Looking for info on the BAC Trombone.

Mrgrzesk · by **Mrgrzesk** » 2018-07-16 2:51 p.m.

Hello,

I have been doing some research and came across BAC (best American craftsman) trombones. I am interested in the San Francisco model- it’s a part of their artist series. 2400.00. If anyone has any experience with this or other instruments from them please comment. The look very nice and seem to have a few good reviews online- but not much info. Thanks !

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2018-07-16 4:12 p.m.

Oh boy. You're probably going to get some really interesting posts on this. Personally, I have a bit of a problem with them as they would never bother to return my calls or emails about a horn I had of theirs...and I've heard too many stories from reliable sources to consider them trustworthy.

Mrgrzesk · by **Mrgrzesk** » 2018-07-16 5:25 p.m.

Oh boy. Thanks for the message. Do you mind if I ask what other types of issues you’re having with them? They responded to my email right away but simply reiterated what was written on their website. Any information is appreciated. I really like the look of the horn but I am a little concerned, especially for $2400

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-07-16 5:37 p.m.

There were a number of threads on the TTF about them. I'm not sure if they made it into the archives here or not. The reviews were very mixed with a number of people who were immensely satisfied with them and others who were... not.

I will caution against gaining a perception of them based on something at a convention or of someone's impression at a convention. Particularly when Mike et al. weren't present. E.g. WWBW always seems to have a few of these that they keep in pretty poor shape. I've played horns that were actually owned by people that were very good instruments. Note, however, that these were the refurbished/worked on existing models (King 3Bs and the like), not full BAC horns. To the best of my knowledge, I've never known anyone who had a full BAC while I was gigging with them but I've known a number of people who have had work done by them. Possibly more than might be realized as they don't always do the loopy counterweight, but frequently do.

Specs wise, the horn you're interested in seems pretty straightforward. I really don't like their horns appearances... looks quite goofy to me... but I know others really dig the way they look and I too have some horns that are, admittedly, fairly silly looking. So if you're concerned about resale if you don't like it or something, that could potentially be a consideration. They do have some horns that are either gimmikcy or really creative (like the steel bell flares). This doesn't seem to be one of those horns but for some I might also hesitate to buy for the same reason: potential difficulty in reselling. (And maybe extra cost for no actual benefit, but I don't know that to be the case one way or another so I fully reserve judgment in that respect).

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2018-07-16 5:37 p.m.

They are very active on FB. You could probably find some people on there that have experience with their horns. I think it's cool that they seem to think out of the box a bit with some of their designs. But I have never played one of the horns.

bimmerman · by **bimmerman** » 2018-07-16 6:18 p.m.

I would want to try before buying, much more so than I would with more benchmark brands.

With the more mainstream horns, you have a better idea of what you're going to get from the horn with respect to intonation, response, sound, and where they might fit in with a band. Eg, Kings have relatively out of tune partials relative to positions but have great projection and rich sound (and a 3rd pos Bb), Bachs have relatively in-tune partials and not as great projection with a denser sound (and no 3rd pos Bb), etc etc. These are wildly general statements, and individual horns vary a lot, but there's a trend. You buy a 2B or 16 or 6H and you have a pretty good idea how it SHOULD behave if it's a good one, and you know good ones are out there.

The BAC stuff is fairly new and uncommon. Could be good horns, could not, but without trying them, I wouldn't be interested. Same with any boutique horn, really. They're good horns, but they're more personalized/able than the standard 3 jazz trombone designs, so until you play them you don't know what you're getting.

My 2c on the matter, anyway.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2018-07-16 10:38 p.m.

I work with a guy that plays a BAC full time. He loves it and sounds great on it! I know another monster player that gave up a Rath and and Edwards to play an Elliot Mason horn full time.

I've played a couple of their horns, including a bass. They were pretty good.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-07-17 1:34 a.m.

Neo Bri's impression is similar to the one I have. Having seen all the trombone threads and knowing a couple of cats encounters with them from the tromboneforums it raises some red flags for me.

Combine that with the significant wait time and downpayment you have to pay to get on the wait list, I'd be hesitant to buy a horn sight unseen from them.

