What does mouthpiece cup size do?
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Hi!
This is partially inspired by the Doug Elliott mouthpiece thread going on right now.
What exactly does mouthpiece cup size do? Of course, it affects sound and general tone... But does the cup size affect response? Does it affect any other parts of playing? What are your guy's thoughts?
Thanks! Keep staying safe out there everyone!
This is partially inspired by the Doug Elliott mouthpiece thread going on right now.
What exactly does mouthpiece cup size do? Of course, it affects sound and general tone... But does the cup size affect response? Does it affect any other parts of playing? What are your guy's thoughts?
Thanks! Keep staying safe out there everyone!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Yes, I've found that shallow mouthpieces have a bigger target for your air steam to hit for the upper register.
Deep cups are easier to direct the air stream more towards the backbore, so it opens up the lower register.
The shape is important too. Some mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat. I like this type a lot. You get some of the benefits of both deep and shallow cups.
Deep cups are easier to direct the air stream more towards the backbore, so it opens up the lower register.
The shape is important too. Some mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat. I like this type a lot. You get some of the benefits of both deep and shallow cups.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
In the most general terms, a shallower cup (less volume) favors higher frequencies, and a deeper cup (more volume) favors lower frequencies.
That affects both ease of high or low range and sound quality bright or dark. And also how well it matches small or large bore horns.
The fine-tuning aspect of choosing a cup depth depends a lot on the player too. And your playing situation, like how you need to blend with other players or not.
That affects both ease of high or low range and sound quality bright or dark. And also how well it matches small or large bore horns.
The fine-tuning aspect of choosing a cup depth depends a lot on the player too. And your playing situation, like how you need to blend with other players or not.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Great answers guys! All makes sense.
Another question... Does cup depth also affect pitch?
Another question... Does cup depth also affect pitch?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="mrdeacon"]Great answers guys! All makes sense.
Another question... Does cup depth also affect pitch?[/quote]
I find that a cup that is too deep for the size of horn I am playing makes the upper register flat.
Another question... Does cup depth also affect pitch?[/quote]
I find that a cup that is too deep for the size of horn I am playing makes the upper register flat.
- marccromme
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="mrdeacon"]Another question... Does cup depth also affect pitch?[/quote]
Not so much general pitch, but spacing of partials. With equal bore, throat and instrumet, larger volume's in cup do lower higher partials more than lower partials, thus compressing partials. Smaller cup volume's stretches partials. Throat diameter is opposite, larger means stretching partials, smaller compressing. Roughly speaking.
Not so much general pitch, but spacing of partials. With equal bore, throat and instrumet, larger volume's in cup do lower higher partials more than lower partials, thus compressing partials. Smaller cup volume's stretches partials. Throat diameter is opposite, larger means stretching partials, smaller compressing. Roughly speaking.
- cigmar
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]The shape is important too. Some mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat. I like this type a lot. You get some of the benefits of both deep and shallow cups.[/quote]
Don't understand your comment of "Some Mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat". Could you please elaborate on that, especially the "S" back into the throat". Also, what particular pieces do you feel exhibit the characteristics you described, i.e. "the benefits of both deep and shallow cups".
Thanks.
Don't understand your comment of "Some Mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat". Could you please elaborate on that, especially the "S" back into the throat". Also, what particular pieces do you feel exhibit the characteristics you described, i.e. "the benefits of both deep and shallow cups".
Thanks.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="marccromme"]<QUOTE author="mrdeacon" post_id="110153" time="1586980945" user_id="3239">
Another question... Does cup depth also affect pitch?[/quote]
Not so much general pitch, but spacing of partials. With equal bore, throat and instrumet, larger volume's in cup do lower higher partials more than lower partials, thus compressing partials. Smaller cup volume's stretches partials. Throat diameter is opposite, larger means stretching partials, smaller compressing. Roughly speaking.
</QUOTE>
Ohhhh! I think I'm finally understanding the thread harrisonreed made a while back talking about compressing partials.
I recently just switched to a different mouthpiece and I can directly attest to what you're saying. Even though the new mouthpiece is larger in almost all specs the partials (I feel) are closer together and easier to find. That would explain why... interesting!
Another question... Does cup depth also affect pitch?[/quote]
Not so much general pitch, but spacing of partials. With equal bore, throat and instrumet, larger volume's in cup do lower higher partials more than lower partials, thus compressing partials. Smaller cup volume's stretches partials. Throat diameter is opposite, larger means stretching partials, smaller compressing. Roughly speaking.
