Modernize Vintage Horns

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2020-04-25 3:28 p.m.

I would like to get the opinion of anyone who has purchased a vintage tenor trombone w/ F attachment or a bass trombone and modernized it (maybe there is a better term. By modernize I mean changes like converting string linkage to mechanical linkage, changing 2nd valve slide turning to D instead of Eb, converting to interchangeable leadpipes, etc. Did you get the result you wanted? Was it worth it? I like the the sound I have obtained on some vintage horns but could not get over the clunky slides and sounds produced by the valves when engaged. Also if there are changes I have not mentioned please let me know as I would be curious to see what over people are doing to classic horns.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-04-25 3:49 p.m.

There are a couple of very common mods done to bass trombones:

1. Conversion of 2nd valve from flat E to Eb or D. This requires a new tuning slide or an extension. Rarely if ever affects the sound of the instrument and often improves playability.

2. Conversion of 2nd valve actuation to middle finger as opposed to the over/under or side-by-side on the original horn. Not as reversible as item 1 above, but greatly enhances ergonomics for most people.

3. Replacing valves. This is most commonly needed on Bach rotor instruments. Other brands have much more open rotary valves. The replacements can vary from more open rotors (Meinschmitt, Olsen) to Hagmanns to full Axial (Thayer) valves. These are expensive conversions. Sometimes the result is not as good as what you had before. Reversion is nearly impossible. Full Axials have very low resistance -- too low for some players. The others have less resistance than the Bach rotor but may be enough for most players.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-25 3:51 p.m.

If you want to play a vintage horn every day, this is sometimes the only route.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-04-25 4:12 p.m.

I have an 88h that I changed to screw in leadpipes, but that was because the cork barrels were extremely pitted and needed replacing.

I have a bass where I changed the E valve to Eb, but the tech made it a little too long. So Eb is unusable in 1st position. The new levers had standoffs so long they rub on my shirt collar. I fixed it myself.

Some work is good and some isn't. Some ideas are better than others. Eb - D is reversible, and a matter of personal taste. String to mechanical is a downgrade not sure why people think the opposite. Some changes are mainly for fashion, avoid that if you can.

Making changes is expensive. You might be better off looking for a horn you like.

I personally don't think there is any such thing as "updating" a vintage horn. If it's a good horn, don't change it. If you prefer a new horn, get one. Don't try to make it into something it isn't.

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2020-04-25 5:05 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]

I personally don't think there is any such thing as "updating" a vintage horn. If it's a good horn, don't change it. If you prefer a new horn, get one. Don't try to make it into something it isn't.[/quote]

This is what I am afraid of.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-25 5:51 p.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]By modernize I mean changes like converting string linkage to mechanical linkage, ... etc.

I ... could not get over the ... sounds produced by the valves when engaged.[/quote]

I have trombones with string linkage valves, and trombones with mechanical linkage valves.

I have no trouble with a properly adjusted string linkage (which typically require no readjustment for a very long time). These are actually my quietest, smoothest valves, and the "throw" is short. I love them and will never change their linkages. (And I save a tint amount of time and money on linkage lubrication!)

Am I missing something? :idk:

mrdeacon · 2020-04-25 6:04 p.m.

There are really two sides to this coin. Yes, hack up a horn to your heart's content and no!!! it belongs in a museum! I think there is a solid middle ground between the two stances.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I personally don't think there is any such thing as "updating" a vintage horn. If it's a good horn, don't change it. If you prefer a new horn, get one. Don't try to make it into something it isn't.[/quote]

Please don't go around doing anything silly like putting Thayers on an Elkhart Conn 62h, don't pull the lead pipe on a Mount Vernon, don't mutilate a Conn 88h to have anything but the stock rotor. Not every horn needs to be open wrapped. Like hyperbolic said "Don't try to make it something it isn't."

But I think burgerbob really nails it on the head with his post.

[quote="Burgerbob"]If you want to play a vintage horn every day, this is sometimes the only route.[/quote]

For example you would be crazy to play a Duo Gravis or Holton TR180 daily with the stock triggers. I'm sure there are people who do but I'm sure not one of them. Modifying a vintage horn can turn it into something that can be used as a daily driver.

I own a custom Minick bass trombone. Amazing horn. When I received the slide it wasn't in the best shape and while the valves were smooth the F rotor leaked. I've since heavily modified it with new Olsen rotors and a brand new hand slide made by my tech. Should I have kept the horn stock? Probably. It played great. But between the leaky valves and the 7.5/10 slide it wasn't something I could feasibly use as a daily driver. So I modified it and couldn't be happier with it. It plays like a new horn though still needs a little more work done to it.

The moral of the story is to use your best judgment. Don't hack up something for no reason but if you have a horn that can be brought back to life or modified so as to make daily playing easier... do it! Just make sure you take the horn to a good tech who knows what they're doing.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-04-25 6:28 p.m.

It really depends. Some parts of a trombone will wear out over time if not properly maintained. Even with proper maintenance, some valves are/were just not as good as others, and when they start to leak, your option is either to get them refit, or replaced outright.

The process of refitting a valve is somewhat labor intensive, and if you're going to put that much $$$ into a horn, it may be better just replace the valve with a more modern design.

Also things like changing the key of valve attachments on bass trombones has been going on pretty much since they started making 2 valve basses. Splitting and reworking the linkage for valves is also something that has been adjusted for quite some time. Unless it's a historic time capsule horn, if it was in use for decades, chances are that it's going to have had a lot changed already.

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2020-04-25 6:33 p.m.

I have a Mount Vernon 36B and I`m going to have the valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations Valve and have the trigger moved to a "modern" location, so when I use the F trigger I don`t hit my cheek.

I also have a Mount Vernon Straight 36 and I had the leadpipe pulled and an Edwards #2 put in. Plays great now.

Should I mess with a Vintage horn, well, they are mine and the improvements will make my horns play better.

Just my opinion

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-04-25 6:40 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]

...Please don't go around doing anything silly like putting Thayers on an Elkhart Conn 62h, don't pull the lead pipe on a Mount Vernon, don't mutilate a Conn 88h to have anything but the stock rotor. Not every horn needs to be open wrapped. Like hyperbolic said "Don't try to make it something it isn't."[/quote]

Yeah, I think we pretty much agree. I might not have said just what I meant in that previous post. Anyone who knows my horns and thought I said "don't change classic horns" would call me a hypocrite. My Elkhart 88h has new cork barrels. My 79h has a 78h bell, My 1662i has a replaced bell. My s-20 has a new valve set on it. I put a wide crook on a 10h. I have an 8h frankenbone. I'm contemplating making a 508 Conn of some sort. These are all mods to vintage horns (except the Kanstul). So I've done my share. I'm not a historian purist by any means.

My argument against modifications usually comes from a cost efficiency point of view. There's no better way to totally vaporize several hundred dollars than to get caught up in some sort of transformation of an old horn.

For example, I kind of revere Elkhart 62h, but I'd like bigger valves, and a better 2nd valve lever, and the TIS is heavy, and I don't like the Remington taper business, and this and that. So instead of hacking up a perfectly good vintage 62h, I bought a Kanstul update of the 62, which is the 1662i. It has all those things out of the box. If I had bought the Kanstul used, it would have cost much less than the 62h + mods.

I wanted a small bass, and no one really makes something like I wanted, so I started with something that no one really holds in much regard - an Olds S-20 9" bell single valve dual bore TIS bass. Then I added a discarded set of Duo Gravis valves. So at least I didn't hack up anything valuable (someone else did, but not me). The result is worth about $300 less than I have into it, but that's the kind of risk you take with mods.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2020-04-25 7:10 p.m.

[quote="dukesboneman"]I have a Mount Vernon 36B and I`m going to have the valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations Valve and have the trigger moved to a "modern" location, so when I use the F trigger I don`t hit my cheek.

I also have a Mount Vernon Straight 36 and I had the leadpipe pulled and an Edwards #2 put in. Plays great now.

Should I mess with a Vintage horn, well, they are mine and the improvements will make my horns play better.

Just my opinion[/quote]

I’m thinking about doing the exact same with an old 36B. Horn sounds wonderful, but the rotor is so leaky that I have to use thick rotor oil a couple times a day to seal it.

Im wondering if the entire Bach valve wrap be saved if I opted for a newer valve like the Olsen? Or if you have to replace with an entirely different valve section?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-25 7:22 p.m.

[quote="RJMason"]<QUOTE author="dukesboneman" post_id="111110" time="1587854006" user_id="2940">
I have a Mount Vernon 36B and I`m going to have the valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations Valve and have the trigger moved to a "modern" location, so when I use the F trigger I don`t hit my cheek.

I also have a Mount Vernon Straight 36 and I had the leadpipe pulled and an Edwards #2 put in. Plays great now.

Should I mess with a Vintage horn, well, they are mine and the improvements will make my horns play better.

Just my opinion[/quote]

I’m thinking about doing the exact same with an old 36B. Horn sounds wonderful, but the rotor is so leaky that I have to use thick rotor oil a couple times a day to seal it.

Im wondering if the entire Bach valve wrap be saved if I opted for a newer valve like the Olsen? Or if you have to replace with an entirely different valve section?
</QUOTE>

Instrument Innovations have a drop-in replacement rotor, same size as the original. It's not the ball bearing valve.

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2020-04-26 12:10 a.m.

An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.

2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.

3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.

4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.

5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.

6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.

7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-04-26 12:20 a.m.

MT that is all reasonable work. That's a proper restoration for a vintage horn!

Just make sure you take the horn to a good tech as pulling the leadpipe can be tricky sometimes and you of course want the new triggers to be comfortable.

I recommend checking out the BrassArk BH62 leadpipe and MK Drawing George Roberts pipe for aftermarket leadpipes! A Shires B2.5 isn't bad either in the old rotor TIS horns...

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-04-26 12:48 a.m.

Personally I wouldn't bother with #4.

Replacing the leadpipe so you can use modern shank bass trombone mouthpieces is a good idea on older Conn large bores.

Rusty · by **Rusty** » 2020-04-26 1:02 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]I recommend checking out the BrassArk BH62 leadpipe and MK Drawing George Roberts pipe for aftermarket leadpipes! A Shires B2.5 isn't bad either in the old rotor TIS horns...[/quote]

My Minick customised 1970 62h came with a Shires B3 pipe, but only really came alive with tighter pipes...the Shires B1 really makes it speak! Waiting on the Brassark BH62 in drawn yellow brass though which will hopefully be even better!

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-04-26 2:37 a.m.

I have a 71H that was pieced together into a dorta 73H. I had Olsen valves setup to be dependent, the leadpipe pulled and now use a Bach 50 pipe, the slide had the crook changed to something other than stock, and the horn is completely modular.

I've pulled pipes on my 6Hs.

I have an 8HLT thats fully modular.

I also have some 50s Conns ill never cut unless absolutely necessary.

Pulling leadpipes is probably the most common and biggest cral shoot of modifying vintage horns since the little bastards don't like coming out.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2020-04-26 4:01 a.m.

Why the hate for string linkage? :idk:

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-26 8:01 a.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.

2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.

3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.

4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.

5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.

6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.

7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.[/quote]

All good stuff except possibly #1. If you love the Conn sound changing lead pipes might be a waste of time. However I know several who have pulled the pipe with good results.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-04-26 8:23 a.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.

2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.

3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.

4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.

5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.

6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.

7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.[/quote]
1. No, I would not do that if it is not broken.

2. Yes

3. Yes

4 No. Strings is better.

5. Yes, you do what you have to do to make them work. I would replace with original parts if possible.

6. Yes

7. Yes, but dents does not bother me much. As long as the horn plays good. I'm tempted to make a good vintage horn look shiny but the chance is it plays different after. If it is good I would not take the risk and if it plays bad I would not spend that much money. This means NO new lacquer on my horns. A friend did it with a vintage Conn 4h and I tried before and after. It was different. That horn became a better horn afterwards. It can be either good or bad.

/Tom

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2020-04-26 9:28 a.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]Why the hate for string linkage? :idk:[/quote]

I just don't want to deal with string linkage failing. I know mechanical linkage can fail too, but I haven't thad that happen yet. Basically personal preference.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-04-26 10:04 a.m.

I know custom work on bones is very popular. What ever the flavor of the week gets very popular. In the last 10 years of doing repair work before I retired I did a lot of custom work. As a businessman you want to make your customers happy but some requests just seemed unnecessary. So when I started playing bass trombone a couple of years ago I could have gone crazy. I have the tools and the skills. So I bought a 1963 72H and figured I would "work" on it. But as I started playing it I realized the OEM leadpipe was fine and the string linkage was fine. All I did was rebuild the rotor with 5 coats of copper and a finishing coat of nickel (with 3 grits of lapping coumpund and lots of hand lapping). Now it doesn't leak and is quiet. After finding a mouthpiece I like I've got a great horn for the type of playing I do.

So, don't hurry to modify a vintage horn because someone has come up with something new that's trending. That can get as crazy as the mouthpiece merry-go-round. Get to know the horn and repair if need be.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-04-26 11:04 a.m.

I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.

That said, I like to do mods that are not terribly permanent. That is, I try not to cut too much in the way of tubing unless necessary. I also don’t generally do them without an underlying maintenance reason, or not a one off horn. For example, my Bach NY45 fits modern valves with some minor brace work of Shires valve sections. But the original rotor was toast. Looking back, could I have simply replaced the valve or even just the valve core? Maybe, but I made it fit valves that I had for a modern horn anyway, so I wasn’t out spending money on something that I would hope holds value. It now is my horn of choice and can come out as a single or a double as needed. Unlike its brother the vintage 50 which is stuck as a single until I can figure out a good drop in valve. I would make it interchangeable, but it looks too good and plays too good as is.