Some of their horns really do play well though. It definitely seems like a crap shoot (or at least in the past) if you get a good one or not. Considering you can pick up a brand new custom Lawler or used custom Rath or Shires for a fraction of the cost I would go that route instead.

Burgerbob when did you try one of their basses? I know there are only a handful floating around... did they have one at NAMM? Their newest bass actually intrigues me a bit, looks quite a bit lighter then their first horn. Their first bass had a ridiculous amount of bracing and a strange layout for the valves...

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2018-07-17 4:37 a.m.

[quote="bimmerman"]Bachs have relatively in-tune partials and not as great projection with a denser sound and no 3rd pos Bb[/quote]

I'll never understand how Bach thought that was ok..

Vegastokc · by **Vegastokc** » 2018-07-17 11:14 a.m.

Since I live in KC, I sort of fell obligated to throw in my $0.02.

To be honest, I really do not know much more than what has already been said.

BAC has a good reputation in town (and around the country) for repairs.

Their retail shop is all the way cross town for me, so haven't had a chance to visit

The factory, however, is in the downtown historic Jazz District. Apparently they have a museum and give tours with appointment. Looking to see if I can convince my kids band director to schedule a field trip that I can chaperone. :biggrin:

I am curious to try them out especially since I am in the market for an F-attachment. It is my understanding that only the Custom line is completely handmade in KC. All other horns from the pro level Artist down are Chinese imports fine tuned in KC factory upon arrival. That is not necessarily a bad thing since Jupiter and Wessex are also Chinese imports that have decent reputations for quality.

There is a Windy City model currently for sale on craigslist KC: <LINK_TEXT text="https://kansascity.craigslist.org/msg/d ... 22103.html">https://kansascity.craigslist.org/msg/d/bac-windy-city-trombone/6640822103.html</LINK_TEXT>

Have not seen too many on ebay or craigslist lately.

Mrgrzesk · by **Mrgrzesk** » 2018-07-17 12:43 p.m.

Thanks for all the responses, I wasn’t sure if these horns had some kind of secret following, they been around for a few years anyway so I thought if people were buying them I would get some kind of feedback. Either good or not. I guess we will find out, thanks again for all the replies

Gribnes · by **Gribnes** » 2018-07-18 7:53 a.m.

I tried a few BAC at the ITF this last week. A one off dual .525 -.547 straight configuration commanded my attention. I went around the room to get a sense of comparison as best as I could. The BAC had more core and response than any other by far. It has a single bell brace instead of the usual two. I suspect that is one reason amongst many that the horn is so alive. My current go to is a 1929 Conn 14H TIS. The Conn has more rich center focused sound than any horn I have ever owned. This BAC stands next to that. Even though the 14H has a pancake valve section it is close to the aliveness of the BAC. I visited with Mike at BAC to thank him for the fabulous job they did on repairing the slide on the 14H when it was dinged in shipping recently.

This BAC dual bore could go either way for legit/commercial. I played it with a Hammond 11 small shank. KHammonds states this is a 4G Bach equivalent but feels far easier to me.

I inquired further about adding an optional f valve as the 1929 14H tubing/valve are no match for modern generous tube/rotor configurations. I was informed it could be done but either in fixed or convertible the horn would not be as open by comparison, and that is where this particular horn shines. Additionally adding a valve, either fixed or convertible adds nearly 2/3 cost as well.

Bottom line is two thumbs up..

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-07-18 9:22 a.m.

I can understand the 525/57. It's definitely among my favorite combinations of components. I have one for my sort-of-Conn88 style Shires setup that I have and I totally adore it.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2018-07-18 9:53 a.m.

I'd avoid. I had a terrible experience with them both on what should have been very simple repairs and with a custom instrument. I have no doubt that he and his team are capable of making nice stuff, but I also know that their ethics and customer service skills leave much to be desired.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-07-22 9:01 a.m.

I had them do repair/minor custom work for me. Price was fair, horn plays well and work was pretty good. There was a couple of small things in the finish i thought could have been done a little better, but i should also say I nit pick things, so I'm not sure everyone would agree with me. Overall it was a positive experience.

chunk · by **chunk** » 2018-07-26 8:48 p.m.

