Why are earlier horns better?
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
It seems like for every manufacturer, the older the better. What makes elkhart conns so good? Why are new york bachs so much better? I mean its cool and all to have a low serial number, but does the era of horn really make that much of a difference. I havent heard the same about shires or edwards, maybe because they arent so old. I just dont understand why manufacturers cant produce the same quality horns, if not higher quality. I am just a high school student so please enlighten me
- braymond21
- Posts: 265
- Joined: Mar 18, 2019
I don't think it's so much that they're better, but different. With companies that have been around for a long time like Bach, many things change in their manufacturing and design process so there may be things about the older horns that people tend to like more than the modern horns. They're not really better, just different.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
New trombones from many manufacturers - Bach, Conn, King, Yamaha, Edwards, Getzen, Shires, Rath, Courtois, ... can be superb – often more consistent and better in many respects than any ever made before. Of course they may have different characteristics than the old artisan-crafted models, with all their "personality," that you'll see described by TromboneChat afficionados (and which are only available "used"). New trombones are typically quite a bit more expensive than these older models, making them less attractive to us collectors. Many of us are searching for bargains (only to be found in older instruments) or following dreams from long ago. But many working professional musicians – who must depend on their instruments for their income – choose to play new trombones.
Yes, some of the older favorites may have legendary quality – or quirks – but I expect that the truly great ones are few and far between. And there was a time when some of the large U.S. factories let quality slip drastically during periods of cost-cutting and labor strife, but most of those issues are now in the past. Older is NOT necessarily better.
Yes, some of the older favorites may have legendary quality – or quirks – but I expect that the truly great ones are few and far between. And there was a time when some of the large U.S. factories let quality slip drastically during periods of cost-cutting and labor strife, but most of those issues are now in the past. Older is NOT necessarily better.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Depends on the company and your definition of better.
No one thought Elkhart Conns were exceptional until McMillan bought Conn and moved production to Abilene, Texas.
Generally, the farther back you go in an company's history, the smaller it was. New York Bachs were built in a small factory, probably more along the lines of the way modern "boutique" manufacturers operate than the way modern Bach instruments are built.
There are exceptions. Modern Getzen trombones are probably the best to ever carry the name. Early Yamaha instruments aren't in the same league as current production Xenos.
No one thought Elkhart Conns were exceptional until McMillan bought Conn and moved production to Abilene, Texas.
Generally, the farther back you go in an company's history, the smaller it was. New York Bachs were built in a small factory, probably more along the lines of the way modern "boutique" manufacturers operate than the way modern Bach instruments are built.
There are exceptions. Modern Getzen trombones are probably the best to ever carry the name. Early Yamaha instruments aren't in the same league as current production Xenos.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Dang. You stole my answer. Conn was better because they were creative, worked really hard on R&D, and had a good work ethic. Then they got bought out by a publishing company who didn't know what they were doing. Original Bach trombones were all custom made. Later ones were mass produced. Still good, but not AS good. But that's not always the case. Getzen improved over time. I'd take an Edwards made right now over any Getzen made in the 1970s.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
Brass instrument manufacturer is more industrial process than artisan endeavour for the most part. Small groups or even single highly skilled individuals have, historically been more likely to produce fine instruments ... think Williams or early Bach. Large factories can make great instruments...think Conn at Elkhart .... when skill levels of workers are high and there are talented designers.
There is no simple connection between age and quality with brass instruments.
Old brass instruments become more desirable if they have a sound quality that is considered to be the present ideal. Those who's sound has fallen out of fashion are less desirable, or even not desirable at all.
Chris
There is no simple connection between age and quality with brass instruments.
Old brass instruments become more desirable if they have a sound quality that is considered to be the present ideal. Those who's sound has fallen out of fashion are less desirable, or even not desirable at all.
Chris
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I'm sorry but the 2005 88HT I have is hands down a better player than any Elkhart I've tried, especially since the slide is so ridiculously good. There are lots that I simply couldn't or can't try because of the remington leadpipe.
The Edwards 396A plays flat out better than older T350s I've tried, and the Toby Oft model 350 is also superior.
My old king 3BF from the 60s is a great horn. I love it. But I'd love to try it with a new slide.
The Edwards 396A plays flat out better than older T350s I've tried, and the Toby Oft model 350 is also superior.
My old king 3BF from the 60s is a great horn. I love it. But I'd love to try it with a new slide.
- ArbanRubank
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Feb 23, 2019
It's a thing. Who wouldn't want to own a confirmed great-playing classic Conn Elkhart in mint condition! Would it actually play better than our brand new state-of-the-art horn? Maybe. Or maybe we might think it does because we believe it has that certain elusive and mystic Ecalibur-like quality. Does the sorcerer's wand hold the magic power, or does it work because the sorcerer believes it does.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Well, it might be just our perceptions, with a bit of superstition mixed in.
But here's a thought: maybe of a 100 Conns or Kings produced back in the day, by normal variation 5 were total dogs and 5 were superstars, and over the years the good ones were played, maintained and repaired, and have survived, while the dogs and mediocre ones are sitting in closets, thrift shops, and landfills.
But here's a thought: maybe of a 100 Conns or Kings produced back in the day, by normal variation 5 were total dogs and 5 were superstars, and over the years the good ones were played, maintained and repaired, and have survived, while the dogs and mediocre ones are sitting in closets, thrift shops, and landfills.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
Sorry, I didn't make it clear in my previous post. Older classic trombones that are sought after, are sought after because of the sound quality they produce for the most part. My modern Raths are way easier to play than my old Conns and Holtons.
Some people seek out old trombones for their feel, but they are a much smaller group than the sound seeking group.
Chris
Some people seek out old trombones for their feel, but they are a much smaller group than the sound seeking group.
Chris
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="braymond21"]I don't think it's so much that they're better, but different. With companies that have been around for a long time like Bach, many things change in their manufacturing and design process so there may be things about the older horns that people tend to like more than the modern horns. They're not really better, just different.[/quote]
I'll be specific. There are some great older Bach bass trombones. Most of the newer ones are garbage due to poor workmanship. So they are really better, not just different.
I'll be specific. There are some great older Bach bass trombones. Most of the newer ones are garbage due to poor workmanship. So they are really better, not just different.
- AwesomeDad
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Mar 05, 2019
It seems that way across the board the old York tubas are sought after as well as pre war Gibson banjos the argument seems to be materials that were used can’t be replicated today. Now that’s not to say there’s not fine banjos and tubas being made today. I would think it is the same with trombones either in the manufacturing process or metallurgy used back in the day...
JJ
JJ
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Today has yesterday's knowledge, so most top line horns today are top line.
Many of yesterday's horns seem to have a sweet spot of perfect assembly and the metal has had time for the molecules.
Ultimately, a horn and a mouthpiece are tools that work well with much practice. Finding the match of the horn to your needs is a challenge. Results of that search are wild.
My new Edwards horns are incredible!
My old Bach 50 that was built in the 60's has well seasoned metal and was reassembled 40 years ago. It sounds great and plays easy. I have tried new Edwards horns and they are better. Just not better enough to spend money and give up decades of knowing how to play this horn.
So, yes you can find a horn that works from every age, but the new horns do have more known skills.
Many of yesterday's horns seem to have a sweet spot of perfect assembly and the metal has had time for the molecules.
Ultimately, a horn and a mouthpiece are tools that work well with much practice. Finding the match of the horn to your needs is a challenge. Results of that search are wild.
My new Edwards horns are incredible!
My old Bach 50 that was built in the 60's has well seasoned metal and was reassembled 40 years ago. It sounds great and plays easy. I have tried new Edwards horns and they are better. Just not better enough to spend money and give up decades of knowing how to play this horn.
So, yes you can find a horn that works from every age, but the new horns do have more known skills.
