"Plays bigger than it is..." - questions

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-01 3:04 p.m.

Occasionally I read about a horn that "plays bigger than it is", which I think means that it tolerates high volumes or has a more resonant low register than is typical for its bore size. Is that right? What makes a horn play "bigger than it is"? Does the mouthpiece affect the "playing size" of a horn? Are there horns that "play smaller" than they are?

Fruitysloth · by **Fruitysloth** » 2020-03-01 3:16 p.m.

To me, I feel that a horn plays smaller than it is when things are put together under stress or put together improperly, causing the horn to not resonate as it should. On the other end, not exactly opposite however, a horn plays bigger than it is when the horn sounds bigger than what I perceived it could.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2020-03-01 3:21 p.m.

If 10 people respond to this, you'll likely have 15 answers to the question! The interpretation is that it plays like a horn of a bigger bore size. You'll hear this a lot about Shires horns in particular. E.g. some players find that their 508 horns play more like other 525 horns.

So really what this question is asking is, "What is the difference between bore sizes?" There can be a lot of overlap and so making something that is totally generalizable is really hard. But some common tendencies are that you'll have a 'darker' or more broad tone the larger you get, and a brighter or more piercing tone the smaller you get. You'll also likely find that larger instruments tend to "redline" more slowly. E.g if you were to play a very small horn, you would not need to be producing as much volume in order to sound loud whereas a larger horn might allow you to play very loud without "sounding" like it's playing that loud. It can also mean that it has a good low register as you indicated.

I find that the mouthpiece does affect the "playing size" of the horn; the most evident example of this for me is when I switch between small and large shank 525 horns. YMMV and it depends on what mouthpieces work best for you on a given horn.

I'd say that while it's possible to have a horn that "plays small", it seems that the corollary doesn't really exist and individual parts of the playing are indicated instead. E.g. that a horn is stuffy or inflexible rather than saying that it plays small. That said, the Duo Gravis probably would fit the bill for that description in that a lot of players find that if they were to use one, they'd use it exclusively for commercial work because of its brightness so I think you could make the argument that at least some people find that that model plays small.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-03-01 3:23 p.m.

Lots of things can affect that, making a horn feel bigger or smaller than similar size horns. Different parts of the horn have tapers or other sizes that are choices the designer and manufacturer make. The leadpipe, slide crook size and shape (single radius or dual radius, or assymetrical), neckpipe, tuning slide taper and shape, and bell taper and flare.

And the quality of assembly, and any possible leaks or badly fitting parts.

The same sorts of things apply to mouthpieces.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-03-01 4:38 p.m.

One way I think of it is "sound per energy input," how much sound you expect to come out of the bell with the effort you put in.

Horns that play "the size they are" or maybe smaller: most student instruments. Designed that way on purpose, of course

Horns that play, by that scale, much larger: Bach 6

There's the other scale, which is how big a horn feels, bore-size-wise.

Again, student horns feel pretty small in general.

Horns that play bigger: Shires small bores usually show up here. Bach 6 again! I've also played a Selmer/Williams .485 that fit into both categories, uproariously loud and felt bigger than a 3B.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-03-01 5:26 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]uproariously loud and felt bigger than a 3B.[/quote]

Uprouriously...LOVE IT!

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2020-03-01 5:41 p.m.

I think that horns with solderless rims play bigger, there's less "gak" on the attack when things get loud.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-03-01 10:17 p.m.

Thats what she said!

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-03-01 11:37 p.m.

Bach 6, biggest horn of all time.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-03-02 12:35 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Bach 6, biggest horn of all time.[/quote]

Don't know if that's sarcasm, but I can say that I have a Bach 6 Mt. Vernon and it's a very good horn!

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-02 12:56 a.m.

So- let me see if I understand this. Generally, a bigger bore is louder at lower partials than a smaller bore and therefore should have a more resonant low register, but certain variations in design and manufacture may emphasize lower or higher partials in any given bore size. A smaller bore horn sounds louder at lower volumes because it emphasizes higher partials, therefore is brighter and brightness seems louder; but its low register tends not to sound as full. A larger bore horn permits greater volume in sheer decibels without getting as bright. The mouthpiece can have a noticeable effect on both the timbre and the volume achievable on a given horn. And a gifted designer can make a really resonant, easy-blowing horn that seems to sound like a horn with a bigger bore. And of course, the player is the biggest factor. Do I have it about right? So with mouthpieces, what aspect tends to make a horn “grow” most - rim aperture, cup depth, cup contour, throat, bore?

biggiesmalls · 2020-03-05 1:20 p.m.

