Yikes

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 3:18 a.m.

Did anyone else see a certain trombone player's racist remarks getting spread around FB? I'll be decent (deserved or not) and leave their name out, but the employing orchestra posted that they are at least aware of the situation. I wonder what course of action they will decide to take.

In looking at the person's Twitter account it seems not very surprising they would hold such ignorant views. From what others have posted it appears that those who knew her were not surprised, with some claiming this was not the first 'questionable' thing she has posted.

While this country may be a breeding ground for that kind of behavior, it is still very upsetting and surprising to see that there are artists who express these kinds of views. How can you even be a member of an orchestra (or a musician/artist in general) if you believe (the collective) we are on different teams?

Such a shame.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-05-31 4:02 a.m.

Did she just get kicked off of Facebook? I figured out who it is and found screenshots, but a search for her name doesn't go anywhere.

Almost nothing surprises me anymore.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 4:37 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Did she just get kicked off of Facebook? I figured out who it is and found screenshots, but a search for her name doesn't go anywhere.

Almost nothing surprises me anymore.[/quote]

I believe either her account was taken down, or she deleted it/locked it down after facing backlash. The post with screenshots got lots of attention and many people wrote to the employing orchestra demanding action.

Play stupid games... Win stupid prizes.

Gary · by **Gary** » 2020-05-31 10:47 a.m.

Well you realize that, for many of us, we have no idea what you are talkin about. So, unless you just like to hear yourself talk (meant nicely, not disingenuously), without a link you can't get much of a dialogue going.

p.s. the people involved that can take action against her certainly know about the situation. In that case, while being considerate of her by not giving any details, you are not really protecting her.,

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2020-05-31 11:19 a.m.

Who said what?

I’m ok with outing people for racism...

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 11:57 a.m.

Here was the orchestra's response, which was posted actually very quickly (matter of a couple hours). I am not the type of person to put her name down here (whether she deserves it or not), but it won't take a Sherlock to figure out who she is.

<FACEBOOK id="10163287817685212" type="p" user="99396525211"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/99396525211/po ... 817685212/">https://www.facebook.com/99396525211/posts/10163287817685212/</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-31 12:13 p.m.

Are these views (or worse) not held by approximately 1/3 of Americans?

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-05-31 12:27 p.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]Who said what?

I’m ok with outing people for racism...[/quote]

<FACEBOOK id="10221421415980185" type="p" user="ryan.johnstone.14"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/ryan.johnstone ... cation=ufi">https://www.facebook.com/ryan.johnstone.14/posts/10221421415980185?hc_location=ufi</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

Click on individual panels to enlarge comments. The person who reposted the these stated they were posted on Saturday evening. I don't see dates. Some of the feedback on the Austin Symphony FB page suggests there may have been other comments as well. I don't participate in FB and have no way to verify.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2020-05-31 1:06 p.m.

Brenda Sansig Salas of the Austin Symphony.

Shame on you. People are being murdered.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-05-31 1:08 p.m.

Joseph Alessi: Whoever Brenda is, she should be reprimanded by the orchestra and perhaps fired for these comments. I certainly would be fired if I made these statements. What on earth is wrong with people? We should respect all races, all religions, and shut the hell up. This country is in big trouble because our leaders don't seem to care. Anyone connected with Brenda should tell her to apologize for these comments.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2020-05-31 1:13 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]Joseph Alessi: Whoever Brenda is, she should be reprimanded by the orchestra and perhaps fired for these comments. I certainly would be fired if I made these statements. What on earth is wrong with people? We should respect all races, all religions, and shut the hell up. This country is in big trouble because our leaders don't seem to care. Anyone connected with Brenda should tell her to apologize for these comments.[/quote]

Go Joe!

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-05-31 1:25 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Are these views (or worse) not held by approximately 1/3 of Americans?[/quote]

I don't know, but where do you get your approximation from?

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-05-31 1:29 p.m.

Her link/page was removed from the Austin Symphony web site.

https://austinsymphony.org/about/musicians/

It was there within the past hour. Hopefully they were terminated. Hopefully they will lose any teaching gigs as well.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-05-31 1:44 p.m.

Immediate termination from all jobs? Where's the chance for redemption? I read her posts and I think her views are abhorrent, but does that instantly lead to termination and disgrace?

If a man or a woman commits horrible crimes in their youth and pay for their crimes and turn their lives around we celebrate that redemption, we welcome them back into society. I just hope that we give this woman the same chance out of simple love and respect for another human being. Perhaps that's more than she deserves, I don't know the woman so I can't say. I would want to be given a chance if I was in a similar situation.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 1:53 p.m.

While she is ultimately to blame for her own views, I believe that it is true that punishing her will not actually solve much. We need to reform the way POC are portrayed by the media and the inherent differences in the way different races are treated differently for the same things.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-05-31 2:32 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Immediate termination from all jobs? Where's the chance for redemption? I read her posts and I think her views are abhorrent, but does that instantly lead to termination and disgrace?[/quote]

[quote="Mv2541"]While she is ultimately to blame for her own views, I believe that it is true that punishing her will not actually solve much. We need to reform the way POC are portrayed by the media and the inherent differences in the way different races are treated differently for the same things.[/quote]

Yes, termination and disgrace. Zero tolerance.

It will give them time to consider how their racism impacts people of color, including those with whom their children interact.

They can work their way back after overcoming their ignorance.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-31 2:48 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="114892" time="1590941608" user_id="2999">
Are these views (or worse) not held by approximately 1/3 of Americans?[/quote]

I don't know, but where do you get your approximation from?
</QUOTE>

Am I too low?

Isn’t firing someone for expressing their views contrary to American values?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-05-31 2:58 p.m.

Not to minimize the offensive remarks, but we have had demonstrations that were far from peaceful about this apparent murder of a black person.

I think the action of the Minnesota policeman was unpardonable. There have been more than a few cases where POC are not treated the same as whites and are often maltreated because of it.

But the solution is not to burn down police stations or loot stores. This is even worse than an armed invasion of a State House demanding haircuts.