</QUOTE>
Ohhhh! I think I'm finally understanding the thread harrisonreed made a while back talking about compressing partials.
I recently just switched to a different mouthpiece and I can directly attest to what you're saying. Even though the new mouthpiece is larger in almost all specs the partials (I feel) are closer together and easier to find. That would explain why... interesting!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="cigmar"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="109997" time="1586847370" user_id="3642">
The shape is important too. Some mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat. I like this type a lot. You get some of the benefits of both deep and shallow cups.[/quote]
Don't understand your comment of "Some Mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat". Could you please elaborate on that, especially the "S" back into the throat". Also, what particular pieces do you feel exhibit the characteristics you described, i.e. "the benefits of both deep and shallow cups".
Thanks.
</QUOTE>
Bousfield V3, to some extent the 13CL, and Parduba Double Cup mouthpieces.
My drawing isn't good. Need coffee.
Note that the solid line and the bottom dotted line have the throat in about the same spot.
<ATTACHMENT filename="DSC_0342.JPG" index="0">[attachment=0]DSC_0342.JPG</ATTACHMENT>
The shape is important too. Some mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat. I like this type a lot. You get some of the benefits of both deep and shallow cups.[/quote]
Don't understand your comment of "Some Mouthpieces start shallow, and then "S" back into the throat". Could you please elaborate on that, especially the "S" back into the throat". Also, what particular pieces do you feel exhibit the characteristics you described, i.e. "the benefits of both deep and shallow cups".
Thanks.
</QUOTE>
Bousfield V3, to some extent the 13CL, and Parduba Double Cup mouthpieces.
My drawing isn't good. Need coffee.
Note that the solid line and the bottom dotted line have the throat in about the same spot.
<ATTACHMENT filename="DSC_0342.JPG" index="0">
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Tuba players in particular are concerned with V shaped cups. Tbone players as well, but to a lesser extent. The tuba Helleberg mouthpiece and derivatives are V shaped.
According to the Yamaha site <LINK_TEXT text="https://hub.yamaha.com/guide-to-brass-m ... -and-rims/">https://hub.yamaha.com/guide-to-brass-mouthpieces-part-2-cups-and-rims/</LINK_TEXT>
The V shape makes the sound darker and low register easier to play, and rhe U shaped bowl makes it brighter and the high nores easier. Although my experience with the Ferguson V is that it brightens the sound compared to other pieces of the same size.
According to the Yamaha site <LINK_TEXT text="https://hub.yamaha.com/guide-to-brass-m ... -and-rims/">https://hub.yamaha.com/guide-to-brass-mouthpieces-part-2-cups-and-rims/</LINK_TEXT>
The V shape makes the sound darker and low register easier to play, and rhe U shaped bowl makes it brighter and the high nores easier. Although my experience with the Ferguson V is that it brightens the sound compared to other pieces of the same size.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
There will always be disagreements about what this or that does. Most of the "conventional wisdom" and the usual descriptions are wrong. Or they're sort of right for some players but not others.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]The V shape makes the sound darker and low register easier to play, and rhe U shaped bowl makes it brighter and the high nores easier. Although my experience with the Ferguson V is that it brightens the sound compared to other pieces of the same size.[/quote]
The V actually doesn't stand for V cup. Minick named the original design V because it's based off of a Mount Vernon 1.5 mouthpiece. Fun fact!
The V actually doesn't stand for V cup. Minick named the original design V because it's based off of a Mount Vernon 1.5 mouthpiece. Fun fact!
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="mrdeacon"]The V actually doesn't stand for V cup. Minick named the original design V because it's based off of a Mount Vernon 1.5 mouthpiece. Fun fact![/quote]
From the Horn Guys site
Ferguson V
A bass trombone mouthpiece in a New York 1.5G size, V shaped cup, for players wanting a smaller, most efficient bass trombone mouthpiece but with a wide comfortable rim, based on my Minick V, cup diameter 27.4 mm.
From the Horn Guys site
Ferguson V
A bass trombone mouthpiece in a New York 1.5G size, V shaped cup, for players wanting a smaller, most efficient bass trombone mouthpiece but with a wide comfortable rim, based on my Minick V, cup diameter 27.4 mm.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Well I'm full of it. Shows you can't trust strangers in the internet! :pant:
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Eh, what does V cup mean anyways. I've never seen a mouthpiece with a V shaped cup that wasn't a French horn mouthpiece.