FWIW, whenever I've compared two horns of the same make and model with different weight outer slides, the horn with the heavier outer slide almost always seemed to blow bigger and sound darker behind the bell. Maybe the heavier outers dampen the higher partials and reduce feedback to the chops?

Just one more factor to throw into the mix...

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-03-05 1:45 p.m.

[quote="biggiesmalls"]FWIW, whenever I've compared two horns of the same make and model with different weight outer slides, the horn with the heavier outer slide almost always seems to blow bigger and sound darker behind the bell. Maybe the heavier outers dampen the higher partials and reduce feedback to the chops?

Just one more factor to throw into the mix...[/quote]

I've seen this effect "in spades" (for non-Pinochle players, spades are the highest ranked trump cards) with my TIS Conn 40H. Really plays big. I can see why Lewis Kahn loves his TIS Conns.

PaulT · by **PaulT** » 2020-03-05 8:42 p.m.

I am not sure the phrase "plays bigger than it is" has any meaning at all (outside of subjective horn bragging). But, if it does, is it a good thing? I want my .525 to play and sound like a .525. I don't want it to play and sound like a .547, I already have .547.

Horns don't sound bigger than they are, they sound like what they are. Pick the sound you like. Make make the sound you want.

hyperbolica · 2020-03-05 10:46 p.m.

It is definitely a real thing. I don't like how small bore horns play, but I had a 24h (485 bore) that felt great. My friend has a NY 6 that plays/feels like a much larger horn. Those are "plays bigger than it is" in a good way.

I had a Shires 525 for a time and it played like a 547, which I thought was a bad thing. I wanted a lighter feel.

Its just about relative feel. You get used to what a 500 bore should feel like and compare other horns to that. It could be many factors as some have mentioned, but it's a definite real effect.

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-06 1:27 a.m.

[quote="biggiesmalls"]FWIW, whenever I've compared two horns of the same make and model with different weight outer slides, the horn with the heavier outer slide almost always seemed to blow bigger and sound darker behind the bell. Maybe the heavier outers dampen the higher partials and reduce feedback to the chops?

Just one more factor to throw into the mix...[/quote]

Interesting observation. I wonder, though; I play a 2B with a Butler carbon fiber outer slide, and other than weight, it’s indistinguishable from the original brass outer. Well, speed, too. It’s easy to play fast.

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-06 12:21 p.m.

[quote="PaulT"]I am not sure the phrase "plays bigger than it is" has any meaning at all (outside of subjective horn bragging). But, if it does, is it a good thing? I want my .525 to play and sound like a .525. I don't want it to play and sound like a .547, I already have .547.

Horns don't sound bigger than they are, they sound like what they are. Pick the sound you like. Make make the sound you want.[/quote]

This is good. Thank you.

biggiesmalls · 2020-03-23 10:16 p.m.

I've found that two different horns of the same bore size, which may sound very similar to a keen listener in front of the bell, may at the same time feel and sound like very different horns to the player behind the bell.

And the way a horn feels and sounds behind the bell can influence the way we express ourselves through the horn.

I may feel more comfortable on the horn that feels and sounds "bigger," or maybe more comfortable on the horn that feels and sounds "smaller." Either way, I will probably play more expressively and with more confidence with the horn that has the feel and sound I prefer from behind the bell.

CheeseTray · by **CheeseTray** » 2020-03-23 11:05 p.m.

I think that for me, two things make a horn "play bigger than it is." 1. The instrument feels less resistant than I expect an instrument of that size/type to feel, & 2. The instrument feels and sounds much more resonant than I expect an instrument of its size to feel.

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2020-03-23 11:07 p.m.

[quote="CheeseTray"]I think that for me, two things make a horn "play bigger than it is." 1. The instrument feels less resistant than I expect an instrument of that size/type to feel, & 2. The instrument feels and sounds much more resonant than I expect an instrument of its size to feel.[/quote]

+1

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-24 10:34 a.m.

There's big and then there's fat. Get the difference???

Anonymous · by **Anonymous** » 2020-03-24 10:48 a.m.

fwbassbone · by **fwbassbone** » 2020-03-25 9:18 p.m.

Many years ago I had a straight 36 that played like a 42. It was the "biggest" 36 I've every played. I don't know why but I wish I still had it. (loaned to a friend and it was stolen out of his car)

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-27 1:14 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]There's big and then there's fat. Get the difference???[/quote]

You mean, “big boned?” No I don’t get the difference. Can you elaborate?

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-28 10:17 a.m.

[quote="Reedman1"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="107942" time="1585060454" user_id="7573">
There's big and then there's fat. Get the difference???[/quote]

You mean, “big boned?” No I don’t get the difference. Can you elaborate?
</QUOTE>

Well it's hard to describe-more like the "sound in your head" concept. BUT coupled with the right mouthpiece I feel that some horns can sound big, small, or fat. If I have an euphony I'll chime back in.