To quote Walt Kelly's Pogo: "We has met the enemy, and he is us."

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-05-31 3:57 p.m.

I guess there’s gonna be a new post on the music business forum.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-05-31 3:58 p.m.

Her name has been removed from the Austin Symphony Orchestra's website, which likely means she has been terminated.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-05-31 4:06 p.m.

I'm not going to get too deep into this, I think everyone should be aware that the overwhelming majority of violence has been directly incited by either the police or less commonly, unaffiliated white supremacist groups. Public media will not show you this, because it will get them shut down.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-05-31 4:11 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="114904" time="1590947088" user_id="2978">
Immediate termination from all jobs? Where's the chance for redemption? I read her posts and I think her views are abhorrent, but does that instantly lead to termination and disgrace?[/quote]

[quote="Mv2541"]While she is ultimately to blame for her own views, I believe that it is true that punishing her will not actually solve much. We need to reform the way POC are portrayed by the media and the inherent differences in the way different races are treated differently for the same things.[/quote]

Yes, termination and disgrace. Zero tolerance.

It will give them time to consider how their racism impacts people of color, including those with whom their children interact.

They can work their way back after overcoming their ignorance.
</QUOTE>

You might Ascertain from my previous post that you quoted that I disagree with your view. There are other ways of punishing a person like this, for instance suspension and sending her to the appropriate classes. I didn't say she shouldn't be punished for her views, I just don't think it should be that severe. Remember, you have to give room for Redemption.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-05-31 4:13 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="114899" time="1590945917" user_id="2978">

I don't know, but where do you get your approximation from?[/quote]

Am I too low?

Isn’t firing someone for expressing their views contrary to American values?
</QUOTE>

I don't know the percentage, but it seems as if you do. I would like you to site where you got that figure from. Or is it just the best guess?

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-05-31 4:18 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]I'm not going to get too deep into this, I think everyone should be aware that the overwhelming majority of violence has been directly incited by either the police or less commonly, unaffiliated white supremacist groups. Public media will not show you this, because it will get them shut down.[/quote]

The vast majority of police forces are made up of people who want to serve other people. They're made of white, black, and brown people. The vast majority of police officers do not go out of their way to incite violence. If you have research or other scientific data which shows differently I'd be happy to read it. What that dude in Minnesota did and the police officers that stood by watching it is Despicable but not representative of the vast majority of police forces in America.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-05-31 4:24 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="slipperyjoe" post_id="114910" time="1590949960" user_id="9188">

Yes, termination and disgrace. Zero tolerance.

It will give them time to consider how their racism impacts people of color, including those with whom their children interact.

They can work their way back after overcoming their ignorance.[/quote]

You might Ascertain from my previous post that you quoted that I disagree with your view. There are other ways of punishing a person like this, for instance suspension and sending her to the appropriate classes. I didn't say she shouldn't be punished for her views, I just don't think it should be that severe. Remember, you have to give room for Redemption.
</QUOTE>

There’s other jobs. If she made one small comment then it could’ve been an accident. But no, she repeatedly stated her racist opinions and made the choice of posting. That’s her own ignorance. She should’ve known the consequences of her actions before posting something that would obviously hurt her image. I feel the symphony did the right choice, if she wants redemption then she can work her way up again. You need to learn to think about what you’re posting before you post it. Not to mention how bad this must look for the rest of the group

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-05-31 4:43 p.m.

I completely agree that person should have thought about what they were posting before they posted it. But does that really matter? Racism just would have been hidden instead of put on full display for the whole world to see.

I've done some really stupid things in my life and was given a second chance and took advantage of that second chance to build a new life for myself and my family. I'm just hoping that she gets the same chance. I don't know this woman, but she's a fellow human being and I have compassion for her and Hope that whatever makes her feel so hateful inside can be healed.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-05-31 4:49 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]

The vast majority of police forces are made up of people who want to serve other people. They're made of white, black, and brown people. The vast majority of police officers do not go out of their way to incite violence. If you have research or other scientific data which shows differently I'd be happy to read it. What that dude in Minnesota did and the police officers that stood by watching it is Despicable but not representative of the vast majority of police forces in America.[/quote]

I can't give you 'scientific data' but I'm not sure what kind of 'scientific data' you are going to expect from riots and protests. That seems like flawed logic.

I wrote a huge post on FB about this, but I'll do it again because I believe the conversation is worth having:

Watch this video:

<FACEBOOK id="1115609038807106" type="v" user="chris.sawyer.142240"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/chris.sawyer.1 ... 038807106/">https://www.facebook.com/chris.sawyer.142240/videos/1115609038807106/</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

I'm going to be a bit extreme and say even if this disturbs you, you have a responsibility to watch it all the way through. And this is maybe HALF of the cases that occurred YESTERDAY.

Do you see the body language here? These are children having temper tantrums. Even in situations where use of force may have been necessary to regain control, they ACTIVELY chased down citizens and continued to injure others, even if they have acquired complete control over the situation. The officers standing by watching this happen are complicit in their activities.

All of these cases have exposed that our police force is as a general rule undertrained, not qualified, and not mentally sound enough to be doing the duties that they are.

There is a video that is left out of the Minnesota State Patrol shooting paint rounds at citizens on their own property. Yes, they were outdoors past curfew, but the curfew law specifically states that they are allowed to be outside on their own property.

Except they didn't know that. Let that sink in. The police officers whose job it is to uphold the law didn't know the law. You can hear one of the officers yell "light 'em up" almost as if it is a game to them. Does that not disturb you? There were at least 20+ fully armed troopers in full riot gear, and they decided that it was necessary to open fire on 4 people standing on their own porch.

If this doesn't convince you that there needs to be major criminal justice reform, I'm not sure what will. And I think it will take everyone coming to the table to learn what it it takes to proceed.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-05-31 4:56 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]I completely agree that person should have thought about what they were posting before they posted it. But does that really matter? Racism just would have been hidden instead of put on full display for the whole world to see.