As for some other comments on this thread... I made a nice set of dependent Thayers that I put on a 60H that was missing a valve section. Shame I didn’t leave that horn in the trash condition that I found it. The final result wasn’t my cup of tea, but the available valves and horn made a decent fit together and brought a horn that would have been cast aside back into the playing rotation. And I did it without cutting anything so somebody can pop their next favorite valves onto it later.

Now, should I fit these Thayers I don’t play much to the Fuchs? No. Of course not, but deciding the best way to repair the Fuchs is why it is sitting, unplayed in the basement going on a couple of years now. Wouldn’t it be better for us all if it was out being used?

Cheers,

Andy

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-26 11:26 a.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.

That said, I like to do mods that are not terribly permanent. That is, I try not to cut too much in the way of tubing unless necessary. I also don’t generally do them without an underlying maintenance reason, or not a one off horn. For example, my Bach NY45 fits modern valves with some minor brace work of Shires valve sections. But the original rotor was toast. Looking back, could I have simply replaced the valve or even just the valve core? Maybe, but I made it fit valves that I had for a modern horn anyway, so I wasn’t out spending money on something that I would hope holds value. It now is my horn of choice and can come out as a single or a double as needed. Unlike its brother the vintage 50 which is stuck as a single until I can figure out a good drop in valve. I would make it interchangeable, but it looks too good and plays too good as is.

As for some other comments on this thread... I made a nice set of dependent Thayers that I put on a 60H that was missing a valve section. Shame I didn’t leave that horn in the trash condition that I found it. The final result wasn’t my cup of tea, but the available valves and horn made a decent fit together and brought a horn that would have been cast aside back into the playing rotation. And I did it without cutting anything so somebody can pop their next favorite valves onto it later.

Now, should I fit these Thayers I don’t play much to the Fuchs? No. Of course not, but deciding the best way to repair the Fuchs is why it is sitting, unplayed in the basement going on a couple of years now. Wouldn’t it be better for us all if it was out being used?

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

If you'd kindly send me the Fuchs I'll figure the whole thing out. Thank you. :hi:

CheeseTray · by **CheeseTray** » 2020-04-26 11:50 a.m.

I'm ready to get beat up for this: :biggrin:

Horns are tools; we should treat them as such. We admire 'classic' horns because of our intense interest in our own little corner of the universe, but no one outside of our world values them in the way all-original collector cars, works of art, or any investment-grade collectibles are valued. No one other than another trombonist will pay top dollar for a cherry NY Bach or a minty Elkhart Conn. Even then, top-dollar value is far less than a well-worn Honda Civic.

These horns aren't investments or museum pieces. With all the improvements in modern horn building, there even seems to be somewhat less interest among professionals in finding and playing old horns. Professionals find the best of current technology and stick with it until it does't work for them anymore, or something better presents itself. Old horns are the hobbyists' passion (and an endlessly entertaining one).

Long story short: If you have the cash: tinker, adapt, overhaul, modify, and most of all- enjoy yourself!

1. Altering horns to make them work/play better is fine (and fun). If it doesn't work out; sell it to someone else - no great tragedy, there's another one out there.

2. Using them is better than hoarding, preserving and coveting them. When you're gone, your kids wont' take that NY 42 out of the closet and say, "Wow, dad had the awesome foresight to preserve this rare, mint trombone! Let's call Sotheby's, we're gonna be set for life!" Rather, it will be more like what I expect my kids to say, "How many of these d**n things did he have ?!?" :lol:

Just my two cents, offered in a good-natured attempt at an alternate perspective. Fire away! :good:

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-04-26 1:45 p.m.

If you own a highly desirable, minty, vintage instrument, you probably paid extra for that mintyness. If you start modifying it, that torch isn't just burning lacquer, it's burning money. Sell it on to a collector, then take that money and buy another that's been played but not abused. Use the money you have left over to help fund your tinkering.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-04-26 1:54 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]If you own a highly desirable, minty, vintage instrument, you probably paid extra for that mintyness. If you start modifying it, that torch isn't just burning lacquer, it's burning money. Sell it on to a collector, then take that money and buy another that's been played but not abused. Use the money you have left over to help fund your tinkering.[/quote]

Agreed.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-04-26 2:22 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]If you own a highly desirable, minty, vintage instrument, you probably paid extra for that mintyness. If you start modifying it, that torch isn't just burning lacquer, it's burning money. Sell it on to a collector, then take that money and buy another that's been played but not abused. Use the money you have left over to help fund your tinkering.[/quote] This I also agree with. Collectible horns are a whole different can of worms. There are plenty of well used vintage instruments to experiment on. If you find a minty Elkhart Conn 88H that plays good, don't mess with it.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it on an a vintage horn.

The key of the Second attachment though... that can be fixed without really "modifying" the horn, if you can get a custom bent Valve loop.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2020-04-26 2:42 p.m.

I see three scenarios

1) it's not rare: go for it and don't look back, improve at will. My main horn for years was an early 90s 42. Not a vintage that is in any particularly high demand but it was a very prime specimen that impressed everyone who tried it, so instead of upgrading to a different horn I just improved the one I had. It made it even better.

2) it's rare/very desirable vintage but no longer in playing condition: go on and make the changes you want to the parts that aren't good anymore. There's something poetic and nice in bringing a good antique horn back to life in a new form, combining elements of the past with new technology.

3) it's rare/very desirable and in playing condition, then I would say don't do anything that isn't absolutely needed, try repairing or restoring rather than mods/customisations, and if making substantial changes, try to make them reversible as much as possible.

[quote="elmsandr"]I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.[/quote]

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-04-26 3:39 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="111168" time="1587913455" user_id="147">
I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.[/quote]

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?
</QUOTE> There are some that are still set up for the gut strings. However, neck resets are also a part of any old stringed instruments life. Even acoustic classical guitars eventually will have the neck joint start to give way under the stress of the strings. The glue they are put together with is hide glue, which can degrade over time.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-04-26 5:15 p.m.

[quote="CheeseTray"]I'm ready to get beat up for this: :biggrin:

Horns are tools; we should treat them as such. We admire 'classic' horns because of our intense interest in our own little corner of the universe, but no one outside of our world values them in the way all-original collector cars, works of art, or any investment-grade collectibles are valued. No one other than another trombonist will pay top dollar for a cherry NY Bach or a minty Elkhart Conn. Even then, top-dollar value is far less than a well-worn Honda Civic.

These horns aren't investments or museum pieces. With all the improvements in modern horn building, there even seems to be somewhat less interest among professionals in finding and playing old horns. Professionals find the best of current technology and stick with it until it does't work for them anymore, or something better presents itself. Old horns are the hobbyists' passion (and an endlessly entertaining one).

Long story short: If you have the cash: tinker, adapt, overhaul, modify, and most of all- enjoy yourself!

1. Altering horns to make them work/play better is fine (and fun). If it doesn't work out; sell it to someone else - no great tragedy, there's another one out there.

2. Using them is better than hoarding, preserving and coveting them. When you're gone, your kids wont' take that NY 42 out of the closet and say, "Wow, dad had the awesome foresight to preserve this rare, mint trombone! Let's call Sotheby's, we're gonna be set for life!" Rather, it will be more like what I expect my kids to say, "How many of these d**n things did he have ?!?" :lol:

Just my two cents, offered in a good-natured attempt at an alternate perspective. Fire away! :good:[/quote]

You can not set rules for anyone who buy something and modernize it for fun. You do what you have to do.

I'm a collector and I have found my collection so I don't need more rare collectable horns.

Most people do not appreciate a good Vintage Conn 88h or a single valved Conn 70h. First you need to know about trombones and there we just lost 99.9% of the population. Among the rest there are but a few who need more trombones than one, and then even fewer who really need something better than a pBone. Very few can appreciate an old vintage horn in original or make a difference on a horn like that.

I have played a lot of destroyed old horns. The horns I'm thinking of were 20 old vintage single valved Conn basstrombones that had been converted to double thayer triggers, all 20 were completely destroyed in the process. I would not even want them for half the price.

/Tom

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-26 6:28 p.m.

Far too many fine old trombones get hacked about to try and make a mediocre players life easier. The results are usually depressing. Sorry, but it's true. If an instrument is fifty or more years old, plays very well in it's own terms and is original DON'T MESS WITH IT. Either learn to play it or sell it on to someone who will. There are lots of good modern instruments out there that play wonderfully.... get one.

If you, on the other hand, you find an old trombone that requires work to be playable and may have already been messed with, then go for it. I have both highly original and highly modified old instruments as a result of the above philosophy. Talking old Conns, the leadpipes were very much part of the horn and best not changed, in my opinion. You learn how to work with them. Don't put freer blowing valves on and expect it to still play like a Conn... been there, done that. It won't.

Often the best thing is a rebuild by a good tech...as standard as possible... it will look the same but work as it should.

Chris

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2020-04-26 7:00 p.m.

Yeah I am getting the impression this sort of major surgery is not likely something I want to dive into. I have found a few modern instruments that have promise (Yamaha YBL-830 and YBL-620G), but not ready to make any sort of major decisions right now. I am thinking I am better off heading that direction.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-04-26 7:17 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="111168" time="1587913455" user_id="147">
I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.[/quote]

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?
</QUOTE>
Taking an interesting (to me only, probably) tangent here... I believe there is one Stradivarius violin that is unaltered, the so called “Messiah” that is hanging out at the Ashmolean (sp?) museum. I believe the consensus is that it kinda stinks and needs to be played more and updated to be interesting. Paraphrasing from a book that I cannot find right now and hope that I am not conflating two different violins.

Back on topic, Chris sums it up pretty simply. There are lots of folks that play some of those old horns in very fine ensembles. Failing that, getting the right tech to do the work on an old horn is a good plan. Especially if you are hoping to retain any value. What would be worth more, a mint 62H or a well worn Minick 62H?

In the mean time, I’m still trying to figure out who I need to fix this Fuchs... I had a plan, but the more I looked at it I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to dig in to something beyond my skill.

Cheers,

Andy

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-26 7:35 p.m.

They're just trombones.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-04-26 8:01 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="111186" time="1587926558" user_id="3038">

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?[/quote]

In the mean time, I’m still trying to figure out who I need to fix this Fuchs... I had a plan, but the more I looked at it I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to dig in to something beyond my skill.

Cheers,

Andy
</QUOTE>
Benn did an extraordinary job with mine.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-04-26 8:26 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]What would be worth more, a mint 62H or a well worn Minick 62H?[/quote]
That might well be a push. Assuming the Minick is "used but not abused" and doesn't need major work to be playable, and the 62H isn't a lemon, their "rare-o-meter" score is pretty similar. The Minick would be more valued as a player, the stock 62H to a collector.

Me, I'd rather have the Minick. I could PLAY it without worrying too much about decreasing its value. If you drop serious coin on a mint collectible instrument, that mint-ness is diminishes as time passes; faster if you player, slower if you don't, but it's still diminishing in either case.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-27 2:44 a.m.

To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris

EdwardSolomon · by **EdwardSolomon** » 2020-04-27 6:18 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris[/quote]

Indeed, those old Elkhart Conns have never waned in their popularity. If anything, they become more sought after with each passing year - and for good reason.

The old German Konzertposaune is very much a thing of the past, though. Very few people still play them professionally. The only one I can think of is Prof. Christhard Gössling of the Berlin Phil.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-27 6:43 a.m.

Just to confuse things, my two favourite Conn basses are both built up from bits and have non standard leadpipes . Nothing is simple.

I don't use my fabulous Fuchs which is original apart from the valve linkage, because I can't get on with the very close bell. I will not mess with it. That would be criminal.

Chris

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2020-04-27 9:07 a.m.

Jay Friedman and Charlie Vernon of the Chicago Symphony both play vintage Bach bells and (I think) tuning slides on completely custom built instruments - non-original slides, modern valves (Thayer, Greenhoe, etc. - they've both experimented quite a bit). They have found those instruments to be the best tools for their jobs. Could they do their jobs on the original instruments? In Jay's case, probably, for the most part. Charlie, on the other hand, couldn't do what he does every day on bass trombone with one valve.

I have a mid-60s Bach 50 that I've had modified by swapping out the valve for a Rotax with Shires open-wrap tubing. It had a special character with the original valve; now it has a different special character - still warm and rich but with more clarity - and plays much better, much easier. I can take it into any orchestra I play with unless I really need two valves. Every once in a while I think about adding a 2nd Rotax valve to it and maybe reversing the tuning slide. But I have a Shires for that - and most of the players I play with also play Shires.

I also have a 1940 Conn 70H that had some small modifications done and then reversed by a previous owner. It's about 98% stock. Even with major modification it wouldn't fit in most of my playing situations; where it fits though, it's perfect. Leaving it alone and playing it for what it is.

Oh, and the string linkage makes it the quietest, quickest, shortest-throw valve I have. There's a reason many horn players prefer strings.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2020-04-27 4:37 p.m.

[quote="GabeLangfur"]I also have a 1940 Conn 70H that had some small modifications done and then reversed by a previous owner. It's about 98% stock. Even with major modification it wouldn't fit in most of my playing situations; where it fits though, it's perfect. Leaving it alone and playing it for what it is.

Oh, and the string linkage makes it the quietest, quickest, shortest-throw valve I have. There's a reason many horn players prefer strings.[/quote]

The great thing about being an amateur is that I can turn up with an obscure horn and not put my livelihood at risk. I once went to a trombone event at the Royal Academy and some kid took a look at my Fuchs, held together with tape, and tried to get me to move to another stand. I didn't give him the "I've been playing longer than you've been alive" pitch. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

The Conn triggers would be OK if they came down from the top, but they really do get in the way.

