's its own animal, and an interesting one at that. It has a better high range than any bass, yet a beautiful vocal like tone, and still has a booming low register. To put it simply, once someone puts in the time to learn the horn it does more than a Bb bass can do. Or any tenor for that matter.

I'm sure thats a bold claim for a lot of people to accept, especially coming from the guy making them. And i know there's plently of people that will think who am i to stumble across this when a major horn manufacturer hasnt? To that i say i am not pretending to be some horn building savant, i just ran across some dumb luck, and took a few guesses that paid off.

So yea, thats the long version if my thoughts. Oh and btw, you bass is looking awesome, ill get you some pics today!

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-09-19 9:42 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]So yea, thats the long version if my thoughts. Oh and btw, you bass is looking awesome, ill get you some pics today![/quote]

:biggrin:

You could transpose some common stuff into Db too. So they wouldn't be reading concert pitch but they'd be using the same nominal slide positions. That would work for some people though peole with perfect pitch might be not used to it if they don't play a transposing instrument at all.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-19 9:58 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="67836" time="1537347978" user_id="3393">
So yea, thats the long version if my thoughts. Oh and btw, you bass is looking awesome, ill get you some pics today![/quote]

:biggrin:

You could transpose some common stuff into Db too. So they wouldn't be reading concert pitch but they'd be using the same nominal slide positions. That would work for some people though peole with perfect pitch might be not used to it if they don't play a transposing instrument at all.
</QUOTE>

The issue happens when they want to go back and forth from a Bb bass to the Db bass. Otherwise yes thatd work

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-09-19 10:19 a.m.

If you want to sell more than a handful of these instruments, you should consider Pete Edwards idea. His ideas were posted in the old TTF, and his horn is practical right out of the gate without relearning anything, or without stretching any instrument classifications.

You're fighting the connection to anything conventional, but your concept and Pete's concept are physically nearly identical. Yours will be hard to learn and his won't. I'd buy one of Pete's if it were offered for sale.

New ideas are cool, but when it comes to putting down money, it needs to also be practical.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-19 11:52 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]If you want to sell more than a handful of these instruments, you should consider Pete Edwards idea. His ideas were posted in the old TTF, and his horn is practical right out of the gate without relearning anything, or without stretching any instrument classifications.

You're fighting the connection to anything conventional, but your concept and Pete's concept are physically nearly identical. Yours will be hard to learn and his won't. I'd buy one of Pete's if it were offered for sale.

New ideas are cool, but when it comes to putting down money, it needs to also be practical.[/quote]

Sorry, but i don't think you know the actual ins and out of this horn. This is a very different beast than what you are referring to. The bell alone fits no conventional dimensions, and the point is this is something new and totally different. Not to poo poo on anyone's work, but Pete's horn just relocates some tubing. Creative, sure. Innovative, no. The math to this horn is totally different than a conventional bass, and it plays superior to that convention.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-09-19 12:23 p.m.

It's gonna have to be REALLY better than a conventional bass to get people to even try it.

Either that or have a couple of nice albums to show it off; preferably by a big name player.

Remember, you have to overcome some serious inertia that says "stay with the status quo".

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-19 12:33 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]It's gonna have to be REALLY better than a conventional bass to get people to even try it.

Either that or have a couple of nice albums to show it off; preferably by a big name player.

Remember, you have to overcome some serious inertia that says "stay with the status quo".[/quote]

Ive found younger players are more interested, where older players tend to shy away. Gives me a good place to start.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2018-09-19 11:54 p.m.

I very much want to try it, regardless of how it relates to a normal bass.

doctortrombone · by **doctortrombone** » 2018-09-20 12:00 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]

Sorry, but i don't think you know the actual ins and out of this horn. This is a very different beast than what you are referring to. The bell alone fits no conventional dimensions, and the point is this is something new and totally different. Not to poo poo on anyone's work, but Pete's horn just relocates some tubing. Creative, sure. Innovative, no.[/quote]

How was it creative or innovative to find an odd bell, and lop off tubing from a standard Bb trombone until you had something that fit it? I've done the same thing with trumpet bells and smallbore slides. I built a slide trombone in some random key--may have even been Db, I don't recall--but I just looked at it as what worked given the point at which the bell tail hit .485 and matched the slide I had, not a paradigm shift. It was fun to make, and I sold it on Ebay for $150.