I've done some really stupid things in my life and was given a second chance and took advantage of that second chance to build a new life for myself and my family. I'm just hoping that she gets the same chance. I don't know this woman, but she's a fellow human being and I have compassion for her and Hope that whatever makes her feel so hateful inside can be healed.[/quote]

You should consider yourself extremely lucky then. You have to learn at some point that your actions have consequences. No one is entitled to a second chance, but you can learn from your mistakes, move forward, and do the best you can.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-31 5:32 p.m.

In employment law, there is the concept of progressive discipline. Something like warning, suspension, termination.

Cooler heads might have agreed that a suspension and ‘sensitivity training’ (although I once heard a prof explain that sensitivity training made most situations worse by reinforcing already deeply engrained attitudes) might have been appropriate.

Termination creates a martyr?

slipperyjoe · 2020-05-31 5:48 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]In employment law, there is the concept of progressive discipline. Something like warning, suspension, termination.

Cooler heads might have agreed that a suspension and ‘sensitivity training’ (although I once heard a prof explain that sensitivity training made most situations worse by reinforcing already deeply engrained attitudes) might have been appropriate.

Termination creates a martyr?[/quote]

It may depend on the circumstances, e.g., public vs. private employer, unionized or not, terms agreed upon at the commencement of employment, etc. At-will employment can provide for immediate dismissal without cause, as long as labor laws have not been violated.

In my workplace (K-12 school), we participated in many years of regular and very carefully coordinated community and inclusion work and barely scratched the surface. There is just so much to learn. And, perhaps more importantly, to unlearn. It's really a lifetime of work, especially for white people. We are all really very clueless.

The person who is subject of this discussion is well beyond the reach of any 'sensitivity' training, whatever that is, that might allow them to return to the workplace. They have a load of baggage that could take the rest of their life to undo.

I suspect any martyrdom won't pay the bills.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-05-31 5:52 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Not to minimize the offensive remarks, but we have had demonstrations that were far from peaceful about this apparent murder of a black person.

I think the action of the Minnesota policeman was unpardonable. There have been more than a few cases where POC are not treated the same as whites and are often maltreated because of it.

But the solution is not to burn down police stations or loot stores. This is even worse than an armed invasion of a State House demanding haircuts.

To quote Walt Kelly's Pogo: "We has met the enemy, and he is us."[/quote]

I agree re: destruction. I do, however, find it ironic that we decry destruction at home while we (the United States) have spent my entire lifetime raining destruction down on people of color around the world in order to benefit the white, U.S. corporate establishment.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-05-31 6:16 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]

I agree re: destruction. I do, however, find it ironic that we decry destruction at home while we (the United States) have spent my entire lifetime raining destruction down on people of color around the world in order to benefit the white, U.S. corporate establishment.[/quote]

I don't agree with our raining destruction on POC in other countries either, unless they have done something to deserve it. I realize our hands are not clean.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-05-31 6:38 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="114923" time="1590956313" user_id="2978">

The vast majority of police forces are made up of people who want to serve other people. They're made of white, black, and brown people. The vast majority of police officers do not go out of their way to incite violence. If you have research or other scientific data which shows differently I'd be happy to read it. What that dude in Minnesota did and the police officers that stood by watching it is Despicable but not representative of the vast majority of police forces in America.[/quote]

I can't give you 'scientific data' but I'm not sure what kind of 'scientific data' you are going to expect from riots and protests. That seems like flawed logic.

I wrote a huge post on FB about this, but I'll do it again because I believe the conversation is worth having:

Watch this video:

<FACEBOOK id="1115609038807106" type="v" user="chris.sawyer.142240"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/chris.sawyer.1 ... 038807106/">https://www.facebook.com/chris.sawyer.142240/videos/1115609038807106/</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

I'm going to be a bit extreme and say even if this disturbs you, you have a responsibility to watch it all the way through. And this is maybe HALF of the cases that occurred YESTERDAY.

Do you see the body language here? These are children having temper tantrums. Even in situations where use of force may have been necessary to regain control, they ACTIVELY chased down citizens and continued to injure others, even if they have acquired complete control over the situation. The officers standing by watching this happen are complicit in their activities.

All of these cases have exposed that our police force is as a general rule undertrained, not qualified, and not mentally sound enough to be doing the duties that they are.

There is a video that is left out of the Minnesota State Patrol shooting paint rounds at citizens on their own property. Yes, they were outdoors past curfew, but the curfew law specifically states that they are allowed to be outside on their own property.

Except they didn't know that. Let that sink in. The police officers whose job it is to uphold the law didn't know the law. You can hear one of the officers yell "light 'em up" almost as if it is a game to them. Does that not disturb you? There were at least 20+ fully armed troopers in full riot gear, and they decided that it was necessary to open fire on 4 people standing on their own porch.

If this doesn't convince you that there needs to be major criminal justice reform, I'm not sure what will. And I think it will take everyone coming to the table to learn what it it takes to proceed.
</QUOTE>

Thank you for posting that Facebook link because those videos are a source of data. Where is all of this taking place? Are these clips from Minnesota, or is this from across the nation? There really has to be context here. Do some police officers commit acts of violence that are outside the realm of their job? I'd say yes. But that doesn't mean all police officers do this or that all police departments use violence as a tool against protesters. We need better data to know the full story.

I stand by my conviction that the majority of officers want to do the right thing and serve other people. I appreciate departments that have moved to community policing. If there are departments that use violence first obviously they have to retrain their officers, because the use of violence as a first tactic comes from training and from the culture of a police department.

I also appreciate the intelligent discussion that is being had. The subject brings out a lot of emotion in people, and rightly so. But we'll never going to find Solutions screaming past each other or by name-calling. It will only come from individuals working with other individuals for change.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-05-31 8:20 p.m.

This is across the country. Many of the incidents have even happened in extremely progressive areas such as Portland or Seattle (in Seattle a 9 year old was pepper sprayed). I found a list of all of these videos and where they occurred earlier today, but I can't seem to find it.

I think I would agree with you that the majority of officers want to do the right thing. In fact, here is a video of a Flint, Michigan Sheriff rallying with the protesters in a positive way.

