What are some horns you will NEVER buy?

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-02-14 8:46 p.m.

Title sez it all.

What horns won't yo be caught dead with!

For me, anything Jupiter. I'd play a Bundy before a Jupiter.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-02-14 9:38 p.m.

Never say never.

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-02-14 10:26 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Never say never.[/quote]

:twisted:

What he said. But I can say with most certainty I’d never buy some opulently expensive horns like a Thein contrabass or something funky like a Schagerl Ganschhorn. Mainly because I don’t need them.

But would I buy any variation of a horn I’d use that’s different than what I’m playing right now? Maybe. Probably.

There are some I’m definitely not interested in because of their fame for being bad. Like The Dude Getzen made in the 60’s or something. And others because, while I like them, I can’t make them work. Like a Conn 44H. I played a really perfect example a few years ago that was the silkiest, richest, darkest sounding small bore I’ve ever played. But it got buried by strong trumpets and saxes and didn’t blend with brassy trombones at all. Maybe in an intimate combo setting, but I don’t do that much.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2020-02-14 10:31 p.m.

Anything by Sierman.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2020-02-14 11:25 p.m.

I said I would never buy a cheap Chinese student horn, but ended up buying one. However, I paid only $20 for a horn that needed $150 in repairs and would be worth less then that when done. For my $20 I now have a usable soft case, another unbranded mouthpiece, a new supply of Superslick, and a floor lamp. :good:

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2020-02-14 11:49 p.m.

Cleveland, Bundy, Olds Ambassador, Pan American, any Czech trombone, any trombone made in India.

jtbandmusic · by **jtbandmusic** » 2020-02-15 12:13 a.m.

Any Olds. I've had a P24G and a trigger Recording. Both were in great condition; both were beautiful horns. Great slides. Both were unplayably flat, Flat, FLAT. Tuning slide all the way in. Still flat.

I tried different mouthpieces including Olds. Real Olds pieces were tiny compared others, and still flat. Tried shaving down shanks. Flat. Could never play anything with any ensemble. Splatty tone, bass and Recording.

Flimsy bendable levers on the bass, with painful cramp-inducing ergonomics. Thumb trigger was like pressing a spoon. The Recording had that slow, reach-around-the-brace trigger.

Case on both horns were sturdy wood steamer trunks that weighed about 3000 lbs each.

I like the horns I have now.

Hey, you asked.

John Thompson

YSL 646

Conn 60H

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-02-15 1:40 a.m.

Having found equipment that works really well for me, I don't I'll be buying anything that isn't a 1for1 replacement or slide replacement in the future (except for the Shires alto...). But... What will I never buy... Let's say if nothing changes from the current state of affairs:

First and foremost, anything from BAC. Nope! Their newest "artist" model horn that they are working on? Whaa?? Will it make me sound like an autotuned can of tuna? Multitracked? No thanks...

Any of the square bow, crazy narrow Bach small bores. Good lord, how do people play those things?

A Bach alto.

I'll never pony up for a Thein. Good or not

Probably never buy a Shires tenor. I've played lots of them. Haven't found one that spoke to me. Sad, because the slides are so good. Their altos are a different story. Definitely will buy one some day. I'm holding out for them to release the bell tuning version that they just prototyped, so I can do a shootout and walk away with the best one.

Any soprano or piccolo or contrabass trombone.

A valve trombone or superbone.

Now, I did say if nothing changes. There may be some real breakthrough tech that is developed in the future that we all might be basically forced into getting. Like the F attachment was. Except lots of people still are holding out even on that one. So probably not. It's just a trombone, and they don't really change all that much...

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-02-15 1:51 p.m.

The ones I can't afford.

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2020-02-15 8:19 p.m.

Other than cheap horns already mentioned that goes without saying, mine would be the standard BO series of Bach.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like them not because of their sound nor playability, the ones I have test-played sound great in their own ways. The thing that I don’t like is the “far open” wrap of these horns. Harder to pull (I got used to using the main tuning slide as the anchor point for my hand to push out the F slide), and also easier to get dents because the F branch sticks too far back.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-02-16 2:03 a.m.

Nothing specific. BUT:

The whole category of horns that can be characterized as: Undesirable, Overpriced, and Probably-Stolen Horns for Sale on Craigslist.

You all know what I'm talking about... Abilene student horns, Mendinis bought by people undergoing a quarter-life crisis, Bundys that have led a long and unhappy life, ect. There's always that joker who wants 2K for their "vintage" Bach 36B that looks like it went through the spin cycle.

JUNK.

FeelMyRath · by **FeelMyRath** » 2020-02-16 3:30 a.m.

Easy. Bach 42. Tried a few, they just don't do it for me - I think it's that bass crook and wide slide.

Also, anything with a Thayer valve.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2020-02-16 4:03 a.m.

Ha ha! I play a Bach 42 with a Thayer valve, and I have never played a Rath that I liked.

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-02-16 7:38 a.m.

Blessing, Lawler and BAC.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-02-16 12:13 p.m.

[quote="Andre1966tr"]Blessing, Lawler and BAC.[/quote]
Ok I have to respond to this one.

What's up with Lawler? Do you just not like the horns or do you have beef with the company?

I understand BAC but I've never heard anything but praise about Lawler.

Trevorspaulding376 · by **Trevorspaulding376** » 2020-02-16 1:20 p.m.

Sad to hear that , Mike makes some terrific instruments I have a custom 6 that is phenomenal

Also have a lawler 3 that’s incredible , those are 2 great craftsmen to be firmly against one of their horns ..

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-02-16 1:50 p.m.

- any Bb bass with a main slide bore greater than 565

- any tenor with a main slide bore less than 485

- any Thein (just due to price and pretentiousness)

- any Monette

- any modular (the temptation to meddle would just be too great for me to bear)

- anything very rare or strictly collectible (the likelihood of being disappointed is way too high)

- anything too beautiful to play (what's the point)

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-02-16 2:09 p.m.

I don’t know if I would buy a fully BAC trombone. My experience with them has been either side work ( which was very good ), restoration ( again very good ), and modification ( which was a long process talking about how to achieve what I wanted and updates along the way that ended up being exactly what I wanted ). I haven’t had that eye opening moment with a full BAC horn like I have with one of mine they modified or restored. I won’t deny that people have butted heads with them, but I only speak for myself.

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2020-02-16 3:41 p.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]Title sez it all.

What horns won't yo be caught dead with!

For me, anything Jupiter. I'd play a Bundy before a Jupiter.[/quote]

Have you ever played either of the Jupiter XO horns, their professional line of instruments? They're pretty darn good.

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2020-02-16 3:47 p.m.

I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.

Fruitysloth · by **Fruitysloth** » 2020-02-16 4:22 p.m.

