Teele book question

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-03-30 11:13 a.m.

With nothing but time on my hands during the pandemic I figured what a great time to tackle the no shift pedal range that Phil and othere's advocate. I just need to know I'm on the right track.

I can play down to pedal Ab without a shift and with volume and presence. I can play pedal G, but only mf. Pedals F#, F, and E are very soft but there.

If I keep playing PT's embouchure excercises diligently will I start do develop more volume and presence in that range? Or am I doing something wrong and need to step back and figure it our?

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-03-30 1:32 p.m.

It takes a lot of time for the no-shift approach, and you need to work on it a lot. A LOT. I've been doing a lot of pedal range exercises, and 6 months equaled getting down from G to F, but F is still soft. Getting an immediate and loud pedal range is something bass trombonists spend years getting.

Only tips I can give is learn to be efficient with your air. Slow it down and get the lips moving. You can't force it.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-03-30 1:43 p.m.

bigbandbone.... it takes a long time, a really long time. I did it after I left college. It's worth it as it allows you to do things that are not possible with a break or breaks.... but don't turn your back on your shifted pedals... it's best to have both. The shift becomes an overdrive, used when the regular setup is not strong enough or immediate enough.

Chris

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-03-30 2:11 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]bigbandbone.... it takes a long time, a really long time. I did it after I left college. It's worth it as it allows you to do things that are not possible with a break or breaks.... but don't turn your back on your shifted pedals... it's best to have both. The shift becomes an overdrive, used when the regular setup is not strong enough or immediate enough.

Chris[/quote]

Wow Chis! This stunned me. In my mind it was all or nothing. One or the other. I thought one would work against the other. I'm glad to hear both methods can co-exist.

I'm sure when we all start playing again there will be times when I will have to revert to a shift, but will keep working toword the no shift. I can see the advantages.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-03-30 4:20 p.m.

There's a good video out there with Alan Raph regarding the shift. He calls it the "raised embouchure" but it's the same thing.

Alan Raph is one of the great commercial bass trombone players, just like Phil Teele.

<YOUTUBE id="aNgZ1TK0h8Y">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNgZ1TK0h8Y</YOUTUBE>

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-03-31 3:57 a.m.

The PT book is a program where you work on the pedals on a daily order, without shift. It is good, and it works.

It takes much time. Most bass trombonists play pedals down to F-E with no shift, I the practis studio I play as low as there is pedals with no shift. I also pracise shifts from pedal Bb and down. Sometime on a gig I am expected to play a very loud pedal F, I may shift. I can play the note with no shift, but in the situation I am glad that I did practise the shift.

Buy the book, follow the instructions.

I did never meet any full time basstrombonist that did not in any situation shift. I did meet many basstrombonist.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-03-31 7:24 p.m.

I dug mine out today. Perfect for these long days at home.

Just to be clear, go down as far as you can without shifting (for me Db*) and then keep going with a shift. Slowly, over time, try to get lower without shifting?

* :bassclef: :line3: down two 8ve

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-04-01 3:22 a.m.

Please check the actual wording in the book.

I don't think it says to go as far as you can and then shift.

I think I remember it says to not shift, period.

But I don't have a copy handy to check.

Did anybody here actually study with him?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-01 3:41 a.m.

Looking through my book, he says not to shift 6 times. "Don't shift!" is the direct quote.

Might have to get these out this week, it's been a few years.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-01 3:53 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]The PT book is a program where you work on the pedals on a daily order, without shift. It is good, and it works.

It takes much time. Most bass trombonists play pedals down to F-E with no shift, I the practis studio I play as low as there is pedals with no shift. I also pracise shifts from pedal Bb and down. Sometime on a gig I am expected to play a very loud pedal F, I may shift. I can play the note with no shift, but in the situation I am glad that I did practise the shift.

Buy the book, follow the instructions.

I did never meet any full time basstrombonist that did not in any situation shift. I did meet many basstrombonist.[/quote]

Your usual wisdom, bravo !

Chris.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2020-04-01 8:40 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]I did never meet any full time basstrombonist that did not in any situation shift. I did meet many basstrombonist.[/quote]

:D

--Andy in OKC

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-01 10:54 a.m.

But if you can’t play the C B and Bb without shifting?

2 choices:

1. Keep trying without shifting even if those notes don’t come out at first (presumably they will eventually)

2. Shift, play those notes, and gradually reduce the shift

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-04-01 11:28 a.m.

3. Stop trying the notes that don't work and spend more time on the ones just above them.

4. The mouthpiece is too small for you. Move to one that does allow those notes without shifting.

5. But keep working on it, eventually you may be able to downsize and then you may be able to play those notes without shifting because you spent enough time doing it successfully.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-01 1:07 p.m.

Thanks Doug.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-01 1:30 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]3. Stop trying the notes that don't work and spend more time on the ones just above them.

4. The mouthpiece is too small for you. Move to one that does allow those notes without shifting.

5. But keep working on it, eventually you may be able to downsize and then you may be able to play those notes without shifting because you spent enough time doing it successfully.[/quote]

Doug....I'm interested. Why is it always bigger ? Even when you haven't seen the people ?

I used to play your 116,L L8 and it worked fine...I now play a MV Bach 1 1/2G again and it works fine...range was the same on both but the sound differed.

Chris

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-01 1:34 p.m.

I’m on a Yeo. I don’t think it’s too small.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-01 2:15 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I’m on a Yeo. I don’t think it’s too small.[/quote]

I would suspect the same. What you are trying to do is develop lip tissue elasticity and this takes a lot of time. Glissing down from the notes you can play toward those you are trying to play can be helpful.