<FACEBOOK id="3486864431342904" type="v" user="avissword"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/avissword/vide ... 431342904/">https://www.facebook.com/avissword/videos/3486864431342904/</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

However, I don't think we can say that this issue is not systemic across our nation, and in fact the evidence points that it is, and that it has been going on for a very long time.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2020-05-31 8:35 p.m.

A message from Austin Symphony Orchestra Executive Director, Anthony Corroa

“We would like to thank the community and let you know that your voice was heard. As previously stated, we were made aware of offensive posts that were shared on social media by one of our musicians late last night. Once alerted, we were appalled by the comments as they are clearly not reflective of who we are as an organization. We began to work quickly and closely with the American Federation of Musicians, our Orchestra Committee, staff and other key members. At this time we can state that the musician is no longer employed by the ASO for there is no place for hate within our organization. Thank you for your patience while we navigated through the necessary channels.”

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-05-31 8:49 p.m.

Good riddance.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-05-31 9:00 p.m.

Wow. Accused. Tried. Convicted. Executed. By a mob. In an afternoon. Congratulations.

The mob mentality is exactly what we are reacting against, but we are doing it by perpetuating the mob mentality.

There has to be a better way than public lynchings. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the past?

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-05-31 9:12 p.m.

I would be careful about using the term 'lynching' to describe that particular situation.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-05-31 9:17 p.m.

One irrational post is a mistake. Several evokes a bias. I would think that the AFM and the Orchestra Management had a lot more than just somebody mouthing off once.

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Massimo LaRosa and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?

Note: I had put Daniel Morandini in here by mistake. I apologize to Mr. Morandini, who is innocent.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-05-31 9:25 p.m.

Jeez 2020 has been shitty and we’re not even into June yet.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-05-31 9:42 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Wow. Accused. Tried. Convicted. Executed. By a mob. In an afternoon. Congratulations.

The mob mentality is exactly what we are reacting against, but we are doing it by perpetuating the mob mentality.

There has to be a better way than public lynchings. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the past?[/quote]

First off, there really wasn't an accusation; she wrote and published the words herself with her own (racist) brain to a public place for everyone to see. If you are found to have cancer, the doctors aim to remove it quickly and entirely before it spreads. There is no room for that kind of person in a professional environment, and she dug her own grave.

Your use of the word 'lynching' is also inappropriate at best. I would advise you, most respectfully, to check yourself and your privilege. She lost her job for spewing filth on her personal Facebook account; innocent people were lynched in America for merely being born people of color. They are not at all related.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-05-31 9:47 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]...

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?[/quote]

You've done it again. I didn't excuse anyone. Failure to jump on the wagon is not the same as excusing. I just think a civilized country has due process specifically to avoid mob judgment.

And the word "lynching" was chosen specifically to link the hypocrisy of mob rule to mete out punishment to all previous connotations of the word. .

The reason racism is perpetuating in this country is that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease: Intolerance. If you accept any form of intolerance you embrace violence. If you reject intolerance, you have to get comfortable coexisting with people who are different and think differently, but that's the definitionof tolerance and the essence of civilization. You can't have it both ways. Our history proves it.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2020-05-31 10:00 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="114955" time="1590974258" user_id="53">
...

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?[/quote]

You've done it again. I didn't excuse anyone. Failure to jump on the wagon is not the same as excusing. I just think a civilized country has due process specifically to avoid mob judgment.

And the word "lynching" was chosen specifically to link the hypocrisy of mob rule to mete out punishment to all previous connotations of the word. .

The reason racism is perpetuating in this country is that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease: Intolerance. If you accept any form of intolerance you embrace violence. If you reject intolerance, you have to get comfortable coexisting with people who are different and think differently, but that's the definitionof tolerance and the essence of civilization. You can't have it both ways. Our history proves it.
</QUOTE>

So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-05-31 10:29 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]First off, there really wasn't an accusation; she wrote and published the words herself with her own (racist) brain to a public place for everyone to see. If you are found to have cancer, the doctors aim to remove it quickly and entirely before it spreads. There is no room for that kind of person in a professional environment, and she dug her own grave.

Your use of the word 'lynching' is also inappropriate at best. I would advise you, most respectfully, to check yourself and your privilege. She lost her job for spewing filth on her personal Facebook account; innocent people were lynched in America for merely being born people of color. They are not at all related.[/quote]

Well said. Thank you.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-05-31 11:06 p.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?[/quote]

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.

.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-05-31 11:27 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]One irrational post is a mistake. Several evokes a bias. I would think that the AFM and the Orchestra Management had a lot more than just somebody mouthing off once.

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?[/quote]

Just to keep this from derailing - I think that you meant Massimo LaRosa, not Daniel Morandini. I'm not aware of any misconduct complaints against Daniel, while Massimo is no longer with the Cleveland Orchestra. We don't need to have a different Italian trombonist have his reputation sullied by an identity mistake. On the other hand, I'm fine with people being held responsible for their actions, including firing.

Orchestras reserve the right to fire employees for the behaviour that was demonstrated in this Facebook post. Like it or not, you are a representative of the organization, and the public doesn't always differentiate between personal and professional statements.

Jim Scott

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-05-31 11:31 p.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="114955" time="1590974258" user_id="53">
One irrational post is a mistake. Several evokes a bias. I would think that the AFM and the Orchestra Management had a lot more than just somebody mouthing off once.

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?[/quote]

Just to keep this from derailing - I think that you meant Massimo LaRosa, not Daniel Morandini. I'm not aware of any misconduct complaints against Daniel, while Massimo is no longer with the Cleveland Orchestra. We don't need to have a different Italian trombonist have his reputation sullied by an identity mistake. On the other hand, I'm fine with people being held responsible for their actions, including firing.

Orchestras reserve the right to fire employees for the behaviour that was demonstrated in this Facebook post. Like it or not, you are a representative of the organization, and the public doesn't always differentiate between personal and professional statements.

Jim Scott
</QUOTE>

I already corrected my original post to change Morandini to LaRosa. I apologize for that error.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-01 12:20 a.m.