Taking a bit from hyperbolica:

- any Bb bass with a main slide bore greater than 565

- any tenor with a main slide bore less than 485

- any Thein/Latsch (just due to price)

- anything from Sierman, I'm disappointed in a company that steals from hard working individuals

- any instrument with a set back bell, throws me off too much

- TIS small bore tenors

- Any Eb 3 valve instruments, unless it's to add a 4th valve or do some sort of frankentuba thing

- most, if not all valve trombones, I might get ONE for the brookmeyer/tizol feel

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-02-17 5:04 a.m.

My first trombone was a Blessing Scholastic, worst horn I can imagine...

BAC: I don´t like the design, especially the Mason horn

Lawler? I don´t like screw bells

Not a dispassionate evaluation.... I know :-)

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-02-17 7:17 a.m.

As a collector I have made a choice not to buy horns marketed as student horns unless they for some reason are well regarded buy enough professionals and therefore could be considered to be as good as horns marketed as professional horns 😉 On my student trombone exception list are Kanstul 760, Yamaha YSL-321, YSL-322, YSL-354, YSL-356G and YSL-356R. All other student horns by Conn, Bach and others are out of interest, but never say never :good: From the exception list I own four out of six.

/Tom

Vegastokc · by **Vegastokc** » 2020-02-18 12:53 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]...All other student horns by Conn, Bach and others are out of interest, but never say never :good: ....

/Tom[/quote]

I love all those Yamahas but I wouldn't overlook the venerable King 606. :D

Sure its a little heavy and maybe not as refined as a 354 , but compared to a Director or Bach 301, its at least a step or two above. I played one all through college in all settings and it never let me down (so yes, I am biased. ;))

I would not really consider it a collectable type horn though if that's your thing.

But not bad to mess around on for a while and then flip to a student for a reasonable price. :)

Also, don't forget about the Tempo 1305. Basically an "intermediate" 2B. It might be a keeper.

(Kinda like a Mustang 5.0 LX vs GT in the late 80's :lol: )

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2020-02-19 9:43 a.m.

Late Boosey and Hawkes.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2020-02-19 9:51 a.m.

Either a Bach 42B or a Bach 36B.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-02-19 10:24 a.m.

[quote="johnjenkins"]I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.[/quote] Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".

LongNeckedAnimal · by **LongNeckedAnimal** » 2020-02-19 12:37 p.m.

[quote="FeelMyRath"]Easy. Bach 42. Tried a few, they just don't do it for me - I think it's that bass crook and wide slide.

Also, anything with a Thayer valve.[/quote]

I feel like Bach is one of those manufactures that either works brilliantly for the player or not at all, everyone I've personally talked to has been so divisive on them.

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2020-02-19 12:41 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="johnjenkins" post_id="104814" time="1581886039" user_id="3111">
I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.[/quote] Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".
</QUOTE>

I understand that isn't anything new, but not many are doing it now. As to your stated preference/opinions, "different strokes for different folks."

Aesthetics matter, for certain, but I'd argue that function matters more.

JBone · by **JBone** » 2020-02-19 9:14 p.m.

[quote="LongNeckedAnimal"]<QUOTE author="FeelMyRath" post_id="104775" time="1581841846" user_id="3055">
Easy. Bach 42. Tried a few, they just don't do it for me - I think it's that bass crook and wide slide.

Also, anything with a Thayer valve.[/quote]

I feel like Bach is one of those manufactures that either works brilliantly for the player or not at all, everyone I've personally talked to has been so divisive on them.
</QUOTE>

See, that's odd to me, because Conn has so many more features that make them more of a challenge for a lot of players.

First and foremost, the narrow slide. Affects a number of things ergonomically, especially for larger players, reduces the choice in valves, etc. Then there's the unsoldered bead wire, which requires the player to be more consistent in how he attacks notes (I'm unclear as to whether or not recent Conns maintain this build choice), and of course the use of red brass which many people feel changes more than yellow or gold brass as the dynamic at which they're playing changes.

And, if you're discussing vintage instruments, there's always the question of the Remington-taper mouthpiece receiver.

All in all, I would have expected Bach to be the less divisive choice.

That said, I'm not likely to ever own one. I'm happy with my current large tenor, I went through all of high school and college on an 88H, and my trombone instructor (with whom I started studying AFTER having bought the 88H) spent several minutes griping each lesson about how he wished I had bought a 42B instead.

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-02-19 9:34 p.m.

Intermediate horns.

There’s no point to the marketing, but if it’s JUST marketing and not the build quality also then id be happy to try it out. If it fits it ships... I’ve played a King Tempo that was really great and it seemed built just as nicely as my 2B. I have a bashed Cleveland Superior that seems the same, but I can’t tell because if its condition. Newer intermediate horns are just student horns that cost more. My Yamaha AD200 or whatever is pretty much a 354 labeled differently, but that’s a good thing. Those horns rip

Vegastokc · by **Vegastokc** » 2020-02-20 10:23 a.m.

[quote="FullPedalTrombonist"]My Yamaha AD200 or whatever is pretty much a 354 labeled differently, but that’s a good thing. Those horns rip[/quote]

A 200 is just a 354 that's made in China, right? Otherwise size specs are the same?

I've been trying to pickup a really cheap 354 just for the inner slide. I have one of those 80's era 354's with the slide plating chipped off. Unfortunately for me, 354's still go for way to much money used and 200's are not far behind. :shuffle:

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-02-20 10:27 a.m.

[quote="Vegastokc"]<QUOTE author="FullPedalTrombonist" post_id="105120" time="1582166051" user_id="145">
My Yamaha AD200 or whatever is pretty much a 354 labeled differently, but that’s a good thing. Those horns rip[/quote]

A 200 is just a 354 that's made in China, right? Otherwise size specs are the same?

I've been trying to pickup a really cheap 354 just for the inner slide. I have one of those 80's era 354's with the slide plating chipped off. Unfortunately for me, 354's still go for way to much money used and 200's are not far behind. :shuffle:
</QUOTE>

I think so. I’ll have to look at what it says on the slide. The lacquer colour is different; more gold than yellow. But it plays exactly like the newer 354’s I know. I think they hold value because they’re like a Toyota or Honda daily driver. Exciting enough, too reliable, tons of them out there, though.

Vegastokc · by **Vegastokc** » 2020-02-20 10:35 a.m.

Yep, Hondas are always just out of my price range too. :lol:

Although I am perfectly satisfied with more affordable Mazda I bought instead. :good:

So that begs the question - what is the Mazda of the trombone brands? :???:

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-02-20 11:52 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="johnjenkins" post_id="104814" time="1581886039" user_id="3111">
I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.[/quote] Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".
</QUOTE>

I take it back. I'd play a Yamaha before I'd play a BAC (Big and Crappy) chopshop horn. Nothing they do is innovative or original. Their designs seem to cater to young hipster players with no taste or sense.