- ArbanRubank
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Feb 23, 2019
Following the "molecule" line, there are those who believe that a single-owner vintage horn of one - famous - owner is desirable because the molecules of the horn have been "set" in an especially sweet resonance. Maybe they are right! Maybe metal CAN be trained that way.
There is a popular meme: "I'll believe it when I see it". I prefer a more quantum outlook: "I'll see it when I believe it". I believe I have a truly special horn. lol
I wish I had a horn that had THE special sound of a truly great Elkhart or some such other and yet was made of the most modern and light-weight materials. I guess that is the intent of high-end copies of great horns.
There is a popular meme: "I'll believe it when I see it". I prefer a more quantum outlook: "I'll see it when I believe it". I believe I have a truly special horn. lol
I wish I had a horn that had THE special sound of a truly great Elkhart or some such other and yet was made of the most modern and light-weight materials. I guess that is the intent of high-end copies of great horns.
- bbocaner
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
There was a time when you could buy 1950s Elkhart Conn 88Hs for $500. Nobody wanted them because everybody wanted 42Bs with Thayer conversions. Tastes change.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
This group is so easy to troll. About once a week someone strolls in and asks a trigger question, and the usual characters all come back with the usual responses. It's like throwing a cat in a dog pen, and just as predictable. Ask any bass trombone mouthpiece question, or anything that pits new against old. People don't know how to separate quality from emotion, or supernatural belief from science.
There are 2 things about old horns:
1) They literally don't make 'em like that any more. If you want a horn that sounds like a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne, you have to get a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne. Why? Because they don't make 'em like that any more.
2) A lot of people like to romanticize stuff because it's old and unavailable (and they've got one).
Personally, I have old and new horns from various makers. There is new stuff that's good. There is old stuff that's bad. This will draw me some hate, I'm sure, but I don't like big Shires horns. They seem a bit sterile. I bought one, but sent it back, because it just didn't have the personality I'm used to feeling in a horn. The Shires MD+. on the other hand, is a really fantastic instrument.
Why is a 100h not a 6h? Why is the Minnick-made 100h worshiped and the Conn 100h reviled?
I don't like old Yamahas. They seem one-dimensional. But I love the 897z, and some of the basses.
I love Olds, the old ones and the later ones. Recording, P24G...
I love selective Elkhart Conns. It's the feel I grew up with, so naturally I'm attracted to that. But there were some UMI/GenII that were equally fantastic players.
I don't like Getzens. I'm still affected by the old reputation of Getzen, and haven't played enough new ones to change that perception. (I'd like to play their 508 pro horn and the smaller single bore bass)
I love the new small M&W horns in a way I wasn't such a big fan of the bigger/heavier older Greenhoes. The medium bore (525) M&W just makes me salivate uncontrollably.
I've got a late Kanstul that drew on an old Conn as inspiration, without any of the annoying quirks of old Conns. I have a feeling that now that Kanstul is defunct, their reputation will only improve and their horns will become more valuable.
The question "why is old better" I think misses the nuance of the situation. You can't reduce brass instruments qualities to just age. There's a lot more involved. Some of it is definitely emotional. Some of it has to do with "the sound in your head" coming from a different era. Maybe you just really don't like horns that are built with volume as the predominant factor, while sterilizing personality of the sound.
There are 2 things about old horns:
1) They literally don't make 'em like that any more. If you want a horn that sounds like a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne, you have to get a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne. Why? Because they don't make 'em like that any more.
2) A lot of people like to romanticize stuff because it's old and unavailable (and they've got one).
Personally, I have old and new horns from various makers. There is new stuff that's good. There is old stuff that's bad. This will draw me some hate, I'm sure, but I don't like big Shires horns. They seem a bit sterile. I bought one, but sent it back, because it just didn't have the personality I'm used to feeling in a horn. The Shires MD+. on the other hand, is a really fantastic instrument.
Why is a 100h not a 6h? Why is the Minnick-made 100h worshiped and the Conn 100h reviled?
I don't like old Yamahas. They seem one-dimensional. But I love the 897z, and some of the basses.
I love Olds, the old ones and the later ones. Recording, P24G...
I love selective Elkhart Conns. It's the feel I grew up with, so naturally I'm attracted to that. But there were some UMI/GenII that were equally fantastic players.
I don't like Getzens. I'm still affected by the old reputation of Getzen, and haven't played enough new ones to change that perception. (I'd like to play their 508 pro horn and the smaller single bore bass)
I love the new small M&W horns in a way I wasn't such a big fan of the bigger/heavier older Greenhoes. The medium bore (525) M&W just makes me salivate uncontrollably.
I've got a late Kanstul that drew on an old Conn as inspiration, without any of the annoying quirks of old Conns. I have a feeling that now that Kanstul is defunct, their reputation will only improve and their horns will become more valuable.
The question "why is old better" I think misses the nuance of the situation. You can't reduce brass instruments qualities to just age. There's a lot more involved. Some of it is definitely emotional. Some of it has to do with "the sound in your head" coming from a different era. Maybe you just really don't like horns that are built with volume as the predominant factor, while sterilizing personality of the sound.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As far as it refers to the sound of the instrument, perhaps we should altogether dispense with the term "better". That's a matter of taste and opinion. There certainly are differences, but who is to say which sound is better. Better for who? Better in what situation?
- ArbanRubank
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Feb 23, 2019
[quote="Elow"]It seems like for every manufacturer, the older the better. What makes elkhart conns so good? Why are new york bachs so much better? I mean its cool and all to have a low serial number, but does the era of horn really make that much of a difference. I havent heard the same about shires or edwards, maybe because they arent so old. I just dont understand why manufacturers cant produce the same quality horns, if not higher quality. I am just a high school student so please enlighten me[/quote]
The trick is - try to find one! I wouldn't take anyone else's word or endorsement on a particular horn being a gem - new or old - unless I had exclusive knowledge of that person; what venues they play and how they play them. Even so, if I test-drive it and love it, then it's a gem - for my use. And if I don't like it, I don't really care about it, although I may admire someone else playing it.
The trick is - try to find one! I wouldn't take anyone else's word or endorsement on a particular horn being a gem - new or old - unless I had exclusive knowledge of that person; what venues they play and how they play them. Even so, if I test-drive it and love it, then it's a gem - for my use. And if I don't like it, I don't really care about it, although I may admire someone else playing it.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
To quote Fossil: "There is no simple connection between age and quality with brass instruments.
Old brass instruments become more desirable if they have a sound quality that is considered to be the present ideal."
He's right on with that.
Old brass instruments become more desirable if they have a sound quality that is considered to be the present ideal."
He's right on with that.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="hyperbolica"]This group is so easy to troll. About once a week someone strolls in and asks a trigger question, and the usual characters all come back with the usual responses. It's like throwing a cat in a dog pen, and just as predictable. Ask any bass trombone mouthpiece question, or anything that pits new against old. People don't know how to separate quality from emotion, or supernatural belief from science.
There are 2 things about old horns:
1) They literally don't make 'em like that any more. If you want a horn that sounds like a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne, you have to get a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne. Why? Because they don't make 'em like that any more.
2) A lot of people like to romanticize stuff because it's old and unavailable (and they've got one).
Personally, I have old and new horns from various makers. There is new stuff that's good. There is old stuff that's bad. This will draw me some hate, I'm sure, but I don't like big Shires horns. They seem a bit sterile. I bought one, but sent it back, because it just didn't have the personality I'm used to feeling in a horn. The Shires MD+. on the other hand, is a really fantastic instrument.
Why is a 100h not a 6h? Why is the Minnick-made 100h worshiped and the Conn 100h reviled?
I don't like old Yamahas. They seem one-dimensional. But I love the 897z, and some of the basses.
I love Olds, the old ones and the later ones. Recording, P24G...