S

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-27 4:52 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris[/quote]

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-27 5:45 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="111226" time="1587969883" user_id="7109">
To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris[/quote]

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.
</QUOTE>

Well, from this side of the pond , some American antics seem a little amusing...

Chris

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-04-27 6:13 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="111226" time="1587969883" user_id="7109">
To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris[/quote]

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.
</QUOTE>
Why?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-27 6:22 p.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="111295" time="1588020762" user_id="3131">

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.[/quote]
Why?
</QUOTE>

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-04-27 6:40 p.m.

All instruments were modern at some point.

I had an Elkhart 88H that I played for years, and loved. It was bone-stock, leadpipe had been mashed up enough to take morse mouthpieces, and had the original valve. It was a GREAT tenor trombone. Super fun to play in an orchestra, on first.

It always bugged me, though, how stuffy the trigger register felt. The C and B in the staff were so noticeably different when played using the valve that I got in the habit of just using 6th and 7th position whenever possible. The horn just wanted a much smaller mouthpiece than was comfortable for me in order to center below the staff.

I thought about having the valve replaced, but I also wasn't TOTALLY in love with the sound. It was a very "light" Elkhart Conn, and I tried several friend's horns that produced more core, more easily. Different characters.

Ultimately I moved elsewhere. I got a Corp 42 that had been hot-rodded with an Olsen valve, M neckpipe, and a 90's 42 slide that was WAY open. Finally wound up with my Schilke/Greenhoe tenor. Do I miss the Conn? Yes. Do I miss not being able to comfortably play a low D? NO.

Maybe there's a way to bend physiology and adapt to an instrument that doesn't quite suit you. Lots of players with thick necks made narrow slides work their entire careers. Players with thick lips can push out ballads on 12Cs. For me, at least, it's been an important consideration that I focus less on the physical act of making a beautiful sound, and more on shaping that sound to be musical. For some people, a 62H and a 2G is the easiest path to the sound they want. For others, they may need to spend an impractical amount of effort just to make that work. Dogmas are really only suitable for dogs.

Horns are meant to be played. Everyone is different. Despite the myriad options for horns we have now, circumstances dictate that some people modify old horns to suit their needs. We would do well to remember that a trombone is just plumbing until someone picks it up and starts making music. Elevating the importance of the horn (vintage or new) is really myopic. If you want to start a brass instrument museum, that's your problem. I want to make beautiful sounds.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-27 6:46 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Well, from this side of the pond, some American antics seem a little amusing...

Chris[/quote]

Or sometimes even more than "a little" ? :lol:

GBP · by **GBP** » 2020-04-27 6:50 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Far too many fine old trombones get hacked about to try and make a mediocre players life easier. The results are usually depressing. Sorry, but it's true. If an instrument is fifty or more years old, plays very well in it's own terms and is original DON'T MESS WITH IT. Either learn to play it or sell it on to someone who will. There are lots of good modern instruments out there that play wonderfully.... get one.

If you, on the other hand, you find an old trombone that requires work to be playable and may have already been messed with, then go for it. I have both highly original and highly modified old instruments as a result of the above philosophy. Talking old Conns, the leadpipes were very much part of the horn and best not changed, in my opinion. You learn how to work with them. Don't put freer blowing valves on and expect it to still play like a Conn... been there, done that. It won't.

Often the best thing is a rebuild by a good tech...as standard as possible... it will look the same but work as it should.

Chris[/quote]

I tend to agree. Modern instruments are designed to play better and easier than previous designs. The trade off to my ears is the players ability to easily color the sound of the instrument. You can spend a lot of money modifying an instrument and end up with mediocre sounding horn.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-04-28 1:54 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111302" time="1588025618" user_id="3637">

Why?[/quote]

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.
</QUOTE>
Maybe Just a result of wanting the best sound possible..

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-28 1:55 a.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="111303" time="1588026147" user_id="3131">

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.[/quote]
Maybe Just a result of wanting the best sound possible..
</QUOTE>

Oh please.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-04-28 2:04 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111329" time="1588053240" user_id="3637">

Maybe Just a result of wanting the best sound possible..[/quote]

Oh please.
</QUOTE>

Yes, Elkhart 88H, 60H,62H,Fuchs, Holton 169,E185, tr185.. Best sound possible..For a lot of players.. Edwards and Shires are fully available over here also.. A lot of violin makers have tried to make a violin that plays better than a Stradivarius.. Maybe some have done it also.. But none of them are as succesful as the ones doing good attempts to copy a Stradivarius.. Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-04-28 3:24 a.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]

Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?[/quote]

Eh. In fact, there are string instruments available (which, by the way, are NOT cheap) from makers that do many things better than Stradivarius instruments. Some even sound like... a louder Stradivarius. I'd guess that soloists using a Stradivarius or a Guarneri or Amati are doing it for the not-insignificant numbers of audience members who listen with their eyes. Many of them don't even own the instrument, and instead have patrons who bequeath them.

International violin soloists are rock stars. They HAVE to sell out concert halls every time they make an appearance. The mystique/sticker shock attached to these antique instruments is part of that. There are few people who could identify a $1M violin against a $50K one blindly, and the number that could are not filling concert halls. It is a brand thing.

The ideas that "you have to have X horn" or "that's a nice vintage horn, it must mean you are a great artist" are sometimes harmless, sometimes not. If you really believe that you are just a steward for the next generation, sworn to maintain an instrument just as it left the factory so that someone else can enjoy it once you are dead, then by all means ignore the worsening pain in your wrist as the terrible ergonomics of the over/under triggers demolish your tendons. Try to form your embouchure just right so that you can play out of the side of your mouth and avoid having the slide widened. Privately celebrate the victory of making a sound at all, while your section mates resent you for playing late because your horn just doesn't want to respond well to you.

The "right" sound is one that is in tune, starts and ends on time, and is comprised of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive. Equipment CAN hold you back in each of these regards, especially some older equipment. Luckily for those who mesh well with the older gear, the deficiencies common to those horns are easily correctable. There is no reason to put up with hardware shortcomings just because that's how somebody thought it should be, five decades ago or more.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-28 3:51 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111331" time="1588053890" user_id="3637">

Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?[/quote]

Eh. In fact, there are string instruments available (which, by the way, are NOT cheap) from makers that do many things better than Stradivarius instruments. Some even sound like... a louder Stradivarius. I'd guess that soloists using a Stradivarius or a Guarneri or Amati are doing it for the not-insignificant numbers of audience members who listen with their eyes. Many of them don't even own the instrument, and instead have patrons who bequeath them.

International violin soloists are rock stars. They HAVE to sell out concert halls every time they make an appearance. The mystique/sticker shock attached to these antique instruments is part of that. There are few people who could identify a $1M violin against a $50K one blindly, and the number that could are not filling concert halls. It is a brand thing.

The ideas that "you have to have X horn" or "that's a nice vintage horn, it must mean you are a great artist" are sometimes harmless, sometimes not. If you really believe that you are just a steward for the next generation, sworn to maintain an instrument just as it left the factory so that someone else can enjoy it once you are dead, then by all means ignore the worsening pain in your wrist as the terrible ergonomics of the over/under triggers demolish your tendons. Try to form your embouchure just right so that you can play out of the side of your mouth and avoid having the slide widened. Privately celebrate the victory of making a sound at all, while your section mates resent you for playing late because your horn just doesn't want to respond well to you.

The "right" sound is one that is in tune, starts and ends on time, and is comprised of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive. Equipment CAN hold you back in each of these regards, especially some older equipment. Luckily for those who mesh well with the older gear, the deficiencies common to those horns are easily correctable. There is no reason to put up with hardware shortcomings just because that's how somebody thought it should be, five decades ago or more.
</QUOTE>

Now that's just a rant. Get over yourself. So much stuff in there that is simply nonsense. You don't know if old master violins really make a difference any more than I do but I have at least talked to soloists about their instruments and they believe that the instrument makes a difference. You don't know that narrow slides and old style valve levers are holding young players back, but I teach in our national conservatoire and know what is working for young players and what is not. One modern 'wonderbone' has caused students problems for quite a few years...hard to play, hard to hold and deficient in sound..... but popular nonetheless.

There is no simple progression in trombone manufacture...ask any Williams player.

Chris

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-04-28 4:17 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111331" time="1588053890" user_id="3637">

Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?[/quote]

Eh. In fact, there are string instruments available (which, by the way, are NOT cheap) from makers that do many things better than Stradivarius instruments. Some even sound like... a louder Stradivarius. I'd guess that soloists using a Stradivarius or a Guarneri or Amati are doing it for the not-insignificant numbers of audience members who listen with their eyes. Many of them don't even own the instrument, and instead have patrons who bequeath them.

International violin soloists are rock stars. They HAVE to sell out concert halls every time they make an appearance. The mystique/sticker shock attached to these antique instruments is part of that. There are few people who could identify a $1M violin against a $50K one blindly, and the number that could are not filling concert halls. It is a brand thing.

The ideas that "you have to have X horn" or "that's a nice vintage horn, it must mean you are a great artist" are sometimes harmless, sometimes not. If you really believe that you are just a steward for the next generation, sworn to maintain an instrument just as it left the factory so that someone else can enjoy it once you are dead, then by all means ignore the worsening pain in your wrist as the terrible ergonomics of the over/under triggers demolish your tendons. Try to form your embouchure just right so that you can play out of the side of your mouth and avoid having the slide widened. Privately celebrate the victory of making a sound at all, while your section mates resent you for playing late because your horn just doesn't want to respond well to you.

The "right" sound is one that is in tune, starts and ends on time, and is comprised of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive. Equipment CAN hold you back in each of these regards, especially some older equipment. Luckily for those who mesh well with the older gear, the deficiencies common to those horns are easily correctable. There is no reason to put up with hardware shortcomings just because that's how somebody thought it should be, five decades ago or more.
</QUOTE>
You say : " the right sound is one that is in tune, starts and end on time, and is comprized of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive.."

That begs the question : Have You ever tested (unaltered) vintage equipment used by good players to give a qualified statement about their alleged deficiencies..?

GBP · by **GBP** » 2020-04-28 5:17 a.m.

I think above all it is important to know the difference between opinion and fact. We are are all really talking opinion here. Some opinion is more informed/developed than other opinions but it is still opinion. It would be nice to read posts about opinions and questions about those opinions. It is less helpful to read posts about someone’s opinion being wrong, in my opinion <EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-04-28 5:55 a.m.

[quote="GBP"]I think above all it is important to know the difference between opinion and fact. We are are all really talking opinion here. Some opinion is more informed/developed than other opinions but it is still opinion. It would be nice to read posts about opinions and questions about those opinions. It is less helpful to read posts about someone’s opinion being wrong, in my opinion <EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>[/quote]
Yes opinions.. But also speculations.. Two different things! <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

Trond

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2020-04-28 7:57 a.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.

2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.

3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.

4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.

5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.

6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.

7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.[/quote]

If you are familiar with the custom car world, I'd call my 79H a "restomod" - retain as much of the original character but enhance handing and all around performance.

I upgraded the valve on my beloved Conn 79H because the ports on the valve were damaged and leaked. I picked a Rotax valve and asked the tech to minimize the modifications as much as possible. In the end I have a horn that plays better than it did prior to the repairs but retains all the vintage qualities. There were some upgrades in the process due to previous repairs on the horn that needed corrected. I also like the string linkage so the tech adapted the original lever to fit the new valve. Also retained as much of the original lacquer as possible.

I know some of the magic of this 79H is in the slide so do not want to mess with the lead pipe. I have another .522" Conn slide that is the next project. Looks like it will likely get new inners/outers and set up for a removable lead pipe. Needless to say, this project has been a royal pain to the tech as there were previous repairs discovered lurking under the surface.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2020-04-28 1:13 p.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.

2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.

3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.

4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.

5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.

6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.

7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.[/quote]

Before the shit hit the fan, I did all this except #1 to an old 60H someone had put another valve on (making it inline). The original work on the horn is not of my doing and probably another story, but the work you're talking about - modernizing the valves and putting a D slide on the horn - is necessary to make it work in any sort of contemporary playing situation. (However string linkages are probably ok, too - nothing wrong with those.) There's a 62H George Flynn used to own on consignment at J. Landress brass in NYC which I've played a few times - the valves on that horn have been bored out, and it plays great. This might be something to consider as well.

I've replaced the F valve rotor on my 185 with an Instrument Innovations valve, just because the original valve was totally shot. I probably should have sourced an original Holton valve, but I took a chance. The horn with the new valve plays great, it's very open but provides an amount of resistance I'm comfortable with coming from playing rotor valves. The caveat is that it doesn't play or sound like it used to. Is it worse? I wouldn't say that, but it's not the same. Beware before performing major surgery.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2020-04-28 1:51 p.m.

Just chiming in that I've gone the opposite direction. I've had mechanical linkages converted to string. The throw is just unparalleled. Eric Edwards did a wonderful job on one of my horns converting a Bach linkage into a very custom string linkage and I would do it again in a heartbeat. BUT there are other horns they aren't so good on. While I love the Yamaha intermediate/pro series horns and string linkages, their stock implementation of them is not my favorite. Its a little bit noisy and I think the arms are possibly a little too tight. Point being that you might be able to get something done much cheaper (and not need to worry about switching the direction of the rotation or switching out the location of the arms) by having the strings adjusted by a tech rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water. Obviously if you don't care for string linkages that's your preference but not all string linkages are created equal and I suspect you might have less of an issue if you played one that is optimized to remove the elements you don't like about your current implementation.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-28 1:52 p.m.