JBone · by **JBone** » 2020-02-21 1:27 a.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]I take it back. I'd play a Yamaha before I'd play a BAC (Big and Crappy) chopshop horn. Nothing they do is innovative or original. Their designs seem to cater to young hipster players with no taste or sense.[/quote]

I played a BAC Custom smallbore probably 15 years ago at Dillon Music that was on sale, used, for the then-ridiculous price of about $3000.

Even at that price point, I could have been tempted to pull the trigger if I had the disposable income at that point. Open blowing, extremely ergonomically comfortable, even across the range, good sound (as far as I could tell in a room with a bunch of brass instruments hanging on hooks on the wall), fantastic slide.

Mike Corrigan knows how to make great trombones, and is about the nicest guy you could ever hope to meet.

As to the aesthetic elements of a lot of his current lineup? They're not to my taste, to put it mildly. But I wouldn't write off the whole range based on (admittedly, the majority of the things that bear his brand) a couple of instruments designed for pros who are looking for a trademark look to a new horn and some samey Chinese copies of other trombones. I would be very tempted to try out any subdued-aesthetic horn I came across with his name on the bell.

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-02-21 11:49 a.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]<QUOTE author="tbonesullivan" post_id="105075" time="1582125888" user_id="7063">
Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".[/quote]

I take it back. I'd play a Yamaha before I'd play a BAC (Big and Crappy) chopshop horn. Nothing they do is innovative or original. Their designs seem to cater to young hipster players with no taste or sense.
</QUOTE>

If you take the approach I did with having BAC modify a horn it’s a much more pleasurable item to look at IMHO. Their outlandish designs are about as polarizing as trombone design gets and not exactly my taste either.

I play in big bands a lot. I’m in a section behind a row of saxes on a dark stage behind dancers or a beautiful vocalist. No one is looking at my horn anyway. I play it because it plays well for me and with a band. Admittedly what was done to my horn was all my design and only carried out by people who could do the work, but would probably blend into a line up at NAMM or a FB gallery.

Their normal looking horns play well enough to put them in the running with Lawler, Shires, Rath, and any other well regarded makers if I were to be in the market again.

Arrowhead · by **Arrowhead** » 2020-03-06 4:42 p.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]Title sez it all.

What horns won't yo be caught dead with!

For me, anything Jupiter. I'd play a Bundy before a Jupiter.[/quote]

You may consider trying them again. They've grown leaps and bounds in the last decade. I tried an F att. Jupiter that was retailing for $1600. it was BETTER than the Bach 42, which retailed for a $1000 more (I tried them both in the store). This was back in 2015.

brasslizard · by **brasslizard** » 2020-03-11 2:20 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]As a collector I have made a choice not to buy horns marketed as student horns unless they for some reason are well regarded buy enough professionals and therefore could be considered to be as good as horns marketed as professional horns 😉 On my student trombone exception list are Kanstul 760, Yamaha YSL-321, YSL-322, YSL-354, YSL-356G and YSL-356R. All other student horns by Conn, Bach and others are out of interest, but never say never :good: From the exception list I own four out of six.

/Tom[/quote]

I just passed on a YSL-321 because it needed more work than I could do myself (slide end smooshed, cracked, leaking) and they still wanted $99 despite that unplayable flaw.

Also passed on the vintage Besson and the Cleveland 605. Both were not worth the effort even if they'd been free.

I bought two Olds Ambassadors they had, the 1962 in near-perfect condition, just needs a good cleaning and the water key fixed. Came with the original Olds 3 mouthpiece. I took the 1948 Olds as a project horn - needs new waterkey, and the counterweight is missing, with a nasty JB weld-style patch job where it used to be attached. Included the original case and Olds 3 mouthpiece as well. The lacquer is rough as well. Again, I think I'll use it to test my abilities to make something usable. These two horns will provide plenty of entertainment for me for the $90 I paid for the pair. I may have overpaid, but time will tell. I usually have people who need to borrow a horn and aren't too picky.

JBone · by **JBone** » 2020-03-11 10:21 p.m.

[quote="brasslizard"]Also passed on the vintage Besson and the Cleveland 605. Both were not worth the effort even if they'd been free.[/quote]

I don't know what vintage Besson student horns might be good for, but I'm sure that they could be good for something. Heavy gauge metal and a tighter than average slide bore (Somewhere around .480 straight bore) are specs that you don't run across terribly frequently these days. Perhaps good for accompanying heavily amplified music in a place where they don't want to run a PA?

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-03-11 10:47 p.m.

[quote="JBone"]<QUOTE author="brasslizard" post_id="106902" time="1583950802" user_id="8755">
Also passed on the vintage Besson and the Cleveland 605. Both were not worth the effort even if they'd been free.[/quote]

I don't know what vintage Besson student horns might be good for, but I'm sure that they could be good for something. Heavy gauge metal and a tighter than average slide bore (Somewhere around .480 straight bore) are specs that you don't run across terribly frequently these days. Perhaps good for accompanying heavily amplified music in a place where they don't want to run a PA?
</QUOTE>

One of the reasons I love the Olds Super I landed on after trying many. Not only can I slice through a band without a mic I can keep the same clarity at mp. If a Besson came up for free and it worked in the same fashion I’d clean it and stash it as a backup backup backup :pant:

brasslizard · by **brasslizard** » 2020-03-12 5:49 p.m.

[quote="FullPedalTrombonist"]<QUOTE author="JBone" post_id="106944" time="1583979665" user_id="8448">

I don't know what vintage Besson student horns might be good for, but I'm sure that they could be good for something. Heavy gauge metal and a tighter than average slide bore (Somewhere around .480 straight bore) are specs that you don't run across terribly frequently these days. Perhaps good for accompanying heavily amplified music in a place where they don't want to run a PA?[/quote]

One of the reasons I love the Olds Super I landed on after trying many. Not only can I slice through a band without a mic I can keep the same clarity at mp. If a Besson came up for free and it worked in the same fashion I’d clean it and stash it as a backup backup backup :pant:
</QUOTE>

Since they weren't free, they didn't come home with me. The Besson was in incredibly rough shape, with cracks, red rot, massive denting... I was able to align the slide, but I'm not up to Extreme Patching - there's a reality show I'd watch... Today, on Extreme... Tom tackles a student Besson trombone. Can it be salvaged? Will it be relegated to repair apprentices to abuse? Find out... on Extreme Brass Repair...

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2020-03-12 10:01 p.m.