Chris

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-01 2:30 p.m.

Without shifting yes?

Thx CS.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-04-01 2:39 p.m.

Yes it takes a lot of time to develop (and maintain) the elasticity necessary. BUT everybody is different, both in embouchure type and lip texture, both are major factors in what works. Some players don't naturally have the lip tissue elasticity that others do.

And it can vary by temperature, humidity, diet, etc. You can have a day when nothing works. But bigger sizes, if you can handle it, give a huge advantage there by being more forgiving.

The vast majority of players are the Reinhardt IIIA embouchure that I refer to as "Very high placement" which is still ambiguous because it doesn't always look very high, especially on bass trombone. That embouchures type CAN and in most cases "should" play large mouthpieces, because there are many advantages and few disadvantages for them.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-01 3:10 p.m.

Thank you again gentlemen.

I’m a IIIA/ IIRC.

Perfect time to consider such matters.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-01 4:57 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Yes it takes a lot of time to develop (and maintain) the elasticity necessary. BUT everybody is different, both in embouchure type and lip texture, both are major factors in what works. Some players don't naturally have the lip tissue elasticity that others do.

And it can vary by temperature, humidity, diet, etc. You can have a day when nothing works. But bigger sizes, if you can handle it, give a huge advantage there by being more forgiving.

The vast majority of players are the Reinhardt IIIA embouchure that I refer to as "Very high placement" which is still ambiguous because it doesn't always look very high, especially on bass trombone. That embouchures type CAN and in most cases "should" play large mouthpieces, because there are many advantages and few disadvantages for them.[/quote]

Okay, I'll buy into that in some respects. The last day I used the 116 we had a three hour second round audition with our brass section for a new principal trombone. All the toughest excerpts eight times in three hours played by the whole section. It was brutal for all and I particularly disliked playing the Wagner Miestersinger overture bass trombone with the tune part eight times. I just couldn't sound like a tenor on that piece. The 1 1/2G went back in from that day.

Here in the UK sound concepts are different and with the young generation of bass trombone players, the old Conns and Bach 2G and 1 1/2G rule the roost.

The match of the mouthpiece to the instrument is just as important if not more important than the match to the player and old Conns like smaller mouthpieces.

I had a young pro come to me for a lesson a month ago. He was playing a massive mouthpiece that gave him no upper register and little stamina, but he thought he needed to use such a thing . I found him something a little smaller... well actually about 15 prospects, and it was the last one... finally it worked for both player and instrument.

So, big mouthpieces can, as Doug says, offer advantages, but if you have no endurance or upper register on one, you might want to think again. ... and it has to match the insrument as well.

Chris

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-04-01 8:19 p.m.

Is the PT method something like an upside-down approach to the highs? I mean, if you can stretch your 12th partial set down to the pedals, you'll have immediate access to all those notes.

Does Phil basically work this the other way, dragging a big sounding pedal set up?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-01 8:25 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Is the PT method something like an upside-down approach to the highs? I mean, if you can stretch your 12th partial set down to the pedals, you'll have immediate access to all those notes.

Does Phil basically work this the other way, dragging a big sounding pedal set up?[/quote]

No. He's all about playing the low range more like your higher range.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-04-01 10:57 p.m.

If someone has no endurance or upper register on a big mouthpiece size (or any size), they're either a different embouchure type that has no business playing that size or they're doing something seriously wrong.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-02 4:12 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]If someone has no endurance or upper register on a big mouthpiece size (or any size), they're either a different embouchure type that has no business playing that size or they're doing something seriously wrong.[/quote]

The only thing this boy was doing wrong was playing on a very large mouthpiece. He came back for his next session with his playing transformed in every way...even his sound was richer and fuller...control in all registers was restored and he reported much better stamina.... and that mouthpiece is around your 112 size, so is not small.

A few years back , a new student arrived at the Conservatoire. He had auditioned the previous year and sailed in as an obvious talent.A year on, he walked in with a Stork 1 and a Shires truebore, with nothing above an F at the top of the tenor clef and the ability to play for no more than 15 minutes.... and a dreadful sound. He had gone for some lessons with a player in one of the symphonies up here and bought the same equipment that he uses... big mistake . What works for one does not work for another. As it happens, that symphony player is an ex student of mine and I put him on that Stork 1 nearly 30 years ago.

Everyone is unique.

Chris

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-04-02 4:52 a.m.

The P.T. book is working a lot on the pedals. But the high range is include. The high range on bass is very important!

I don´t know if any body is intersted in my equipment, but my basstrombone mpc is a Bach 1/4G, I do have some

1 1/2G:s, one of them is very good, I can play all note I ever need on it with good sound. But for me the 1 1/4 makes it easier to make the sound I want. My first bass mpc was a Holton 1 1/2G I was new to the bass and hade to play some pedal F:s in the (proffesional) big band. Before I hade practised pedals on 6 3/4C down to pedal F, thanx to my teacher. Whyat am I saying? You can practice pedals on small mpc too.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-04-02 6:46 a.m.

In the last several posts the upper register is mentioned. What is the required upper range for a working bass bone player? I've got a solid G above the bass clef staff. Is that enough or should I have more?

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-04-02 7:29 a.m.