I love selective Elkhart Conns. It's the feel I grew up with, so naturally I'm attracted to that. But there were some UMI/GenII that were equally fantastic players.
I don't like Getzens. I'm still affected by the old reputation of Getzen, and haven't played enough new ones to change that perception. (I'd like to play their 508 pro horn and the smaller single bore bass)
I love the new small M&W horns in a way I wasn't such a big fan of the bigger/heavier older Greenhoes. The medium bore (525) M&W just makes me salivate uncontrollably.
I've got a late Kanstul that drew on an old Conn as inspiration, without any of the annoying quirks of old Conns. I have a feeling that now that Kanstul is defunct, their reputation will only improve and their horns will become more valuable.
The question "why is old better" I think misses the nuance of the situation. You can't reduce brass instruments qualities to just age. There's a lot more involved. Some of it is definitely emotional. Some of it has to do with "the sound in your head" coming from a different era. Maybe you just really don't like horns that are built with volume as the predominant factor, while sterilizing personality of the sound.[/quote]
Trolling? If one is a member here and contributes that is trolling? I agree with a lot of what you state. The original question was very broad and, yes, will solicit some the normal dumb sounding answers. While all of my instruments are older compared to some they have to have certain qualities: 1. Easy to hold. 2. I have to be able to achieve the "sound in MY HEAD" that I can live with and that fits into what I do. 3. Has to function at a very high level(slides/valves/etc). So yes I could start a thread stating why older is better for ME in most cases. And nothing anyone here could say would change my mind. :)
There are 2 things about old horns:
1) They literally don't make 'em like that any more. If you want a horn that sounds like a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne, you have to get a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne. Why? Because they don't make 'em like that any more.
2) A lot of people like to romanticize stuff because it's old and unavailable (and they've got one).
Personally, I have old and new horns from various makers. There is new stuff that's good. There is old stuff that's bad. This will draw me some hate, I'm sure, but I don't like big Shires horns. They seem a bit sterile. I bought one, but sent it back, because it just didn't have the personality I'm used to feeling in a horn. The Shires MD+. on the other hand, is a really fantastic instrument.
Why is a 100h not a 6h? Why is the Minnick-made 100h worshiped and the Conn 100h reviled?
I don't like old Yamahas. They seem one-dimensional. But I love the 897z, and some of the basses.
I love Olds, the old ones and the later ones. Recording, P24G...
I love selective Elkhart Conns. It's the feel I grew up with, so naturally I'm attracted to that. But there were some UMI/GenII that were equally fantastic players.
I don't like Getzens. I'm still affected by the old reputation of Getzen, and haven't played enough new ones to change that perception. (I'd like to play their 508 pro horn and the smaller single bore bass)
I love the new small M&W horns in a way I wasn't such a big fan of the bigger/heavier older Greenhoes. The medium bore (525) M&W just makes me salivate uncontrollably.
I've got a late Kanstul that drew on an old Conn as inspiration, without any of the annoying quirks of old Conns. I have a feeling that now that Kanstul is defunct, their reputation will only improve and their horns will become more valuable.
The question "why is old better" I think misses the nuance of the situation. You can't reduce brass instruments qualities to just age. There's a lot more involved. Some of it is definitely emotional. Some of it has to do with "the sound in your head" coming from a different era. Maybe you just really don't like horns that are built with volume as the predominant factor, while sterilizing personality of the sound.[/quote]
Trolling? If one is a member here and contributes that is trolling? I agree with a lot of what you state. The original question was very broad and, yes, will solicit some the normal dumb sounding answers. While all of my instruments are older compared to some they have to have certain qualities: 1. Easy to hold. 2. I have to be able to achieve the "sound in MY HEAD" that I can live with and that fits into what I do. 3. Has to function at a very high level(slides/valves/etc). So yes I could start a thread stating why older is better for ME in most cases. And nothing anyone here could say would change my mind. :)
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
When we compare old to new, we are probably comparing an exceptional old one we've run into with an average new one.
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
About age and molecule alignment.
Impossible to judge age change as my playing has changed more.
I have an Edwards brass bell that was cryogenicly frozen. That is supposed to mimic the same effect as age. Got a chance to play the same bell that was stock. I can tell you there is an improvement but it is small. Removing the lacquer from the bell is the same change I think. So I would think age is about the same.
The bell I have was an even trade of the old board of a bell I did not like. I did not care about the freezing and would not ever do it. But a different bell was better then the old bell.
Impossible to judge age change as my playing has changed more.
I have an Edwards brass bell that was cryogenicly frozen. That is supposed to mimic the same effect as age. Got a chance to play the same bell that was stock. I can tell you there is an improvement but it is small. Removing the lacquer from the bell is the same change I think. So I would think age is about the same.
The bell I have was an even trade of the old board of a bell I did not like. I did not care about the freezing and would not ever do it. But a different bell was better then the old bell.
- ZacharyThornton
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
They aren’t.
- Lastbone
- Posts: 56
- Joined: May 15, 2019
I expect that earlier horns are better because they were the NEW ones when we were young. I still think of my Conn 73 as the coolest, most advanced horn ever built.
- Neo_Bri
- Posts: 1342
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="bbocaner"]There was a time when you could buy 1950s Elkhart Conn 88Hs for $500. Nobody wanted them because everybody wanted 42Bs with Thayer conversions. Tastes change.[/quote]
Good point. And sometimes group-think creates fickle trends.
Good point. And sometimes group-think creates fickle trends.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="ZacharyThornton"]They aren’t.[/quote]
You say that: to you they're not. To me some are. :)
You say that: to you they're not. To me some are. :)
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="ZacharyThornton" post_id="114544" time="1590602706" user_id="109">
They aren’t.[/quote]
You say that: to you they're not. To me some are. :)
</QUOTE>
I think it's the blanket statement that's wrong, not that some older horns are great. Every Elkhart Conn is not better than every modern Conn. Not every old Bach is better than a modern one.
They aren’t.[/quote]
You say that: to you they're not. To me some are. :)
</QUOTE>
I think it's the blanket statement that's wrong, not that some older horns are great. Every Elkhart Conn is not better than every modern Conn. Not every old Bach is better than a modern one.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="Neo Bri"]<QUOTE author="bbocaner" post_id="114521" time="1590589123" user_id="206">
There was a time when you could buy 1950s Elkhart Conn 88Hs for $500. Nobody wanted them because everybody wanted 42Bs with Thayer conversions. Tastes change.[/quote]
Good point. And sometimes group-think creates fickle trends.
</QUOTE>
Ironically with current fads stock rotor and straight Bach 42 and 42B's are now in the bargain bin. With all the fancy valves out there you can pick up a amazing vintage Corp. horn for pennies compared to a brand new Bach or custom horn.
I wouldn't trade or sell that Corp. 42 I get from you for anything!
There was a time when you could buy 1950s Elkhart Conn 88Hs for $500. Nobody wanted them because everybody wanted 42Bs with Thayer conversions. Tastes change.[/quote]
Good point. And sometimes group-think creates fickle trends.
</QUOTE>
Ironically with current fads stock rotor and straight Bach 42 and 42B's are now in the bargain bin. With all the fancy valves out there you can pick up a amazing vintage Corp. horn for pennies compared to a brand new Bach or custom horn.
I wouldn't trade or sell that Corp. 42 I get from you for anything!
- stewbones43
- Posts: 333
- Joined: Oct 25, 2018
In 50 years time, will we be saying wonderful things about the trombones we are knocking today?
I thought the old ones were better to play because they had had all the duff notes blown out of them over the years!
Cheers
Stewbones43
I thought the old ones were better to play because they had had all the duff notes blown out of them over the years!
Cheers
Stewbones43
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
I would love to buy a "new" horn. But nobody makes what I want! A single rotor bass that can be pulled to E with an extra long slide for low B's without lipping.