There's a difference between you "blowing your own horn" like a used car salesman trying to drum up business, and you making snide comments about Pete Edwards. Any statement that starts with "Not to poo poo on anyone's work..." is most likely going to poo poo on someone's work. You're an excellent machinist, but I have yet to see anything in the description of this tromone that's any more innovative than "it's shorter, and it's in a weird key." Basically, this thread reminds me of Nigel Tuffnel, repeatedly explaining that "these go to eleven."

[quote="Jgittleson"]The math to this horn is totally different than a conventional bass, and it plays superior to that convention.[/quote]

Was there math involved? My recollection is that you used trial and error to arrive at something significantly different from what you planned to make, and that the only reason it's in Db is that your "secret sauce" bell happened to have a length and conical profile that matched that key.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-20 2:32 p.m.

[quote="doctortrombone"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="67857" time="1537372335" user_id="3393">

Sorry, but i don't think you know the actual ins and out of this horn. This is a very different beast than what you are referring to. The bell alone fits no conventional dimensions, and the point is this is something new and totally different. Not to poo poo on anyone's work, but Pete's horn just relocates some tubing. Creative, sure. Innovative, no.[/quote]

How was it creative or innovative to find an odd bell, and lop off tubing from a standard Bb trombone until you had something that fit it? I've done the same thing with trumpet bells and smallbore slides. I built a slide trombone in some random key--may have even been Db, I don't recall--but I just looked at it as what worked given the point at which the bell tail hit .485 and matched the slide I had, not a paradigm shift. It was fun to make, and I sold it on Ebay for $150.

There's a difference between you "blowing your own horn" like a used car salesman trying to drum up business, and you making snide comments about Pete Edwards. Any statement that starts with "Not to poo poo on anyone's work..." is most likely going to poo poo on someone's work. You're an excellent machinist, but I have yet to see anything in the description of this tromone that's any more innovative than "it's shorter, and it's in a weird key." Basically, this thread reminds me of Nigel Tuffnel, repeatedly explaining that "these go to eleven."

[quote="Jgittleson"]The math to this horn is totally different than a conventional bass, and it plays superior to that convention.[/quote]

Was there math involved? My recollection is that you used trial and error to arrive at something significantly different from what you planned to make, and that the only reason it's in Db is that your "secret sauce" bell happened to have a length and conical profile that matched that key.
</QUOTE>

Alright sure, why not.

Look, you don't get it. Thats fine. Not everyone is going to be on board. I never pretended to have gotten to the finish line by anything more than dumb luck, but the end result of something that works speaks for itself. Whether i used math or not doesnt matter, theres still math that goes with the end result that allows me to patent all this.

Look forward to your order once they're available :lol: :good:

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-26 2:31 a.m.

Mini update.

Turns out based on a poll i ran, players seem to prefer higher copper content bells almost 2:1. As a result, im very exceited for a few promising red brass bells to be delivered Friday. I already sourced a red brass crook, so if one of these fits the magic combo i need, it should be a pretty neat find to try out. I'm also excited to try out a 9" bell rather than 9.5". This tweaking will hopefully improve the sound of these horns further.

Also, a friend of mine saw a photo of a bulter horn and now wants to make a mold for carbon bells. I was laughing at him at first, but he is a cnc programmer and make some pretty incredible stuff so im eager to see how he makes out. If he nails it, it'd be pretty cook to offer them. He also started working on some of the valves i will be offering, as well as a lot of other components. So much of this stuff hasnt changed in 100 to 200 years, its really not hard to improve it. We actually had a major revelation as how to assemble horns, which led to some products we are prototyping. If it works out, itll make my life more complicated with more patents to file haha.