I would say that a G above the bass clef staff is enough in (most) amature bigband and amature wind orchestra. (In those band you wont need very low pedals. Ab is prolly enough) I see C5 pretty often, more often then pedal F in fact. (C5 is above your solid G) Sometimes, but rarely, there are both higher and lower tones in proffesional band and orchestras. Some composers do find out what is really possible, and use it.

I think a working basstrombonist who have a range fro pedal E to C5 has the range needed.

And good timing, good sound, can play i tune and has good social skill, and good breath.

Good luck with P.T. follow the book, play with no shift as low as you can for now, add tones as you get stronger.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-04-02 9:59 a.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]In the last several posts the upper register is mentioned. What is the required upper range for a working bass bone player? I've got a solid G above the bass clef staff. Is that enough or should I have more?[/quote]

There is an arrangement of "All of Me" that goes up to the C above that.

If you play classical, the Farandole from L'Arlesienne Suite #2 goes to A above your G.

Remember, the 4th trombone in a Big Band spends more time as the 4th TENOR than as the bass.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-02 3:01 p.m.

I calculate at 60 bpm, two sets on each note and 3 min breaks between sets, one Day 2 session would take about 2 hrs and 20 min.

Says the great man, “This is a lifetime routine.” It can certainly feel that way.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-04-02 3:46 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I calculate at 60 bpm, two sets on each note and 3 min breaks between sets, one Day 2 session would take about 2 hrs and 20 min.

Says the great man, “This is a lifetime routine.” It can certainly feel that way.[/quote]

So you count? Somehow in my brain you played each note until breath ran out, 20 times for a set. I just watched his waking up video and it looked like they were playing half notes.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-02 3:53 p.m.

“Hold each note as long as possible” according to the book.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-02 4:00 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“Hold each note as long as possible” according to the book.[/quote]

Yup. Which is definitely not a whole note at 60 for most mortals.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-02 5:48 p.m.

Day 3 of Advanced Embouchure Studies.

The scale studies starting on a (very) low C was frustrating as I couldn’t get the note to speak. I managed a Db. And I ended up having to write in note names for the very lowest notes. On the plus side, I got up to the (very) high F.

So, resting 15 min now, before working my way down.

I see on page 11, PT says “Within a year, you should know how your embouchure works”. That should be just about right.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-04-02 6:49 p.m.

I don't understand the vitriol in these responses. Go at your own pace. Don't criticize. I've only been working this for 3 weeks and already see improvement in my low register. Alan Ralph's excercises are similar in that you play repetative pitches everyday till they become easier. His YouTube videos helped me from trigger F down to trigger B. Burgerbob helped me with attacks and presence. Now Phil's excercises are helping me to get farther down the scale. I'm becoming a better bass trombonist thanks to all three of them!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-02 6:54 p.m.

I didn’t sense any vitriol. I’ve found the discussion helpful. This is what the Internet should be like.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-04-02 10:33 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Day 3 of Advanced Embouchure Studies.

The scale studies starting on a (very) low C was frustrating as I couldn’t get the note to speak. I managed a Db. And I ended up having to write in note names for the very lowest notes. On the plus side, I got up to the (very) high F.

So, resting 15 min now, before working my way down.

I see on page 11, PT says “Within a year, you should know how your embouchure works”. That should be just about right.[/quote]

I guess that depends on how in depth the author is talking about. Seeing the Sarah Willis MRI video made me realize that I still am barely scratching the surface of really knowing what goes on in there, after thinking about my own embouchure for over twenty years.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-04 6:05 p.m.

Day 4 rest day yesterday and today day 5, same as day 2.

Today, I linked my Alexa to my IPhone and to the TE tuner app and practiced against the drone. That was interesting. Playing in tune was tougher than I expected and I had to play sharper. My metronome was set at 60 bpm. It took around 3 hours, but I took a break for lunch and some housework.

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-04-04 9:59 p.m.

I love this book because it’s great to play and watch Netflix or Hulu with the subtitles on. I have all that time to focus on how I take each breath and how it turns into a note, how each note is structured, how stable I am, how my face feels, how much I can make myself sound how I want... I like to take a lot of time with this book.

I want to start playing through it on more than just my main mouthpiece. Especially with a new-to-me Prime Slide Design coming in. I’ll have to set out my favorite 1-1/2G, my PSD’s, and my DE’s and give it a run on a mouthpiece a day.

I really think it’s possible to make a range of mouthpieces work. I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong when I play either my 1-1/2G or my DE114. I use a slightly different approach because they feel different and I want different sounds from each, but all the notes work

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-06 9:49 p.m.

Week 2, day 2. 2 sets each. Basically Eb down to E. I watched Rachel Maddow for the last half hour or so.

I took a slightly different approach today in that, after watching Phil at the Dutch open on YTube, I increased the volume (at the cost of the note length).

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-04-15 3:39 p.m.

I've been hitting the Teele excercises pretty hard and I'm becoming more and more convinced of the validity of his approach and the no shift embouchure. But as discussed above they are very boring.

So on the days I don't play his excercises I still want to practice the no shift concept. I've started using some old standards to make it more interesting.

For example I wrote out Stella By Starlight as GR did it with Kenton. Not just the opening phrases, but the whole song. First time through I play it in the upper register taking me up to high Ab. Second time through in the same range as GR's Kenton version with no shift. Third time through an octave below that.

I've done the same with several other tunes. Keeps it interesting!

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-04-16 6:47 a.m.

Yes that is a good way to practise. I have used the same song, playing in all ranges and all keys. It is a good practise tune.

Yes the PT stuff is boring, but it give you a good idea about how your embouchure works.