I hear you Nick. My concern is the routine 'upgrading' of old instruments in very good order. Rescuing down at heel old instruments is a very good endeavour. I have just finished the rebuild of a Conn 60H that the seller admitted was a bit of a dog as it stood... a USA bell section and a converted modern 62H slide. The valve was shot, but I was lucky enough to have a very good original valve to hand... total rebuild and I open wrapped the valve and a pile of bits is now a great trombone that I will use. I even saved a 70H lamp stand with two huge holes in the J bend... Rescue by all means, but pass original horns on to those who will use them and use the profit to buy something modern and easy. That's all I am suggesting.

Chris

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-28 2:00 p.m.

[quote="Trav1s"]If you are familiar with the custom car world, I'd call my 79H a "restomod" - retain as much of the original character but enhance handing and all around performance.[/quote]

Trav1s,

I was lucky. The Conn 79H I recently acquired was a true closet queen – had probably been played for only a few months since it was made in 1970 (and then perhaps "touched up" by Osmun Music, who sold it on consignment from the original owner's family). It's just like it came from the factory – slide, valve, and string linkage are quiet and perfect. It looks new and plays like a dream, and can change its character with different mouthpieces. I wouldn't change a thing! Ever! :good:

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-28 2:20 p.m.

Apart from pulling the leadpipe, I think the OPs list is fine and reasonable.

Chris

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-28 2:53 p.m.

It's almost as if... It's fine to have work done on vintage instruments...? :amazed:

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-04-28 2:56 p.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]

You say : " the right sound is one that is in tune, starts and end on time, and is comprized of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive.."

That begs the question : Have You ever tested (unaltered) vintage equipment used by good players to give a qualified statement about their alleged deficiencies..?[/quote]

No, but not because I'm just an impudent youngster. I know plenty of pros (young and old) who use vintage equipment. Guess what? EVERY SINGLE HORN has been modified. Mods range from the relatively minor (changing the actuation direction for the Conn 88H valve, helps eliminate pop apparently) to fully-custom frankenhorns.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-28 2:56 p.m.

I’ve told this story several times over the years.

I used to have a 1968-ish 62H. It came from LA/S Ferguson with 2 lead pipes, one of which was clearly better than the other. On the good pipe, one could read “Minick” scratched into it.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-04-28 2:58 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Apart from pulling the leadpipe, I think the OPs list is fine and reasonable.

Chris[/quote]

Yes, all seem reasonable. Although, if the leadpipe has been munched, there are faithful reproductions of vintage pipes that will play far better than a ragged brass remnant.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-28 3:16 p.m.

Keep the parts.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-28 4:03 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"][/quote]

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.

[/quote]

I'm missing something. What's strange?

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-28 4:08 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]It's almost as if... It's fine to have work done on vintage instruments...? :amazed:[/quote]

work done....

I won't take that bait....

Chris

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-28 4:13 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]

I'm missing something. What's strange?
[/quote]

As I said earlier to tbarh-

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-28 4:15 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="111372" time="1588098059" user_id="7109">
Apart from pulling the leadpipe, I think the OPs list is fine and reasonable.

Chris[/quote]

Yes, all seem reasonable. Although, if the leadpipe has been munched, there are faithful reproductions of vintage pipes that will play far better than a ragged brass remnant.
</QUOTE>

Yes, of course if the pipe is corroded it ruins the instrument, but finding a viable replacement can be time consuming and expensive...I have around 25 pipes, including two 70H pipes and I will still buy interesting pipes just in case. A great pipe in one trombone is rubbish in another.

Chris

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-04-28 4:24 p.m.

Vintage strings like Guarneri and Stradivarius in orchestras have all ben worked on, very much actually.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-04-28 4:34 p.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]Vintage strings like Guarneri and Stradivarius in orchestras have all ben worked on, very much actually.[/quote]

So have trombones that are 300 years old.

Chris

mrdeacon · 2020-04-28 4:50 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="111397" time="1588104219" user_id="7573">

I'm missing something. What's strange?
[/quote]

As I said earlier to tbarh-

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

</QUOTE>
I mean is it that strange? We all know the history of Conn in the U.K.

The trombones made in the U.K until Rath is established are all either out of style or garbage. It makes sense that Elkhart Conn instruments are still what's highly regarded and used. I'm sure in another 20-30 years Rath will slowly eclipse the use of the Elkhart Conns and become the instrument associated with the U.K sound but until all the Elkhart Conns fall apart it'll be the Conn that reigns supreme.

Don't forget even certain orchestras and groups in the United States rely on instruments of certain vintage... Chicago Symphony has most (all?) of the players playing on modified Mount Vernons. LA studio scene still has almost everyone playing on vintage Elkhart 62h and 62h style Greenhoes and vintage Conn 8h/88h and Bach 42b styled instruments in the studios. New York has a weird religious following of Holtons with certain cats. Religious following of Minick and Williams instruments in Los Angeles.... and many more!

ooof and don't even get horn players started on the Conn 8D!

Not sure where I was going with that last point but just saying... there are scenes in the U.S where people still go for those vintage horns. I do realize that it doesn't entirely match up with your point of these vintage instruments coming from another country but my point still stands.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2020-04-28 4:50 p.m.

[quote="ngrinder"]<QUOTE author="MTbassbone" post_id="111133" time="1587874233" user_id="3107">
An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.

2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.

3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.

4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.

5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.

6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.

7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.[/quote]

Before the sh*t hit the fan, I did all this except #1 to an old 60H someone had put another valve on (making it inline). The original work on the horn is not of my doing and probably another story, but the work you're talking about - modernizing the valves and putting a D slide on the horn - is necessary to make it work in any sort of contemporary playing situation. (However string linkages are probably ok, too - nothing wrong with those.) There's a 62H George Flynn used to own on consignment at J. Landress brass in NYC which I've played a few times - the valves on that horn have been bored out, and it plays great. This might be something to consider as well.

I've replaced the F valve rotor on my 185 with an Instrument Innovations valve, just because the original valve was totally shot. I probably should have sourced an original Holton valve, but I took a chance. The horn with the new valve plays great, it's very open but provides an amount of resistance I'm comfortable with coming from playing rotor valves. The caveat is that it doesn't play or sound like it used to. Is it worse? I wouldn't say that, but it's not the same. Beware before performing major surgery.
</QUOTE>

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-28 4:54 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.[/quote]

Aidan,

I'm not sure whether you're saying that it's "strange" that they play imported trombones in the U.K. (especially older model U.S. instruments in some cases) or whether it's their trombone sound that's strange? Can you clarify?

Last I heard a couple of London orchestras, their trombone sound was quite full and up to date. Instruments may have even been European (e.g. Courtois or ...), not U.S. I try to listen with my ears, not my eyes. (Unless I'm looking at something strikingly different, such as the Vienna horns with Pumpenvalven!)

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-28 4:55 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="111397" time="1588104219" user_id="7573">

I'm missing something. What's strange?
[/quote]

As I said earlier to tbarh-

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

</QUOTE>
It's not strange it is what it is. Why does someone else's standard have to seem/be strange? If I lived there you bet I'd have a minty Elkhart62H that I knew how to play.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-28 4:58 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="111400" time="1588104780" user_id="3131">

As I said earlier to tbarh-

[/quote]
I mean is it that strange? We all know the history of Conn in the U.K.

The trombones made in the U.K until Rath is established are all either out of style or garbage. It makes sense that Elkhart Conn instruments are still what's highly regarded and used. I'm sure in another 20-30 years Rath will slowly eclipse the use of the Elkhart Conns and become the instrument associated with the U.K sound but until all the Elkhart Conns fall apart it'll be the Conn that reigns supreme.

Don't forget even certain orchestras and groups in the United States rely on instruments of certain vintage... Chicago Symphony has most (all?) of the players playing on modified Mount Vernons. LA studio scene still has almost everyone playing on vintage Elkhart 62h and 62h style Greenhoes and vintage Conn 8h/88h and Bach 42b styled instruments in the studios. New York has a weird religious following of Holtons for certain cats. Religious following of Minick and Williams instruments in Los Angeles.... and many more!

ooof and don't even get horn players started on the Conn 8D!

Not sure where I was going with that last point but just saying... there are scenes in the U.S where people still go for those vintage horns. I do realize that it doesn't entirely match up with your point of these vintage instruments coming from another country but my point still stands.
</QUOTE>
Agreed. I'm one of those cats who plays Holtons on bass. I'll say that New York has a smorgasbord of instrument makers represented from the latest and greatest to the oldest and greatest!!!

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-04-28 4:58 p.m.

Everybody has said what they had to say, everyone knows what everyone else thinks. There's no where for this thread to go but south. How many times do we have to go through this? I think the OP gets that this is a charged issue, and maybe there's more to think about. Time to move on. Really.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-28 5:08 p.m.

Oof... As I said, I quite like the British trombone sound (which is distinct and great in its own right). I just think it's odd that a whole music scene has gravitated in the last 50 years towards only a small subset of a foreign manufactures' inventory. I can't think of another place that does that to the same degree.

Odd doesn't mean bad, please don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2020-04-28 5:16 p.m.

Much has transpired since I hit quote but I think this still makes sense - have to get back from my lunch break.

Don't forget even certain orchestras and groups in the United States rely on instruments of certain vintage... Chicago Symphony has most (all?) of the players playing on modified Mount Vernons. LA studio scene still has almost everyone playing on vintage Elkhart 62h and 62h and vintage Conn and Bach 42 styled instruments in the studios. New York has a weird religious following of Holtons for certain cats. And many more!

Not sure where I was going with that last point but just saying... there are scenes in the U.S where people still go for those vintage horns.

If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.

I'm not familiar of any dataset that would indicate something like this with any degree of certainty or reliability. But I noticed when I visited Ireland a few years ago a similar fervor for Elkhart 88s; in fact, I sat in with a big band there at a local pub in Dublin that had 4 Elkhart 88hs memory serving. (Then, of course, other big bands where more conventional commercial equipment were used, though still predominantly Conns like the Conn 6H which I seldom see in the US). I wonder how prevalent it is worldwide to have marketing or other forces that have led to a similar makeup. US & UK are the most strongly represented here with very much everything else falling off the proverbial cliff in terms of numbers but anecdotally it would be interesting to hear if the US is the weird one in this regard or if the UK is anomalous. The only thing that I can kind of think of is that I know Yamaha are pretty popular in Japan, unsurprisingly, but I think its reasonable to assume that decent quality, domestic instruments will always be at least marginally popular.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-04-28 5:25 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111336" time="1588061851" user_id="3637">

You say : " the right sound is one that is in tune, starts and end on time, and is comprized of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive.."

That begs the question : Have You ever tested (unaltered) vintage equipment used by good players to give a qualified statement about their alleged deficiencies..?[/quote]

No, but not because I'm just an impudent youngster. I know plenty of pros (young and old) who use vintage equipment. Guess what? EVERY SINGLE HORN has been modified. Mods range from the relatively minor (changing the actuation direction for the Conn 88H valve, helps eliminate pop apparently) to fully-custom frankenhorns.
</QUOTE>
Where I live(in Norway), and the other nordic countries and Britain, there are a lot of unaltered Conn 88H, 62H and Holtons used by professionals.. Pampered, serviced and loved, yes... But unaltered... Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-04-28 5:29 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.[/quote]
Heh I thought the same thing after I posted it which is why I added that little blurb at the bottom of my post :pant:

Maybe a better comparison would have been the prevalent use of German instruments in the United States at the turn of the 20th century. It took 20-30+ years for American trombones to finally take over the use of German instruments in American orchestras. Even then many of the great orchestral trombone designs of the 20s, 30s and 40s were directly based on existing German instruments or made directly in a German-style. It wouldn't be until the 50's and 60's that American orchestral trombones really became their own thing.

Like I said in my other post I'm sure at some point Rath and other manufacturers will take over the Elkhart Conn but it doesn't seem far stretched at all to me as to why they're still being used in the U.K.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-04-28 6:01 p.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?[/quote]

I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff

- Ergonomics do not work for some people

- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe

- There aren't actually that many of them

- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-28 6:26 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111418" time="1588109101" user_id="3637">
Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?[/quote]

I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff

- Ergonomics do not work for some people

- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe

- There aren't actually that many of them

- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.
</QUOTE>

My 1972 Conn 88H has perfectly decent response throughout its range, especially with the right mouthpiece. I am quite comfortable with its ergonomics. And I am very happy playing a Conn 88HCL (also now outdated, I guess), which has a wonderful valve.

I take meticulous care of these trombones, so they are in great shape.

Yes, I'm an old-timer, but I played professionally in orchestras decades ago. All the trumpets then were Bach Stradivarius. Nobody told me then that I didn't "blend well." (I suppose they were being polite.) I still got paid though. And a few solo bows at the end of some concerts. Guess I couldn't cut it these days. :idk:

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-28 6:31 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111418" time="1588109101" user_id="3637">
Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?[/quote]

I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff

- Ergonomics do not work for some people

- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe

- There aren't actually that many of them

- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.
</QUOTE>

Your thoughts. Others vary. Like mine. Mine has very good response below the staff. Ergonomics are okay for me. Mouthpiece options severely limited? Maybe unless the receiver is so work anything will fit. Mine's in great shape-have had it since 7th grade. The blend also has a lot to do with the player.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2020-04-28 9:50 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="111416" time="1588108579" user_id="48">
If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.[/quote]
Heh I thought the same thing after I posted it which is why I added that little blurb at the bottom of my post :pant:

Maybe a better comparison would have been the prevalent use of German instruments in the United States at the turn of the 20th century. It took 20-30+ years for American trombones to finally take over the use of German instruments in American orchestras. Even then many of the great orchestral trombone designs of the 20s, 30s and 40s were directly based on existing German instruments or made directly in a German-style. It wouldn't be until the 50's and 60's that American orchestral trombones really became their own thing.