It's kinda fun to take the traditional rules around something, throw them away, and make all new ones. From an engineers perspective so much of a horn is designed horribly, with plenty of room for improvement. Sure, this makes parts cost a little more, but for the price of a custom horn today, I for one would expect things like the improvements we are working on. Two valves cnc'd into a single housing, that can be screwed into place rather than soldered, more integrated components, cutting the amount of solder joints in half, more elegrant construction, no more plain bell braces or cheap ferrules.

So, theres a little insight into whats going on at the moment. We may also be taking a look into some alternative materials i havent seen used on a horn. For example, if we do integrate some carbon fiber, it'd be nice to try and pair up titanium with it, assuming it still sounds good. Then we could make a truly indestructible horn! Hahaha.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-09-29 3:40 a.m.

Great news! I have been successful in sourcing bells that will work in alternate sizes/materials. I will be mounting up a 9" red brass one next. Oh, AND i can match the tuning slide in red brass as well! To say I am excited is an understatement. I am hoping the smallest size bell that qualifies as a bass bone gives me a more centered sound, and apparently im not the only one who prefers the tonal qualities produced by a bell of higher copper content.

I should have this playing late Sunday night, with video to follow. As much as id like to just jump right on this, a sick 2 year old, about 5 customer projects (three on them for one person!), and a smattering of other priorities have me stretched in 50 directions. I also have a few prototype parts to test out, including a new ferrule design i am beyond eager to try. Ignore the simple outside shape, its strictly for testing purposes.

Prototype 1.0 for my own valve is also ready to be mounted and trialed. A good friend of mine has jumped on board on my crazy adventure, and together we came up with a plethora of advancements to improve the current rotor valves on the market. By changing the way the valve is made, we can incorporate some remarkable innovations no manufacturer has released. This also dramatically raises the cost of production, but one step at a time!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-01 11:28 a.m.

Plays fantastic! I much prefer this to the other bells. All the characteristics you'd expect from a red brass bell, and nice focused projection from the 9" size.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-02 11:45 a.m.

I know its missing a few notes with only the Bb valve, but man this is fun to play!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-03 10:24 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="p6YbharHgY4">https://youtu.be/p6YbharHgY4</YOUTUBE>

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-04 3:49 p.m.

Well i dove into the independent horn today. It took a while to jump in, since i had to decide what i wanted to make in tune. After playing the Bb valve horn, which i love, i knew the path to take. It will be Db/Ab/Bb/Gb, and Gb in first with both valves will be flat.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-05 9:56 p.m.

Well i thimk i lost everyone but the independent model is looking pretty awesome

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-10-05 10:12 p.m.

Is this thing supposed to be TIS or no tuning whatsoever?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-05 11:27 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Is this thing supposed to be TIS or no tuning whatsoever?[/quote]

TIS. Making slide now too, but there's nothing interesting about it so I haven't shown much.

Specialk3700 · by **Specialk3700** » 2018-10-06 8:49 a.m.

What size mouthpiece where you using in the video? To me it sounds too much like a tenor for my likings but hey I also play a big old 10 inch bell Holton.

Jgittleson · 2018-10-06 9:26 a.m.

[quote="Specialk3700"]What size mouthpiece where you using in the video? To me it sounds too much like a tenor for my likings but hey I also play a big old 10 inch bell Holton.[/quote]

The second horn is a 10 inch holton. I should borrow a Bb bass from my friend that has a 9" bell and single bore slide to show how much closer it is. Its really, really, close.

Mouthpiece is a greg black 1g medium.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-06 9:27 a.m.

The elves were busy last night.... pretty happy with the wrap design.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-07 2:20 p.m.

Had a couple more people try the horn, with very positive reviews. The main obersvations seemed to be consistent with the rest, with the best response being it should be called the lyrical bass trombone. Im waiting for parts to finish the independent one, then ill be getting it out and about with that as well.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-09 7:04 a.m.