I just passed on a YSL-321 because it needed more work than I could do myself (slide end smooshed, cracked, leaking) and they still wanted $99 despite that unplayable flaw.

Assuming that's all that is wrong with it, that's a steal. Yamaha sells end crooks for a very reasonable price. Even if you went ahead and did a full slide alignment and cleaning you're at less than $400 for a decent single plug bass.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-13 9:19 a.m.

Any Edwards.

Fruitysloth · by **Fruitysloth** » 2020-03-13 11:25 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Any Edwards.[/quote]

Any particular reason? I'm interested to hear your feedback.

Bach42t · by **Bach42t** » 2020-03-14 6:56 a.m.

I traded a pbone for the horn I’d never buy, a Conn Director. I will Buy a 605 Cleveland before I buy the Director.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-14 9:04 a.m.

[quote="Fruitysloth"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="107059" time="1584105540" user_id="7573">Any Edwards.[/quote]

Any particular reason? I'm interested to hear your feedback.
</QUOTE>
Sure! Well for one I cannot achieve the sound I hear in my head. Many will say you eventually can but that's not been my experience. I'm also not into Thayer valves. The Rotax valve sections I'm sure play nicely but I cannot stand the design on the inline sections. I tried a Jim Markey horn @ Dillon Music last year and , for me, was a poor fit.

So while good for most of the free trombone world not a good match for me. For reference my instruments are as follows: 2 Holton TR 180 bass trombones and a lovely Corp Bach 50.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-03-14 7:05 p.m.

I repaired, modified, and built musical instruments for 40 years. I would never buy a Holton brasswind. IMHO, poor design and poor execution. Having said that, Holton/LeBlanc have some pretty damn good woodwinds!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-15 9:00 a.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]I repaired, modified, and built musical instruments for 40 years. I would never buy a Holton brasswind. IMHO, poor design and poor execution. Having said that, Holton/LeBlanc have some pretty damn good woodwinds![/quote]

Do you mean a Holton Bass trombone(brass wind)?? Yes there were some quirks and some inconsistencies during construction but there are some great instruments out there. I have 2 of them. I know another bass trombonist in New York who has several. You have to search.

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-03-15 10:53 a.m.

Some are ridiculously good. If I could have convinced a friend to sell his 9.5” bell TR180 I’d jump at it.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-15 10:59 a.m.

[quote="FullPedalTrombonist"]Some are ridiculously good. If I could have convinced a friend to sell his 9.5” bell TR180 I’d jump at it.[/quote]

Ahhh. I have a 9 and 1/2 inch one as well as a 10 inch version. I also know someone who has a pristine 9 and 1/2 inch one sitting in a closet. :(

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-03-15 3:22 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="FullPedalTrombonist" post_id="107222" time="1584283996" user_id="145">
Some are ridiculously good. If I could have convinced a friend to sell his 9.5” bell TR180 I’d jump at it.[/quote]

Ahhh. I have a 9 and 1/2 inch one as well as a 10 inch version. I also know someone who has a pristine 9 and 1/2 inch one sitting in a closet. :(
</QUOTE>

I really don’t like the Glantz bar, but his was worn to a comfortable rounded edge!

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2020-03-15 6:15 p.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]I repaired, modified, and built musical instruments for 40 years. I would never buy a Holton brasswind. IMHO, poor design and poor execution. Having said that, Holton/LeBlanc have some pretty damn good woodwinds![/quote]

The only thing I didn't like about my TR180 bass was the Glanz bar, something that could be easily fixed. Loved the sound!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-16 8:43 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]<QUOTE author="bigbandbone" post_id="107180" time="1584227145" user_id="4328">
I repaired, modified, and built musical instruments for 40 years. I would never buy a Holton brasswind. IMHO, poor design and poor execution. Having said that, Holton/LeBlanc have some pretty damn good woodwinds![/quote]

The only thing I didn't like about my TR180 bass was the Glanz bar, something that could be easily fixed. Loved the sound!
</QUOTE>

I'm in agreement with the Glantz bar too! However I do know some people who like it.

Fridge · by **Fridge** » 2020-03-16 10:28 a.m.

Edwards. I’ve never been able to get the sound I’m looking for. That being said, I tried one of Dave Taylor’s early Edwards that really played great many years ago. Not sure what the set up was then. I think a lightweight yellow bell. I prefer red or rose bells like a Conn or Hilton. My Shires is set up like a Conn.

brasslizard · by **brasslizard** » 2020-03-16 5:39 p.m.

[quote="Bach42t"]I traded a pbone for the horn I’d never buy, a Conn Director. I will Buy a 605 Cleveland before I buy the Director.[/quote]

The pawn shop I found the Yamaha and the Olds also had a Cleveland 605 as well as a Besson in extra-rough shape.

Once I move the Olds trombones along, I might go back and pick up the Yamaha. It's not like there's a thriving market for pawn shop trombones around here. I can usually find several to choose from. Usually if I can get them down to under $50, I buy them regardless of condition. But I did leave the Besson and the Cleveland. Both were $50. (marked at $69, but who pays sticker price in a pawn shop?)

Rrova · by **Rrova** » 2020-03-16 8:11 p.m.

Bach 50AF3. I want to like it but the valve range is uncentered for me. And the Gb paddle is at such an odd position. Maybe this particular example just wasn’t put together well. We’ll find out when Aidan’s Bach is ready.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-17 8:14 a.m.

[quote="Fridge"]Edwards. I’ve never been able to get the sound I’m looking for. That being said, I tried one of Dave Taylor’s early Edwards that really played great many years ago. Not sure what the set up was then. I think a lightweight yellow bell. I prefer red or rose bells like a Conn or Hilton. My Shires is set up like a Conn.[/quote]

You know you're not the first person who's mentioned that the early Edwards, specifically Dave's horn, was impressive. Someone also told me that they tried a very early Shires bass model that was incredible. But today's instruments in direct comparison? Not so much. Difference in the instrument, specifically materials, OR just blown away because it was different and new?? Interesting.

Conn100HGuy · by **Conn100HGuy** » 2020-03-18 5:36 p.m.

Getzen "The Dude"

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-03-18 7:02 p.m.

Any of the horns that are up for sale here in the classifieds.

:lol:

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2020-03-20 8:26 a.m.

I am finding this thread to be very entertaining. Kudos to the original post for stirring up the storm! What is that old expression?.......The two things you should never bring up in discussion are politics and religion. This topic is obviously one of the two things you should probably never discuss with other trombone players!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-20 8:56 a.m.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]I am finding this thread to be very entertaining. Kudos to the original post for stirring up the storm! What is that old expression?.......The two things you should never bring up in discussion are politics and religion. This topic is obviously one of the two things you should probably never discuss with other trombone players![/quote]

Why do you say this? No one here has gotten snarky have they? Discussing politics and religion can cause far worse results like broken friendships or worse.