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-28 9:08 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Reedman1" post_id="108190" time="1585286042" user_id="3067">

You mean, “big boned?” No I don’t get the difference. Can you elaborate?[/quote]

Well it's hard to describe-more like the "sound in your head" concept. BUT coupled with the right mouthpiece I feel that some horns can sound big, small, or fat. If I have an euphony I'll chime back in.
</QUOTE>

I’m guessing that this points back more to the player than to horn...

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-03-29 8:56 a.m.

[quote="Reedman1"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="108273" time="1585405035" user_id="7573">

Well it's hard to describe-more like the "sound in your head" concept. BUT coupled with the right mouthpiece I feel that some horns can sound big, small, or fat. If I have an euphony I'll chime back in.[/quote]

I’m guessing that this points back more to the player than to horn...
</QUOTE>
Well isn't that technically always the case?

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-29 10:04 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Reedman1" post_id="108326" time="1585444099" user_id="3067">

I’m guessing that this points back more to the player than to horn...[/quote]
Well isn't that technically always the case?
</QUOTE>

It seems so. But my original question was about what makes certain instruments, in various people's opinions, "play bigger than they are". Do certain horns have ideal proportions, materials, workmanship that make them outstanding examples of their make and model, to the degree that either a player or a listener would be surprised at how great the sound was - independent of the player? I guess the answer has to be yes. Do certain makes/models stand out from the crowd similarly?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-03-29 10:56 a.m.

[quote="Reedman1"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="108342" time="1585486608" user_id="7573">

Well isn't that technically always the case?[/quote]

It seems so. But my original question was about what makes certain instruments, in various people's opinions, "play bigger than they are". Do certain horns have ideal proportions, materials, workmanship that make them outstanding examples of their make and model, to the degree that either a player or a listener would be surprised at how great the sound was - independent of the player? I guess the answer has to be yes. Do certain makes/models stand out from the crowd similarly?
</QUOTE>

"Plays bigger than it is" may not be better. As an extreme case, you don't want a small bore that sounds like a bass trombone. Some of the altos that sound like tenors may also be inappropriate at times.

If you are playing a situation that requires a smaller bore: lead in a big band for example, you don't want to sound like you are playing a symphonic tenor.

That said, heavier instruments seem to play "bigger". My TIS Conn 40H or my 1925 Olds TIS play bigger than they are. I'm sure it's the heavy slide with the TIS mechanism. But you will not mistake either one of them for a symphonic tenor.

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2020-03-29 2:54 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Reedman1" post_id="108344" time="1585490659" user_id="3067">

It seems so. But my original question was about what makes certain instruments, in various people's opinions, "play bigger than they are". Do certain horns have ideal proportions, materials, workmanship that make them outstanding examples of their make and model, to the degree that either a player or a listener would be surprised at how great the sound was - independent of the player? I guess the answer has to be yes. Do certain makes/models stand out from the crowd similarly?[/quote]

"Plays bigger than it is" may not be better. As an extreme case, you don't want a small bore that sounds like a bass trombone. Some of the altos that sound like tenors may also be inappropriate at times.

If you are playing a situation that requires a smaller bore: lead in a big band for example, you don't want to sound like you are playing a symphonic tenor.

That said, heavier instruments seem to play "bigger". My TIS Conn 40H or my 1925 Olds TIS play bigger than they are. I'm sure it's the heavy slide with the TIS mechanism. But you will not mistake either one of them for a symphonic tenor.
</QUOTE>

This all seems kind of funny to me. For many years, I played reeds. You don't have a jazz clarinet, a symphony clarinet, a rock clarinet, a salsa clarinet, etc. You have one clarinet and you adapt your technique as necessary. Pretty much the same for sax, though you might actually change your mouthpiece. Brass seems to be more idiom-specific, in weird ways, and trombone seems to be more so than trumpet. Is it that brass breeds a collector's instinct? ;)

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-03-29 3:13 p.m.

[quote="Reedman1"]Is it that brass breeds a collector's instinct? ;)[/quote]

It's know as TAS (Trombone Acquisition Syndrome) – or GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome).

Can be very contagious. Keep your distance! :roll:

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-03-29 3:16 p.m.

[quote="Reedman1"]Brass seems to be more idiom-specific, in weird ways, and trombone seems to be more so than trumpet.[/quote]

That's not true. Trumpet players have many more trumpets than the average trombonist, and wouldn't ever cross-contaminate their legit and commercial horns.

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