Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2020-05-18 12:23 p.m.

I got a beater king 5b with the usual yellowish epoxy laquer. With 30 years of grease, crud, limestone,whatever deposits in the tubes, especially valve section.

The usual cycle of disassempling everything, bathing in warm soap water for an hour, snaking through, filling tubes with 16% vinagre acid and a bit of salt, waiting 30 min, snaking once more, and a final soap and snake bath did only remove little of the crud. Second round did little to improve.

The remaining crud seems to be a blend of limestone, oxide and harsh old grease and oil.

So, I might try a base, pH 10 or 12, maybe, since acid does not do the job. Or bad idea? What to use, maybe strong brown soap used to clean floors? Of course, no samiak.

Any tips for stubborn crud?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-05-18 1:07 p.m.

In the states we have a product called CLR (calcium lime and rust). Commonly used on plumbing, so a trombone shouldn't be too far out of line.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://clrbrands.com/?&utm_campaign=95 ... lsrc=aw.ds">https://clrbrands.com/?&utm_campaign=9513700973&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=421637977151&utm_term=clr&adgroupid=97443643099&gclid=CjwKCAjw5Ij2BRBdEiwA0Frc9UrKNeA6wN5j-uxzOTp6_rG3a99nX-utGJQJM_DuCksVRBqi1gL2fBoCWxQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds</LINK_TEXT>

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-18 1:23 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]In the states we have a product called CLR (calcium lime and rust). Commonly used on plumbing, so a trombone shouldn't be too far out of line.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://clrbrands.com/?&utm_campaign=95 ... lsrc=aw.ds">https://clrbrands.com/?&utm_campaign=9513700973&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=421637977151&utm_term=clr&adgroupid=97443643099&gclid=CjwKCAjw5Ij2BRBdEiwA0Frc9UrKNeA6wN5j-uxzOTp6_rG3a99nX-utGJQJM_DuCksVRBqi1gL2fBoCWxQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

CLR is an acid mixture.

Ingredients:

Water Dilutent: CAS #7732-18-5 EPA Approved

Lactic Acid Chelating Agent: CAS #79-33-4. EPA Approved

Lauramine Oxide Surfactant: CAS #1643-20-5. EPA Approved

Gluconic Acid Chelating Agent: CAS #526-95-4. EPA Approved

Tripropylene Glycol n-Butyl Ether Solvent: CAS #55934-93-5. EPA Approved

Yellow No. 5 Colorent: CAS #1934-21-0. EPA Approved

Acid Blue No.1 Colorent: CAS #3844-45-9. EPA Approved

I've used this on plumbing fixtures to remove hard water deposits.

On a trombone – I expect that CLR will do a pretty good job of removing calcium / magnesium deposits, and probably will not harm your trombone if rinsed off thoroughly after brief exposure.

I yield to chemists or those more experienced in its use for better guidance.

marccromme · 2020-05-18 1:29 p.m.

Lactic acid and tripropylene, heavy stufff. Does it strip laquer?

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2020-05-18 1:31 p.m.

I don't think its the calcium deposits, but the harsh grease and oil intermined with it thats the problem....

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-05-18 3:27 p.m.

The propylene glycol may attack some lacquers, but not epoxy lacquers as used on King and Yamaha trombones. I'd worry more if it were a Bach with cellulose lacquer.

The glycol does work on tars and greases if that's your problem.

I'm surprised you couldn't clean things nicely by disassembling the valve. That's what I used to do.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-05-18 7:09 p.m.

I use CLR. It stinks, but it works.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-05-18 7:49 p.m.

Take it to a tech!!!!!

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2020-05-19 2:19 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]Take it to a tech!!!!![/quote]

No, where is the fun of that? Whenever I have a beaten trombone, I do all stuff myself and learn along. Great challenge, great fun.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-05-19 3:01 p.m.

If you get a small ultrasonic cleaner, say one for jewelry, and mix in some detergent, you would be amazed what it can do. It literally shakes off mineral deposits and oxidation, without any kind of acid agent.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-05-19 3:29 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]If you get a small ultrasonic cleaner, say one for jewelry, and mix in some detergent, you would be amazed what it can do. It literally shakes off mineral deposits and oxidation, without any kind of acid agent.[/quote]

:good: Excellent idea. Small ultrasonic cleaners seem to be widely available for less than $50. Could probably also be used for stubborn deposits in grooves of mouthpieces, etc.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-05-19 4:04 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="tbonesullivan" post_id="113671" time="1589914871" user_id="7063">
If you get a small ultrasonic cleaner, say one for jewelry, and mix in some detergent, you would be amazed what it can do. It literally shakes off mineral deposits and oxidation, without any kind of acid agent.[/quote]

:good: Excellent idea. Small ultrasonic cleaners seem to be widely available for less than $50. Could probably also be used for stubborn deposits in grooves of mouthpieces, etc.
</QUOTE>

I dunno. I bought one, it didn't do much even to a mouthpiece. I tried the aluminum foil test and it wouldn't pit.

Now, the industrial parts cleaners ones will blast off about anything. But those are expensive.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2020-05-20 10:24 p.m.

If you have stubborn lime scale in your instrument, you need to be careful with ultrasonic cleaners. When the calcium and lime deposits are really settled into the metal, the ultrasonic machines can actually turn those spots into holes in the brass tubing. We made that mistake a few times when we got new ultrasonic cleaners in a shop I worked in several years ago. The best method for very stubborn lime and calcium is a combination of acid clean plus pumice soap scrub. It may take several repetitions, but at least you will not chew a hole in the brass. Ultrasonic cleaners are not always the "be all, end all" cleaning tool.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-05-20 10:41 p.m.