Arrowhead · by **Arrowhead** » 2020-05-03 11:50 p.m.

[quote="jtbandmusic"]Any Olds. I've had a P24G and a trigger Recording. Both were in great condition; both were beautiful horns. Great slides. Both were unplayably flat, Flat, FLAT. Tuning slide all the way in. Still flat.

I tried different mouthpieces including Olds. Real Olds pieces were tiny compared others, and still flat. Tried shaving down shanks. Flat. Could never play anything with any ensemble. Splatty tone, bass and Recording.[/quote]

LOL.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. I love the Recording. Only small horn I will play on. Great, GREAT horn. I had to find the right mouthpiece. Once I got it tuned in with matching drones, no problems after that. I'm not sure why you had such a bad experience.

Horn I will NEVER buy:

Conn 8H- heavy slide, what's the point of a large bore horn w/out the F trigger? etc.

Shires small bores- too expensive- not really worth it.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-05-04 1:04 a.m.

I'm normally not picky with what I'm playing, but I honestly will never buy a new Bach.

I've had a few friends get Bach's that fell apart in one way or another, but they were student or intermediate horns.

The large bore Bach Soloist is actually a Benge 165-F with a different bell engraving, and I don't see the point of getting one when I can actually pick up a Benge 165-F, made with likely better quality, for a third of the price.

When I tried some 42's at Midwest Clinic, I didn't really like any of Bach's slides or anything. It may have been how they were prepped, but even Blessing's slides felt better than most of Conn-Selmer's slides.

Finally, Conn-Selmer likes to market Bach as better than it actually is, and the price reflects it. I can get a King 4BF or a Conn 88H and, unlike the 42, it'll have a 0.547 bore valve to match the dimensions of the horn, and I won't be paying the Bach marked-up price.

I'll consider a Mount Vernon horn, but Bach has certainly slipped in quality over the last decade, and they slipped bad.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-04 2:13 a.m.

[quote="Hobart"]I'm normally not picky with what I'm playing, but I honestly will never buy a new Bach.

... ... ...

... ... ...

I'll consider a Mount Vernon horn, but Bach has certainly slipped in quality over the last decade, and they slipped bad.[/quote]

You know all this – and you are, what, a 17 year-old high school student?

You've picked up a lot of (knowledge?) / (folklore?) in a rather short time! :idk:

GBP · by **GBP** » 2020-05-04 3:44 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Hobart" post_id="112008" time="1588568656" user_id="7669">
I'm normally not picky with what I'm playing, but I honestly will never buy a new Bach.

... ... ...

... ... ...

I'll consider a Mount Vernon horn, but Bach has certainly slipped in quality over the last decade, and they slipped bad.[/quote]

You know all this – and you are, what, a 17 year-old high school student?

You've picked up a lot of (knowledge?) / (folklore?) in a rather short time! :idk:
</QUOTE>

He is not too far off the mark. I would buy a Bach, just not without playing it first. I am a 58 year old. I do know someone who had a Bach bell setup for his Edwards valve section and that setup sounds very good.

PSJ · by **PSJ** » 2020-05-04 2:14 p.m.

Holton 181. Never played one that was very good. Over the years played a number of them.

Any Bach. Never could sync up to one of them. Tenor and Bass.

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2020-05-04 3:22 p.m.

A number of years ago, when the ITA Conference was at Eastman, I tried an Edwards .508 horn. (red brass bell & tuning slide, light weight slide, nickel gooseneck and sterling leadpipe) It played great, BUT... for the price was it that much better than the Lt16MG (with an H8 leadpipe) that I already played on. NO!

I`ve tried a few Rath`s , Not for me.

I did like the Fedchock XO .500 horn.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-05-04 4:38 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Hobart" post_id="112008" time="1588568656" user_id="7669">
I'm normally not picky with what I'm playing, but I honestly will never buy a new Bach.

... ... ...

... ... ...

I'll consider a Mount Vernon horn, but Bach has certainly slipped in quality over the last decade, and they slipped bad.[/quote]

You know all this – and you are, what, a 17 year-old high school student?

You've picked up a lot of (knowledge?) / (folklore?) in a rather short time! :idk:
</QUOTE>

Are you more qualified to speak on the matter because you get the senior discount?

Be nicer to 17 year olds, a lot of them are better than you.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-04 5:14 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]Are you more qualified to speak on the matter because you get the senior discount?

Be nicer to 17 year olds, a lot of them are better than you.[/quote]

Hobart (and Pauly),

Sorry about the snarkiness – I got carried away by Hobart's youthful enthusiasm. I'm sure that there are many 17-year-olds who are better trombonists than I am at my advanced stage of codgerness. I love and respect them all. Perhaps Hobart's a perfect example. But I have been around the trombone world a while, and try to comment (too much these days with nothing else to do) based on at least some personal knowledge or experience.

I'm not a Bach player myself (I've played Conn for decades, starting with a wonderful Conn 88H), but do know many fine players who love Bach trombones - new as well as old, and would be willing to rebut Hobart's bold assertions. I should have left it to them to respond.

I wish I got a generous "senior discount" on purchases from TromboneChat members! ;)

TromboneMonkey · by **TromboneMonkey** » 2020-05-05 12:00 p.m.

Interesting that many of the choices here are based on perception of the brand/player and not the playing characteristics.

Anyway, I'd never liked a BAC that I had tried until ATW this year; played a paseo that was delightful, although not enough for me to part with my Lawler. I've played great horns from most brands, I guess, so I couldn't definitively say "x brand" is a no-go. If I didn't like the price on something I'd get it used or save my pennies; if I really liked it, it would be worth it at anything that trombones go for (seriously, have you guys ever even seen a violin?).

If I had to pick individual models or eras, that's a different story. Every new King horn (Elkhart-made) I've played has been a dog. I haven't liked any Bach horn or mouthpiece made later than 1990 that I've ever tried, and I've tried many. I really want to like them. I'd never buy a Shires MD but like the MD+. The guys a Baltimore Brass make fun of me for hating on every Conn small bore I've tried there, but I bought a 100h from them which was a doll.

You get the idea. You try stuff and you might be surprised. I'm not in the market for a .477 bore but if someone I knew and trusted swore by it I'd at least blow the thing. Why not? I certainly wouldn't be like "bruh. never ever would I even think about buying that."

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-05-05 1:42 p.m.

I like all trombones I get a chans to try which is very expensive and once they are mine I can not sell them. I need to limit myself, so I won't buy student horns unless they have a very good reputation and have a rumour of being used by enough professionals. I have no favourite brand and no brand I don't like.