I don´t do the whole exercise normaly, I don,t have time for it, but in the corona make me have more time so now I have been doing it for some time.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-16 3:03 p.m.

Teele is something you do while watching a show, for sure.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-04-29 11:48 a.m.

Hey all, on a single rotor bass bone what position is double pedal Bb in. With or without trigger. If with trigger slide tuned to F or E?

Sorry if this is a pretty basic question, but I just cannot find that pitch!

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2020-04-29 12:04 p.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]Hey all, on a single rotor bass bone what position is double pedal Bb in. With or without trigger. If with trigger slide tuned to F or E?

Sorry if this is a pretty basic question, but I just cannot find that pitch![/quote]

Fake lipped down flat 2nd, or LONG flat 7th with the F tuning slide pulled to the end!!

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-04-29 12:54 p.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]Hey all, on a single rotor bass bone what position is double pedal Bb in. With or without trigger. If with trigger slide tuned to F or E?

Sorry if this is a pretty basic question, but I just cannot find that pitch![/quote]

That depends. Are you used to play false tones? Can you play the F under the staff on 2nd? The double pedal BBb is on that same position.

It is (strange enough) playeble on the position you play low Db, V5 if in F, V4 if in E.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-04-29 1:27 p.m.

Thanks Bonearzt and Basbasun for these alternatives. Are they all false tones? Are any a true note that will slot well once I get the hang of it?

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-04-29 1:34 p.m.

On a little horn, that note kinda sorta slots. It's bounded below but free above, so it feels like leaning into the lower bound a bit.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-04-29 3:22 p.m.

" Are they all false tones? Are any a true note that will slot well once I get the hang of it?"

Well, the false notes line up from the double pedal that is a major seventh below the normal pedal. The series is od numberd like 1 3 5 7 and so on. So in the second position the series is BBb - F - D - Ab (flat) - C. What is most used is the F what singel trigger player often us to play low C and B. The other tones mentioned is another question, they cant be explained with the false tone theory.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-18 12:55 p.m.

Another question for all of you Teele devotees. When you play the long sets of low tones do you remove the mouthpiece from your lips between notes, or keep contact with your lips between notes.

I seem to get a better result if I break contact between notes and then re-establish contact. But if that's wrong I'd like too know.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-05-19 4:06 a.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]Another question for all of you Teele devotees. When you play the long sets of low tones do you remove the mouthpiece from your lips between notes, or keep contact with your lips between notes.

I seem to get a better result if I break contact between notes and then re-establish contact. But if that's wrong I'd like too know.[/quote]
I remove the mouthpiece from the lips when doing PT. When I do the six notes I keep the contact.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-19 5:58 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]<QUOTE author="bigbandbone" post_id="113539" time="1589820935" user_id="4328">
Another question for all of you Teele devotees. When you play the long sets of low tones do you remove the mouthpiece from your lips between notes, or keep contact with your lips between notes.

I seem to get a better result if I break contact between notes and then re-establish contact. But if that's wrong I'd like too know.[/quote]
I remove the mouthpiece from the lips when doing PT. When I do the six notes I keep the contact.
</QUOTE>

<EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>Thanks

Johnstad · by **Johnstad** » 2020-05-19 1:09 p.m.

Great thread...

I'm in my 6th rotation of doing these routines. Some observations I'm having....

-Think of these as strength training. Follow the instructions and rest when done.

-Air is definitely getting more efficient.

-More relaxed high register...less tense and less pinching.

-Better connectivity between registers.

-Recognizing that I depended more on shifting to get through at the expense of embouchure strength/endurance.

I started with only on my bass for the first 3 rotations, adding/building sets. During the 4th rotation, I started adding my contrabass to the routine. I'm in my 6th rotation and doing these all on Contra.

Day 3 is today....wish me luck!

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-19 4:27 p.m.

[quote="Johnstad"]Great thread...

I'm in my 6th rotation of doing these routines. Some observations I'm having....

-Think of these as strength training. Follow the instructions and rest when done.

-Air is definitely getting more efficient.

-More relaxed high register...less tense and less pinching.

-Better connectivity between registers.

-Recognizing that I depended more on shifting to get through at the expense of embouchure strength/endurance.

I started with only on my bass for the first 3 rotations, adding/building sets. During the 4th rotation, I started adding my contrabass to the routine. I'm in my 6th rotation and doing these all on Contra.

Day 3 is today....wish me luck![/quote]

Good luck!

I'm up to 3 sets on the day 2 stuff. But I do all chromatic notes from the starting Eb

down to pedal Eb. On alternating days I do articulated notes in the same order ala Ralph.

Johnstad · by **Johnstad** » 2020-05-19 5:10 p.m.

For folks looking to do these, keep a log book. Log the number of sets you do, feedback for yourself to review. It's pretty cool reflecting on progress.

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-05-20 2:22 p.m.

It makes sense that spending lots of time in the low register would lead to better air usage, embochure strength, maybe flexiblility of lip tissue, etc. It also makes sense that less shifting/no shifting would make it easier to connect registers with a good sound.

I wonder how much of the benefit would be gained if similar exercises and time is devoted but also still use the shift?

It seems most professional serious bass trombone players use a shift and then focus on pulling the lower setting up and vice versa to allow for more flexibility in a passage. The focus seems to be in blending the different settings and timing it in ala Sam Burtis Bel Canto idea.