[quote="bbocaner"]I'd avoid. I had a terrible experience with them both on what should have been very simple repairs and with a custom instrument. I have no doubt that he and his team are capable of making nice stuff, but I also know that their ethics and customer service skills leave much to be desired.[/quote]

Ethics are probably my biggest issue, with what I know. You don't claim things that I know he has claimed to me and I know he claimed to someone else.

If someone asked, I could go into detail. But I'd rather keep it at that without prodding.

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2018-07-27 1:52 p.m.

bimmerman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:18 pm

Bachs have relatively in-tune partials and not as great projection with a denser sound and no 3rd pos Bb

I beg to differ with you on this. I have 2 bach 12`s, 16MG, 36, 42G and 42BO and all have solid 3rd position Bb`s

and I`ve never had a problem with projection.

Driswood · by **Driswood** » 2018-08-10 9:14 a.m.

[quote="dukesboneman"]<QUOTE>bimmerman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:18 pm

Bachs have relatively in-tune partials and not as great projection with a denser sound and no 3rd pos Bb[/quote]

I beg to differ with you on this. I have 2 bach 12`s, 16MG, 36, 42G and 42BO and all have solid 3rd position Bb`s

and I`ve never had a problem with projection.
</QUOTE>

Your 12 nails Bb in third. I had a 1985 16M that wouldn't lock in at all. It never worked for me.

UNTIL I put a counterweight on it. Wow. Suddenly, the Bb worked. Not as well as the 5H or 2B I played before it, or my 6H I play now, but it was finally usable.

I have heard that some folks have trouble with Bb in third on the smaller Bachs, but never a problem with a 36 or 42. My 34B was solid as a rock in third.

Mrgrzesk · by **Mrgrzesk** » 2018-12-15 5:56 a.m.

Well, I ended up getting a really good deal on a San Francisco model with the F attachment and I will give you my experience with it so far.

I feel that the instrument is well-built, going over it with a fine tooth comb every joint is solid and clean. the bell has lots of engraving on it, and is constructed of rose brass. Slide is nickel, seems very fast, So far I like it, it has a nice sound and plays well. My concerns- It’s a short list, but concerning none the less. First, I noticed that I was getting strange sound out of the horn, mind you I purchased this from someone brand new. I took apart the horn and gave it a good cleaning and noticed that the inside of the slide was fairly dirty and loaded with compound or something from manufacturing. I ended up using a rifle cleaning rod with patches to get it clean. I noticed that the entire horn was like this. I ended up taking it to a shop to have an ultrasonic cleaned lubricated and adjusted. Now that the horn has been serviced I find it very enjoyable to play, and receive lots of compliments on it’s appearance and sound. The case that came with was less than desirable. It was made by a aftermarket case manufacturer from China and just generally doesn’t look that nice to me. (I was well constructed, just ugly imho) They could have included a ProTec Or better quality case with it, especially for the full retail price. I ended up just tossing it and buying a ProPac case

As far as the company goes, they were more than willing to take it from me and address any problems I had for free, which was pretty nice. I didn’t really want to go through the hassle of sending it through the mail and waiting for it.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2018-12-18 3:59 p.m.

I've known Mike since The ITF in Texas which was soon after he started the company. He has always been above board and straight with me. A genuine good guy. His trombones can be unique and not always everyones cup of tea but thats the whole point, you get something unique a horn that makes a statement about you, I dont have a horn of his by the way... just saying he's a good guy and if pressure of business is such that there have been one or two slip ups mentioned here in PR - thats part of them too... they are pretty busy so it cant be bad. Happy to vouch for them... Doug

skaskaster · by **skaskaster** » 2019-08-19 5:30 a.m.

Guys, i need a little advice - I'm planning to buy a small bore bone (0.500") in future, and, after a small reserche, i think i have these options - to buy BAC trombone from Artist line ( the Kansas or the LA one), a rath r100, or the used vintage bach bone from brassexchange or the the hornguys. From one side I want to buy a vintage horn, because i like these bones from the past that have history and soul of time in them, from the other side - i want a new horn that is buffed with these "new era technology and craftsmanship". The one and only difficulty is that i don't have an opprotunity to "try before buy" way because i live very far away from these countries).