[/quote]

The reason racism is perpetuating in this country is that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease: Intolerance. If you accept any form of intolerance you embrace violence. If you reject intolerance, you have to get comfortable coexisting with people who are different and think differently, but that's the definitionof tolerance and the essence of civilization. You can't have it both ways. Our history proves it.

[/quote]

Of course this is simply an opinion, but I believe racism stems from ignorance, not that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease (not even mentioning the fact that have claimed to both know the cure for racism and understand the essence of civilization). Also I do not think life (nor intolerance) works like an on-off switch. We can choose to tolerate something while not tolerating something else, and this is a sliding scale. Why does being intolerant on matters of a racist person in what should be a safe workspace mean that we have to embrace violence?

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-06-01 12:40 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="114964" time="1590976814" user_id="7231">
So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?[/quote]

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.

.
</QUOTE>

I don't totally disagree with this, but you are making very polarizing statements, which don't really get anyone anywhere.

Again, no one is really entitled to second chances. Does she deserve due process? Sure. She can clean up her act and audition for another orchestra, and maybe she'll get re-hired if she makes a compelling case.

However, if the orchestra sets the public precedent wrong, they (and other orchestras) could have easily collapsed from loss of donors, loss of ticket sales, etc. Now you are talking about hundreds without work.

Orchestras are non-profit cultural organizations, not businesses. They hardly stay afloat most of the time, and have to do massive public outreach to stay there. It just boils down to realizing your actions have consequences. We've all done/said stupid things before that maybe we regret later, and some times you end up on the losing end of it.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-01 1:26 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Wow. Accused. Tried. Convicted. Executed. By a mob. In an afternoon. Congratulations.

The mob mentality is exactly what we are reacting against, but we are doing it by perpetuating the mob mentality.

There has to be a better way than public lynchings. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the past?[/quote]

Here's the real yikes today, everyone.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2020-06-01 9:02 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="114964" time="1590976814" user_id="7231">
So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?[/quote]

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.

.
</QUOTE>

I used to think that way.

Then I realized that my privilege as a white person, my assumption that due process and law will work for everyone equally, was the reason that idea was so easy to embrace. When I get pulled over, or see a police officer, my assumption is that I’m not going to be murdered. People of color can’t make that assumption. That’s privilege. Same thing with the legal system. Same thing with employment. Same thing across society.

We need to be better allies.

Protecting oppressors only hurts victims. Tolerating public racist rants only gives racist violence a backdrop that normalizes it.

And being fired from an orchestra isnt in the same universe as being murdered at a traffic stop.

Im done intellectualizing this because for the victims of racism (and sexism, and homophobia, and transphobia, etc etc etc) it isn’t an intellectual issue. It’s a matter of life and death. It’s an everyday issue of fear and oppression.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2020-06-01 9:28 a.m.

Yes, Kris. Well said.

Her facebook account was removed before I had a chance to look at it; I did see some of her twitter feed. This is not new behavior from her. Her published racist opinions create a hostile workplace environment, which is a fireable offense in any field. There have to be consequences.

From an ACLU lawyer:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.talksonlaw.com/briefs/can-y ... F5XEdvhcS0">https://www.talksonlaw.com/briefs/can-you-be-fired-for-speech-outside-the-office?fbclid=IwAR2ccvRlWyRlgNF9gLTx_XZ9hBzMNjcjWOeQoRlw1Sex6seQTF5XEdvhcS0</LINK_TEXT>

From the Society for Human Resource Management:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-m ... krHKqqEeQw">https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magazine/0918/pages/firing-for-online-behavior-.aspx?fbclid=IwAR2Lx--X1RyZ7C7ZTZfRnWVihjIyp56Oyk-30t5kxgQk8ESlvkrHKqqEeQw</LINK_TEXT>

"...five states—California, Colorado, Louisiana, New York and North Dakota—protect employees from retaliation for engaging in lawful off-duty conduct and political activities, no matter how distasteful their colleagues may consider their affiliations...Workers can, however, be axed for engaging in hate speech and making disparaging comments about protected categories of race, religion and gender."

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-01 9:41 a.m.

Apparently lost opera job as well:

https://slippedisc.com

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 9:44 a.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="114970" time="1590980765" user_id="104">

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.

.[/quote]

I used to think that way.

Then I realized that my privilege as a white person, my assumption that due process and law will work for everyone equally, was the reason that idea was so easy to embrace. When I get pulled over, or see a police officer, my assumption is that I’m not going to be murdered. People of color can’t make that assumption. That’s privilege. Same thing with the legal system. Same thing with employment. Same thing across society.

We need to be better allies.

Protecting oppressors only hurts victims. Tolerating public racist rants only gives racist violence a backdrop that normalizes it.

And being fired from an orchestra isnt in the same universe as being murdered at a traffic stop.

Im done intellectualizing this because for the victims of racism (and sexism, and homophobia, and transphobia, etc etc etc) it isn’t an intellectual issue. It’s a matter of life and death. It’s an everyday issue of fear and oppression.
</QUOTE>

Where's your data that due process does not work for individuals of color? How can you state that people of color do not have the same economic equality when Asian Americans earn more than white Americans? Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-01 9:55 a.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Where's your data that due process does not work for individuals of color? How can you state that people of color do not have the same economic equality when Asian Americans earn more than white Americans? Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting.[/quote]

Wow. Just wow.

Please read (carefully):

Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People:

https://tinyurl.com/y79dnoc8

White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism:

https://tinyurl.com/ybnbt84a

So You Want to Talk About Race:

https://tinyurl.com/yde7bkjc

(read this one twice)

You'll then be able to just barely wrap your head about having a meaningful conversation about systemic racism and how it impacts the lives of people of color every single day. You won't be good at it. None of us are. But it will be a start.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 10:08 a.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115012" time="1591019048" user_id="2978">
Where's your data that due process does not work for individuals of color? How can you state that people of color do not have the same economic equality when Asian Americans earn more than white Americans? Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting.[/quote]

Wow. Just wow.