/Tom

MagnumH · by **MagnumH** » 2020-05-05 2:28 p.m.

[quote="TromboneMonkey"]Interesting that many of the choices here are based on perception of the brand/player and not the playing characteristics.

Anyway, I'd never liked a BAC that I had tried until ATW this year; played a paseo that was delightful, although not enough for me to part with my Lawler. I've played great horns from most brands, I guess, so I couldn't definitively say "x brand" is a no-go. If I didn't like the price on something I'd get it used or save my pennies; if I really liked it, it would be worth it at anything that trombones go for (seriously, have you guys ever even seen a violin?).

If I had to pick individual models or eras, that's a different story. Every new King horn (Elkhart-made) I've played has been a dog. I haven't liked any Bach horn or mouthpiece made later than 1990 that I've ever tried, and I've tried many. I really want to like them. I'd never buy a Shires MD but like the MD+. The guys a Baltimore Brass make fun of me for hating on every Conn small bore I've tried there, but I bought a 100h from them which was a doll.
[/quote]

Haha, I did notice that - a lot of brand loyalty/anti-brand feeling.

I actually snagged that Paseo from ATW this year for myself - the only other horns that came close to it for me were the M&W (also sold by Dillon) and the trusty 3B/3B+. Didn't even like the Shires MD anywhere near as much, or the Courtois.

Lawler wasn't there, but there was one guy carrying around his own Model 3 and trying mouthpieces who let me try it (it was a pre-virus time!) and it played beautifully - just not quite enough to make me go fully modular over the ready-to-buy Paseo.

Interestingly, I also tried the BAC Plaza at ATW - the .547 model - and didn't like it at all. It's possible that the Paseo they had there was a lucky one, I guess, but I love it.

TromboneMonkey · by **TromboneMonkey** » 2020-05-05 2:29 p.m.

I was the guy. :-D

I liked that M&W too!

MagnumH · by **MagnumH** » 2020-05-05 2:31 p.m.

[quote="TromboneMonkey"]I was the guy. :-D

I liked that M&W too![/quote]

Aha! Thank you for your conversation and the trial of your excellent horn! Did you grab a mpc in the end?

TromboneMonkey · by **TromboneMonkey** » 2020-05-05 2:42 p.m.

[quote="MagnumH"]

Aha! Thank you for your conversation and the trial of your excellent horn! Did you grab a mpc in the end?[/quote]

Of course; it was great chatting with you!

I did-- Doug set me straight (again). I told him what I wanted and he spun together a MT100D3 and I just walked away with it and have been enjoying it ever since.

I'm glad you got that Paseo!

BillO · by **BillO** » 2020-05-07 7:57 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]...

A Bach alto.

...[/quote]After buying one of these some decades ago and spending 3 years trying to make it work, I have to agree. Never again!

In fact, the experience soured me on Bach in general.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-07 10:58 p.m.

I am beginning to think Shires is devaluing the currency.

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2020-05-09 8:36 a.m.

[quote="Andre1966tr"]My first trombone was a Blessing Scholastic, worst horn I can imagine...

BAC: I don´t like the design, especially the Mason horn

Lawler? I don´t like screw bells

Not a dispassionate evaluation.... I know :-)[/quote]
..

Have you tried many horns that have a screwbell? Roy Lawler will also make anyone a standard non-screwbell trombone.

..

AwesomeDad · by **AwesomeDad** » 2020-05-26 2:29 p.m.

[quote="Trevorspaulding376"]Sad to hear that , Mike makes some terrific instruments I have a custom 6 that is phenomenal

Also have a lawler 3 that’s incredible , those are 2 great craftsmen to be firmly against one of their horns ..[/quote]

I can only speak with my experience with BAC I had called and inquired about a custom lacquer job for a trumpet I had custom work done on elsewhere. Got the quote and timeframe and had my guy send my horn to them after his part was done. What was supposed to take 5 weeks max ended up taking 5 months. Due to bell damage during the lacquer phase. Did they make it right yes, was it a painful process YES! so I’m reluctant to use or buy anything BAC. And I can confirm another person that had epic issues with a flugel from them....

JJ

Trevorspaulding376 · by **Trevorspaulding376** » 2020-05-26 2:48 p.m.

I had some work done about 6 years ago very minor work but done in a week.

Stuff happens and I know some have had issues but I have some amazing amazing horns mt vernons Williams etc and Id put my custom BAC 6 as good or honestly maybe even slightly better. It’s a phenomenal instrument and work of art at the same time. I’m not sponsored not a spokesman etc , maybe I got lucky but he puts out some great quality stuff if you shell out for the custom line

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-05-26 4:11 p.m.

[quote="FullPedalTrombonist"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="107224" time="1584284347" user_id="7573">

Ahhh. I have a 9 and 1/2 inch one as well as a 10 inch version. I also know someone who has a pristine 9 and 1/2 inch one sitting in a closet. :([/quote]

I really don’t like the Glantz bar, but his was worn to a comfortable rounded edge!
</QUOTE>
The Glantz bar is the next best system in my opinion. If you compare to split triggers then they are not as good, but compared to side-by-side-rollers the Glantz bar is good. I have a Holton 180 with split triggers and one in original with the Glantz bar and if I compare them the one with the Glantz bar is better balanced.

/Tom

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2020-05-27 12:23 a.m.

I tend not to buy new horns. The only new horn I’ve purchased was my shires over a decade ago.

I find that horns I used to hate have a totally different flavor now... I try everything I come across now.

TyDeWein · by **TyDeWein** » 2021-07-16 4:50 p.m.

I learned a ton from this thread :-)

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2021-07-16 6:37 p.m.

Anything Bach currently makes.

imsevimse · 2021-07-17 5:33 a.m.

I thought I'd never buy a Chinese made Thomann trombone but now I own eight of them. I bought them just to know if what's often said about them is true or not. The bass trombone I bought has a tone where the bell rings that needs to be fixed. It can be heard by me who is closest to the bell but should not be a problem in a big band where everything is rather loud. I would not have bought this one if I had the opportunity to try, but playability is still good and sound is fine.

I will have the bass fixed in August. All the others are good and much better than can be expected compared to their price. I compared the small bore tenor with my Yamaha 891Z which is my main horn for jazz. The Yamaha is better but then it also cost 12 times the Thomann and I'm convinced I could use both professionally without anyone hear the difference. This means the Thomann is close to 12 times better compared to its price tag.

/Tom

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-07-17 6:35 a.m.

Any instrument made in China because of current human rights issues

imsevimse · 2021-07-17 8:35 p.m.

[quote="Vegasbound"]Any instrument made in China because of current human rights issues[/quote]

Oh, that's politics. I respect that, but then there is a lot more we should not buy from China. Modern equipment that runs on electricity like computers have its parts made there and a lot of other things also are made there.