After last news when kanstul factory is closed and Mike from BAC bought the equipment from them, to build his own horns i am interested into BAC, but.. we all know that most companies making their low and middle-end horns in china or taiwain (like Bach and Rath r100) and only custom made horns are made in their main factory.

So I want to know if Artist line of BAC bones is made in USA or in China?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-08-19 12:39 p.m.

This may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the artist line were made in China.

I would probably skip a Bach 12 for Ska as well, not my first choice for that genre.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2019-08-19 2:30 p.m.

[quote="skaskaster"]So I want to know if Artist line of BAC bones is made in USA or in China?[/quote]

From the FAQ on their web site:

Artist Series Instruments are designed by B.A.C. Craftsmen in Kansas City, and produced to our specifications in the Beijing, and Tianjin Region of China.

That's a lot of money for a Chinese instrument.

fwbassbone · by **fwbassbone** » 2019-08-23 2:31 p.m.

I played a bass at ITF a few weeks ago and it was a good horn. I wouldn't trade it for my Greenhoe or my Edwards B502 but it did play fine.

mfellows821 · by **mfellows821** » 2019-08-23 3:56 p.m.

I have a problem with a company called Best American Craftsmen selling horns made in China. I bought a used New Orleans model a couple years ago and it was simply not well made or fine tuned. I had my technician make it as good as it could be and I sold it. I contacted Mr Corrigan and he was very apologetic and offered to fix it if I sent it to him. That to me was not the point.

I think he is a small businessman struggling to stay afloat in a very difficult industry. If he could survive making only his custom horns, my impression might be different. It might have been a better idea to sell the Chinese horns under a different name than Best American Craftsmen.

Schlitz · 2019-08-23 4:53 p.m.

Trevorspaulding376 · by **Trevorspaulding376** » 2019-08-23 7:48 p.m.

Ok I’m going to defend them , a lot of hate here. Yes artist line is Chinese and no I wouldn’t buy one but his custom horns are great. The custom 6 I had made is quite simply the best horn I’ve ever played. Have an Edwards , had a shires q, Bach 12, 16ms, 3bs, etc etc but the custom 6 I have is truly a work of art and a great player.

Rath does the same Chinese thing with their 00 series.

I can’t speak for when Mike first started out , saw along of negative feedback then and delivery times etc but my custom horn came right around when they estimated it would be done and is an awesome horn fwiw

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2019-08-24 8:56 p.m.

I've played quite a few BAC horns of all varieties and have yet to play one that I liked. But I have played with a good number of players that used them and loved them so it's probably just me. I rarely find a tenor from any brand that I like, so... :idk:

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2020-10-17 12:05 p.m.

I've contacted B.A.C. twice in the last 6 months about making me a alternate carbon fiber slide for my Williams, and both times nobody ever got back to me. It's a shame, but this customer service profile seems common place for 'small' custom trombone manufacturers (several others excuse themselves in the same way), but the same is not true of the trumpet manufacturers; I wonder why that is. Anyway, having said that, I suppose this is preferable to them taking my money and then ignoring me after the fact; which this thread suggests also happens at B.A.C., so, I guess what I'm trying to say is...thank you B.A.C.!?

Johnstad · by **Johnstad** » 2020-10-17 12:30 p.m.

I can speak to their craftsmanship as they took on a project to completely rebuild my Kanstul Contra's outer slide. New tubes, everything. Fantastic work. There is a pride and attention to detail...at least that's impression I was left with.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-17 8:00 p.m.

BAC is for vanity projects, right? A friend fiercely defends his BAC trumpet even after some of the braces broke off when it was brand new.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-10-17 8:34 p.m.

BAC is a quandary... I'd dismiss them entirely if I didn't have MONSTER player friends that loved their horns more than anything else. Players that know what they are talking about. :idk:

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-17 11:01 p.m.

The Elliot Mason prototype jazz horn I tried, that was built for the man himself and bought by one of his students after the newer models came out, was INCREDIBLE. I see they are selling some sort of knock off that is called the Elliot Mason model but clearly is a different product and sold through some rent to own program -- at least it was a few years ago.

I think that maybe their "Best American Craftsmen" do the work on instruments for important customers, but their other work is ...

FWIW, have you seen the horn they built for Christopher Bill?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-10-17 11:24 p.m.