Please read (carefully):

Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People:

https://tinyurl.com/y79dnoc8

White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism:

https://tinyurl.com/ybnbt84a

So You Want to Talk About Race:

https://tinyurl.com/yde7bkjc

Then we can talk.
</QUOTE>

Wow to facts? I wish you would address the points I made instead of sending me to articles. The only way we can progress in a conversation about such a sensitive issue is to address the facts. In the U.S., based on "Median houseland income in the past 12 months (in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars)". American Community Survey. United States Census Bureau. 2014., out of the top 10 wage earners 6 are of Asian or South African descent. Now, South Africa could mean white or black, so we can ignore the for the moment if you'd like. This would support the view that certain ethnic minorities are doing quite well economically.

I also wrote "Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting." Why not address that directly? I am of the view that most people can succeed in spite of some morons out there, and that people are inherently good and want to do the right thing.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-01 10:13 a.m.

Whatboutism at its finest.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2020-06-01 10:32 a.m.

It does not boil down to individual choice or luck. Thats the point.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 10:53 a.m.

We'll have to differ in opinions then, because in my eyes it is absolutely a factor. I did not mean to imply it is the only one, but it is a powerful influence.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-01 10:54 a.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Wow to facts? I wish you would address the points I made instead of sending me to articles. The only way we can progress in a conversation about such a sensitive issue is to address the facts. In the U.S., based on "Median houseland income in the past 12 months (in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars)". American Community Survey. United States Census Bureau. 2014., out of the top 10 wage earners 6 are of Asian or South African descent. Now, South Africa could mean white or black, so we can ignore the for the moment if you'd like. This would support the view that certain ethnic minorities are doing quite well economically.

I also wrote "Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting." Why not address that directly? I am of the view that most people can succeed in spite of some morons out there, and that people are inherently good and want to do the right thing.[/quote]

You would benefit from an education about systemic racism from points of view of people of color. Good luck with your research.

Gary · 2020-06-01 10:57 a.m.

Whoa! Don't most African and Indian immigrants represent the more educated to begin with? Also, I can't see how there's any comparison between them and African-Americans, because what it doesn't say is that, no matter how successful they might be, they're just another inferior colored person to some cracker.

In a matter of months, an African-American woman was blown away by cops and she was just sitting, peacefully, in her own home: an African-American man just jogging down the street, gets assaulted and murdered by a bunch of vigilantes; now this latest death at the hands of law enforcement. Actions speak louder than words.

If I were black, I would be sick. This has been going on for centuries, things explode and lip service says there will be action to right the wrongs, and hen practically nothing is changed. Business as usual.

If I were black, I would be wary every time I left the house.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 11:07 a.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115016" time="1591020531" user_id="2978">
Wow to facts? I wish you would address the points I made instead of sending me to articles. The only way we can progress in a conversation about such a sensitive issue is to address the facts. In the U.S., based on "Median houseland income in the past 12 months (in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars)". American Community Survey. United States Census Bureau. 2014., out of the top 10 wage earners 6 are of Asian or South African descent. Now, South Africa could mean white or black, so we can ignore the for the moment if you'd like. This would support the view that certain ethnic minorities are doing quite well economically.

I also wrote "Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting." Why not address that directly? I am of the view that most people can succeed in spite of some morons out there, and that people are inherently good and want to do the right thing.[/quote]

You would benefit from an education about systemic racism from points of view of people of color. Good luck with your research.
</QUOTE>

Not willing to address facts? That's the only way we can come to a rationale conclusion. You may be right, I may be right, but out of that we come to the truth.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 11:18 a.m.

[quote="Gary"]Whoa! Don't most African and Indian immigrants represent the more educated to begin with? Also, I can't see how there's any comparison between them and African-Americans, because what it doesn't say is that, no matter how successful they might be, they're just another inferior colored person to some cracker.

In a matter of months, an African-American woman was blown away by cops and she was just sitting, peacefully, in her own home: an African-American man just jogging down the street, gets assaulted and murdered by a bunch of vigilantes; now this latest death at the hands of law enforcement. Actions speak louder than words.

If I were black, I would be sick. This has been going on for centuries, things explode and lip service says there will be action to right the wrongs, and hen practically nothing is changed. Business as usual.

If I were black, I would be wary every time I left the house.[/quote]

This is an excellent website regarding officer involved shootings: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... ings-2019/">https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/</LINK_TEXT>

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 3:56 p.m.

I don't support racism but Why should you private doings on social media affect your professional life?

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-01 3:59 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]I don't support racism but Why should you private doings on social media affect your professional life?[/quote]

How would you like it if someone you worked with had views against you? Would you feel safe in that kind of environment, especially considering she did not exactly keep her views quiet?

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-01 3:59 p.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://theviolinchannel.com/austin-sym ... -comments/">https://theviolinchannel.com/austin-symphony-orchestra-trombonist-brenda-sansig-salas-fired-racist-comments/</LINK_TEXT>

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 4:06 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115040" time="1591041392" user_id="3494">
I don't support racism but Why should you private doings on social media affect your professional life?[/quote]

How would you like it if someone you worked with had views against you? Would you feel safe in that kind of environment, especially considering she did not exactly keep her views quiet?
</QUOTE>
was she making racist comments to on the job?

Otherwise, I don't think your employer should fore you based on what you wriye on facebook

slipperyjoe · 2020-06-01 4:25 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<LINK_TEXT text="https://theviolinchannel.com/austin-sym ... -comments/">https://theviolinchannel.com/austin-symphony-orchestra-trombonist-brenda-sansig-salas-fired-racist-comments/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

I'm glad this is getting press. Hopefully her private lesson referrals from schools will also dry up.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-06-01 4:30 p.m.

8Park, what you say on a public forum can reflect on your employer. It is implied that if they hired you they agreed with you. The comments posted on the Violin Channel seem to indicate that this person is a Trumpian with a tin ear toward African-Americans. Given this was broadcast, the Orchestra needed to distance itself from her in order to avoid offending African-American subscribers and patrons.