Like I said in my other post I'm sure at some point Rath and other manufacturers will take over the Elkhart Conn but it doesn't seem far stretched at all to me as to why they're still being used in the U.K.
</QUOTE>

Haha yeah I know the feeling! Your example of the German instruments in the former half of the 20th century is a great example. Actually, ironically favoring a non-domestic entity over what would be contemporary Conns in the time period. What's interesting to me is, with how prevalent targeted marketing is, outreach from large scale companies like Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have made a tremendous dent in the market.

Was Bousfield using the Yamaha while he was in the LSO? Quite different from an 88... or at least the one I played was. Interesting that that it didn't seem to influence things away from the 88 style looking at his tenure with hindsight if he did.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-28 10:14 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="111416" time="1588108579" user_id="48">
If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.[/quote]
Heh I thought the same thing after I posted it which is why I added that little blurb at the bottom of my post :pant:

Maybe a better comparison would have been the prevalent use of German instruments in the United States at the turn of the 20th century. It took 20-30+ years for American trombones to finally take over the use of German instruments in American orchestras. Even then many of the great orchestral trombone designs of the 20s, 30s and 40s were directly based on existing German instruments or made directly in a German-style. It wouldn't be until the 50's and 60's that American orchestral trombones really became their own thing.

Like I said in my other post I'm sure at some point Rath and other manufacturers will take over the Elkhart Conn but it doesn't seem far stretched at all to me as to why they're still being used in the U.K.
</QUOTE>

Aha! Well thought out comments. I do feel like this period has gone on a bit longer than the US one you mention, especially with the availability of instruments these days.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-04-29 2:54 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="111418" time="1588109101" user_id="3637">
Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?[/quote]

I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff

- Ergonomics do not work for some people

- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe

- There aren't actually that many of them

- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.
</QUOTE>
Wow, i totally disagree with everything You write!!

In addition : - the wide open leadpipe You talk about are a really Great asset... Means that You can shape the sound without having the "horn play You"..

-"bad response below the Staff", really?

- "do not blend with Bach trumpets", For real???

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-29 7:54 a.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]<QUOTE author="paulyg" post_id="111423" time="1588111315" user_id="3299">

I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff

- Ergonomics do not work for some people

- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe

- There aren't actually that many of them

- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.[/quote]
Wow, i totally disagree with everything You write!!

In addition : - the wide open leadpipe You talk about are a really Great asset... Means that You can shape the sound without having the "horn play You"..

-"bad response below the Staff", really?

- "do not blend with Bach trumpets", For real???
</QUOTE>

Tbarh I completely agree with you!

ChadA · by **ChadA** » 2020-04-29 9:04 a.m.

It's really going to depend on the individual and instrument in question. While I fall more into the "trombone is a tool not a trophy" camp, there is value to leaving some vintage horns alone. I have an amazing 8H bell section from the 60s (based on the engraving; the original slide and therefore the serial # are gone). It's in near mint shape visually and plays great. I'd play it every day except that some of the things I play and some of the situations I play in necessitate a valve. I'm sure I could find a great tech to add a valve to it, but that would involve burning original lacquer, probably cutting up the neckpipe (or using a new one with the valve) and it would alter the horn in ways I'm not comfortable doing. It's just too nice a player and looker as it is to gamble on whether I'd be happy with it afterward.

Another option would be to try the older German solution and what Yamaha and others have used on altos with valves. :) Get a new tuning slide and have a valve section built as part of the tuning slide, so the bell section is untouched and the valve section comes off with the tuning slide. But that's ergonomically weird is some cases... :)

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-04-29 9:46 a.m.

[quote="ChadA"]It's really going to depend on the individual and instrument in question. While I fall more into the "trombone is a tool not a trophy" camp, there is value to leaving some vintage horns alone. I have an amazing 8H bell section from the 60s (based on the engraving; the original slide and therefore the serial # are gone). It's in near mint shape visually and plays great. I'd play it every day except that some of the things I play and some of the situations I play in necessitate a valve. I'm sure I could find a great tech to add a valve to it, but that would involve burning original lacquer, probably cutting up the neckpipe (or using a new one with the valve) and it would alter the horn in ways I'm not comfortable doing. It's just too nice a player and looker as it is to gamble on whether I'd be happy with it afterward.

Another option would be to try the older German solution and what Yamaha and others have used on altos with valves. :) Get a new tuning slide and have a valve section built as part of the tuning slide, so the bell section is untouched and the valve section comes off with the tuning slide. But that's ergonomically weird is some cases... :)[/quote]

Your first sentence nails it. It does depend on the person and the instrument. And that's why I don't like absolutes coming from players about what an instrument can or cannot do.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-04-29 3:16 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Oof... As I said, I quite like the British trombone sound (which is distinct and great in its own right). I just think it's odd that a whole music scene has gravitated in the last 50 years towards only a small subset of a foreign manufactures' inventory. I can't think of another place that does that to the same degree.
[/quote]

I think we cannot emphasize enough the influence Denis Wick has had on the British trombone community, or even the British brass-playing community. After he smuggled in a few Conns post-WWII, the British trombone and brass scene changed. Period.

Another historical example: in the late Renaissance-early Baroque, most of the trombones and trumpets in Italy were manufactured by a few workshops in Germany. Yes, there were Italian makers, but there are few extant Italian instruments from that period, and (if remember Stewart Carter’s book correctly), they were of inferior quality.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-29 3:30 p.m.

Denis later played a 42. That didn't seem to influence as much!

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-04-29 3:36 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Denis later played a 42. That didn't seem to influence as much![/quote]

Denis switched to Bach 42 in 1978 as he said conn standards had dropped Abilene indeed.... A few people switched to the 42 but conn where so established, and Bach with the exception of Bill Watrous and the 16m have never promoted their trombones very much here in the UK

Sadly until Mick Rath,trombones made here never reached the conn Elkhart standard, although In the early 1990's Denis worked with Gary Greenhoe to develop a proto type for boosey and stupidly bosses decided not to go with it

On the commercial side Don Lusher played King 2b so that explains why vintage 2b's are still popular too

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-29 4:24 p.m.

Sort of like Michael Jordan and Nike, I suppose. :idk:

Follow the celebrity's lead. Be like Mike.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2020-04-29 5:02 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Another historical example: in the late Renaissance-early Baroque, most of the trombones and trumpets in Italy were manufactured by a few workshops in Germany. Yes, there were Italian makers, but there are few extant Italian instruments from that period, and (if remember Stewart Carter’s book correctly), they were of inferior quality.[/quote]

There are so few surviving instruments at all from this period that it is impossible to make any such generalization. Certainly instruments from Nuremberg were popular and held in the highest regards, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Italian instruments were necessarily inferior or unpopular. You can count the number of surviving pre-1600 trombones on two hands, and there are two Italian instruments among the 5 oldest surviving trombones. One is a very, very good Venetian instrument, the other has a superb tone and great overtones tuning in its current form, but the original bell flare is missing and replaced with a modern reconstruction and the inner slide is likely 17th century but not original to the instrument (later replacement for a broken slide, probably), so it's hard to say if the horn was as good (or better) originally. It is however a very fancy instrument with very extensive decorations and the biggest collection of extension crooks I know of, so certainly at the time it would have been very expensive and a very high end instrument.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-04-29 5:05 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]Sort of like Michael Jordan and Nike, I suppose. :idk:

Follow the celebrity's lead. Be like Mike.[/quote]

Not really , the conn's were so superior to anything being produced here, a larger bore and better than anything you could buy, and remember there had been a ban on import of American instruments so most where still playing pea shooters, and all of a sudden there are these trombones with great slides and well made it was a no brainier to think that they would not very quickly become very popular

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-04-29 5:52 p.m.

[quote="Vegasbound"]Not really , the conn's were so superior to anything being produced here, a larger bore and better than anything you could buy, and remember there had been a ban on import of American instruments so most where still playing pea shooters, and all of a sudden there are these trombones with great slides and well made it was a no brainier to think that they would not very quickly become very popular[/quote]
The same thing seems to have happened in reverse with euphoniums. Not much call for an American-style euphonium these days outside some college marching bands that use them.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2020-04-29 6:22 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="111414" time="1588108134" user_id="3131">
Oof... As I said, I quite like the British trombone sound (which is distinct and great in its own right). I just think it's odd that a whole music scene has gravitated in the last 50 years towards only a small subset of a foreign manufactures' inventory. I can't think of another place that does that to the same degree.[/quote]

I think we cannot emphasize enough the influence Denis Wick has had on the British trombone community, or even the British brass-playing community. After he smuggled in a few Conns post-WWII, the British trombone and brass scene changed. Period.
</QUOTE>

My understanding is that the breakthrough was when the NY Phil visited shortly after the war. Wick then amplified the effect by bringing in many instruments over the years for, ahem, personal use. I suspect that there's growing variety now with all the new makers (I've seen a few Courtois amongst the college kids), and I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-04-29 7:45 p.m.

I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.

The Elkhart 88Hs are 50-60 years old. Slides and valves might be getting worn.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-04-29 8:32 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.[/quote] Do you know which models? I would assume they are using the YSL-882GO, which would be the closest to the 88h.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-29 8:36 p.m.

Saw the Royal Philharmonic here in January. Don't think I saw any Conns in the trombone section, but I was too far away be sure. In any case, they sounded wonderful – not at all like the British orchestras of decades past.

Vive le difference! :good:

EdwardSolomon · by **EdwardSolomon** » 2020-04-30 4:51 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]Saw the Royal Philharmonic here in January. Don't think I saw any Conns in the trombone section, but I was too far away be sure. In any case, they sounded wonderful – not at all like the British orchestras of decades past.

Vive le difference! :good:[/quote]

RPO trombones are Matt Gee (Getzen), Matt Knight (Conn 88H), Josh Cirtina (Elkhart Conn 62H bass).

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-04-30 1:41 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="111528" time="1588187762" user_id="172">
Another historical example: in the late Renaissance-early Baroque, most of the trombones and trumpets in Italy were manufactured by a few workshops in Germany. Yes, there were Italian makers, but there are few extant Italian instruments from that period, and (if remember Stewart Carter’s book correctly), they were of inferior quality.[/quote]

There are so few surviving instruments at all from this period that it is impossible to make any such generalization. Certainly instruments from Nuremberg were popular and held in the highest regards, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Italian instruments were necessarily inferior or unpopular. You can count the number of surviving pre-1600 trombones on two hands, and there are two Italian instruments among the 5 oldest surviving trombones. One is a very, very good Venetian instrument, the other has a superb tone and great overtones tuning in its current form, but the original bell flare is missing and replaced with a modern reconstruction and the inner slide is likely 17th century but not original to the instrument (later replacement for a broken slide, probably), so it's hard to say if the horn was as good (or better) originally. It is however a very fancy instrument with very extensive decorations and the biggest collection of extension crooks I know of, so certainly at the time it would have been very expensive and a very high end instrument.
</QUOTE>

Thanks for the correction. I appreciate the accurate input.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2020-04-30 2:30 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]I hear you Nick. My concern is the routine 'upgrading' of old instruments in very good order. Rescuing down at heel old instruments is a very good endeavour. I have just finished the rebuild of a Conn 60H that the seller admitted was a bit of a dog as it stood... a USA bell section and a converted modern 62H slide. The valve was shot, but I was lucky enough to have a very good original valve to hand... total rebuild and I open wrapped the valve and a pile of bits is now a great trombone that I will use. I even saved a 70H lamp stand with two huge holes in the J bend... Rescue by all means, but pass original horns on to those who will use them and use the profit to buy something modern and easy. That's all I am suggesting.

Chris[/quote]

You make a very good point, Chris! Well taken. Though folks can appear to be "heated" on this subject, I think the dialogue this thread has spurned has been very interesting. Valuable to hear your perspective, Chris, as well others' of course!

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-04-30 3:00 p.m.

I'm flattered that people are taking the time to read my responses, it makes me feel like I have something to contribute. I'll share a few anecdotes about my experience with my old 88H, since my conclusions don't seem to stand on their own.

SOUND: I came to my Elkhart 88H from an extremely "meh" Eastlake horn. The Eastlake was like a dollar-store knock-off of an 88H, and mine was missing the supposedly amazing slide action that sets most of those horns apart. Though my 88H sounded on the lighter side, even for these very light horns, it had an individual character that was addicting to me. It was an absolute gem of an instrument to play.

EASE OF PLAYING: From F in the staff, to high C, the horn was probably the best I've ever played- except for the Ab. I'll give it a pass on that, as I've never really been satisfied with that note on any instrument I've had. It was great to sit in a symphony orchestra and just have 99.5% of the notes for first trombone sit right there. Outside those ranges, though, it got pretty fiddly. No matter what I did, over the four years I owned the horn, I could NOT get it to center down low. Low Bb felt awful to play. I went through every mouthpiece available, from 6.5AL all the way down to a NY 1.5- all made it easier to play louder, but not easier to center notes down there. Before anyone yells "PRACTICE, NOT MOUTHPIECES," I was practicing down there- a LOT. Fast, slow, scales, arpeggios, long tones- nothing worked. It was like there were two horns in one. The best way I can describe the sensation is that the sound down there got "sour" and nothing I did could fix it. Maybe it was a coincidence, but these problems started to clear up almost immediately after I got a Bach 42 with an Olsen valve.