My 72H is wearing out but I don't know where to look!
My 72H is wearing out but I don't know where to look!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
When I was doing the mouthpiece materials comparison Benn Hansson sent me 7 pieces of tubing from 2 different trombones: one new and one old. He didn't tell me which was which. And my analysis didn't tell me either. Both were identical within the limits of my X-ray Fluorescence Meter.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
The are not better.
When a manufacturer has got a good reputation and has to do changes because of businessreasons due to competition or other economical reasons then they might move their factory. They then loose all experienced workers. A group of new workers are hired but they are not as skilled and need time to learn. This causes a drop in quality The quality will be better again as the new workers learn and after a few years it will be as good as before or better. The problem is reputation has been hurt because they who had high expectations and was dissapointed told all their friends not to buy that particular brand. The reputation does not heal as fast as quality.
Many brands have had to do changes like this and that's why there are certain productionyears were horns are less valuable and are considered to be bad. The opposite is when the factory is old and the workers experienced. The experienced workers do better. Then handmade horns are usually better compared to horns made more with machines. People who know how to do an instrument by hand and has done so for many years are more skilled compared to them who just started and need machines.
/Tom
When a manufacturer has got a good reputation and has to do changes because of businessreasons due to competition or other economical reasons then they might move their factory. They then loose all experienced workers. A group of new workers are hired but they are not as skilled and need time to learn. This causes a drop in quality The quality will be better again as the new workers learn and after a few years it will be as good as before or better. The problem is reputation has been hurt because they who had high expectations and was dissapointed told all their friends not to buy that particular brand. The reputation does not heal as fast as quality.
Many brands have had to do changes like this and that's why there are certain productionyears were horns are less valuable and are considered to be bad. The opposite is when the factory is old and the workers experienced. The experienced workers do better. Then handmade horns are usually better compared to horns made more with machines. People who know how to do an instrument by hand and has done so for many years are more skilled compared to them who just started and need machines.
/Tom
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
[quote="BGuttman"]When I was doing the mouthpiece materials comparison Benn Hansson sent me 7 pieces of tubing from 2 different trombones: one new and one old. He didn't tell me which was which. And my analysis didn't tell me either. Both were identical within the limits of my X-ray Fluorescence Meter.[/quote]
I worked at King/UMI/Conn Selmer twice. Once around 1980'sh for about a year and then again from 1996 through November 2001. Back in the 1980's there was a metallurgist on staff who tested all brass coming through the doors. If it wasn't the specified alloy it was rejected. Fast forward to 1996 and that position was eliminate! Whatever was delivered was used. I can remember a 6 month stretch where the Sousa valve casing were peeling in layers like an onion! I truly hope things have changed since then...
I worked at King/UMI/Conn Selmer twice. Once around 1980'sh for about a year and then again from 1996 through November 2001. Back in the 1980's there was a metallurgist on staff who tested all brass coming through the doors. If it wasn't the specified alloy it was rejected. Fast forward to 1996 and that position was eliminate! Whatever was delivered was used. I can remember a 6 month stretch where the Sousa valve casing were peeling in layers like an onion! I truly hope things have changed since then...
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
It's like Highlander.
An older horn has absorbed the "essence" of its previous owners, its experiences, its life. A newer horn hasn't been around that long so all that horn has done is absorb the "essence " of the workers that have built the instrument at the slave wage most unskilled workers get paid.
I played one of the prototype 88Hs made for Ralph Sauer. It was pure ecstasy. I was able to channel Ralphs "essence" as i played it, transforming me from a mediocre player to a WAY better mediocre player.
Thats why older horns are better.
There can be only one!
An older horn has absorbed the "essence" of its previous owners, its experiences, its life. A newer horn hasn't been around that long so all that horn has done is absorb the "essence " of the workers that have built the instrument at the slave wage most unskilled workers get paid.
I played one of the prototype 88Hs made for Ralph Sauer. It was pure ecstasy. I was able to channel Ralphs "essence" as i played it, transforming me from a mediocre player to a WAY better mediocre player.
Thats why older horns are better.
There can be only one!
- SaigonSlide
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
[quote="Thrawn22"]It's like Highlander.
An older horn has absorbed the "essence" of its previous owners, its experiences, its life. A newer horn hasn't been around that long so all that horn has done is absorb the "essence " of the slack jawed hick or slave labor chinaman that have built the instrument at the slave wage most unskilled workers get paid.
I played one of the prototype 88Hs made for Ralph Sauer. It was pure ecstasy. I was able to channel Ralphs "essence" as i played it, transforming me from a mediocre player to a WAY better mediocre player.
Thats why older horns are better.
There can be only one![/quote]
I really hope there aren’t any members that consider themselves hicks or are Asian. Did you read your comment before posting??
On another note, I really don’t buy this magical thinking. Anyone know of any blind play tests? I imagine it would be difficult to design, but if you could I bet some answers would become clear. My guess is that a really large part of this is placebo, and hinges mainly on our own beliefs.
If you buy a pair of vintage Nike waffle racers, are you going to somehow channel Steve Prefontaines essence and run faster? No. But you’re going to have a vintage pair of Nike waffle racers.
An older horn has absorbed the "essence" of its previous owners, its experiences, its life. A newer horn hasn't been around that long so all that horn has done is absorb the "essence " of the slack jawed hick or slave labor chinaman that have built the instrument at the slave wage most unskilled workers get paid.
I played one of the prototype 88Hs made for Ralph Sauer. It was pure ecstasy. I was able to channel Ralphs "essence" as i played it, transforming me from a mediocre player to a WAY better mediocre player.
Thats why older horns are better.
There can be only one![/quote]
I really hope there aren’t any members that consider themselves hicks or are Asian. Did you read your comment before posting??
On another note, I really don’t buy this magical thinking. Anyone know of any blind play tests? I imagine it would be difficult to design, but if you could I bet some answers would become clear. My guess is that a really large part of this is placebo, and hinges mainly on our own beliefs.
If you buy a pair of vintage Nike waffle racers, are you going to somehow channel Steve Prefontaines essence and run faster? No. But you’re going to have a vintage pair of Nike waffle racers.
- fwbassbone
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Burgerbob's two replies above. Pretty much says it all.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.[/quote]
My point precisely.
My point precisely.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="Doug Elliott"]One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.[/quote]
If you look at the freely available Conn film of manufacturing at the factory, it is stressed that many families worked for Conn and many positions were handed down from father to son, so skills and techniques were preserved through the years. Indeed, to protect the passing down of jobs, I bet workers kept techniques... tricks of the trade...very much to themselves.
In Germany manufacture has been traditionally small, often a single craftsman and training long and intense ,even so, many beautiful German instruments have serious playing flaws that are just accepted as normal.... a lack of design experience many be to blame.
The combination of craftsmanship and scale of production has been a rare marriage in brass manufacture.... and the products of that marriage are prized.
Chris
If you look at the freely available Conn film of manufacturing at the factory, it is stressed that many families worked for Conn and many positions were handed down from father to son, so skills and techniques were preserved through the years. Indeed, to protect the passing down of jobs, I bet workers kept techniques... tricks of the trade...very much to themselves.
In Germany manufacture has been traditionally small, often a single craftsman and training long and intense ,even so, many beautiful German instruments have serious playing flaws that are just accepted as normal.... a lack of design experience many be to blame.
The combination of craftsmanship and scale of production has been a rare marriage in brass manufacture.... and the products of that marriage are prized.
Chris
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The wizards who knew the arcane European arts must've been resurrected in Elkhorn, WI. That team knows how to spin bells and what parts need to be tempered etc, as well.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]The wizards who knew the arcane European arts must've been resurrected in Elkhorn, WI. That team knows how to spin bells and what parts need to be tempered etc, as well.[/quote]
Elkhorn WI..... Holton moved there in 1920... Getzen are pretty long established there now and a smaller concern than many.... no surprise that good things come out of Elkhorn. Shame that Holton went. I've not played a usable Holton made in Elkhart, but the Conns now made in Elkhart seem very good indeed...odd.