I'm a big fan of Reinhardt "pivot" style playing. It works great for me and makes sense. Playing without a "pivot/shift" seem counter to that idea. I get that no shift has benefits but it seems the strength/lip tissue flexibility required is needed due to the lack of leverage by using a small, subtle, well timed, shift.

If much of the benefit is from spending lots of time down there and getting more efficient and better due to the time, a shift seems to be less of a problem especially since most professional bass players use a shift. It does not seem to hurt their playing. Obviously it takes and effort to shift well but doesn't seem like shiftless playing is required.

It seems like Teele's specific demands of his job, long recording sessions at loud volumes in the basement, make his routine perfect for that specific gig. But for most bass trombone players, that is not what is required. Maybe some loud stuff low in a stage band or something but not the crazy low loud stuff required of a recording studio musician working on movies.

I also suspect that playing effectively without the shift is also heavily dependent on the face, lips, tongue, teeth, etc of the specific players. Some folks probably even with tons of time with these exercises, probably don't have a face for it. This seems to be the case with doodle tonguing. It seems some folks faces just don't get it going as clearly as others and no matter the effort or time, it probably won't be that good.

I'm going to experiment with these exercises for a while as best I can with the time I have, I want to decrease my habit of puffing cheeks too much and the no shift play a pedal like the note an octave up stuff is what I'm working on.

Caveat:

Most of this is post is just me asking the folks who do this type of routine often and have maybe taught it to see what they have found. I'm not pretending to be an expert on it or in any way crapping on the idea.

It makes good sense to me. Just asking questions, please take the question as I intend it. Thanks. :)

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-20 2:29 p.m.

I recently noted Mr Markey discussing shifting in a video he did on low range. My impression was that Mr M’s shift was closer to what most bass trombonists actually do.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-05-21 5:09 p.m.

What is a "shift". I take it as moving the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips. I do not believ that the "pivot" is a shift as the mpc stays on the same spot on the lips, even though there is an embouchure movement. I try to not change the mpc on my lips when doing the PT. Sometimes when I play loud low range in bands I do shift, move the mpc to get more upperlip that is for me. Two different situations.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-05-21 5:11 p.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]What is a "shift". I take it as moving the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips. I do not believ that the "pivot" is a shift as the mpc stays on the same spot on the lips, even though there is an embouchure movement. I try to not change the mpc on my lips when doing the PT. Sometimes when I play loud low range in bands I do shift, move the mpc to get more upperlip that is for me. Two different situations.[/quote]

My thoughts as well. A shift implies (at least to me...) that you're drastically changing the mouthpiece position on the face.

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-05-21 5:30 p.m.

There is plenty of confusion of what a shift means. It is a bad term. What happens is depending on the range, the angle of the mouthpiece and the chops slide up or down along the teeth. The location of the mouthpiece does not change.

If you watch any trombone player play harmonic series slurs, you can clearly see they are changing the angle of the horn and probably also sliding the chops up or down depending on embochure type.

Lips are weak muscles, in order to direct the air to the right spot in the cup for a given note, and to put the proper pressure on the proper lip, a subtle change in the angle and sliding of the chops up or down does that.

There is no taking the mouthpiece off and placing it again in a different spot so connecting the registers is not too tuff.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-21 6:27 p.m.

I had a lesson with DE and understand the difference. It seems to me that nearly everyone will have a significant shift for those last few notes.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-21 6:43 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I had a lesson with DE and understand the difference. It seems to me that nearly everyone will have a significant shift for those last few notes.[/quote]
But to put that in context, the purpose of practicing is to NOT shift so you get better at NOT shifting. My attitude is, if you have to shift for those "last few notes" then don't play them. Continue working down toward that point. You have to be patient, it can take months or years for real progress to happen but it's worth it.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-05-22 6:39 a.m.

Yes my idea too.

Maybe you do shift in some place where you really need to het the tones uot.

But when you do the PT exercise I think the idea is to not shift.

If you don´t get the tones, just blow air and hope that the tones will come one day. Don´t shift, keep the lips together. It does take time, if you want them keep trying. Take deep breaths. Blow thick but slow.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-22 6:45 a.m.

After spending 5 months working on the Teele excercises my "shift" point has moved 3 half steps down! When I started I was shifting for pedal Bb. Now pedal G is 50/50, and pedal Gb is my definite shift point. Being able to play octave jumps into the pedal range without shifting has made things like the opening phrase of Soul Bassa Nova a lot easier.

<YOUTUBE id="y-ndMMYhmi0">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y-ndMMYhmi0</YOUTUBE>

I guess the bottom line is do what you've gotta do to play the notes you gotta play.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-22 10:36 a.m.

Yes, I remember PT saying do what you have to do on the gig to get the notes, but don’t shift when you’re practicing the routines.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-05-22 12:31 p.m.

It really does take a while. Each further note down takes adjustment internally and embouchure wise from the note before it, and down in that range the trombone is almost a different instrument. You've gotta slow the airflow way down. Only practice will finally get it to work.

My bass trombone pedal range is the same whether I'm using a Faxx 1 1/2G or a Ferguson LS. Many great players used the Bach 1 1/2G and got great pedal tones and range. Just gotta work at it. Of course if your anatomy/style requires a bigger mouthpiece, definitely get one.

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2020-05-23 11:50 p.m.

I bought the Teele book in the mid-2000's, and set to work. Pretty quickly, I had some questions about the exercises that the book (leaflet?) didn't really answer. At the time (2007), you could purchase some videos of Phil describing his routine from a now-defunct website. So I purchased them, hoping to get some more tips, and importantly, to see and hear Phil do the exercises himself.