OUCH. You mean it vibrated the calcium deposits enough to wear through the brass? Dang that's pretty insane. I guess if you've got massive calcium deposits, acid is probably the best way. I think phosphoric acid works on it, and that is much less likely to attack brass. In fact, I Think you end up with a nice think phosphate coating after use.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-21 12:33 a.m.

Ultrasonic will poke holes in aluminum foil but if it's doing that to brass tubing, the hole was already almost there - extremely bad corrosion or red rot.

An ultrasonic jewelry cleaner won't do anything for lime or deposits in tubing in my experience. Maybe with vinegar but not detergent.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2020-05-21 8:19 a.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]OUCH. You mean it vibrated the calcium deposits enough to wear through the brass? Dang that's pretty insane. I guess if you've got massive calcium deposits, acid is probably the best way. I ~~[color=#FF0000]~~think phosphoric acid works on it, and that is much less likely to attack brass. In fact, I Think you end up with a nice think phosphate coating after use.[/quote]

So a good soak in soda pop? :biggrin:

--Andy in OKC

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-05-21 9:12 a.m.

Coca-Cola is the only one I know with phosphoric acid. And it contains a lot of other junk I don't think helps.

Auto radiator flush contains oxalic acid. Also better for copper containing tubing.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2020-05-21 9:51 a.m.

The ultra sonic cleaners will blast through red rot in a heartbeat! So be very careful especially on older horns!!!

If it's old grease caked up, use a heavy duty degreaser such as an engine cleaner or even acetone, and then concentrate on the mineral deposits! Acids usually don't have any effect on grease & oils.

Not sure what's available in Denmark, but check with plumbers and auto mechanics especially ones that deal with radiators.

Eric

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-05-21 4:31 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Coca-Cola is the only one I know with phosphoric acid.[/quote] I think it's in pretty much all "Cola" drinks. Pepsi, RC, and Coke all have it, probably many others.

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2020-05-23 5:35 p.m.

I completely agree with Eric about de-greasing first. Sometimes multiple swabbings with denatured alcohol can remove lighter deposits of hard grease build-up.

I've cleaned out some very stubborn mineral deposits using Barkeeper's Friend Liquid (oxcalic acid) with a snake brush. Non-abrasive, and rinses clean with no residue. Sometimes it takes two or three brush/rinse/reapplication cycles, but by the third rinse the water has gone from blue/green/brown to clear. I've had my share of vintage slides that were straight and dent-free, but would barely budge; after several brush/rinse cycles with BKF, many of them turned out 8/10 or better with no further adjustments.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-24 12:02 a.m.

I think Barkeeper's Friend Liquid is a fairly new product. I have some but never thought to use it that way.

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2020-05-24 1:00 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I think Barkeeper's Friend Liquid is a fairly new product. I have some but never thought to use it that way.[/quote]

The liquid BKF has only been around for a few years. In the past I would made up a thin paste by mixing BKF powder with water, but the liquid is much more convenient. It comes in a big bottle, so it can be used liberally. Ace Hardware always has it in stock.

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2020-05-24 1:34 p.m.

[quote="Bonearzt"]If it's old grease caked up, use a heavy duty degreaser such as an engine cleaner or even acetone, and then concentrate on the mineral deposits! Acids usually don't have any effect on grease & oils.

Not sure what's available in Denmark, but check with plumbers and auto mechanics especially ones that deal with radiators.[/quote]

Excellent idea, Eric. I'll ask my auto mechanics what be uses for radiators. Great thought!

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2020-05-24 4:15 p.m.

[quote="marccromme"]<QUOTE author="Bonearzt" post_id="113870" time="1590069085" user_id="54">
If it's old grease caked up, use a heavy duty degreaser such as an engine cleaner or even acetone, and then concentrate on the mineral deposits! Acids usually don't have any effect on grease & oils.

Not sure what's available in Denmark, but check with plumbers and auto mechanics especially ones that deal with radiators.[/quote]z

Excellent idea, Eric. I'll ask my auto mechanics what be uses for radiators. Great thought!
</QUOTE>

Best of luck!

And definitely try to use the weakest concentration you can to avoid pitting the brass!!

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2020-06-02 8:07 p.m.

If you are looking for a degreaser that will take care of any grease or oil, I recommend PJ1 Super Cleaner - Industrial Grade. It makes grease fall off of metal with no impact on the metal. It is used by many mechanics and cycle shops. The only problem is that it takes off some lacquers as well. As long as you can keep it on the inside of the tubing (tricky), it will remove any grease that exists in a trombone.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-06-03 7:07 a.m.

PJ1 appears to be a combination of hydrocarbon solvents with acetone in a spray can.

Use with good ventilation and not in confined areas. Avoid breathing fumes (this can be difficult with a spray).

I suspect it will not affect cured epoxy or acrylate coatings but will probably remove cellulose lacquer.

I didn't see anything in the MSDS that would harm any metal on a trombone, but I'd be careful with any plastic or rubber parts.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-06-03 7:50 a.m.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]If you are looking for a degreaser that will take care of any grease or oil, I recommend PJ1 Super Cleaner - Industrial Grade. It makes grease fall off of metal with no impact on the metal. It is used by many mechanics and cycle shops. The only problem is that it takes off some lacquers as well. As long as you can keep it on the inside of the tubing (tricky), it will remove any grease that exists in a trombone.[/quote]

That will probably work for grease but I would think his deposits are mostly lime, and it won't touch that. He'll need a lime cleaner like CLR or toilet bowl cleaner.

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Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.