Chris
Elkhorn WI..... Holton moved there in 1920... Getzen are pretty long established there now and a smaller concern than many.... no surprise that good things come out of Elkhorn. Shame that Holton went. I've not played a usable Holton made in Elkhart, but the Conns now made in Elkhart seem very good indeed...odd.
Chris
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="fwbassbone"]Burgerbob's two replies above. Pretty much says it all.[/quote]
His first post is as useless as thinking all old is better/worse than all new. Second post is what makes sense.
His first post is as useless as thinking all old is better/worse than all new. Second post is what makes sense.
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
[quote="Doug Elliott"]One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.[/quote]
This is right on the money. At King as the old guys retired the young people who replaced them didn't care about quality. They only cared about making as much money as they could on piece work. And management didn't seem to care.
The first time I worked in the King Eastlake factory in the 80's the catch phrase was "King Craftsmanship". The second time I worked there in the late 90's that catch phrase had morphed to "King Crapsmanship"!
This is right on the money. At King as the old guys retired the young people who replaced them didn't care about quality. They only cared about making as much money as they could on piece work. And management didn't seem to care.
The first time I worked in the King Eastlake factory in the 80's the catch phrase was "King Craftsmanship". The second time I worked there in the late 90's that catch phrase had morphed to "King Crapsmanship"!
- biggiesmalls
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
DJ Kennedy once asked me to play and rank six different Elkhart 88H's he had lined up on stands in his studio. After I played all six horns multiple times, I gave my opinions: one dog, two mediocre horns, two really good horns, and one that was exceptional. DJ then told me that two different pros who had recently visited his studio had played the same horns, and had ranked them more or less the same way.
There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.
There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]Large factories can make great instruments...think Conn at Elkhart .... when skill levels of workers are high and there are talented designers.[/quote]
And when management fosters an environment where those skilled workers aren't hamstrung by production quotas and those talented designers are allowed to focus on making better instruments rather than cheaper instruments.
And when management fosters an environment where those skilled workers aren't hamstrung by production quotas and those talented designers are allowed to focus on making better instruments rather than cheaper instruments.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="biggiesmalls"]DJ Kennedy once asked me to play and rank six different Elkhart 88H's he had lined up on stands in his studio. After I played all six horns multiple times, I gave my opinions: one dog, two mediocre horns, two really good horns, and one that was exceptional. DJ then told me that two different pros who had recently visited his studio had played the same horns, and had ranked them more or less the same way.
There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.[/quote]
Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...
Chris
There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.[/quote]
Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...
Chris
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="biggiesmalls" post_id="114603" time="1590672769" user_id="4364">
DJ Kennedy once asked me to play and rank six different Elkhart 88H's he had lined up on stands in his studio. After I played all six horns multiple times, I gave my opinions: one dog, two mediocre horns, two really good horns, and one that was exceptional. DJ then told me that two different pros who had recently visited his studio had played the same horns, and had ranked them more or less the same way.
There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.[/quote]
Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...
Chris
</QUOTE>
Well said!
DJ Kennedy once asked me to play and rank six different Elkhart 88H's he had lined up on stands in his studio. After I played all six horns multiple times, I gave my opinions: one dog, two mediocre horns, two really good horns, and one that was exceptional. DJ then told me that two different pros who had recently visited his studio had played the same horns, and had ranked them more or less the same way.
There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.[/quote]
Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...
Chris
</QUOTE>
Well said!
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
There are old dogs and new dogs, old gems and new gems.
Age and birthplace are no guarantee that a horn will be great!! I'm sure Antonio Stradivarius put out some kindling wood in his time.
Eric
Age and birthplace are no guarantee that a horn will be great!! I'm sure Antonio Stradivarius put out some kindling wood in his time.
Eric
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
I don't know if one can make a generalization that the older, the better when it comes to trombones. Manufacturing has evolved just as has every other human endeavor. Early Yamahas are a prime example, I believe. Their instruments from the 60's and early 70's are nothing like their Xeno models today. Other manufacturers, like Getzen-Edwards have also improved.
On the other hand, there are vintage Conns, Kings, Bachs and others that were terrific in their day, and can still bring a smile to players' faces. And I agree that there are also dogs in every era, including the present day. I remember as a new graduate student being so proud of my new Bach 42B and 50B trombones purchased around 1984. They didn't hold up very well either musically or mechanically, and I couldn't wait to ditch them, which I did.
On the other hand, the two Getzens that I bought in the late 90's turned out to be perfect for what I do, so I have had no reason to abandon them. I play them every day, and it is going on 22 years. Not everybody will agree with a horn in any era, but that is why we are individuals. I've always believed that if a player sounds great on a horn, and it feels right for them, than they have a great horn, regardless of when, or where it was made.
On the other hand, there are vintage Conns, Kings, Bachs and others that were terrific in their day, and can still bring a smile to players' faces. And I agree that there are also dogs in every era, including the present day. I remember as a new graduate student being so proud of my new Bach 42B and 50B trombones purchased around 1984. They didn't hold up very well either musically or mechanically, and I couldn't wait to ditch them, which I did.
On the other hand, the two Getzens that I bought in the late 90's turned out to be perfect for what I do, so I have had no reason to abandon them. I play them every day, and it is going on 22 years. Not everybody will agree with a horn in any era, but that is why we are individuals. I've always believed that if a player sounds great on a horn, and it feels right for them, than they have a great horn, regardless of when, or where it was made.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...[/quote]
I had Ed Solomons' Rath for a while. Very well made but I didn't get on with it, although I learned a lot. The word that came to my mind for the sound was "pasturised". That said, we know there are plenty of top-rank players who sound great on theirs and I expect they appreciate the reliability.
Meanwhile, I know of one student in London who's bought some of that Elkhart magic and, frankly, I don't think he got the best for his money.
S
I had Ed Solomons' Rath for a while. Very well made but I didn't get on with it, although I learned a lot. The word that came to my mind for the sound was "pasturised". That said, we know there are plenty of top-rank players who sound great on theirs and I expect they appreciate the reliability.
Meanwhile, I know of one student in London who's bought some of that Elkhart magic and, frankly, I don't think he got the best for his money.
S
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I`ve had horns from many different eras of different brands.
I had a 1928 Conn 78H that was pure MAGIC. (should never had let that go)
I have a 1928 Conn Eb Tuba - same thing just a stupendous instrument.
I had briefly a 1990`s era Bach 36B that was a DOG !
I have a Mount Vernon 36 that was OK, changed the leadpipe to an Edwards #2 and BINGO great horn
It`s all a crap shoot.
I`ve tried Rath`s. I really wanted to like them, NOT for me.
I`ve tried some Shires and Edwards Horns - Great Instruments , just not that much better than the horns I`ve got.
I personally like the older horns but If a newer plays better.......
I had a 1928 Conn 78H that was pure MAGIC. (should never had let that go)
I have a 1928 Conn Eb Tuba - same thing just a stupendous instrument.
I had briefly a 1990`s era Bach 36B that was a DOG !
I have a Mount Vernon 36 that was OK, changed the leadpipe to an Edwards #2 and BINGO great horn
It`s all a crap shoot.
I`ve tried Rath`s. I really wanted to like them, NOT for me.
I`ve tried some Shires and Edwards Horns - Great Instruments , just not that much better than the horns I`ve got.
I personally like the older horns but If a newer plays better.......