And it turns out I still have those videos!

I'm not comfortable uploading these anywhere at this stage, but I thought I'd take some notes and quotes from the videos and share them here for those that are exploring this routine. Quotes are Phil's, parentheses are mine.

Day one:

- Phil starts on Eb because it uses both triggers, and implies you can start on D if that’s the way your horn is set up

- “If possible, you want to use a breath attack, not using your tongue, just using your breath to start the lips, then the lips will come right to the right spot”

- “You do 20 of those in a row, taking the biggest breath you can possibly take, hold it as long as you can, and play it about mezzo-forte, and then as you go through the second 10 you get a little louder, crescendo a little bit, so you’re playing pretty loud by the end of the 20th note.

- “You want to start out with just two sets for the first month at least, and thereafter, maybe every week or two, you want to add another set.”

- “You want to play loud notes, so that you’re pushing against the lips; you’re not blowing them apart, but you’re just pushing on them, so that there’s some resistance there.”

Day two:

- Again reminds us that we’re starting off using both triggers.

- “We’re starting on the Eb again in first position with both triggers, or if you’re in D you can start on D, or you can play your Eb in 3rd with the F-trigger”

- “That’s pretty much the volume you should play at (piu mezzo-forte to my ears?) but as you get to the 5th set, you can start playing louder”

- “If you feel something coming apart (pointing at the chops) then back off a little bit. You always want to keep your lips as together as you can. As you play louder, they’ll open up a little bit, but some people tend to open up like 'AAAAAHHHHH.' Don’t do that.” You play it the same way as you play a low A”

Day three:

- When describing the scales (which are listed at the start of Day 3) Phil says “Let me make a correction: Scale 4 is done with only an Ab and a Db in it, so it’s kind of an interesting sound”

- The book has the first 8 notes marked with a phrase mark. Phil breathes after every second note when he plays this phrase. As it gets higher, he breathes less often.

- “In the beginning, at the bottom, you’re going to have to take more breaths, obviously, but as you get more in the upper register, you take less and less of a breath, and try to make the whole phrase without taking a breath. But if you need to, you need to.”

Day 4/5:

- “If you’re ever in doubt about the position of how a note should be played, go back to an area you know, like the middle register, then play an octave lower in the same place”

I hope these notes are of use to someone. I've decided to revisit the routine, after not looking at it for a decade. I approach it a little sceptical as to whether this will actually be of any use to me at this point of my career. But with no gigs on the horizon, I have some time on my hands, so what the heck, maybe I'll learn a little something!

Andrew

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-05-24 12:08 a.m.

Really helpful stuff, Andrew!!

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-05-24 4:44 a.m.

Thank you Andrew, thats some good info! I will corect my scales.

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2020-05-24 5:47 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]Thank you Andrew, thats some good info! I will corect my scales.[/quote]

In regards to the scales, I suspect it’s a case of “ain’t what you do, it’s the way that you do it...”

Andrew

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-24 6:52 a.m.

Thanks for the great information Andrew!

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-05-24 10:32 a.m.

If not shifting is important and takes years of 2 hour practice on this one area to get rid of the shift, why do most top level professionals shift and advocate practicing the shift to make it work for what they do?

Clearly, it can't be that important. I can see how it would be a benefit and will incorporate a modified version into my practice but why spend that amount of time each day just to get a subtle benefit in an extreme range almost no one is called to play?

I don't have 5 hours a day to practice, and even if I did, it would seem a bit goofy to spend half of it playing long tones in the basement in order to get a subtle improvement due to no shift on notes that are rarely called for. If I could come up with a reason to become a basement expert, I might give it a go but I don't have one. There are too many other areas of playing that need to be maintained. All that focus down low, with the occasional high note exercise seems foolish. Not for Teele of course, but he has an unusual and uncommon gig and specialty.

I would be curios to see a traditional shifter and non shifter play similar licks to see if it makes any difference to someone in front of the bell. I'm sure it is easier for the non shifter to do some huge range extreme low stuff, but I doubt it sounds different in front.

This may be a species of a thing I see bass trombone players do. Kind of a macho, "see how low and loud I can play." So they buy giant heavy equipment, giant mouthpieces, and spend all day playing super loud low stuff. The audience doesn't want to hear it. The music doesn't call for it. It is purely for the benefit of the player and the couple of bass trombone players in the audience who freak out at a monster pedal note.

And, the string players are complaining to the union about the hearing damage and they put an acoustic aquarium in front of the bass trombone. Doesn't seem like art or music making to me. Also, has the detrimental effect of an unfocused core heavy sound that doesn't project well or blend, weak high notes, inarticulate articulation, etc.

Maybe the point is to build endurance for long gigs? That would make a little sense but I would find a more efficient way to build endurance while doing something that covers multiple areas while getting lots of face time. Watching a movie while blowing notes seems like you are building bad mental habits. So much of playing is mental focus. If I needed to improve endurance I would get the smallest most efficient equipment I can get away with and get lots of face time working fundamentals and sight reading or something in order to get the mental practice and focus in as well.

I'm not saying that is what is going on but it is the best I can figure. IMHO.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-05-24 12:26 p.m.

Well, it worked for Phil, who is unequivocally one of the most successful bass trombonists of all time, so there's that.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-24 12:55 p.m.

Different strokes for different folks. And IMHO sometimes the music does call for it and the audience does want to hear.

aasavickas · 2020-05-24 1:12 p.m.

Fair enough.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-24 1:19 p.m.