Here is one persons review

I spent some time with the horn. It's really an interesting design. My first description of it was that it's a "lyrical bass trombone" You have a sound and response that's much more in line with a bass. It's really resonant in the range from about about Db below the staff and up as high as you can (it extended my range on my usual mouthpiece).

My first idea was that it's perfect for Rochut etudes in tenor clef 8vb. Not super low, but nice and rich solo playing. It would be cool for perhaps the 3rd part in Mahler 2 (or other 3rd parts in a 4 part section), maybe even in a jazz ens where the 4th part is playing mostly below the staff as a bridge to the smaller horns.

It definitely has a place in the trombone family.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-10 8:31 a.m.

Waiting on one or two components to finish the independent bell section, which I am really excited for. I've been using the Db/Bb one in group now, and it does the job quite well. The only thing I haven't played in with it is a big band, but once the independent one is finished I'll arrange for that as well. I'm currently looking to have these for trial and purchase at next years sts and itf, if not sooner. Not sure how many orders I will get , but I am sure everyone's going to want to try it!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-11 2:19 p.m.

I'll just leave this here

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-12 3:14 p.m.

So most of the finish is done, just the fine details to comb through. I threw the valves and hardware on, needed to solder the finger valve perch. While i had it together i blew a few notes, and its so sweet. I have to spend some time with it, but first back apart to get everything perfect tonight. I know what ill be practicing on this weekend <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2018-10-12 7:25 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]I'll just leave this here[/quote]

Beautiful!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-12 7:31 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="69188" time="1539281987" user_id="3393">
I'll just leave this here[/quote]

Beautiful!
</QUOTE>

Thanks! And she's done!

Crazytrombonist505 · by **Crazytrombonist505** » 2018-10-12 8:55 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="69271" time="1539386719" user_id="136">

Beautiful![/quote]

Thanks! And she's done!
</QUOTE>

That looks awesome!! Great job!!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-13 9:52 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="m_gFu0IwR4I">https://youtu.be/m_gFu0IwR4I</YOUTUBE>

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-17 8:15 a.m.

Been a productive couple of days. Still getting used to the independent setup, as I'm still getting familiar with all the alternate positions. Took my half a rehearsal to realize i can play Eb in the staff in first with my thumb valve <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>. Perhaps the most interesting thing Ive observed while playing is this horns ability to "punch through" in an ensemble. With my Bb bass, this task felt like trying to pish a wave from the back of the room through to the audience, where with the Db horn it just cuts through so cleanly, having its voice heard is really quite easy. This makes me very eager to try it out in a big band setting, especially on the right charts that are bass bone heavy.

The bigger news is some commercial players will be trying the horn soon, as part of a new relationship with a company interested in manufacturing some of these. Im very interested to get their feedback.

BrassedOn · by **BrassedOn** » 2018-10-18 10:03 a.m.

Great to see the horn in action. I'm sure a lot of us are eager to hear it in a section.

Pretty wrap with the dog legs. Does it still fulfill your portability size needs?

How's the TIS coming along?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-18 10:22 a.m.

[quote="BrassedOn"]Great to see the horn in action. I'm sure a lot of us are eager to hear it in a section.

Pretty wrap with the dog legs. Does it still fulfill your portability size needs?

How's the TIS coming along?[/quote]

Thanks! I'll see what i can do for that, should be possible.

As far as size, yes, even with the wrap straight back like that, the bell is still just short of 24". It looks longer i know, but thats just due to the main crook being so short.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-18 10:50 p.m.

Good progress today. Had a good friend thats an extremely competent player work out on it, he's played every model I've made thus far. After a whole bunch of playing, he's in agreement this is the best ive done on these horns. Out of curiousity, he threw a different mouthpiece in it and gave it a go (he has been using the same mp as me thus far, grag black 1gm). The change instantly brought the low stuff into the spotlight, much stronger and slotted real well. I tried it myself and got the same result. After playing with it for a bit, it became apparent it shifted the range down by about a fifth, and if you are looking to vlow doors off down low, this is a good thing. The lucky winner was a Marcinkiewicz 107 contra MP. Shocked? I was!