- Arrowhead
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Jun 07, 2018
I once got into a discussion with a repair tech (who wasn't a brass player) about older horns and briefly mentioned "cartridge brass". His answer: besides the difference in metal alloy mixture, the term "cartridge brass" can also refer to the quality of brass as well- the idea being that high quality brass from the 30's and 40's really isn't the same as today's brass. That seemed to be a good answer. Perhaps that's why older horns have their sound. That combined with the fact that the more a horn is "hand made"- maybe the better the quality? Perhaps?
Why does a Williams 6 sound like it does? And why does no modern horn play as easily as that horn? I have no idea. It was the Colonel Sanders secret recipe.
Why does a Williams 6 sound like it does? And why does no modern horn play as easily as that horn? I have no idea. It was the Colonel Sanders secret recipe.
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
The premise is flawed, so I won't dive in deep. But, consider this: time is a filter. Things made 50-100 years ago varied in quality, probably more than they do today, thanks to experience and refinements in technology.
If Bach made 100 horns in, say, 1934, a lot of them were crap. They're probably long gone. Given to a kid. Thrown off a bus. Bashed around in an Army band. But they managed to make a few gems. Those got saved and passed on.
Time is a filter. We know the best movies from 1939, but we don't know the turkeys. When you come across a playable, loved old horn, it's probably been protected for a reason. ....... But not always.
Your mileage may vary.
Sincerely,
- NY Bach #13
- Edwards 350 Thayer
- Williams Model 10
If Bach made 100 horns in, say, 1934, a lot of them were crap. They're probably long gone. Given to a kid. Thrown off a bus. Bashed around in an Army band. But they managed to make a few gems. Those got saved and passed on.
Time is a filter. We know the best movies from 1939, but we don't know the turkeys. When you come across a playable, loved old horn, it's probably been protected for a reason. ....... But not always.
Your mileage may vary.
Sincerely,
- NY Bach #13
- Edwards 350 Thayer
- Williams Model 10
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
It's possible to be too old...
An original Williams 6 in good condition will set you back a serious chunk of change ($3,000 US, maybe more). One of Earl's pre-WWII horns with similar specs? Not so much.
An original Williams 6 in good condition will set you back a serious chunk of change ($3,000 US, maybe more). One of Earl's pre-WWII horns with similar specs? Not so much.
- Anonymous
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mar 22, 2026
[quote="Cotboneman"]Early Yamahas are a prime example, I believe. Their instruments from the 60's and early 70's are nothing like their Xeno models today.[/quote]
Sorry, but I know a lot of trombone players who do not like the Xeno but the 70 and 80 horns. I am one of them..
I had a lot King 2B SilverSonic, the best one was a Silvertone from around 1936... don´t know why
Sorry, but I know a lot of trombone players who do not like the Xeno but the 70 and 80 horns. I am one of them..
I had a lot King 2B SilverSonic, the best one was a Silvertone from around 1936... don´t know why
- bcschipper
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Sep 23, 2018
Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...
Chris
Sorry, my experience is very limited. I am curious to what you mean with “(m)odern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play.” What does “easier” mean her and what makes a trombone easier to play?
(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)
On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?
- Anonymous
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mar 22, 2026
[quote="bcschipper"]
Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
[/quote]
This is very funny...thank you..made my day
Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
[/quote]
This is very funny...thank you..made my day
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="bcschipper"]Sorry, my experience is very limited. I am curious to what you mean with “(m)odern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play.” What does “easier” mean her and what makes a trombone easier to play?
(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)[/quote]
Good question! I think this could vary a bit for us, what we consider to be an easy horn to play. I have a lot of horns so I think I qualify to give my version.
Some trombones (also mouthpieces) response quicker. This means to me it takes less work to start notes on them. They also lock into a partial very easy. This means they help to steer into a desired partial even if you are not hitting the centre. The feeling is "the horn plays itself". To find such a horn is a blessing at first. The backside can be they are not as easy to color and they can also be a bit loud. The overall feeling could be they are easy to play but not fun.
What makes it easier to play? That was a tougher question. I have no clue there.
[quote="bcschipper"]On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?[/quote]
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.
[quote="bcschipper"]I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?[/quote]
The boresize has become bigger and the mouthpieces are also getting bigger. It is true you could fall in the trap and sound more colorless, but as we all know it depends on who is playing. The player has to find the color with whatever horn he plays so he does not loose the beautiful colors. I think many players play to big equipment without having a proper technique and that's why they sound colorless. I also think some players avoid the "light" in their sound because they don't want to be the ones accused of playing with a "bright" sound.
My experience is the confidence of "sound" comes after you produce a sound that sparkles and the conductor looks at you with a happy smile and wants more of you, or when you ask the conductor if you are playing to loud and he answers "I want more". It could be when you play first chair in a big band and the saxophone player in front after the gig turns around and says she/he likes your sound, or when the baritonsax player turns around and loves the support you are bringing to her/his part in unison when you are on the bass, or when the audience compliment the trombone section and says they like your lead sound or your bass trombone sound or the section sound. When this happens then you know you are on the right horn and you know you produce a good sound.
Remember YOU are the only one who never hear your own true sound. The sound that reach you will always be a mix of sound. It reaches your ears both from outside and through your body and bones. What is a big difference is also YOU never hear yourself up-front as the conductor does. You need to trust your teacher, conductor and your colleagues for sound. If they say you sound good then you do. It is possible the right mix of colors can be in your sound even if you do not hear them yourself. The opposite is also possible. You hear a good sound coming from you, but the ones in front and near you hear something else.
Early horns are not better, they are just different.
/Tom
(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)[/quote]
Good question! I think this could vary a bit for us, what we consider to be an easy horn to play. I have a lot of horns so I think I qualify to give my version.
Some trombones (also mouthpieces) response quicker. This means to me it takes less work to start notes on them. They also lock into a partial very easy. This means they help to steer into a desired partial even if you are not hitting the centre. The feeling is "the horn plays itself". To find such a horn is a blessing at first. The backside can be they are not as easy to color and they can also be a bit loud. The overall feeling could be they are easy to play but not fun.
What makes it easier to play? That was a tougher question. I have no clue there.
[quote="bcschipper"]On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?[/quote]
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.
[quote="bcschipper"]I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?[/quote]
The boresize has become bigger and the mouthpieces are also getting bigger. It is true you could fall in the trap and sound more colorless, but as we all know it depends on who is playing. The player has to find the color with whatever horn he plays so he does not loose the beautiful colors. I think many players play to big equipment without having a proper technique and that's why they sound colorless. I also think some players avoid the "light" in their sound because they don't want to be the ones accused of playing with a "bright" sound.
My experience is the confidence of "sound" comes after you produce a sound that sparkles and the conductor looks at you with a happy smile and wants more of you, or when you ask the conductor if you are playing to loud and he answers "I want more". It could be when you play first chair in a big band and the saxophone player in front after the gig turns around and says she/he likes your sound, or when the baritonsax player turns around and loves the support you are bringing to her/his part in unison when you are on the bass, or when the audience compliment the trombone section and says they like your lead sound or your bass trombone sound or the section sound. When this happens then you know you are on the right horn and you know you produce a good sound.
Remember YOU are the only one who never hear your own true sound. The sound that reach you will always be a mix of sound. It reaches your ears both from outside and through your body and bones. What is a big difference is also YOU never hear yourself up-front as the conductor does. You need to trust your teacher, conductor and your colleagues for sound. If they say you sound good then you do. It is possible the right mix of colors can be in your sound even if you do not hear them yourself. The opposite is also possible. You hear a good sound coming from you, but the ones in front and near you hear something else.
Early horns are not better, they are just different.
/Tom
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="bcschipper"]Sorry, my experience is very limited. I am curious to what you mean with “(m)odern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play.” What does “easier” mean her and what makes a trombone easier to play?