People said the Lindberg pieces were V cups, too. They aren't.
People said the Lindberg pieces were V cups, too. They aren't.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Some old French and English mouthpieces from the late 19th and early 20th centuries have V-shaped cups. They were made for the peashooter trombones of the time.
BTW, isn’t it an oxymoron to call it a “V-shaped cup”? And isn’t it redundant to call it a “cup-shaped cup”? I’m guessing it is different in other languages, but... English...
BTW, isn’t it an oxymoron to call it a “V-shaped cup”? And isn’t it redundant to call it a “cup-shaped cup”? I’m guessing it is different in other languages, but... English...
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
On a more serious note, I’ve noticed something similar to what Harrison is talking about. Mouthpieces of the same maker, same rim and backbore, but different cups, have different intonation and response. It’s more noticeable in the upper register.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="mrdeacon"]Well I'm full of it. Shows you can't trust strangers in the internet! :pant:[/quote]
Nah, the Horn Guys site doesn't say where Minick got the V, it might all be coincidence about the V.
Nah, the Horn Guys site doesn't say where Minick got the V, it might all be coincidence about the V.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="mrdeacon" post_id="110211" time="1587043833" user_id="3239">
Well I'm full of it. Shows you can't trust strangers in the internet! :pant:[/quote]
Nah, the Horn Guys site doesn't say where Minick got the V, it might all be coincidence about the V.
</QUOTE>
The most often quoted explanation was the V being from Mt Vernon...and that from people who knew Larry Minick, who I prefer to believe. They also quoted L as being for large and LS as large, stupid... which I like. That said, the Minick Vs that I have owned had a slightly more funnel like cup than Bachs .
Chris
Well I'm full of it. Shows you can't trust strangers in the internet! :pant:[/quote]
Nah, the Horn Guys site doesn't say where Minick got the V, it might all be coincidence about the V.
</QUOTE>
The most often quoted explanation was the V being from Mt Vernon...and that from people who knew Larry Minick, who I prefer to believe. They also quoted L as being for large and LS as large, stupid... which I like. That said, the Minick Vs that I have owned had a slightly more funnel like cup than Bachs .
Chris
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]The most often quoted explanation was the V being from Mt Vernon...and that from people who knew Larry Minick, who I prefer to believe. They also quoted L as being for large and LS as large, stupid... which I like. That said, the Minick Vs that I have owned had a slightly more funnel like cup than Bachs .
Chris[/quote]
It's an interesting mouthpiece. I know you've said you didn't like it. I like it if I don't have to play a lot of double trigger stuff. It plays nicely high. Right now it's plugged into my euphonium, and it doesn't get the compensated notes very well, but everything else, including the pedals, sound great. And yes, it's kind of V or funnel shaped inside. They have images on the Horn Guys site of the Minick reproductions.
I also have the L. which has a much heavier blank, and is much better for the low stuff. I don't think I'd like anything larger.
My daily bass mouthpiece is a 1 1/4. I just got a DE LB111, and I like the sound of the 1 1/4g better. The DE is much darker sound, the Bach seems more supple, lighter, and more flexible in playing style.
I think Doug mentioned once that his mouthpieces were a combination of V and U cup shape. I like all his tenor pieces that I have, but I haven't warmed up to anything of his on bass.
Chris[/quote]
It's an interesting mouthpiece. I know you've said you didn't like it. I like it if I don't have to play a lot of double trigger stuff. It plays nicely high. Right now it's plugged into my euphonium, and it doesn't get the compensated notes very well, but everything else, including the pedals, sound great. And yes, it's kind of V or funnel shaped inside. They have images on the Horn Guys site of the Minick reproductions.
I also have the L. which has a much heavier blank, and is much better for the low stuff. I don't think I'd like anything larger.
My daily bass mouthpiece is a 1 1/4. I just got a DE LB111, and I like the sound of the 1 1/4g better. The DE is much darker sound, the Bach seems more supple, lighter, and more flexible in playing style.
I think Doug mentioned once that his mouthpieces were a combination of V and U cup shape. I like all his tenor pieces that I have, but I haven't warmed up to anything of his on bass.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
A 111 rim with what cup? It's not fair to make a comparison just on rim size - if it's too dark, probably try a shallower cup. You didn't get that one from me so i don't know what you have.
I visited Larry Minnick at his shop back in 1984 I think, on a trip to California for some festival. IAJE? I don't remember. He showed me his mouthpiece and asked me what I made that was similar. I put together something (?) and he said "great minds think alike" because it was virtually identical in rim, cup shape, and throat size. Unfortunately I don't remember the details now, I wish I did.