It seems there has always been a lot of resistance, in the low brass community especially, to ideas that involve playing attention to HOW you play. So many of the popular ideologies - and I would include Jacobs, Caruso, Maggio, and others - focus on letting your body figure it out on it's own. That has worked well for some people, mainly the ones who have made it into top positions and don't know how to teach any other way so they repeat it.

It's true that "most top level professionals shift and advocate practicing the shift to make it work" but virtually all of them also advocate minimizing it because they know it's a problem to work around.

I don't think it's necessary to spend hours on pedals, but it is good to do them in a mechanically correct way, and truly understand what that means, in order to "minimize" or eliminate the problems that shifting causes.

The Teele method is sort of a long workaround without having an understanding of how and why.

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-05-24 1:26 p.m.

Thanks Doug.

That makes perfect sense and answers what I'm trying to figure out. I agree, it seems most folks don't understand embouchure mechanics or what they think they know is goofy.

I figure it is like when working on a Reinhart style pivot/shift/mvt/whatever. At first when learning, maybe exaggerate the movement to get a feel for it and make it feel natural until it becomes a new habit. Then later, you work on minimizing, blending, smoothing it out. That makes sense to me.

This seems like a very inefficient way to get at proper embouchure mechanics in the low register. I'm sure it works when actually done as described but most/almost all folks don't have the kinda time to do it.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-05-24 2:18 p.m.

A few thoughts on shifting in the lowest register:

For the sake of this post, “shift” means a mouthpiece setting (physically moving the mouthpiece) in a manner inconsistent with the natural motion that any particular embouchure type commonly experiences in the register immediately preceding the notes that are played with a shift.

Example: A typical very high placement embouchure type will tend to feel that the mouthpiece gradually sits higher on the lips as the notes ascend, and will tend to feel that the mouthpiece gradually sits lower on the lips as the notes descend. For the very high placement embouchure type, this would mean deliberately re-setting the mouthpiece very high on the lips in the very lowest register. This is the “shift” that Teele wants us to avoid in the pedal tone register (fundamental tone), commonly beginning around pedal G or G-flat. Thus:

Pros of shifting:

Easier for notes to speak in the very lowest register

Easier to play very loud in the lowest register

You might need to shift in a performance situation in order to play the notes

Cons of shifting:

It takes time to move from one mouthpiece setting to another

The sound is inconsistent from one mouthpiece setting to another

It is difficult to produce fluid dynamic changes with a shifted mouthpiece setting

Pros of <I>not </I>shifting:

Eventually, with practice, things sound, respond, and feel consistent throughout all registers

Cons of <I>not </I>shifting:

It takes time, deliberate practice, and patience to develop consistency

You might need to shift in a performance situation in order to play the notes

I’m sure there’s more here…

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-24 2:31 p.m.

What do Doug Yeo’s fMRI videos show wrt the extreme low register?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-24 2:40 p.m.

It almost doesn't matter what it shows because nothing about it is the same as playing the instrument normally.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-05-24 4:17 p.m.

[quote="aasavickas"]If not shifting is important and takes years of 2 hour practice on this one area to get rid of the shift, why do most top level professionals shift and advocate practicing the shift to make it work for what they do?

Clearly, it can't be that important. I can see how it would be a benefit and will incorporate a modified version into my practice but why spend that amount of time each day just to get a subtle benefit in an extreme range almost no one is called to play?
[/quote]

I'm speculating a bit and please don't think I'm claiming any expertise.

I think that pro's might shift because they can; their skills and especially timing lets them do things we mortals and especially amateurs like me can't get away with.

The risk for an amateur is that we confuse ourself and become inconsistent, and sometimes that can take us down a rabbit hole. At the same time it's harder for us to learn to get down there without shifting. So we're kind of stuck either way. For me the risk is that shifting to get low might screw up the progress I've made in the middle and high register, which is where I normally play, so I do my best not to shift.

That said, I've never spent the time on Teele trying to see if I can get down there consistently without a shift. If I had a lot of time off it might be worth it but I'm still working despite the COVID and even busier at work.

On the alto pBone (sigh - my wrist is getting better but I'm still stuck playing that thing for a bit) the pedal Eb is the same note as trigger Eb on the tenor. It's starting to speak a little, not that I will ever be called on to play it.

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-05-24 8:45 p.m.

Most of the stuff I've read and seen on pivoting/shifting/whatever you call it, focuses on starting with figuring our what works for your anatomy and embochure type, then maybe exaggerate while working thru lip slurs up and down the harmonic series. Then once you get the hang of it, do it less and try to minimize the movement as much as you can. James Markey said something like, "move as much as you need to but no more." seems reasonable to me.

Also, I like a kind of bel canto/mixed voice approach. In singing, folks try to blend the different voices, i.e. take the chest voice higher, the head voice lower, create kind of a blended voice, then work on smoothing out the transition. If you need more power go for the voice that gets the job done.

Same idea with embochure. Take the low setting and play with it up as high as you can. Then take your high setting and take it down as low as you can. Kind of develop a mixed setting. Then go about smoothing out all the bumps or gaps.

It seems the Teele approach is to pull that upper setting down. Why not do both?

In my own playing, I do the pivot/shift/movement. I don't reset the placement of the mouthpiece but I change the angle of the horn a tiny bit and the chops slide on the teeth up or down a bit depending on the register a small amount. Now it is so subtle that you can't really even see the movement. It works for my face. I am pretty happy with my range. I can slur from a bottom line Bb up to a Bb an 2 octaves above middle C and back down to the double pedal Bb on one breath without taking the mouthpiece off and resetting. Can always get better but at least in my case, I figured out what works for my face.