(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)[/quote]
With a lot of older horns, you get quirks, like octaves that may not be in tune, slots for each pitch that are VERY wide but shallow. So you need to train yourself harder to get the pitch you want to sound correctly. If every note responds with a very similar or somewhat linear approach, you can get used to it easier and work around different aspects of music easier, in theory at least. If you have to remember that every G takes a different air stream, it is one more thing that you need to train in to yourself to make it come out the bell effortlessly. Maybe you get a little more constrained in how a newer horn responds to your input, maybe not.
Not touching the first part here... but what are you talking about with the Ab? In tune to WHAT? Equal temperment? No thank you. Take most semi-modern horns and play that Ab in the Tuba Mirum excerpt where it lies on the horn without adjustment and thank me later. The physics do not align to equal temperment nor should they in my opinion. Of course, this depends on the ensemble you are choosing to follow, but moving away from equal temperment when possible is always a treat.
Could you post an example recording or two where there is less shaping of notes or coloring of tones? I'm not sure I understand or agree with that, at least at the highest level. At the amatuer/semi-pro level... sure, I could believe that, but I do not have any old recordings there that would be a fair comparison. For a singular comparison, sure a 1950s Bud Herseth recording sounds better than just about anybody I've heard recorded recently, but I don't think that has anything to do with the horn.
Cheers,
Andy
(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)[/quote]
With a lot of older horns, you get quirks, like octaves that may not be in tune, slots for each pitch that are VERY wide but shallow. So you need to train yourself harder to get the pitch you want to sound correctly. If every note responds with a very similar or somewhat linear approach, you can get used to it easier and work around different aspects of music easier, in theory at least. If you have to remember that every G takes a different air stream, it is one more thing that you need to train in to yourself to make it come out the bell effortlessly. Maybe you get a little more constrained in how a newer horn responds to your input, maybe not.
On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
Not touching the first part here... but what are you talking about with the Ab? In tune to WHAT? Equal temperment? No thank you. Take most semi-modern horns and play that Ab in the Tuba Mirum excerpt where it lies on the horn without adjustment and thank me later. The physics do not align to equal temperment nor should they in my opinion. Of course, this depends on the ensemble you are choosing to follow, but moving away from equal temperment when possible is always a treat.
I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?
Could you post an example recording or two where there is less shaping of notes or coloring of tones? I'm not sure I understand or agree with that, at least at the highest level. At the amatuer/semi-pro level... sure, I could believe that, but I do not have any old recordings there that would be a fair comparison. For a singular comparison, sure a 1950s Bud Herseth recording sounds better than just about anybody I've heard recorded recently, but I don't think that has anything to do with the horn.
Cheers,
Andy
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="Andre1966tr"]<QUOTE author="Cotboneman" post_id="114647" time="1590712814" user_id="3573">
Early Yamahas are a prime example, I believe. Their instruments from the 60's and early 70's are nothing like their Xeno models today.[/quote]
Sorry, but I know a lot of trombone players who do not like the Xeno but the 70 and 80 horns. I am one of them..
I had a lot King 2B SilverSonic, the best one was a Silvertone from around 1936... don´t know why
</QUOTE>
I'm simply going by my own youthful experience. I was only referring to Yamaha, not other makes. I played on some Yamahas in the 60's and perhaps early 70's when I was in high school and college. It is possible that they were not great horns, or I maybe I was simply not very good in those days (which is probably much more true). I was generally not that impressed with them. I didn't really play a Yamaha trombone again until the mid 90's. I tried some Xeno models when they were first introduced and really liked the ones I played on, but I was not looking to buy any new horns at that time.
Early Yamahas are a prime example, I believe. Their instruments from the 60's and early 70's are nothing like their Xeno models today.[/quote]
Sorry, but I know a lot of trombone players who do not like the Xeno but the 70 and 80 horns. I am one of them..
I had a lot King 2B SilverSonic, the best one was a Silvertone from around 1936... don´t know why
</QUOTE>
I'm simply going by my own youthful experience. I was only referring to Yamaha, not other makes. I played on some Yamahas in the 60's and perhaps early 70's when I was in high school and college. It is possible that they were not great horns, or I maybe I was simply not very good in those days (which is probably much more true). I was generally not that impressed with them. I didn't really play a Yamaha trombone again until the mid 90's. I tried some Xeno models when they were first introduced and really liked the ones I played on, but I was not looking to buy any new horns at that time.
- Anonymous
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mar 22, 2026
[quote="imsevimse"]
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.
[/quote]
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.
[/quote]
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
- Lastbone
- Posts: 56
- Joined: May 15, 2019
I may play vintage brass, but I gotta say, there's no vintage slide that compares to today's slides. Plus, removable lead pipes are now standard, and you can choose from a bunch of different valves and wraps. This is heaven! And, today's manufacturers serve up consistently good gear - no more looking for four copies of the same instrument to find one player. I think we are in a golden age of brass manufacture.
That said, vintage Bachs, Conns, Kings and Holtons each had a specific concept of sound, and that meant you knew what to expect when you sat in a section. With the advent of modular horns, you never know what's gonna come out of a specific Edwards or Shires, no matter how beautifully they are made. Each horn is now tailored to the individual player. To a great extent we have traded the old model of a matched section sound for more personal and individually expressive experience, and I kind of like it... It's fun!
-Warren
That said, vintage Bachs, Conns, Kings and Holtons each had a specific concept of sound, and that meant you knew what to expect when you sat in a section. With the advent of modular horns, you never know what's gonna come out of a specific Edwards or Shires, no matter how beautifully they are made. Each horn is now tailored to the individual player. To a great extent we have traded the old model of a matched section sound for more personal and individually expressive experience, and I kind of like it... It's fun!
-Warren
- bcschipper
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Sep 23, 2018
[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="bcschipper" post_id="117674" time="1593158894" user_id="3766">
On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?[/quote]
Not touching the first part here... but what are you talking about with the Ab? In tune to WHAT? Equal temperment? No thank you. Take most semi-modern horns and play that Ab in the Tuba Mirum excerpt where it lies on the horn without adjustment and thank me later. The physics do not align to equal temperment nor should they in my opinion. Of course, this depends on the ensemble you are choosing to follow, but moving away from equal temperment when possible is always a treat.
</QUOTE>
I am not sure I understand your remark on the Tuba mirum. Most play the Ab in third in the Tuba mirum on the (semi-)modern instruments. I play it in 1st totally in tune. My Bb above Ab is sharp compared to all partials below and above but I rather have something sharp in 1st position than flat. Other partials line up beautifully. I think all romantic concertinos are much better to play when as on romantic trombone you can play Ab in 1st. Not sure why this "romantic" tradition got lost with the American trombone design.
Given the physics of the trombone, I rather have Bb sharp than Ab flat. It simply gives you more flexibility, not just purely in terms of positions but also in terms of colors that come with different positions. And it is simply nice to have a usable complete overtone series for each position even just for warm-ups and flexibility studies.
Could you post an example recording or two where there is less shaping of notes or coloring of tones? I'm not sure I understand or agree with that, at least at the highest level. At the amatuer/semi-pro level... sure, I could believe that, but I do not have any old recordings there that would be a fair comparison. For a singular comparison, sure a 1950s Bud Herseth recording sounds better than just about anybody I've heard recorded recently, but I don't think that has anything to do with the horn.
</QUOTE>
Take any recordings of the David concertino on Youtube. In my opinion, the best is by Juergen Heinl. Much more colorful and note shaping than the others.
The oldest recording of solo trombone I am aware of is Joseph Serafin Alschausky with the Bluethner Orchestra Berlin from somewhere around 1910-1912. He plays his own composition. Even though the quality of old recordings is quite bad, it is very nice playing. The big range between dark and bright colors is very unlike today's playing.
I don't know Bud Herseth but I will look him up. Thanks.