We'll see what happens in the future. One reason I bought all trombones now is I predict that both US and EU eventually will have to add more fees to all things made in China. Back in time their stuff broke easy and especially the matereal they used for musical instruments was bad, and quality control on instruments did not exist. Ten years ago it was true their products were both cheap and bad, but not any more.

But one question remains. How come a Thomann trombone costs 1/12 of a Yamaha, when both instruments could do equally well in a pro situation if you ask the audience? Isn't the Yamaha somewhat overpriced? Could the pro line horns be made cheaper? I think so.

/Tom

harrisonreed · 2021-07-17 9:06 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Vegasbound" post_id="152973" time="1626518137" user_id="7093">
Any instrument made in China because of current human rights issues[/quote]

But one question remains. How come a Thomann trombone costs 1/12 of a Yamaha, when both instruments could do equally well in a pro situation if you ask the audience? Isn't the Yamaha somewhat overpriced? Could the pro line horns be made cheaper? I think so.

/Tom
</QUOTE>

Because the workers are massively exploited in China. When you are buying a Japanese-made Yamaha, you are helping to pay for the employee's wage, that buys them their monthly housing in Hamamatsu Japan and lets them live a safe life with lots of choices and freedoms -- Japan has arguably a higher standard of living than the USA. I can't speak to Yamahas that are made in China, if that is even a thing and I don't know how their employees are treated.

When you buy a Chinese horn, especially if it is 1/12 the price, you're saying with your wallet "I might be funding an operation that pays its workers enough to buy a bowl of noodles a day and live in company housing that has 12 adults per bedroom. They also might not be allowed to ever take a vacation or a day off". And the fact of the matter is, you won't have access to see what conditions those workers live in, but you can do the math and see that there is no way they are getting paid a living wage.

As you say, it's not just instruments where we need to worry about this - it's clothing, crap made out of plastic, and especially electronics. If you only care about the price and the quality, Chinese companies will of course win every time, and they will do it on the backs of a workforce that has no other choice. They can produce extremely high quality products, and because they can export it to countries who will pay pennies on the dollar for it, they can continue to pay pennies on the dollar to their workers.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-07-18 4:18 a.m.

I will add that we try not to buy anything made in China, the treatment of the uyghar Muslims is horrific and verging on genocide, then Tibet, slave labour etc

Sorry it’s politics but….

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-07-18 7:47 a.m.

A correction. I just noticed the Thomann is less than 1/13 of that Yamaha. I forgot I had to take into account that the Yamaha 891Z is more expensive now compared to when I bought it. The Yamaha was bought several years ago. <EMOJI seq="1f920" tseq="1f920">🤠</EMOJI>

In US a new quality instrument from an reputable brand is cheaper compared to the prices we pay in EU for the same instrument. A new instrument cost us about 30% more compared to your prices because our political governed welfare system needs that money to finance our schools, public healthcare and public transports among other things. It's the same with the Chinese instruments of course, but since they are so cheap in the first place the tax that is added feel like nothing.

/Tom

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-07-18 9:07 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]A correction. I just noticed the Thomann is less than 1/13 of that Yamaha. I forgot I had to take into account that the Yamaha 891Z is more expensive now compared to when I bought it. The Yamaha was bought several years ago. <EMOJI seq="1f920" tseq="1f920">🤠</EMOJI>

In US a new quality instrument from an reputable brand is cheaper compared to the prices we pay in EU for the same instrument. A new instrument cost us about 30% more compared to your prices because our political governed welfare system needs that money to finance our schools, public healthcare and public transports among other things. It's the same with the Chinese instruments of course, but since they are so cheap in the first place the tax that is added feel like nothing.

/Tom[/quote]

If you know what a reputable brand is, you probably already know deep down what the moral issues are, or might possibly be.

Owning eight musical instruments, by any measure, is exorbitantly consumerist and by itself would put you in the top 1% of all human beings who have ever lived in terms of total resource consumption. Don't you like your schools, roads, etc? There is a lot in the EU that I think works very well. A consumption tax is an outstanding way to finance those things, especially in a society where people can afford 8 instruments. It is a shame about your postal system though... don't know what happened there.

I do wish that the US used a consumption tax to better effect, but that's only because it wouldn't really affect me all that much other than to possibly help the environment. I hardly buy anything.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-07-19 4:56 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="153044" time="1626608869" user_id="3173">
A correction. I just noticed the Thomann is less than 1/13 of that Yamaha. I forgot I had to take into account that the Yamaha 891Z is more expensive now compared to when I bought it. The Yamaha was bought several years ago. <EMOJI seq="1f920" tseq="1f920">🤠</EMOJI>

In US a new quality instrument from an reputable brand is cheaper compared to the prices we pay in EU for the same instrument. A new instrument cost us about 30% more compared to your prices because our political governed welfare system needs that money to finance our schools, public healthcare and public transports among other things. It's the same with the Chinese instruments of course, but since they are so cheap in the first place the tax that is added feel like nothing.

/Tom[/quote]

If you know what a reputable brand is, you probably already know deep down what the moral issues are, or might possibly be.

Owning eight musical instruments, by any measure, is exorbitantly consumerist and by itself would put you in the top 1% of all human beings who have ever lived in terms of total resource consumption. Don't you like your schools, roads, etc? There is a lot in the EU that I think works very well. A consumption tax is an outstanding way to finance those things, especially in a society where people can afford 8 instruments. It is a shame about your postal system though... don't know what happened there.

I do wish that the US used a consumption tax to better effect, but that's only because it wouldn't really affect me all that much other than to possibly help the environment. I hardly buy anything.
</QUOTE>

First "reputable brand" to me is what is earned because of quality control, good customer support, long time happy customers who are ambassadors for the brand. Before a brand becomes reputable they often are dismissed for different reasons. It can be tactics from competitors, it can be low quality, it can be bad customer support. It can also be rumours that are spread that are not at all true.

Add to this the conditions for the workers. This is rather new concerns to the world. Who thought of the workers in the 30-ies? One reason unions have fought for rights for years is bad working-conditions as in bad wages and dangerous workplaces and insecure employments. In Sweden this lead to the rise of a strong Socialist party which really built and changed our country during the first half of the 20-ieth century. Note: Socialism is NOT the same as communism in Sweden and has never been.

Anyway, when a brand gets bad reputation like Chinese instruments have had historically they have a hard time to be reputable. What to do?

A couple of things they can do is increase quality control, make good instruments that they sell at low prices and try to make customers ambassadors of their products.

How long will this prolong before they get reputable?