BLEND: I could make this instrument sound almost indistinguishable from a horn. In fact, one day I was warming up in a corner, and when I emerged somebody was shocked that I was holding a trombone. Playing Ewald quintets, all of the parallel trombone/horn lines sounded incredible. Horn/trombone unisons in orchestral works were home base for me. But, like I said, I worked so hard, and was never successful at blending with trumpets the same way- especially Bach trumpets. Interestingly, I was very satisfied with how it blended with rotary trumpets (Kanstul). If you are interested in hearing a less extreme example of what I'm talking about, listen to the Empire Brass Russian Brass CD (on youtube). Norman Bolter is (to my knowledge) playing his 88H (beautifully). It definitely sounds like a trombone- but if it weren't a trombone, it would be a horn, not a trumpet.

LOW REGISTER: I tried to develop my low register on this horn. I failed. I got a trigger register when I started doubling bass trombone.

Finally, ME VS. EVERYONE ELSE: I sold the horn to a monster player. We played several gigs together after he bought my old 88H, and he sounded absolutely amazing on it. He could demolish trigger notes, get an amazing core out of it that could level a viola section, and make it sing at pianissimo like nobody's business. Sure, he is a better player than me. All the same, it blew his Abilene 88H out of the water. He also uses a Wick 5AL. He does not project any of the sourness I experienced down low, and has no problem blending with trumpets of any make. He also hates playing Bach 42s.

Would a wide slide, bigger valve, and different leadpipe have helped me address the issues I experienced with the horn? Maybe. Would they have been necessary for everyone? Definitely not. I will say that even though I am extremely happy with my current tenor, I am itching to try one of the Sawday 88Hs. Wide slide, bigger valve, different leadpipe. Hmmm, maybe they're on to something. If I lived on a desert island where I HAD to play an 88H of some kind, that's probably the one I would take. Luckily, though, I live in a free country.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-01 1:00 a.m.

You have to give an instrument the kind of input that it needs. If you're not sensitive enough or can't figure it out, that horn isn't gong to work for you. Sometimes that's mouthpiece related and sometimes not.

The basic Bach vs Conn situation.

I owned my first Williams 6 for at least a couple of years before I figured out how to play it... I didn't like it at first but I kept coming back to it periodically until I learned what it needed. I'm glad I didn't start messing with leadpipes or slide crooks or anything else.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-05-01 3:01 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]You have to give an instrument the kind of input that it needs. If you're not sensitive enough or can't figure it out, that horn isn't gong to work for you. Sometimes that's mouthpiece related and sometimes not.

The basic Bach vs Conn situation.

I owned my first Williams 6 for at least a couple of years before I figured out how to play it... I didn't like it at first but I kept coming back to it periodically until I learned what it needed. I'm glad I didn't start messing with leadpipes or slide crooks or anything else.[/quote]

THIS THIS THIS !!

Chris

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2020-05-01 6:34 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I owned my first Williams 6 for at least a couple of years before I figured out how to play it... I didn't like it at first but I kept coming back to it periodically until I learned what it needed.[/quote]

Ditto with a Bach 50 that I’ve had for most of a decade. I must have put that horn back in the case a dozen times and said “never again!” I even looked to sell it at one point, to get it out of my life!

But the sound kept drawing me back, and I’ve learnt what I need to do to really make it sing. I’ve played it almost exclusively during this period without gigs, and I don’t really see myself reaching for my Edwards anytime soon...

Andrew

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-05-01 7:06 a.m.

Doug totally nailed it in a succinct way. The first Holton bass I got I bought from Frank Mathieson who was bass trombone in the LSO. A TR 180, I expected to pick it up and sound just like Frank.... the reality was very different and it played quite differently to my expectations. I knew that actual instrument could sound amazing, so I set about learning how to make it work. I learned how to play Holtons. I had already got a grounding in Conns and much later, I got to grips with Raths. I was offered a Williams a few years back but I passed on it, basically because I felt that I didn't want to spend the time learning how to play another make.

Long winded version of what Doug said.

Learn it, don't hack it.

Chris

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-05-01 9:45 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Learn it, don't hack it.

Chris[/quote]

That's my belief too. I'm not just agreeing because Chris and Doug said so. I never revealed how many horns I own, but there are a lot of them here and most are old ones. Conns, Holtons, Bachs and Kings mostly but also Yamahas, Kanstuls, William's, Keefer, Alexander, R. Piering, Courtois and odd horns like Wunderlish and Commodore and many more brands I guess I missed. What I've learned by owning and playing all those is exactly what Chris and Doug says. Every horn is different and needs to be played differently and may need another mouthpiece. My belief is you can access a horn in two different ways. The first is you blow it like the horn you are coming from and the second is you adopt to the horn and blow it different until you learn what the new horn wants. You may discover the blow that gives the best sound is another blow and it then gives another kind of sound than the sound you get from the other horn. In some horns you may aim in the middle to get the best sound, in another horn you may need to aim slight high or low - off the centre. You figure this out and try different mouthpieces until you get the picture. You then explore the new horn from that sound and learn how to color it. The best sound of the horn needs to be explored.

I guess some think they need two valves to make any use of a bass trombone. We have had such discussions before. A lot of repertoire does not require two valves and then there are false notes. A single has its place. It is also absolutely possible to play a dependant horn with old kind of rotors. They have been around for a while and can be found used at a good price There are also some used double valved old style inline horns that can be bought cheap. I have a great Benge 290 and a P24G that are great. I'm sure now there are also at least some double inline thayers that are used and cheaper now on the after market. I can not see the need to chop up horns then to build a Franken inline thayer bass, but of course someone might do it for fun and because they believe in that project.

/Tom

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-05-01 9:46 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Learn it, don't hack it.

Chris[/quote]

That's my belief too. I'm not just agreeing because Chris and Doug said so. I never revealed how many horns I own, but there are a lot of them here and most are old ones. Conns, Holtons, Bachs and Kings mostly but also Yamahas, Kanstuls, William's, Keefer, Alexander, R. Piering, Courtois and odd horns like Wunderlish and Commodore and many, many more. What I've learned by owning and playing all those is exactly what Chris and Doug says. Every horn is different and needs to be played differently and may need another mouthpiece. My belief is you can access a horn in two different ways. The first is you blow it like the horn you are coming from and the second is you adopt to the horn and blow it different until you learn what the new horn wants. You may discover the blow that gives the best sound is another kind of sound than the sound you got from the other horn. You then explore the new horn from that sound and learn how to color it.

I guess some think they need two valves to make any use of a bass trombone. We have had such discussions before. A lot of repertoire does not require two valves and then there are false notes. There is absolutely possible to play a dependant horn.There are also used double valved horns inline horns that can be bought cheap. I have a great Benge 290 and a P24G that are great. I'm sure now there are double inline thayers that are used too. I can not see the need to chop up horns then, but of course someone might do it for fun.

/Tom

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-05-01 9:46 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="111696" time="1588331165" user_id="7109">
Learn it, don't hack it.

Chris[/quote]

That's my belief too. I'm not just agreeing because Chris and Doug said so. I never revealed how many horns I own, but there are a lot of them here and most are old ones. Conns, Holtons, Bachs and Kings mostly but also Yamahas, Kanstuls, William's, Keefer, Alexander, R. Piering, Courtois and odd horns like Wunderlish and Commodore and many, many more. What I've learned by owning and playing all those is exactly what Chris and Doug says. Every horn is different and needs to be played differently and may need another mouthpiece. My belief is you can access a horn in two different ways. The first is you blow it like the horn you are coming from and the second is you adopt to the horn and blow it different until you learn what the new horn wants. You may discover the blow that gives the best sound is another kind of sound than the sound you got from the other horn. You then explore the new horn from that sound and learn how to color it.

I guess some think they need two valves to make any use of a bass trombone. We have had such discussions before. A lot of repertoire does not require two valves and then there are false notes. There is absolutely possible to play a dependant horn.There are also used double valved horns inline horns that can be bought cheap. I have a great Benge 290 and a P24G that are great. I'm sure now there are double inline thayers that are used too. I can not see the need to chop up horns then, but of course someone might do it for fun.

/Tom
</QUOTE>

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2020-05-01 10:42 a.m.

Maybe a lot of others feel the way I do. I don't want to be bothered with dents, worn inner stockings, worn or shot valves, worn lacquer, misaligned slides, etc - even if a classic vintage horn might have a certain je ne sais quoi. I want to play a new, bright shiny horn. Modernized 'em if you got 'em, but I'll take a new one or two, please.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-01 10:49 a.m.

That's what keeps manufacturers in business and we all thank you for it.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-05-01 12:46 p.m.

To a paulyg, I'm pretty sure that Norman Bolter played his Bach 42B on all of the Empire Brass recordings. I know that on his blog, he talks about showing up at New England Conservatory playing a Conn 8H, but needing a valve for one of his first orchestra concerts. He went to Rayburn or Osmun and picked out the best trigger horn of what they had in stock - a 42B. The BSO section did play Conns on some literature during his time there, and according to his blog, last time I read it, he's been playing his 88H lately, in retirement. I think the Bach was his go-to horn for many years, with his later time in the BSO on a Shires.

Jim Scott

Bach5G · 2020-05-01 12:59 p.m.

You guys are killing me. All this talk of great old horns reminds me of the great old horns I owned at one time or another. Williams, a Minick, a Conn 62H, a Corp 42B I had Benn Hansen put a Thayer on, a tank of an Edwards bass and a very nice 1963 C###### 88H that once belonged to a prominent player who developed focal dystonia and moved into conducting. Of course, the reality of it is that the sale of one horn was used to purchase the next. It would be nice to go back and get a redo knowing what I know now but that applies to many, many things and, I suppose, if I had a limited number of such opportunities, I might not want to waste them on trombones .

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-01 1:44 p.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]To a paulyg, I'm pretty sure that Norman Bolter played his Bach 42B on all of the Empire Brass recordings. I know that on his blog, he talks about showing up at New England Conservatory playing a Conn 8H, but needing a valve for one of his first orchestra concerts. He went to Rayburn or Osmun and picked out the best trigger horn of what they had in stock - a 42B. The BSO section did play Conns on some literature during his time there, and according to his blog, last time I read it, he's been playing his 88H lately, in retirement. I think the Bach was his go-to horn for many years, with his later time in the BSO on a Shires.

Jim Scott[/quote]

Norman joined the Boston Symphony Orchestra in 1975 (at age 20!). He probably showed up at New England Conservatory in 1972 or 1973, at age 17 or 18. Ron Barron was then the BSO's new Principal Trombonist. In 1972, I needed a new F-attachment trombone, and asked Ron for help: he sent me to John Coffey (BSO alum who ran a brass store across the street from NEC, specializing in trombones). I tried everything that John had in stock – 4 Bach 42Bs and a single Conn 88H. The 88H was far superior, and I purchased it (and still treasure it). As it turned out, I believe that was the last 88H he had for a while, since Conn production had moved to Abilene. So by the time Norman arrived in 1972 or 1973, there would have been only (probably inferior) Abilene 88Hs (if any) to try out. I expect the Bach 42B was then an obvious choice, which also probably matched what Ron was playing at the time. Serendipity? :idk:

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-05-01 2:48 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]I'm flattered that people are taking the time to read my responses, it makes me feel like I have something to contribute. I'll share a few anecdotes about my experience with my old 88H, since my conclusions don't seem to stand on their own.

SOUND: I came to my Elkhart 88H from an extremely "meh" Eastlake horn. The Eastlake was like a dollar-store knock-off of an 88H, and mine was missing the supposedly amazing slide action that sets most of those horns apart. Though my 88H sounded on the lighter side, even for these very light horns, it had an individual character that was addicting to me. It was an absolute gem of an instrument to play.

EASE OF PLAYING: From F in the staff, to high C, the horn was probably the best I've ever played- except for the Ab. I'll give it a pass on that, as I've never really been satisfied with that note on any instrument I've had. It was great to sit in a symphony orchestra and just have 99.5% of the notes for first trombone sit right there. Outside those ranges, though, it got pretty fiddly. No matter what I did, over the four years I owned the horn, I could NOT get it to center down low. Low Bb felt awful to play. I went through every mouthpiece available, from 6.5AL all the way down to a NY 1.5- all made it easier to play louder, but not easier to center notes down there. Before anyone yells "PRACTICE, NOT MOUTHPIECES," I was practicing down there- a LOT. Fast, slow, scales, arpeggios, long tones- nothing worked. It was like there were two horns in one. The best way I can describe the sensation is that the sound down there got "sour" and nothing I did could fix it. Maybe it was a coincidence, but these problems started to clear up almost immediately after I got a Bach 42 with an Olsen valve.

BLEND: I could make this instrument sound almost indistinguishable from a horn. In fact, one day I was warming up in a corner, and when I emerged somebody was shocked that I was holding a trombone. Playing Ewald quintets, all of the parallel trombone/horn lines sounded incredible. Horn/trombone unisons in orchestral works were home base for me. But, like I said, I worked so hard, and was never successful at blending with trumpets the same way- especially Bach trumpets. Interestingly, I was very satisfied with how it blended with rotary trumpets (Kanstul). If you are interested in hearing a less extreme example of what I'm talking about, listen to the Empire Brass Russian Brass CD (on youtube). Norman Bolter is (to my knowledge) playing his 88H (beautifully). It definitely sounds like a trombone- but if it weren't a trombone, it would be a horn, not a trumpet.

LOW REGISTER: I tried to develop my low register on this horn. I failed. I got a trigger register when I started doubling bass trombone.