If she just expressed these feelings to herself or her close friends this might not have been so offensive.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 4:36 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]8Park, what you say on a public forum can reflect on your employer. It is implied that if they hired you they agreed with you. The comments posted on the Violin Channel seem to indicate that this person is a Trumpian with a tin ear toward African-Americans. Given this was broadcast, the Orchestra needed to distance itself from her in order to avoid offending African-American subscribers and patrons.

If she just expressed these feelings to herself or her close friends this might not have been so offensive.[/quote]
I see your point and definetly in todays world firing her would be neccesary but maybe we should learn to be more tolerant of others views and seperate the artist from the person.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 4:44 p.m.

Someone already wrote about intolerance on both sides of the issue in this thread. I wrote about redemption.

When a person attributes certain negative stereotypes to an entire race it is difficult to tolerate, which is what she did in those posts of hers. She might be a terrific artist and person outside these views but, as at least a couple of posters pointed out, in the end it is about keeping subscribers and it is hard to do so when a person goes so public with her views. I get your view point but the reality in this situation outstrips the ideal.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 4:51 p.m.

:space4: [quote="norbie2018"]Someone already wrote about intolerance on both sides of the issue in this thread. I wrote about redemption.

When a person attributes certain negative stereotypes to an entire race it is difficult to tolerate, which is what she did in those posts of hers. She might be a terrific artist and person outside these views but, as at least a couple of posters pointed out, in the end it is about keeping subscribers and it is hard to do so when a person goes so public with her views. I get your view point but the reality in this situation outstrips the ideal.[/quote]
I agree 100%

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-01 4:55 p.m.

Racism is a heinous system of institutionalized subjugation, exploitation, marginalization and violence.

Why should it be tolerated in any way, shape or form?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 5:06 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]Racism is a heinous system of institutionalized subjugation, exploitation, marginalization and violence.

Why should it be tolerated in any way, shape or form?[/quote]
Because freedom of speech is a thing.

It would be different if she was going around her place of work and makind rude comments but no, she posted them on her private facebook account which has no affiliation to her employer.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 5:08 p.m.

Also it's important to remember than fear of someone different than you is a natural human instinct. It's not easy to cleanse yourself of it. Especially of you were raised in a more racist enviornment.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 5:11 p.m.

I will agree that it should not be tolerated, but do you have no compassion for the person with those views, or are you willing to simply cast their entire being aside as trash? We're talking about human beings on both sides here, who by the very nature of being alive deserve compassion and empathy and love. Something makes a person have hateful views and until we talk about those views under the light of reason with that person we have no chance of changing views and attitudes.

You may know the story of the musician Daryl Davis who actively seeks out Klan members and convinces those who will listen to him to change. To me, that's the only way we're going to change a person's hatred to love, by one person talking with another person, human to human. <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 5:26 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]I will agree that it should not be tolerated, but do you have no compassion for the person with those views, or are you willing to simply cast their entire being aside as trash? We're talking about human beings on both sides here, who by the very nature of being alive deserve compassion and empathy and love. Something makes a person have hateful views and until we talk about those views under the light of reason with that person we have no chance of changing views and attitudes.

You may know the story of the musician Daryl Davis who actively seeks out Klan members and convinces those who will listen to him to change. To me, that's the only way we're going to change a person's hatred to love, by one person talking with another person, human to human. <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
yes

I just want to put this into persepctive here. She made a bad choice and posted some slightly innapropiate comments on facebook and as a result her life is basicaly ruined. She was fired from all her jobs and internationally humiliated. I'm sure every trombonist in the and probably most classical musicians and many non musicians are aware of this story, probably due to the current events causing people to overdramatise. The story has even made it to many major news outlets. She prbably won't ever be able to get a decent job again and alot of people are going to leave her. Her life is ruined. I'm not saying racism is ok but the the response is major overkill.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-01 5:51 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115057" time="1591045861" user_id="2978">
I will agree that it should not be tolerated, but do you have no compassion for the person with those views, or are you willing to simply cast their entire being aside as trash? We're talking about human beings on both sides here, who by the very nature of being alive deserve compassion and empathy and love. Something makes a person have hateful views and until we talk about those views under the light of reason with that person we have no chance of changing views and attitudes.

You may know the story of the musician Daryl Davis who actively seeks out Klan members and convinces those who will listen to him to change. To me, that's the only way we're going to change a person's hatred to love, by one person talking with another person, human to human. <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
yes

I just want to put this into persepctive here. She made a bad choice and posted some slightly innapropiate comments on facebook and as a result her life is basicaly ruined. She was fired from all her jobs and internationally humiliated. I'm sure every trombonist in the and probably most classical musicians and many non musicians are aware of this story, probably due to the current events causing people to overdramatise. The story has even made it to many major news outlets. She prbably won't ever be able to get a decent job again and alot of people are going to leave her. Her life is ruined. I'm not saying racism is ok but the the response is major overkill.
</QUOTE>

Hopefully it will keep other idiot’s mouths shut. You know people are literally dying, and you’re concerned about her not going to be able to play professionally. There’s always a dollar general she can work at, suits her better anyways.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 5:56 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115059" time="1591046784" user_id="3494">

yes

I just want to put this into persepctive here. She made a bad choice and posted some slightly innapropiate comments on facebook and as a result her life is basicaly ruined. She was fired from all her jobs and internationally humiliated. I'm sure every trombonist in the and probably most classical musicians and many non musicians are aware of this story, probably due to the current events causing people to overdramatise. The story has even made it to many major news outlets. She prbably won't ever be able to get a decent job again and alot of people are going to leave her. Her life is ruined. I'm not saying racism is ok but the the response is major overkill.[/quote]

Hopefully it will keep other idiot’s mouths shut.

You know people are literally dying, and you’re concerned about her not going to be able to play professionally. There’s always a dollar general she can work at, suits her better anyways.
</QUOTE>
then why are making such a big deal out of this in the first place?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:03 p.m.

And anyway, fear mongering is not going to solve the racism problem in any shape or form. Just silence it

Gary · by **Gary** » 2020-06-01 6:06 p.m.

First, I think what was posted is abhorrent. I find it, personally, repugnant.