On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?[/quote]
Not touching the first part here... but what are you talking about with the Ab? In tune to WHAT? Equal temperment? No thank you. Take most semi-modern horns and play that Ab in the Tuba Mirum excerpt where it lies on the horn without adjustment and thank me later. The physics do not align to equal temperment nor should they in my opinion. Of course, this depends on the ensemble you are choosing to follow, but moving away from equal temperment when possible is always a treat.
</QUOTE>
I am not sure I understand your remark on the Tuba mirum. Most play the Ab in third in the Tuba mirum on the (semi-)modern instruments. I play it in 1st totally in tune. My Bb above Ab is sharp compared to all partials below and above but I rather have something sharp in 1st position than flat. Other partials line up beautifully. I think all romantic concertinos are much better to play when as on romantic trombone you can play Ab in 1st. Not sure why this "romantic" tradition got lost with the American trombone design.
Given the physics of the trombone, I rather have Bb sharp than Ab flat. It simply gives you more flexibility, not just purely in terms of positions but also in terms of colors that come with different positions. And it is simply nice to have a usable complete overtone series for each position even just for warm-ups and flexibility studies.
<QUOTE>
I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?
Could you post an example recording or two where there is less shaping of notes or coloring of tones? I'm not sure I understand or agree with that, at least at the highest level. At the amatuer/semi-pro level... sure, I could believe that, but I do not have any old recordings there that would be a fair comparison. For a singular comparison, sure a 1950s Bud Herseth recording sounds better than just about anybody I've heard recorded recently, but I don't think that has anything to do with the horn.
</QUOTE>
Take any recordings of the David concertino on Youtube. In my opinion, the best is by Juergen Heinl. Much more colorful and note shaping than the others.
The oldest recording of solo trombone I am aware of is Joseph Serafin Alschausky with the Bluethner Orchestra Berlin from somewhere around 1910-1912. He plays his own composition. Even though the quality of old recordings is quite bad, it is very nice playing. The big range between dark and bright colors is very unlike today's playing.
I don't know Bud Herseth but I will look him up. Thanks.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="bcschipper"]...
I don't know Bud Herseth but I will look him up. Thanks.[/quote]
Adolph "Bud" Herseth was Principal Trumpet of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948 to 2001. A remarkable career.
I don't know Bud Herseth but I will look him up. Thanks.[/quote]
Adolph "Bud" Herseth was Principal Trumpet of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948 to 2001. A remarkable career.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I think FOSSIL said it best: everyone has their own sound, the trick is to find a horn that matches it.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
[quote="Andre1966tr"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="117677" time="1593164145" user_id="3173">
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
[/quote]
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
</QUOTE>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassa ... l#spectrum">https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#spectrum</LINK_TEXT>
Since the partials lining up in a trombone is a result of the bore profile, it is posslible to change the way the partials line up. That is why the partials on diffent trombones line up differntly. If you make the bore profile very different from what is typicaly trombone, we can have very differnt lineing ups. Theoreticaly it is possible to make a horn with all notes on the first position lined up with an intune Ab. But I believe that horn would be a catastrofy.
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
[/quote]
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
</QUOTE>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassa ... l#spectrum">https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#spectrum</LINK_TEXT>
Since the partials lining up in a trombone is a result of the bore profile, it is posslible to change the way the partials line up. That is why the partials on diffent trombones line up differntly. If you make the bore profile very different from what is typicaly trombone, we can have very differnt lineing ups. Theoreticaly it is possible to make a horn with all notes on the first position lined up with an intune Ab. But I believe that horn would be a catastrofy.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Andre1966tr"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="117677" time="1593164145" user_id="3173">
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.
[/quote]
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
</QUOTE>
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.
Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?
I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.
[/quote]
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
</QUOTE>
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
Trombones made in the 19th centuary have better slides, valves, are more in tune (whatever that is) actually in that sence better trombones. Trombones made i 18th centuary may have not so good slides, not so good valves, may are more out of tune (well..). But they sound different. That is not better or worse, but if you like the sound...
- Anonymous
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mar 22, 2026
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Andre1966tr" post_id="117732" time="1593205175" user_id="7025">
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..[/quote]
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
</QUOTE>
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..[/quote]
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
</QUOTE>
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Andre1966tr"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="117886" time="1593340529" user_id="3642">
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.[/quote]
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
</QUOTE>
I think Harrison refers to a special technique in "tuning" when it comes to tuning a piano.
There is a technique I've heard of that applies to tuning a piano where you streach the octaves to make it sound better. In that case the octaves willl not be perfectly in tune. I'm no piano technician but I've tried to tune a piano. It is hard to listen and make it just enough out of tune which it has to be if you are going to be able to play all keys. The streach of octaves came up when I investigated the matter of "tuning a piano" and the technique is only applied to pianos not to grand pianos. I don't know why.
/Toml
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.[/quote]
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
</QUOTE>
I think Harrison refers to a special technique in "tuning" when it comes to tuning a piano.
There is a technique I've heard of that applies to tuning a piano where you streach the octaves to make it sound better. In that case the octaves willl not be perfectly in tune. I'm no piano technician but I've tried to tune a piano. It is hard to listen and make it just enough out of tune which it has to be if you are going to be able to play all keys. The streach of octaves came up when I investigated the matter of "tuning a piano" and the technique is only applied to pianos not to grand pianos. I don't know why.
/Toml
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Stretched octaves just sound better even if they're not mathematically "correct.". Tuning is always relative to what else you're hearing and what "sounds good.". You wouldn't play mathematically correct just intonation if you're playing with a piano - or really in virtually any situation, because it doesn't fit.
Also the harmonic series of a brass instruments is manufactured by the design of the various tapers and flares, it's never perfect, but a series of compromises chosen by the designer.
Also the harmonic series of a brass instruments is manufactured by the design of the various tapers and flares, it's never perfect, but a series of compromises chosen by the designer.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Andre1966tr"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="117886" time="1593340529" user_id="3642">
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.[/quote]
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
</QUOTE>
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning
I am a trombonist and I tell you that the octaves on a piano are not divided into 12 equal tones.
Also, that ... there is no 1st position ... there is only Zool. :)
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??
What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...
12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.[/quote]
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
</QUOTE>
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning
I am a trombonist and I tell you that the octaves on a piano are not divided into 12 equal tones.
Also, that ... there is no 1st position ... there is only Zool. :)
- Bach42t
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Aug 11, 2018
[quote="bigbandbone"]This is right on the money. At King as the old guys retired the young people who replaced them didn't care about quality. They only cared about making as much money as they could on piece work. And management didn't seem to care.
The first time I worked in the King Eastlake factory in the 80's the catch phrase was "King Craftsmanship". The second time I worked there in the late 90's that catch phrase had morphed to "King Crapsmanship"![/quote]
Well, that is revealing. If it was King Crapsmanship in the late 90's I wonder what the slogan is today???
Maybe it's just "blank" since nothing is printed on the King shipping boxes today.
Folks, I have said here before and I will say it again loud and proud:
As soon as King can get out from under Conn-Selmer umbrella (which it never will) and go the boutique realm then it can be made great again.
Then start making great models too with existing improved COTS valve sections married to classic models like 6B, 7B, with sterling bells....
A pipe dream I know.
The first time I worked in the King Eastlake factory in the 80's the catch phrase was "King Craftsmanship". The second time I worked there in the late 90's that catch phrase had morphed to "King Crapsmanship"![/quote]
Well, that is revealing. If it was King Crapsmanship in the late 90's I wonder what the slogan is today???
Maybe it's just "blank" since nothing is printed on the King shipping boxes today.
Folks, I have said here before and I will say it again loud and proud:
As soon as King can get out from under Conn-Selmer umbrella (which it never will) and go the boutique realm then it can be made great again.
Then start making great models too with existing improved COTS valve sections married to classic models like 6B, 7B, with sterling bells....
A pipe dream I know.