The BAC aesthetic does nothing for me... but it certainly works for some.

One of my friends with a BAC has an Elliot Mason horn and sounds godly on it.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-10-18 12:32 a.m.

I'm not the most well versed, but I tried a few BAC horns at Midwest Clinic a while back, and I'm not sure if this is because I tried the wrong ones but like...

They were alright, but I didn't think they could do anything my 18H or 77H couldn't do at least almost as good. They're the last manufacturer I know putting copper bells on trombones, but I feel like you could get something, although less stylish, that is as good or a better player for less money.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2020-10-24 8:59 p.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]I've contacted B.A.C. twice in the last 6 months about making me a alternate carbon fiber slide for my Williams, and both times nobody ever got back to me. It's a shame, but this customer service profile seems common place for 'small' custom trombone manufacturers (several others excuse themselves in the same way), but the same is not true of the trumpet manufacturers; I wonder why that is. Anyway, having said that, I suppose this is preferable to them taking my money and then ignoring me after the fact; which this thread suggests also happens at B.A.C., so, I guess what I'm trying to say is...thank you B.A.C.!?[/quote]

Well, someone from B.A.C. finally got back to me; though not before I sent them another email complaining about their lack of initial response. Actually, it was the next day, and the case was that 2 people got back to me (one of whom was Chris) independently, on the 'same' day. The claim is that they are/were having some kind of service, or was it 'server' problems or something. I'm not sure they amount to any difference in practice. Anyway, their responses were both polite, professional and thorough. They seem...keen, and were not at all put off by a request for 'actual' custom work that goes beyond aesthetic consideration.

My experience is that many places claim to do custom jobs, but balk when you actually try to secure service, recommending instead that you consider one of their off the shelf products, and then ultimately demurring from doing the work by saying that they are currently too busy to take it on. I have not yet replied, and you are likely more important than I in the trombone community, but the truth is that I have had equally poor service everywhere (including all of the favorite places loved by this forum) when I have tried to get real 'custom' work done. Its a service 'thing'. Businesses intentionally propose friendliness in lieu of service, because pseudo retail friendship cost them nothing beyond the galling moment of having to pander to you, in the hope that it win's them everything as they expect their 'friendship' to secure all measure of immunity and impunity from your future communications, attacks, and disappointments going forward.

Retail friendship is truly a one way street. What shocks me is that so many people are fooled by this bait and switch. It is not a privilege to buy a product for full retail from any vendor. I guess its not surprising

that people are so easily quieted into submission in a world where people actively pursue both want and 'like' under the guise of 'friending'. For my part, I would rather that I not make a new fake friend (I don't even need retailers to be polite, that's the first step on a slippery slope, just efficient), and that I get the service that I have paid for. I warned Chris that I am not a baseball fan, so going forward... two strikes is my limit.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-10-24 9:21 p.m.

Sometimes a custom job cannot be quoted in advance, or may involve a lot of research on the part of the vendor. I would not be put off if a vendor told me to go elsewhere for a custom job because he felt it was beyond his area of expertise, or would be more trouble than he could reasonably charge me for.

As far as I know, BAC doesn't build carbon fiber slides. There are two other folks who do. Maybe BAC would like to get into that business, but maybe not.

If I was a custom shop and was up to my eyeballs in work I probably wouldn't be interested in taking on work that is outside of my core competency. On the other hand, if I was interested in getting into that business I might take on such a project even if I lose money on it.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2020-10-25 3:41 p.m.

Hi,

Thanks for posting, because it caused me to realize that I had accidentally referred to Mike Corrigan as 'Chris' for some reason. Sorry Mike!

Actually, B.A.C 'is' building carbon fiber slides now; though I don't know by what means they are sourcing the materials. Additionally, John Duda is there, which is a plus for Williams owners.

As for custom builds being 'difficult' to quote on, I suggest that that any business that has a difficult time quoting custom work is not really set up 'for' custom work. Choosing a finish or brass type is not custom work.

Tim

mahlertwo · by **mahlertwo** » 2020-10-26 12:32 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]FWIW, have you seen the horn they built for Christopher Bill?

[/quote]

I honestly can't tell whether you're impressed or horrified by it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-26 2:37 a.m.