I don't know, but as long as it goes on prices will be cheap and later when the time comes I think they will increase their prices. The quality now is good. If I compare to other reputeble instruments these are worth more than I payed. The reputation is a process and if you want to help the Chinese I do not think best is to boycott their business. They do things good, and we now need them. I think we instead need to have fees on their products, that is taxes to reduce the negative impact their business has on our own business. We can not have all our own industry bankrupt but at the same time I also think we could make use of that fee (money/tax) we then collect to use and help poor people in less developed countries. I think the Cinese instruments could sell for about three times what they are now sold for, but to be able to do this they need access to the market, they need to be sold in shops. Right now I think the Thomann instruments at arrival can be expected to be just as good as the Yamaha student line instruments, (at least) which have the best reputation of any student instruments at the moment in my book. Yamaha is a brand that has access to the market and we can "try before we buy" in our shops here. I predict prices will go up on Chinese products when they are imported and sold in shops. At the moment the ones who buy a Chinese instrument is a bit of a gambler, even though I found every one was a win.

I'm not spreading rumours that's for sure because I've now tried too many for this to be just coincidences. I really think they are good, or otherwise I would not have bought the next one and the next one until I had all I wanted. By the way I fixed the bass today. I made a "tone-ring" out of a velcro. This takes care of the ringing E-flat temporarily, and even looks good enough to show in public. It looks like a professional feature to me, like a professional fix. Anyway, later I want one that is made of brass and I will let my tech make me one.

I agree to everything in your post harrison. My last post was not meant as a rant it was to inform others here about the prices and tax conditions. In EU this is now the same everywhere. In Sweden we pay more than 50% in tax. In the first place 2/3 of what we really cost our employer becomes tax. Half of that are fees that the employer pays that among other things covers pensions and other government fees. This is money we as employees never even see. The other half of that is the income tax. It varies from 30-32% and depends on what the county decides.

If you have an income that is over a certain limit you also pay another 5% on what's over that limit. This is a special government tax. Since I'm privileged to have a good job that pays rather well I have to pay that 5% on all my income from music. This is because income from music is money that is added on top of my regular salary. It means I keep less than my fellow musicians who are not as privileged when we play gigs. If the government could see this they should employ me more because they will then get that 5% extra in tax on my money 😉 Note: My music salary is naturally as low as an employer possibly can pay, same as my friends. Isn't this the case for any job that they do not pay more than they have to?

Okey, back to the 1/3 thats left and we will keep. That 1/3 is put on our bank accounts. When we use that money we pay about 28% consumption tax on everything. Then I mean literally everything from food to services exept books and some other things like paying for food in restaurants where we instead pay a lower tax.

If I buy from US we pay the consumer tax and also pay about 3% in custom and a money conversion fee. That fee is added to the price after adding shipping.

We have a tradition of appreciating our strong government but reasently this has started to chance since people don't think they get the services they pay for. That is the backside. If it works it is good, but not when it's not working. At the moment violence has increased in certain areas that needs to be fixed and as it turns out at the moment our government don't know how to handle the situation. Then we wonder what they are doing with all the taxes we pay?

/Tom

Cotboneman · by **Cotboneman** » 2021-07-24 12:34 a.m.

I once thought I'd never buy another Bach, then in my old age I tried a 42AF with the Infinity valve and said "hmm..." I pulled the trigger on it and I can happily say I'm pleased with it.

I've never had any experience with BAC designs but can't say they appeal to me. They are also pricey. But on the other hand they did a fine restoration job on an old Getzen 1050 that I wanted restored for sentimental reasons, and I was happy with the work. So there's that.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2021-08-06 8:54 a.m.

[quote="brasslizard"]I just passed on a YSL-321 because it needed more work than I could do myself (slide end smooshed, cracked, leaking) and they still wanted $99 despite that unplayable flaw.[/quote]

I once stumbled on an early eighties Bach 42 (without quarter valve) at a yard-sale store in southern Sweden. The inner slide was badly corroded (with a small hole at the seam to the upper sock), the tube socks so much they made the slide stick. The case was badly molded and there was something funky going on with the laquer flaking and loosening on the slide grip. The bell was in good shape, and had me interested. Now brace yourself: The asking price on the tag was (the equivalent of) $2500....

Since it was a yard-sale store - or as it was labelled: Antique Store - I asked the shop owner for a bid. He countered that he didn't know much about instruments, and asked what I would be willing to pay; I said $300-500. He got severly pi$$€d and told me in a very brusque tone that he had had a speculant willing to pay full price for it. I, considerately and politely, said that the horn was virtually unplayable and needed a completely new slide to be put to use again, that the case needed sanitizing to be even remotely considered useable, and that I was mainly interested in the bell.

After me saying that, the owner-guy asked me to immediately leave the store, or he'd throw me out. He seemed so aggressive that I thought he'd punch me.

A couple of years later, I walked by that same store and saw another guy at the counter, so I walked in and told him I'd seen a Bach 42 a couple of years before and asked if it was still in-shop. The guy disappeared into some back-store area and came back telling me to leave immediately and that they had sold the trombone for full price to a trombonist in the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra.

The thing is: At the time I knew the trombonists in said orchestra fairly well, and none of them had, to my knowledge, bought a used Bach 42. Also: Noone in their right mind would ever have bought that poor, maltreated instrument for anything near that asking price.

And I was trying to be fair..... :idk:

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-08-06 12:12 p.m.

A couple of years later, I walked by that same store and saw another guy at the counter, so I walked in and told him I'd seen a Bach 42 a couple of years before and asked if it was still in-shop. The guy disappeared into some back-store area and came back telling me to leave immediately and that they had sold the trombone for full price to a trombonist in the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra.

:lol:

BTW the 321 may well have been worth it if the crook that was damaged and if that was the only problem. Crooks are cheap, could have probably had a decent playable bass for sub $300

mcphatty00 · by **mcphatty00** » 2022-06-17 10:14 a.m.

I have 2 brands: Bach and Yamaha

I sound amazing on Bachs, but really can't stand the way they feel. My college professor was a Bach clinician while I was in school and every time I played his horns I just couldn't stand them.

I don't really like anything about Yamahas. I wouldn't steer anyone away from them, but I do not like them.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2022-06-17 10:45 a.m.

[quote="JBone"]

That said, I'm not likely to ever own one. I'm happy with my current large tenor, I went through all of high school and college on an 88H, and my trombone instructor (with whom I started studying AFTER having bought the 88H) spent several minutes griping each lesson about how he wished I had bought a 42B instead.[/quote]

Help me understand this. The criteria taught in my training was only that the horn should not hold the player (student) back. Virtually any horn from 0.525 to 0.547 with f-attachment was acceptable whether it said King, Bach, Conn, Rath, Shires, or whatever on the bell. Did this instructor think the 88h was holding you back?

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