Ill post some video to show it off, but i was really diggin it.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-10-19 1:47 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]The lucky winner was a Marcinkiewicz 107 contra MP. Shocked? I was![/quote]
You shouldn't be. The idea of plugging in what amounts to a small tuba mouthpiece to get Richter-scale pedal notes isn't a new thing. The original Schilke 60 was supposedly based on an Eb tuba mouthpiece that Edward Kleinhammer used for just such a purpose. The question with such mouthpieces is always: "What happens to the middle and upper register?"

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-19 1:50 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="69648" time="1539917458" user_id="3393">The lucky winner was a Marcinkiewicz 107 contra MP. Shocked? I was![/quote]
You shouldn't be. The idea of plugging in what amounts to a small tuba mouthpiece to get Richter-scale pedal notes isn't a new thing. The original Schilke 60 was supposedly based on an Eb tuba mouthpiece that Edward Kleinhammer used for just such a purpose. The question with such mouthpieces is always: "What happens to the middle and upper register?"
</QUOTE>

2 things. First, I'm still getting the high stuff, but id say the 2nd Ab above the staff is the highest comfortable note, vs the Db above that with a greg black 1g.

Second, after some practicing with the 107 and going back to the greg black, i found my lower register is improved, and the 107 acted as a good training tool.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-26 3:08 a.m.

Refining the single valve horn, slightly tweaked design. I'm also making multiple tuning slides, so it can be used in Bb, Ab, or Gb. I really like the double valve model, but this single valve is such a good design, and plays so well, that i think its worth while to produce it as well. Since these horns have such a robust range, its conceivable it could be used in situations where Db/Bb will work just fine.

I'm scheduled for a trial session on Nov 4th, so ill plan to have this one, and the TIS, done by then. Had some midnight inspiration for how i want to do the thumb rest, and i sourced some nice nickel silver billet, so I'm going to machine the bell ferrule myself and try to make it match nicer than the previous models.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-27 5:29 a.m.

I am really getting tired of using other people parts, so when i stumbled upon a nice billet of nickel silver, i immediately picked it up to nake my own bell ferrule. Imho it is a vast improvement, makes me want to make all the ferrules myself. Im still amazed at how with the exorbitant prices for these horns, how many of the parts are real crap. Sloppy clearances, flimsy by design, and not only does it make it harder to build a horn, you can tell they are junk as soon as you hold them up to the same part of a higher grade.

Anyhow, moving in the right direction. Mights to somthing special for the bell brace rod, thinking it through now.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2018-10-29 9:46 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="doctortrombone" post_id="70229" time="1540772056" user_id="3108">

No, it isn't. I've cut down more than 20 horns. If I can't avoid a major step in bore, I won't build it. Its shoddy workmanship.

But hey---I apologize for getting you all riled up again. Advertise away. I'll let you be.[/quote]

So tell ya what- you go ahead and make me the custom crook or valve needed for the horn that oh yea, I INVENTED, and ill use you are my supplier. And again, I'm so glad you know so much about my design, apparently you've made 20 of them to my specs! What flattery!
</QUOTE>

Just playing devil's advocate here, but why don't you make your own bow if the stock one you have doesn't fit the bore of the valve port and/or the beginning of the bell flare?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-29 9:55 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="70230">

So tell ya what- you go ahead and make me the custom crook or valve needed for the horn that oh yea, I INVENTED, and ill use you are my supplier. And again, I'm so glad you know so much about my design, apparently you've made 20 of them to my specs! What flattery![/quote]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but why don't you make your own bow if the stock one you have doesn't fit the bore of the valve port and/or the beginning of the bell flare?
</QUOTE>

Ultimately that is an option, yes, although the easier solution will be in the valveset. Im cncing custom valves, so its much simpler to just adjust the design to work with a given crook. For the prototype that was the best solution, and to be honest a .040 step is of no consequence. Even shires has this inside their tuning slide (just rebuilt one thats how I know)

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-31 5:59 a.m.