[quote="mahlertwo"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="128063" time="1602990097" user_id="3642">
FWIW, have you seen the horn they built for Christopher Bill?

[/quote]

I honestly can't tell whether you're impressed or horrified by it.
</QUOTE>

Oh, no. I was trying to keep it vague. Yeah that trombone looks horrendous, and I would love to have been a fly on the wall during the prototyping session where they hammered down the best combination of parts to really get the characteristic "Chris Bill Sound". That would have been fascinating.

Here is a taste:

<YOUTUBE id="nPvgWPTE_dE">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/nPvgWPTE_dE</YOUTUBE>

bimmerman · by **bimmerman** » 2020-10-26 2:44 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="mahlertwo" post_id="128718" time="1603686727" user_id="5762">

I honestly can't tell whether you're impressed or horrified by it.[/quote]

Oh, no. I was trying to keep it vague. Yeah that trombone looks horrendous, and I would love to have been a fly on the wall during the prototyping session where they hammered down the best combination of parts to really get the characteristic "Chris Bill Sound". That would have been fascinating.

Here is a taste:

<YOUTUBE id="nPvgWPTE_dE">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/nPvgWPTE_dE</YOUTUBE>
</QUOTE>

I mean, he did make that video and an earlier one playtesting and comparing various materials at BAC.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-26 3:19 a.m.

[quote="bimmerman"]I mean, he did make that video and an earlier one playtesting and comparing various materials at BAC.[/quote]

I want to hear the BAC crew giving feedback on sound, articulations, etc during the playtests. It would be fascinating to me. "There is a lot more core in that tone now that we put that kilogram of brass flames up in the tuning slide. Plus... we cut it already so you gotta keep it! Like, pretty please."

No way do you settle on a setup and then put a 3mm thick sheet of brass into the bell crook. You have to get sold on it.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2020-10-26 8:03 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I want to hear the BAC crew giving feedback on sound, articulations, etc during the playtests. It would be fascinating to me. "There is a lot more core in that tone now that we put that kilogram of brass flames up in the tuning slide. Plus... we cut it already so you gotta keep it! Like, pretty please."

No way do you settle on a setup and then put a 3mm thick sheet of brass into the bell crook. You have to get sold on it.[/quote]

If it was a Monettoid sheet brace/'tone plate' that would certainly be true.

But, in this [opinion redacted] case, the attachment points for the braces/counterweights are local and conventional, so you could plausibly test response with a normal brace and added counterweight(s), and then calibrate the flagrancy of the flames (and the stock thickness thereof) to give the same mass. ;)

Cotboneman · by **Cotboneman** » 2020-10-27 12:28 a.m.

I keep hearing about poor customer service, poor follow up and general poor business practices with BAC. Honestly though, I never had any issues with them through emails, phone calls or shipping when I had them rebuild a Getzen Eterna model in 2018. But then I kept the customizations to a minimum, knowing how wild some of their designs are. I've no experience with any of their own trombones but I do understand that many below their Custom line originate offshore. The Custom horns are not my cup of tea LOL.

MagnumH · by **MagnumH** » 2020-10-27 10:48 a.m.

I'm a bit of a BAC convert after picking up their Paseo W6 model at ATW this year. It's an excellent horn that plays beautifully, and when I've emailed them to ask about a small mod to the counterbalance they were very responsive. They also sent me a new case, free of charge, when Dillon asked about it for me (at ATW it just came with a stock SKB-type hard case, but their website lists it as coming with the Protec Propac). I personally love the aesthetic of this horn, though some of their other aesthetics are harder to take. That's the thing though - it's very personal and customizable, so you can really get something you love, and either go full wacky or something much more mainstream. Hey, why not?

My understanding is that their custom instruments and their "handcraft" series are made in house in the USA, while their Apprentice and Artist series (which includes a cheaper version of the Elliot Mason) are designed in house and made overseas.

Regarding carbon fibre slides - IIRC when I bought mine they had the option of a Butler CF slide, but not one that they made themselves. Perhaps that's changed by now, but I wonder if it's still a Butler that they tweak to fit as needed.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2020-10-27 1:18 p.m.

If you want a carbon fiber slide, go to David Butler.