I have never really spent much time working dragging the normal setting down into the super low setting but I am going to give it a go for a while and see how it goes. I'm sure it will help smooth things out even more.

Tongue position also plays an important role especially at the extreme high and low ends. Also, on the extreme low side, getting the air moving slow enough with very little push is tricky. I think one of the comments in the Teele book mentioned the slowness of the air.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2020-05-25 3:40 a.m.

Really great discussion and information!

I don't do the actual Teele method, but have in my youth (almost 20 years ago) for a while done something that kind of went in that direction. However I was missing quite some of the directions of HOW to practice it.

I think it was beneficial back then, however I had a strong and reliable low register basically from the start.

From today's perspective I had not practiced low register on the bass trombone for a long time, just touched it whenever I practiced bass, which was not very frequent for quite some time.

However for a few weeks now I more or less regularly do some exercises that are not the same, but follow the same general idea. I feel it very quickly made my low register, but also my overall bass playing much more stable and reliable again.

I take care to keep it well controlled and really follow the basics - keeping the corners tight, not moving/shifting the mouthpiece (too much) and full, relaxed breathing.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-05-25 9:33 a.m.

"It seems the Teele approach is to pull that upper setting down. Why not do both?"

Well you can say that. But I think the idea is to keep the setting when doing the scale exercise from C1 to F5 also. WOW to keep the same setting over the whole range.

But as said many times now, when doing a gig you do what you have to do.

My self, I do practise both play low and high whit the same setting. And practise the shift. Sometimes (very selldom though) it is needed.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-05-25 11:26 a.m.

I practised scale #4 today, its a gypsy scale isn´t it? Somebody? Tomas? It is kind of nice...

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-05-27 8:39 a.m.

Well, by now I have been practising the PT stuff for almost two month. (I did spend some time on it befor but not as serious) To me it has been some experince! Now I know that I can play scalen paterns from C1 to F5 with no shoft.

(but to play loud from pedal F and down I am pernitted to shift by my self, when playing music) and chromatic long loud tones, hundres of them down to A0. Well the lowest ones is not very loud :mrgreen: It has made me more avere about how my embouchure works.

But now I am finished with it in favor of music.

By PT stuff! :hi:

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-29 7:07 a.m.

Someone just posted Teele videos on YouTube. Good stuff!

<YOUTUBE list="PLMHAUg0ltt4Le7MwiuxAIfrf7gp_7JsEg"><LINK_TEXT text="https://m.youtube.com/playlist?fbclid=I ... f7gp_7JsEg">https://m.youtube.com/playlist?fbclid=IwAR3c0aqxIX86o-n2Iww6733-p2efEkAS7RRsd-rpMY0bcVWehaMBeinLXyE&list=PLMHAUg0ltt4Le7MwiuxAIfrf7gp_7JsEg</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-29 10:46 a.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]Someone just posted Teele videos on YouTube. Good stuff!

<YOUTUBE list="PLMHAUg0ltt4Le7MwiuxAIfrf7gp_7JsEg"><LINK_TEXT text="https://m.youtube.com/playlist?fbclid=I ... f7gp_7JsEg">https://m.youtube.com/playlist?fbclid=IwAR3c0aqxIX86o-n2Iww6733-p2efEkAS7RRsd-rpMY0bcVWehaMBeinLXyE&list=PLMHAUg0ltt4Le7MwiuxAIfrf7gp_7JsEg</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Oh wow! That’s great!

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2020-05-29 11:40 p.m.

That’s the videos my notes came from. That poster is obviously a little less concerned with copyright infringement than I am...

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-11-21 6:39 p.m.

[quote="TheBoneRanger"]That’s the videos my notes came from. That poster is obviously a little less concerned with copyright infringement than I am...[/quote]

Finding those videos on youtube led me to buy the book, so maybe we let the lawyers fight over bigger chum.

There's a lot of debate over a pretty simple routine. The way I'd sum the exercises up is:

- Get comfortable in the low register and using both triggers, because that is an important skill for a bass trombone player to have

- Play those notes using the same embouchure you use for the rest of your range, because that's an important skill for a bass trombone player to have

- Connect those notes to your middle and upper registers using your ear, and train your ear to hear some uncommon intervals, so you place notes accurately, because that is a very important skill for a trombone player to have.

The videos address quite a few misconceptions that seem to be popping up. I've heard these exercises described as "play pedals as loud as you can, as long as you can." He DOES tell you to play loud... but he knows you can't. In the videos, Phil is very clearly playing in the "mp" to "mf" regime. He mentions that you CAN add some crescendos, but only after you've developed some strength. Incidentally, this advice precedes the Marsteller book (which on its surface appears to be a polar opposite to the Teele book).

In addition, lots of people say "this is something you do in front of the TV." I think that can be a dangerous thing. A big part of what informs the exercises is a focus on meditation and improvisation. Phil mentions in one of the videos that the scales from Day 3 are inspired by Indian Ragas. How are you supposed to focus on hearing these unfamiliar intervals when you're rewatching The Office for the eighth time? I can see the utility of some mindless tube during the prescribed 15-20 minute breaks, but not during the exercises. He tells you to play some light jazz on Day 4... how focused are you on phrasing something if you're listening to a podcast? The exercises command a great deal of focus and discipline, which are very important skills for trombone players to have.

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