Finished up the reciever and bell brace. Man what I'd give to actually get braces that fit. Nothing is more annoying that having to cut shims to get a tight fit (for brand new name brand parts they are allegedly made to fit togrther from the manufacturer), then sit there with a rawhide mallet peening the brace flanges til they fit right, or at least as tight as possible. It makes a job that should take 20-30 mins with solder clean up take 2-3 hours. And in the end the flanges still don't fit as tight as i would like. To make it even more frustrating, the T coming off the bell side brace is off by almost exactly 1° which there is no way to correct. For the record, 1° is extremely visible to the naked eye. It ends up looking like i did a mediocre job, when it reality you can only get it as perfect as the parts allow. Things like this are why I am intent on making my own parts line. Rant over. Lol.

Im hoping to have at least one of the alternate tuning slides done for the weekend, probably need about an hour in fitment work, then 2 hours to solder and finish it all pretty.

BrassedOn · by **BrassedOn** » 2018-10-31 9:00 a.m.

Sorry if I missed a post...

Is the current single valve horn like a step and a half or otherwise short not Ab? What’s T position for low D and gap range D? looks lean in a good way.

Looking forward to next video.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-31 9:35 a.m.

[quote="BrassedOn"]Sorry if I missed a post...

Is the current single valve horn like a step and a half or otherwise short not Ab? What’s T position for low D and gap range D? looks lean in a good way.

Looking forward to next video.[/quote]

Great question. So i did something a little different with the horn. Typically it would be Db/Ab (same as Bb/F relationship), but being the Bb/G translates to Db/Bb, I decided to set it up with a multi tuning slide arrangement. With the smallest slide its Db/Bb (pictured), then Db/Ab, and if you want it to be fully chromatic, there is alto Db/Gb. I will also offer a valve in tuning slide option, and various tuning options with that as well.

To give you an example in real world application, i have 2 holiday gigs in December i just got the music for, and in the 10 pieces, i can play the bass bone parts with the Db/Bb configuration and no notes fall in the gap in range. So the goal with the single valve model is really maximum versatility when needed.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2018-10-31 10:01 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Finished up the reciever and bell brace. Man what I'd give to actually get braces that fit. Nothing is more annoying that having to cut shims to get a tight fit (for brand new name brand parts they are allegedly made to fit togrther from the manufacturer), then sit there with a rawhide mallet peening the brace flanges til they fit right, or at least as tight as possible. It makes a job that should take 20-30 mins with solder clean up take 2-3 hours. And in the end the flanges still don't fit as tight as i would like. To make it even more frustrating, the T coming off the bell side brace is off by almost exactly 1° which there is no way to correct. For the record, 1° is extremely visible to the naked eye. It ends up looking like i did a mediocre job, when it reality you can only get it as perfect as the parts allow. Things like this are why I am intent on making my own parts line. Rant over. Lol.

Im hoping to have at least one of the alternate tuning slides done for the weekend, probably need about an hour in fitment work, then 2 hours to solder and finish it all pretty.[/quote]

I still don't understand why it's the manufacturer's fault that their stock parts made for their horn doesn't fit your custom assembly of a custom bell. Again, if you can't find parts that fit your horn to your satisfaction, why do you not make your own from scratch?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-31 10:03 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="70399" time="1540979956" user_id="3393">
Finished up the reciever and bell brace. Man what I'd give to actually get braces that fit. Nothing is more annoying that having to cut shims to get a tight fit (for brand new name brand parts they are allegedly made to fit togrther from the manufacturer), then sit there with a rawhide mallet peening the brace flanges til they fit right, or at least as tight as possible. It makes a job that should take 20-30 mins with solder clean up take 2-3 hours. And in the end the flanges still don't fit as tight as i would like. To make it even more frustrating, the T coming off the bell side brace is off by almost exactly 1° which there is no way to correct. For the record, 1° is extremely visible to the naked eye. It ends up looking like i did a mediocre job, when it reality you can only get it as perfect as the parts allow. Things like this are why I am intent on making my own parts line. Rant over. Lol.