If you want a crazy custom horn, go to Sweeney Brass.

If you want a BAC, go try their current stock, know exactly what you want, and consistently follow up to make sure it’s being built to your specs. John Duda, Kevin Stiles, Bonnie Freiberg, and Darrell Wilson are incredible. They are serious about the craft and will dedicate their skill to building you an amazing horn, like the Paseo I’ve tried recently.

My last BAC project in 2017 asked to rebuild a King 3B, add an f attachment with pigtail Williams wrap, engrave my name and a phrase in a font I selected, and give it a satin antique finish as seen on Reference 54 and p. Mauriat saxophones.

Before pics are what Mike Corrigan made, after is how J Landress Brass modified it to get closer to what my initial vision was, with a Butler slide. Know that I really appreciated the thoughtfulness in trying to build a custom horn that represented me and the work that went into that. Also know that I did not ask for a heavy metal plate, especially with a Yankees logo engraved on it, and did not ask for BAC to copper plate half the bell section. I was not consulted on this or told how these aesthetic choices would positively or negatively affect the horn’s playability.

Forum can decide which they like best!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-27 4:46 p.m.

So you had to pay more money to get the metal plate and copper plating removed?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-10-27 4:59 p.m.

[quote="RJMason"]

Forum can decide which they like best![/quote]

Yikes. Glad you got what you wanted in the end, I know a couple of the Sweeney dudes- great shop.

I do have to ask if you play with the tuning slide out that far, on my 3B/F it's out maybe an inch?

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-10-27 5:19 p.m.

Surprising that they plated your bell section without asking, and put a yankees logo on the plate. Just to be clear, the only thing you asked for is the custom valve wrap, engraving, and satin finish? Did the copper half have a satin finish?

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2020-10-27 5:20 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="RJMason" post_id="128811" time="1603819113" user_id="3369">

Forum can decide which they like best![/quote]

Yikes. Glad you got what you wanted in the end, I know a couple of the Sweeney dudes- great shop.

I do have to ask if you play with the tuning slide out that far, on my 3B/F it's out maybe an inch?
</QUOTE>

That was a fluke in the picture. I was experimenting with a Butler .500 slide which fit and sounded great, but the tuning slide had to be pulled that far to play it in tune. I sold this BAC/King and kept the Butler for a 6H Bell, as originally intended.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2020-10-27 5:53 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]Surprising that they plated your bell section without asking, and put a yankees logo on the plate. Just to be clear, the only thing you asked for is the custom valve wrap, engraving, and satin finish? Did the copper half have a satin finish?[/quote]

To be clear, I did not ask for a Yankees logo, a heavy tuning slide plate, or to copper plate the bell. The copper plate also had a dark antique lacquer applied to it. The before picture shows that it doesn’t really look “satin” at all. The slide tubes also were given that lacquer to give the illusion of what looks like a carbon slide. The lacquer was thick and according to my tech was very weak, hence the multiple coatings. It started wearing rather quickly, though this is more common on modern horns these days.

I fervently believe in BAC’s passion for creating wonderful horns for their customers and creating innovative designs that reflect the player’s personality. Regretfully, this design seemed to be more of a projection of what BAC “thought” I liked, and a cool photo op (red has never been my color and the horn is literally Kansas City Chiefs colors), instead of actually consulting with me. Not every project can be a bullseye, but my lesson is that players should be way more hands on if they desire a serious custom project like this.

And to answer Harrison’s question, yes I paid more money to a reputable tech to “correct” the instrument as best as possible. Remove the copper plate (but I kept it on the inside of the bell to save money and it looked unique), remove the lacquer, and the plate. The horn played much better, but the horn played better as a straight horn. I shouldn’t have messed with it, learned my lesson the hard way.

I have played half a dozen BAC trombones I really liked. One with a nickel bell I LOVED! And I’ve seen and believe in the talented staff employed there now. Many of those employees were not there when I started commissioning projects there. Sadly, I was not able to rely on their company to build me something that works. Doesn’t mean they won’t work for someone else though!