I have made straight V cups a couple of times as custom orders. It's interesting, they play pretty well and sound very french horn-like.
I visited Larry Minnick at his shop back in 1984 I think, on a trip to California for some festival. IAJE? I don't remember. He showed me his mouthpiece and asked me what I made that was similar. I put together something (?) and he said "great minds think alike" because it was virtually identical in rim, cup shape, and throat size. Unfortunately I don't remember the details now, I wish I did.
I have made straight V cups a couple of times as custom orders. It's interesting, they play pretty well and sound very french horn-like.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A 111 rim with what cup? It's not fair to make a comparison just on rim size - if it's too dark, probably try a shallower cup. You didn't get that one from me so i don't know what you have.
I visited Larry Minnick at his shop back in 1984 I think, on a trip to California for some festival. IAJE? I don't remember. He showed me his mouthpiece and asked me what I made that was similar. I put together something (?) and he said "great minds think alike" because it was virtually identical in rim, cup shape, and throat size. Unfortunately I don't remember the details now, I wish I did.
I have made straight V cups a couple of times as custom orders. It's interesting, they play pretty well and sound very french horn-like.[/quote]
This is the K cup with the dotK8 shank that I asked you about a couple of weeks ago.
I had tried the Euph 104 and 108 with a J cup a couple of years ago, and I couldn't settle on that either.
I'm not expecting you to fix this for me. I bought the piece used, and it's quite old. I love my 5 tenor DE mouthpieces, I'm just going to have to go a different direction for bass, a battle I've been fighting for several years now (not really an enthusiastic bass bone player). The 1 1/4g is as good as I need it to be.
The problem is I want the mouthpiece to help me play lower, but I don't want the associated dark sound that comes with bigger mouthpieces.
The Ferguson pieces seem to give me proportionately more power and a clearer sound.
"Sounds like a french horn" is not necessarily a compliment where I come from.
Putting the Ferguson V in my euphonium makes it play with more clarity (a little brighter). By the way, your XT104g8 plays great in my euphonium, but that's my 88h mouthpiece.
I visited Larry Minnick at his shop back in 1984 I think, on a trip to California for some festival. IAJE? I don't remember. He showed me his mouthpiece and asked me what I made that was similar. I put together something (?) and he said "great minds think alike" because it was virtually identical in rim, cup shape, and throat size. Unfortunately I don't remember the details now, I wish I did.
I have made straight V cups a couple of times as custom orders. It's interesting, they play pretty well and sound very french horn-like.[/quote]
This is the K cup with the dotK8 shank that I asked you about a couple of weeks ago.
I had tried the Euph 104 and 108 with a J cup a couple of years ago, and I couldn't settle on that either.
I'm not expecting you to fix this for me. I bought the piece used, and it's quite old. I love my 5 tenor DE mouthpieces, I'm just going to have to go a different direction for bass, a battle I've been fighting for several years now (not really an enthusiastic bass bone player). The 1 1/4g is as good as I need it to be.
The problem is I want the mouthpiece to help me play lower, but I don't want the associated dark sound that comes with bigger mouthpieces.
The Ferguson pieces seem to give me proportionately more power and a clearer sound.
"Sounds like a french horn" is not necessarily a compliment where I come from.
Putting the Ferguson V in my euphonium makes it play with more clarity (a little brighter). By the way, your XT104g8 plays great in my euphonium, but that's my 88h mouthpiece.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
"I want the mouthpiece to help me play lower, but I don't want the associated dark sound that comes with bigger mouthpieces."
Bigger rim, shallower cup.
Bigger rim, shallower cup.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]Some old French and English mouthpieces from the late 19th and early 20th centuries have V-shaped cups. They were made for the peashooter trombones of the time.[/quote]
Early Olds mouthpieces are pretty v-ish.
I've always preferred the terms "funnel-shaped" and "bowl-shaped" - though I have seen a few funnels (real funnels, not mouthpieces) that were rather bowl-shaped.
Early Olds mouthpieces are pretty v-ish.
BTW, isn’t it an oxymoron to call it a “V-shaped cup”? And isn’t it redundant to call it a “cup-shaped cup”? I’m guessing it is different in other languages, but... English...
I've always preferred the terms "funnel-shaped" and "bowl-shaped" - though I have seen a few funnels (real funnels, not mouthpieces) that were rather bowl-shaped.