Finally, ME VS. EVERYONE ELSE: I sold the horn to a monster player. We played several gigs together after he bought my old 88H, and he sounded absolutely amazing on it. He could demolish trigger notes, get an amazing core out of it that could level a viola section, and make it sing at pianissimo like nobody's business. Sure, he is a better player than me. All the same, it blew his Abilene 88H out of the water. He also uses a Wick 5AL. He does not project any of the sourness I experienced down low, and has no problem blending with trumpets of any make. He also hates playing Bach 42s.

Would a wide slide, bigger valve, and different leadpipe have helped me address the issues I experienced with the horn? Maybe. Would they have been necessary for everyone? Definitely not. I will say that even though I am extremely happy with my current tenor, I am itching to try one of the Sawday 88Hs. Wide slide, bigger valve, different leadpipe. Hmmm, maybe they're on to something. If I lived on a desert island where I HAD to play an 88H of some kind, that's probably the one I would take. Luckily, though, I live in a free country.[/quote]

Well it IS a forum. We read what people write.

fsgazda · by **fsgazda** » 2020-05-01 3:16 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]BLEND: I could make this instrument sound almost indistinguishable from a horn. In fact, one day I was warming up in a corner, and when I emerged somebody was shocked that I was holding a trombone. Playing Ewald quintets, all of the parallel trombone/horn lines sounded incredible. Horn/trombone unisons in orchestral works were home base for me. But, like I said, I worked so hard, and was never successful at blending with trumpets the same way- especially Bach trumpets. Interestingly, I was very satisfied with how it blended with rotary trumpets (Kanstul). If you are interested in hearing a less extreme example of what I'm talking about, listen to the Empire Brass Russian Brass CD (on youtube). Norman Bolter is (to my knowledge) playing his 88H (beautifully). It definitely sounds like a trombone- but if it weren't a trombone, it would be a horn, not a trumpet.[/quote]

If you ever heard Michael Powell in the American Brass quintet (88H, now a Rath I believe), it is unreal how he sounds like a horn one second and a bass trombone the next. 99% the player, but I think that 88Hs blend better in general than Bach style instruments.

fsgazda · by **fsgazda** » 2020-05-01 3:27 p.m.

Can you customize a vintage horn? Of course, if it's yours do what you want. There is the idea, however that there are only so many of the great classic horns left, so every one that you modify means there are even fewer originals. For some players, the originals work the best and every one that's gone is gone forever.

For me, I don't think that I would modify, I just go on to what works best for me. For example, I struggle with narrow slides on tenor. Maybe because I played exclusively bass for about 10 years before I started seriously doubling, but when I tried the Yamaha 8820, I couldn't make it work, just overblew the crap out of it. The 882OR, with the Bach style slide works great for me. Once I have found the right tool, I tend to stick with it. Played a Shires bass (granted, with on occasional tweak) since 1996 and a Shires tenor for about 8 years, which I haven't modded at all. Took me going through Bach, Edwards and Conn to settle on the Shires tenor, but once I got there I am happy. Now I spend all of my money on euphonum and tuba crap.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-05-01 4:54 p.m.

In terms of practicality, I might be able to get a 5-10% sound quality increase if I were to spend the time and money to buy vintage Bach or Conn, test slide after slide to find "the one", get the leadpipe pulled and replaced with a modern replica, and then get new valves fit on and parts replaced... the list goes on. I don't really have that kind of wasting money, or time, and I'll still sound like myself with my own personal playing issues anyway. Maybe if I do have that kind of money and time I'll do it. Props to the people that do, they are beautiful instruments and do have very unique sounds.

Because my teacher at the time is a Shires artist and the de facto 'dealer' for the area, I was able to try a ton of parts, at home, no expense up front. I picked things that capitalized on my strengths and improved my weaknesses. I then paid once for the horn, and haven't looked back. I've dinked around with lead pipes a little bit. I still sound like myself.

If I improve my sound or playing even half of 1% today, I'll make up the advantage of playing a really special vintage horn very quickly. I know that's incredibly simplistic, but I think the point stands.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-05-01 5:27 p.m.

I was wrong about Norman Bolter's horn:

http://frequencybone.blogspot.com/2007/09/?m=0

I still have to take umbrage with the "learn to play the horn" philosophy. I'm glad I didn't have a teacher pressuring me to stick with my 88H and tough it out. I worked hard on my low register for FOUR YEARS without any improvement. Somehow it got better when I got a different style of horn. Maybe it was a coincidence, but all signs point to NO. The horn is a tool. If it doesn't do the job you're asking it to do, change it. There is nothing magical about any piece of equipment, vintage or otherwise. If you believe there is, I have a bridge to sell you.

If I'd been with a teacher who insisted I play an 88H, I would absolutely have shipped it off to Don Sawday's chop shop. I don't have the time to bang my head against a brick wall trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-05-01 6:22 p.m.

I would look at this differently - no horn does absolutely everything you need to do better than every other horn. A horn with a great high range might need more work to play great in the low range, or vice versa. One might be super flexible, while another is instead very stable and locked in. As a player, we each need to figure out which qualities are we looking for, and devote some extra practicing time to lifting up the areas that don't measure up as well. I think this is also one of the reasons that most of us have a basement full of horns and drawers full of mouthpieces - we are occasionally drawn to something that makes a skill that we've been working at (either a certain technique, or a quality of sound) easier. Then the reason that we often fall back to our old equipment is that we start to miss something in the sound or response of that combination. There are some situations where the choice of a certain instrument, etc. falls very naturally into the way you play, but someone else might have the exact same experience with a totally different instrument. That doesn't mean that you can't lean to play something else if there are other gains that you feel that you're getting from that horn.

No matter what, "ya gotta practice" so figure out what does it do for you, and can you make it do whatever else you need it to do? If not, then play something else.

Jim Scott

imsevimse · 2020-05-01 6:29 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]I was wrong about Norman Bolter's horn:

http://frequencybone.blogspot.com/2007/09/?m=0

I still have to take umbrage with the "learn to play the horn" philosophy. I'm glad I didn't have a teacher pressuring me to stick with my 88H and tough it out. I worked hard on my low register for FOUR YEARS without any improvement. Somehow it got better when I got a different style of horn. Maybe it was a coincidence, but all signs point to NO. The horn is a tool. If it doesn't do the job you're asking it to do, change it. There is nothing magical about any piece of equipment, vintage or otherwise. If you believe there is, I have a bridge to sell you.

If I'd been with a teacher who insisted I play an 88H, I would absolutely have shipped it off to Don Sawday's chop shop. I don't have the time to bang my head against a brick wall trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.[/quote]
I would never stick with a horn that I did not like even if a teacher said so.

To some extent it is no point to switch a horn and that is if a player has not developed skills enough it makes a difference. A teacher could test the horn and then recommend to keep the horn until the skills are there. He might be right and you could be fine with that, but there could also be another reason a new horn could do wonders that a teacher might not see; A new horn could make you play much more and a new horn could make you believe the horn is the great difference. At some stage in development this is just how it works.

When one learned eventually one may look at horns differently. Where I'm right now I've come to the conclusion I have no bad sounding horns The few I've had that had faults have been repaired. Problem has been because of leaks, a broken rotor, a broken pipe, a bad repair or a bad slide.

I have bought many, many horn on eBay. Many were real duds when they arrived but after a good cleaning they were all right. I'm actually grateful to people who think they have a dud and sell them. I can then buy them used and give them a good cleaning and then make them work again. There are really very few bad horns in my collection, for me. The thing that holds a few of them back is their slides. I must just accept the fact older ones were built for another kind of sound concept. An old Conn 40h for example is not a bad horn at all, it just doesn't fit anywhere were I play publicly.

I think it is obvious there is something to vintage horns, because IT IS to some of us. Often people I meet who appreciate them are professional real good players. I do not think we can say they are talking nonsense. To say it is nothing special with vintage horns is to say I'm wrong and THEY are wrong which we are NOT.

I do not understand how anyone could decide what is right or wrong for other players when it comes to what horns to appreciate.

There is something to old horns because how they are built and to say it is not just reveals lack of experience. Thats my way of seeing it. Nothing strange to it because they are indeed built differently. The problem is when you start to categorie horns as good and bad horns. For whom? For what? The world is not like that anywhere. With lots of experience some can make any horn sound good as long as it is not broke.There is no horn of mine that has a bad low register if I use them right and use a good mouthpiece.

/Tom

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-05-01 6:37 p.m.

Paul, you don't have to take umbrage at the 'learn to play it' philosophy . You don't have to embrace it either....you can just ignore it.

You play for fun. You do what you do and that's fine. It couldn't be finer if you are happy.

People can and do learn how to play different makes and models...to get under the skin of an instrument as it were, but you don't have to do that.

I have a large number of really great instruments, old and new.... in reality they are probably no better than the instruments that I owned 40 years ago that were never quite right.... I've just gotten under their skins now and found out how to make them work. Some are still a work in progress.....but that's the fun to me.

Chris

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-05-02 12:34 a.m.

You always hit the nail on the head, Chris.

I think we can summarize the disagreement here as competing opinions on whether or not the player should adapt to the horn, or adapt the horn to the player.

I broadly fall into the latter category. If an otherwise-competent player has an issue that might be rectified by switching equipment, or modifying their current horn, then I'm a proponent of making that leap. After all, it worked for me.

Oddly enough, you might even say I ALSO fall into the former category. I sold my Conn on without touching it. The new owner is extremely happy with it. And yet, my next horn, and the one after that, opened doors to me that remained stubbornly closed during my time on that vintage horn.

I was privileged to have parents who facilitated my switch to a new, top-of-the-line horn. For all of its aforementioned shortfalls, my Elkhart 88H was a solution that fit my budget, and got me 80% of the way to where I am now.

I am lucky. I had parents with deep enough pockets to get me a horn that fits me like a glove. Moreover, I've deepened my own pockets enough to expand my arsenal with an alto and a bass. The latter is a frankenhorn, the former is bone-stock. They both are excellent matches for me.

For those not as lucky, it will almost certainly be more economical to modify their existing equipment to suit their needs than it would be to cash out and upgrade to a new horn. In that case, I'd say find a competent tech, let the beer flow freely, and start cutting away.

** PS, I believe that "bone-stock" is a triple entendre. I would appreciate independent verification on the following grounds:

-The Latzsch alto I speak of does not require modification

-"Bone" in 'bone-stock' can refer to a trombone, or the common expression "bone stock"

-Bone stock is a nutritious, fortified broth, the constitution of which is not dissimilar to the sound quality of the Latzsch alto in question.

imsevimse · 2020-05-02 8:33 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]Oddly enough, you might even say I ALSO fall into the former category. I sold my Conn on without touching it. The new owner is extremely happy with it. And yet, my next horn, and the one after that, opened doors to me that remained stubbornly closed during my time on that vintage horn.[/quote]
I get you and "the new owner is extremely happy with it". I'm not saying you are wrong, but to check your theory you need to go back to that vintage horn to try now and then and see if it is still a bad match for you. Let say you try it once a year as you progress on your current horn. If that horn always gives you that same negative even though you yourself evolves and becomes a much better player then the horn is probably a dud for you. Make sure you also try it with a mouthpiece that has that special Remington taper because that makes a big difference.

The real eye opener for me was as I learned I could play the first horns I owned much better in a later state when I had evolved as a player and got more knowledge. I still have my Aebeline Conn 88h I bought 1979. It was a horn I played through my years at the Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm 84-88 and also had gigs on. Still I never felt I did well on that horn. When I graduated I worked as a music teacher for many years and bought a King 3B and abandoned both the Conn 88h and that 6BL Denis Wick mouthpiece. I turned to a Benge 12C and started to play in a lot of bigbands and I only had occatioal classical gigs where I used the King 3B and not the Conn 88h.

Some years later I picked up a bass trombone and put up a scheme with the purpose to learn to play all my different sizes of horns. Started on Bach 39 alto with Bach 12E, continued with the Conn 88h and my Wick 6BL and finished on my Yamaha 612R with a Yamaha 58. I played 15-20 minutes on each of them with no sheet music just a set of pre recorded classical songs I had programmed on tape that I played from memory. It was a couple of old songs in three different keys to fit alto, tenor and bass. One of them was Bachs air which I played on all three instruments. I also had a couple of trombone concertos on that tape. I played that tape every day for a couple of years. When I had a gig I still used my King 3B and the Benge 12C because most gigs were in big band on first and second part.

During that time with the tape my vibrato evolved and I also began to feel the music differently. I noticed I could express myself better with the horns especially after I learned to control my vibrato. It was no longer notes on a paper and that was because of all playing from memory. The discipline had served me well. The struggle with fitting a certain mouthpiece also was history and once I noticed I could go in the reverse order from bass to tenor to alto I found I had evolved because I couldn't do that as I started. I had took that as something that just needs to be one of my limitations, suddenly it wasn't.

Much later on in 2013 I became a collector and started to explore the eBay for trombones. I then learned I could handle all the horns I bought if I choose the right size of mouthpiece and accepted they needed to be played differently to sound at its best. I started to buy a lot of mouthpieces because I noticed that did a great bit of difference.

All those things; mouthpiece, pipe, material, construction do make a big difference, I agree but I think the industry really want us to think the horns out there needs to be configured to match the players because that's where the money is. If everybody started to play vintage horns then there will not be a need for new horns. If they notice the buyers are into vintage then the industry want you to rebuild your horns and put Thayers on them because that brings money to the table too.

Many horns of certain mass produced brands may have been sold with a lot of stress and needs to be taken apart, that's fine, since there were a lot of sloppy jobs done in factories where they did build horns with poor quality control and not by hands of good experienced workers. The workers put them together with a lot of wires which meant they were under stress. That is sure reason to take apart and put together, but other modifications on any old horn is questionable to me. Could be good or could be bad.