These are my own personal opinions and experiences. Don’t take them as an endorsement or repudiation. Everyone should make up their own minds. I’m grateful that I’m even in the position of playing trombone for a living and being able to afford projects like this. But I am sharing so others can possibly learn from my experiences and equip themselves with knowledge that aids in a fruitful collaboration with the company.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-10-27 8:50 p.m.

What the heck? I'm just having trouble trying to imagine WHY someone, anyone, would copper plate a BRASS bell? And why only half? That just doesn't make ANY sense to me.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-28 1:11 a.m.

In my neck of the woods I am very conflicted over having a leadpipe pulled and fitted with a threaded adapter to accept other leadpipes, to try and get a horn to play better. The photos of both versions of RJMason's horns are pretty shocking to me, especially since he wasn't able to make choices that impacted the way the 3B played. That it played worse when he got it is like...

I think the first one looked kind of cool, steampunky, but HEAVY. I'm not a fan of the thin, curved bracing that you see so much in these custom horns -- it looks like the avant "garden" metal decorations you see in fancy gardens.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2020-11-01 7:14 p.m.

Hi everyone,

I would never let anyone determine my aesthetics. What I am looking for from Mike and B.A.C. is the will, the courage, the confidence, and the skill to build, not decorate an instrument. So far, I've asked Mike a couple of challenging European 'build' questions (ones that I already know the answer for) and he has known the answer both times. He seems knowledgeable, keen, and positive; which is more than I can say for some of the other builders who want to sell me an assembly line product. I'm waiting to hear from De Carbo, but Mike has inspired optimism in me regarding my custom .490 slide build (brass/carbon with thumb operated water key). I'll let you know how things progress.

Tim

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-11-01 7:24 p.m.

Good luuuuuck!

HenryNewquist · by **HenryNewquist** » 2022-05-17 11:58 a.m.

Just purchsed a Paseo W6 trombone. I've heard many good things about them and how they play very nicely and they look very nice. Very happy that it is made in the US, but I know some of their other trombones aren't made in the US. Being a smaller custom company, I don't blame them for having their cheaper horns being made overseas. Very excited about the W6, they play very well. As a Jazz player i've only played a King 2B and a Conn 6H. I love my 6H, but for me the BAC played better and I love the sound it gives. But if you're looking for something similar for cheaper I would recommend a 6H or a 3B. You can get a nice vintage one for half the price of a new W6. Overall BAC, makes really cool custom horns and I would recommend if you have the money and like them. A lot of it iss just my personal preference of what sound I want.

- Henry

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2022-05-17 1:01 p.m.

With this old thread reopened and the realization that things change over time...

I've had mixed experience with BAC. On one hand, some of their horns are insanely priced, and border on gaudy cake decorator type work. Some of the designs seem impractical and downright dangerous, with a lot of sharp metal points. Without knowing anything about how they play, I wouldn't get near some of these horns.

They do have some instruments I would like to play. The Eliot Mason signature (I guess this is the normal looking one, not the ridiculous one made from plate brass), but it sells for $1600 and is made in China. I almost got one used at a reasonable price. I wrote to them and asked a question on specs for this horn, and never heard back.

They get a lot of bad press about customer service, but I don't always put a lot of stock in these stories, since you tend to reap what you sow. Bad customers tend to have a lot of bad stories. For example, I've heard a lot of bad things about Irvin Karan, but I find him a good guy to deal with as long as you're reasonable.

On the other hand, I've bought a couple of horns from BAC on a very low-key ebay account where they have sold some really excellent vintage horns for under market value. These have been slightly modified 32h and a Courtois 402. These are horns I would buy again. Professionally packed and shipped with a minimum of hype and drama. This might just be the difference between who runs the repair/modification part of the business vs who runs the new instrument side.

jorymil · by **jorymil** » 2022-05-17 8:22 p.m.

I moved back to Kansas City right before COVID hit, and have consigned several horns with BAC Music, which is/was their retail/repair arm. It's been fantastic to be able to try out a horn or two, then have them list it if it doesn't work out. And they've been good about hanging onto horns until they sell. The market for a particular used horn is not very large, so their patience is a virtue.

I don't have the money for a custom horn, but have had slide repairs done and the F/G cut made to my 3b+f. Have always been happy with the work. I'm thinking about a plug-in valve for my Holton Tr-185 down the road, and will likely go there depending on availability.

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