Im hoping to have at least one of the alternate tuning slides done for the weekend, probably need about an hour in fitment work, then 2 hours to solder and finish it all pretty.[/quote]

I still don't understand why it's the manufacturer's fault that their stock parts made for their horn doesn't fit your custom assembly of a custom bell. Again, if you can't find parts that fit your horn to your satisfaction, why do you not make your own from scratch?
</QUOTE>

I thought i was pretty specific but i will reiterate. I am referring to 3 parts direct from a manufacturer that they design to go together. Has nothing to do with my horns.

doctortrombone · by **doctortrombone** » 2018-10-31 10:12 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="70413" time="1540994470" user_id="3038">

I still don't understand why it's the manufacturer's fault that their stock parts made for their horn doesn't fit your custom assembly of a custom bell. Again, if you can't find parts that fit your horn to your satisfaction, why do you not make your own from scratch?[/quote]

I thought i was pretty specific but i will reiterate. I am referring to 3 parts direct from a manufacturer that they design to go together. Has nothing to do with my horns.
</QUOTE>

You're discussing the bell-side brace and its flange. right? Not all bells have the same taper, so of course there will be variations in the socket angle. Add to that the fact that you're using a shorter neckpipe with no curvature (Getzen curves their single-valve neckpipes), and it's a wonder it's not 10 degrees off. And for all your complaining about the sloppiness of fit at sockets, if you can't get 1 degree of play out of the slop at that particular junction, doesn't that tell us that the fit of these Getzen parts is VERY precise?

I've pointed this out before, and I hope you take it to heart. You're a talented machinist, with good ideas and a strong set of skills. However, instead of referencing your own skills in your sales pitch, you tend to denigrate the work of others. I think it works against you.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-10-31 10:29 a.m.

[quote="doctortrombone"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="70415" time="1540994626" user_id="3393">

I thought i was pretty specific but i will reiterate. I am referring to 3 parts direct from a manufacturer that they design to go together. Has nothing to do with my horns.[/quote]

You're discussing the bell-side brace and its flange. right? Not all bells have the same taper, so of course there will be variations in the socket angle. Add to that the fact that you're using a shorter neckpipe with no curvature (Getzen curves their single-valve neckpipes), and it's a wonder it's not 10 degrees off. And for all your complaining about the sloppiness of fit at sockets, if you can't get 1 degree of play out of the slop at that particular junction, doesn't that tell us that the fit of these Getzen parts is VERY precise?

I've pointed this out before, and I hope you take it to heart. You're a talented machinist, with good ideas and a strong set of skills. However, instead of referencing your own skills in your sales pitch, you tend to denigrate the work of others. I think it works against you.
</QUOTE>

Hey my buddy's back! The bell side brace, bar, and socket on the reciever. And no they aren't Getzen, and yes they are all made to match, even with that bell. The brace is placed at the exact same spot on the bell as when used in Bb. Im going to say this again. You know nothing of the intricacies of this horn, please stop pretending you know better. Every time you make an assumption its so far off frankly it's insulting. I'm am used to designing far more complicated things than trombones, and anything you can try to rebut as my ignorance or error, has already been thought of and worked around. If I give a part a big thumbs down, its because it is not even made to work propertly in its native application. If you have a question of how I arrived at a particular conclusion, or how i solved a specific problem, great. That being said, the kid in the classroom trying to tell the teacher they made a mistake on the board act is getting real old.

Aren't you a professor or something? If thats the case it should be beneath you as well.

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2018-10-31 10:50 a.m.

Are your bell and neckpipe from the same manufacturer of the brace parts? If they are not, why would the parts fit? I don’t understand why they are supposed to “made to match” if they are not even from the same manufacturer. Even parts from the same source but different model would not fit together.

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