I think a lot of it is psychological. If you believe, it will help you.

Either you are an ear man or you are a gear man. I sort of have changed from a gear man to be an ear man. I still have a lot of gear but as I live by the philosophy I need to adopt my face and playing to the horn and not the other way I find myself in the ear-man category.

And that Aebeline Conn 88h I played 84-88 and did not think fit my playing is now a very good horn when I use a special ordered Hammand 12M mouthpiece that has a Remington taper. The Denis Wick 6BL had a Morse taper. It wobbles and does not fit. It is a big difference to play a mouthpiece that fits the tapers of those old horns. No one at the accademy told me about that. The Wick 6BL I bought from oneof my teachers, a very fine player who had a Bach 42. I guess he did not know the mouthpiece he sold me did not fit my old Conn 88h horn. I learned about Morse tapers and Remington tapers at the old TTF many years after when I started to read somewhere in 2004.

/Tom

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-05-02 8:51 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]Oddly enough, you might even say I ALSO fall into the former category. I sold my Conn on without touching it. The new owner is extremely happy with it. And yet, my next horn, and the one after that, opened doors to me that remained stubbornly closed during my time on that vintage horn.[/quote]
I get you and "the new owner is extremely happy with it". I'm not saying you are wrong, but to check your theory you need to go back to that vintage horn to try now and then and see if it still a bad match for you. Let say you try it once a year as you progress on your current horn.

The real eye opener for me was as I learned I could play the first horns much better later when I had evolved as a player. I still have my Aeberline Conn 88h I bought 1979. It was a horn I played through my years at the Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm 84-88 and also had gigs on. Still I never felt I did well on that horn. When I graduated I worked as a music teacher for many years and bought a King 3B and abandoned both the Conn 88h and that 6BL Denis Wick mouthpiece. I turned to a Benge 12C and started to play in a lot of bigbands and I only had occatioal classical gigs where I also used the King 3B.

Some years later I picked up a bass trombone and put up a scheme with the purpose to learn to play all my different sizes of horns. Started on Bach 39 alto with Bach 12E, continued with the Conn 88h and my Vick 6BL and finished on my Yamaha 612R with a Yamaha 58. I played 15-20 minutes on each of them with no sheet music just a set of pre recorded classical songs I had programmed on tape that I played from memory. It was a couple of old songs in three different keys to fit alto, tenor and bass. One of them was Bachs air which I played on all three instruments. I also had a couple of trombone concertos on that tape. I played that tape every day for a couple of years. When I had a gig I still used my King 3B and the Benge 12C because most gigs was on big band on first and second part.

During that time with the tape my vibrato evolved and I also began to feel the music differently. I noticed I could express myself better on the horns especially after I had learned to control my vibrato. It was no longer just a bunch of notes on a paper. The struggle with fitting a certain mouthpiece also was history and once I noticed I could go in the reverse order from bass to tenor to alto I found I had evolved because I couldn't do that as I started. I had took that as something that just needs to be one of my limitations, suddenly it wasn't.

Much later on in 2013 I became a collector and started to explore the internet. I then learned I could handle all the horns I bought if I choose the right size of mouthpiece and accepted they needed to be played differently to sound at its best. I started to buy a lot of mouthpieces because I noticed that did a great bit of difference.

All those things; mouthpiece, pipe, material, construction do make a big difference, I agree but I think the industry really want us to think the horns out there needs to be configured to match the players because that's where the money is. If everybody started to play vintage horns then there will not be a need for new horns. If they notice the buyers are into vintage then the industry want you to rebuild your horns and put Thayers on them because that brings money to the table too.

Many horns of certain mass produced brands may have been sold with a lot of stress and needs to be taken apart, that's fine, since there were a lot of sloppy jobs done in factories where they did build horns with poor qualityconyrol and not by hands of good experienced workers. The workers put them together with a lot of wires which meant they were under stress. That is sure reason to take apart and put together to remove stress, but other modifications on old horns are more questionable to me.

I think a lot of it is psychological. If you believe, it will help you. It is either way. Either you are an ear man or you are a gear man. I sort of have changed from a gear man to be an ear man. I still have a lot of gear but as I live by the philosophy I need to adopt my face and playing to the horn and not the other way I find myself in the ear-man category.

/Tom

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-05-02 1:14 p.m.

[quote="sf105"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="111528" time="1588187762" user_id="172">

I think we cannot emphasize enough the influence Denis Wick has had on the British trombone community, or even the British brass-playing community. After he smuggled in a few Conns post-WWII, the British trombone and brass scene changed. Period.[/quote]

My understanding is that the breakthrough was when the NY Phil visited shortly after the war. Wick then amplified the effect by bringing in many instruments over the years for, ahem, personal use. I suspect that there's growing variety now with all the new makers (I've seen a few Courtois amongst the college kids), and I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.
</QUOTE>

We may both be right. What I remember is the NY Phil visit was the catalyst, the event or “a ha!” moment that got London (and by extension British) trombonIsts to see and hear (a) large-bore (or “wide” bore) horns in action and appreciate their sound, and (B) a concept of section playing. Then, after Mr. Wick was able to import Conns by any means possible, the change came by replacing the small-bore Bessons, etc., with large-bore Conns.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-02 1:38 p.m.

“and (B) a concept of section playing“

?

What were they doing before the NYP showed up?

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-05-02 2:10 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]

I get you and "the new owner is extremely happy with it". I'm not saying you are wrong, but to check your theory you need to go back to that vintage horn to try now and then and see if it is still a bad match for you.

/Tom[/quote]

Some questions will never be answered. I'm not looking back.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-05-09 8:38 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“and (B) a concept of section playing“

?

What were they doing before the NYP showed up?[/quote]

I would have to re-read Wick’s Trombone Technique and various other interviews he’s had over the years, but IIRC, he described it as something like three musicians that played together but did not have good section playing.

My understanding (WARNING: OPINION AHEAD!) is that prior to the NY Phil’s visit and the use of large-bore horns (Conns and Holtons), British symphonic trombonists did not have a unified sound or a unified concept of articulation, phrasing, and balance. In other words—again, my interpretation—is that they did not always start and end notes the same way.

I haven’t any idea whether this also applied to trombone playing in brass bands, symphonic bands, or military bands.

Regardless, I would defer to a British trombonist’s view on this...

GBP · by **GBP** » 2020-05-10 1:18 a.m.

[quote="TimBrown"]Maybe a lot of others feel the way I do. I don't want to be bothered with dents, worn inner stockings, worn or shot valves, worn lacquer, misaligned slides, etc - even if a classic vintage horn might have a certain je ne sais quoi. I want to play a new, bright shiny horn. Modernized 'em if you got 'em, but I'll take a new one or two, please.[/quote]

I like more modern horns for similar reasons.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-05-10 2:43 a.m.

Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-10 12:30 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.[/quote]

What valves would you consider to preserve the "specialness" of this trombone?

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2020-05-10 1:33 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.[/quote]

Noah G picked up a Williams 10 with dual Thayers a few years ago; it’s absolutely amazing, and yes I tried to buy it.

Not sure if the story of how it got that way, but man it turned out fantastic.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-05-10 1:45 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="HawaiiTromboneGuy" post_id="112637" time="1589092988" user_id="3695">
Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.[/quote]

What valves would you consider to preserve the "specialness" of this trombone?
</QUOTE>

I’m thinking Instrument Innovations (Olsen).

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-05-10 1:48 p.m.

[quote="Jimkinkella"]<QUOTE author="HawaiiTromboneGuy" post_id="112637" time="1589092988" user_id="3695">
Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.[/quote]

Noah G picked up a Williams 10 with dual Thayers a few years ago; it’s absolutely amazing, and yes I tried to buy it.

Not sure if the story of how it got that way, but man it turned out fantastic.
</QUOTE>

I know the current owner of that horn and he says the same about about it. I’ve never been a huge fan of Thayer valves, but I’d look the other way for that horn :pant:

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2020-05-10 2:16 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]<QUOTE author="Jimkinkella" post_id="112659" time="1589132020" user_id="132">

Noah G picked up a Williams 10 with dual Thayers a few years ago; it’s absolutely amazing, and yes I tried to buy it.

Not sure if the story of how it got that way, but man it turned out fantastic.[/quote]

I know the current owner of that horn and he says the same about about it. I’ve never been a huge fan of Thayer valves, but I’d look the other way for that horn :pant:
</QUOTE>

Noah said he would pass it on to me!

He owes me now!

Fantastic horn....

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-05-10 2:34 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="112656" time="1589128204" user_id="158">

What valves would you consider to preserve the "specialness" of this trombone?[/quote]

I’m thinking Instrument Innovations (Olsen).
</QUOTE>

Don't do it... find a Meinelsmidt (?) valve. Standard rotor. The one on my 70H is as good as new with it's nickel silver core. What's up with yours ?

Chris

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-05-10 3:41 p.m.

I have to agree with Chris on this one HawaiiTromboneGuy.

The Olsen rotors are not bad by any means and they really do blow fantastic but they did change the feel and blow of my Minick (with a similar J bend tuning slide) pretty significantly. The horn does blow more open and has a wider sound. All good things... but still different. I am happy with how the horn turned out!

I would go Chris's route and find a nice "standard" rotor. Rotax would probably be the largest "modern" valve I would use. If I were to do it all over again I'd probably use Rotax.

Feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions! I've got before and after pictures of the modifications so you can see how some stuff got moved around.

slipmo · by **slipmo** » 2020-05-10 7:01 p.m.

*facepalm* I owe you one Jim!

That really is an amazing instrument. Thayer valves don't always work on vintage horns, but it really did on that one! The proportions were correct. The nice thing about that particular horn, the J bend tuning slide was integrated as much as it could have been with the thayers.

I modernized one of my 1920s Conn 66H trombones, which was already in need of repair. First I put a standard rotary on it, but have since installed a Laetzsch full flow valve, which really brought the instrument to life. In this case, I was able to "plug and play" for all intents and purposes the original wrap without serious modification.

[quote="Jimkinkella"]<QUOTE author="HawaiiTromboneGuy" post_id="112663" time="1589132911" user_id="3695">

I know the current owner of that horn and he says the same about about it. I’ve never been a huge fan of Thayer valves, but I’d look the other way for that horn :pant:[/quote]

Noah said he would pass it on to me!

He owes me now!

Fantastic horn....
</QUOTE>

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-05-10 9:41 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]I have to agree with Chris on this one HawaiiTromboneGuy.

The Olsen rotors are not bad by any means and they really do blow fantastic but they did change the feel and blow of my Minick (with a similar J bend tuning slide) pretty significantly. The horn does blow more open and has a wider sound. All good things... but still different. I am happy with how the horn turned out!

I would go Chris's route and find a nice "standard" rotor. Rotax would probably be the largest "modern" valve I would use. If I were to do it all over again I'd probably use Rotax.

Feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions! I've got before and after pictures of the modifications so you can see how some stuff got moved around.[/quote]

I appreciate the info! I’ll be sending the horn off to Benn Hannson to see what he thinks the best route would be. This is for the 10 that previously belonged to Karl DeKarske.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2024-06-08 6:28 a.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.

2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.

3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.

4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.

5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.

6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.

7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.[/quote]

Number 3 and 4 is connected. If you split the triggers you will have linkage and the string is gone or else you need to discuss this conversion with the tech. You could keep it for the thumb but for the second valve there need to be linkage and then the string is gone on the second valve. If anyone have a double valve with split triggers combined with strings in both then let me know and put a picture here. I'm interested how that looks.

I have one Elkhart Conn 73h and one Elkhart Conn 62h. I did split the triggers on the Conn 73h and it works great but not faster. The experience with the 73h means I will keep the 62h as is. I will keep the rollers between the side by side triggers because the very short throw on strings compensates for the longer throw on the split trigger mechanism. I'm sure the 73h know is a lot easier for modern players and therfore is more attractive to play, but I've noticed I am equally fast on the old side by side trigger. I have now played them next to eachother and compared and I'm not faster on the split triggers. It's about the same. A Holton tr180 is another thing because the original comes with linkage anyway.

This is my experience so I will keep the strings on my Elkhart 62h. I've done the number 6 on both horns and that is undoubtedly a good upgrade.

/Tom

GeirHorns · by **GeirHorns** » 2024-11-15 5:01 p.m.

Hi Tom,

I did on my 62H the split trigger conversion and kept he string linkage. It is fantastic short throw!

The Bending wasn't to easy, but once you done it, I think I will be faster on the next one.

Sorry I don't get how to attach a Picture via the Chat here.

But I would love to send you one, so you can get it done by some tech in your area!

Greetings Benedikt

Tatsu · by **Tatsu** » 2024-11-16 6:27 a.m.

Hello, from a high school student in Japan

I recently acquired an instrument labeled "Boosey & Hawkes Regent II". It appears to be an older instrument, but I do not know the official model number. I would like to know the model number of this model.

There is nothing on the instrument itself to indicate the model number, only the engraving "Boosey & Hawkes Regent II" on the bell. The bell is silver plated.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2024-11-16 11:45 a.m.

[quote="GeirHorns"]Hi Tom,

I did on my 62H the split trigger conversion and kept he string linkage. It is fantastic short throw!

The Bending wasn't to easy, but once you done it, I think I will be faster on the next one.

Sorry I don't get how to attach a Picture via the Chat here.

But I would love to send you one, so you can get it done by some tech in your area!

Greetings Benedikt[/quote]

Interesting! I think pictures would interest everyone here. Hope you can do it somehow.

/Tom

GeirHorns · by **GeirHorns** » 2024-11-16 5:39 p.m.

so first try for the pictures, thanks to Matt K for the tutorial video!

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