Second, a right that distinguishes democracies like our own is freedom of speech, a precious right. It is permissible as long as it is not against the law. I am not aware of any law these comments violate.

Regarding comments reflecting poorly on an employer, she was acting solely in a personal manner and not as a representative of the organization of which she is a member. Nor did she express her opinion on any official company media.

Silencing opposing opinion, even when you find it ugly, is a right that must continue to be protected. One man's offensive post today is another one's tomorrow. You have to be careful what you wish for.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:07 p.m.

[quote="Gary"]First, I think what was posted is abhorrent. I find it, personally, repugnant.

Second, a right that distinguishes democracies like our own is freedom of speech, a precious right. It is permissible as long as it is not against the law. I am not aware of any law these comments violate.

Regarding comments reflecting poorly on an employer, she was acting solely in a personal manner and not as a representative of the organization of which she is a member. Nor did she express her opinion on any official company media.

Silencing opposing opinion, even when you find it ugly, is a right that must continue to be protected. One man's offensive post today is another one's tomorrow. You have to be careful what you wish for.[/quote]
precisely

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:10 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Gary" post_id="115066" time="1591049184" user_id="4286">
First, I think what was posted is abhorrent. I find it, personally, repugnant.

Second, a right that distinguishes democracies like our own is freedom of speech, a precious right. It is permissible as long as it is not against the law. I am not aware of any law these comments violate.

Regarding comments reflecting poorly on an employer, she was acting solely in a personal manner and not as a representative of the organization of which she is a member. Nor did she express her opinion on any official company media.

Silencing opposing opinion, even when you find it ugly, is a right that must continue to be protected. One man's offensive post today is another one's tomorrow. You have to be careful what you wish for.[/quote]
precisely
</QUOTE>
And what really disturbs me is that I'm sure not that many people are looking at her facebook page and here we have people purpousfully sharing these posts just to they will be well known enough that they can report her, ban her from facebook, and in the end: get her fired.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-01 6:11 p.m.

This person created a hostile environment for their section, orchestra colleagues, and ticket holders. Words like theirs are not harmless, and while they are protected from prosecution by the first amendment (subject to certain limits), nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. Forgiveness requires that the offender recognize their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and atone for it. So far none of this has happened. Forgiveness also does not imply that there can be no consequences for actions.

At some point, we have to be pragmatic. Yes, it's worth celebrating when a racist is redeemed. That's not what is happening here. If that person wants to set that goal for themself after losing their career, and being publicly shamed after making public racist comments, then good for them. That does not erase what they did, and I'd argue it wouldn't even make it right. This bell cannot be un-rung.

If I wanted to forgive someone I sat next to for being a terrible person, I would go to church.

I don't go to church.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:20 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]This person created a hostile environment for their section, orchestra colleagues, and ticket holders. Words like theirs are not harmless, and while they are protected from prosecution by the first amendment (subject to certain limits), nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. Forgiveness requires that the offender recognize their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and atone for it. So far none of this has happened. Forgiveness also does not imply that there can be no consequences for actions.

At some point, we have to be pragmatic. Yes, it's worth celebrating when a racist is redeemed. That's not what is happening here. If that person wants to set that goal for themself after losing their career, and being publicly shamed after making public racist comments, then good for them. That does not erase what they did, and I'd argue it wouldn't even make it right. This bell cannot be un-rung.

If I wanted to forgive someone I sat next to for being a terrible person, I would go to church.

I don't go to church.[/quote]
I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?

harrisonreed · 2020-06-01 6:24 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="paulyg" post_id="115069" time="1591049493" user_id="3299">
This person created a hostile environment for their section, orchestra colleagues, and ticket holders. Words like theirs are not harmless, and while they are protected from prosecution by the first amendment (subject to certain limits), nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. Forgiveness requires that the offender recognize their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and atone for it. So far none of this has happened. Forgiveness also does not imply that there can be no consequences for actions.

At some point, we have to be pragmatic. Yes, it's worth celebrating when a racist is redeemed. That's not what is happening here. If that person wants to set that goal for themself after losing their career, and being publicly shamed after making public racist comments, then good for them. That does not erase what they did, and I'd argue it wouldn't even make it right. This bell cannot be un-rung.

If I wanted to forgive someone I sat next to for being a terrible person, I would go to church.

I don't go to church.[/quote]
I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?
</QUOTE>

Since when is Facebook a private forum?

If you humiliate and embarrass yourself on something that clearly was NOT a private forum, why wouldn't your employer take action? It's no different than if a police officer did the same on their FB account, or if someone who worked at whole foods was supporting extremist environmental terrorism on their account. If you do that in a way that gathers attention, which this has, you've already embarrassed and humiliated YOURSELF, and all that's left is for your employer to fire you for the legitimate reason of bringing bad press and putting the company in a bad light.

That's how the world works outside of student land.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-01 6:25 p.m.

[quote="Gary"]First, I think what was posted is abhorrent. I find it, personally, repugnant.

Second, a right that distinguishes democracies like our own is freedom of speech, a precious right. It is permissible as long as it is not against the law. I am not aware of any law these comments violate.

Regarding comments reflecting poorly on an employer, she was acting solely in a personal manner and not as a representative of the organization of which she is a member. Nor did she express her opinion on any official company media.

Silencing opposing opinion, even when you find it ugly, is a right that must continue to be protected. One man's offensive post today is another one's tomorrow. You have to be careful what you wish for.[/quote]

Id rather her keep her opinion to herself than to go out of her way to spread hate multiple times. Music is all about coming together to create something special with others She did not deserve her job and i am personally glad with the outcome of this situation.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-01 6:26 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]This person created a hostile environment for their section, orchestra colleagues, and ticket holders. Words like theirs are not harmless, and while they are protected from prosecution by the first amendment (subject to certain limits), nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. Forgiveness requires that the offender recognize their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and atone for it. So far none of this has happened. Forgiveness also does not imply that there can be no consequences for actions.

At some point, we have to be pragmatic. Yes, it's worth celebrating when a racist is redeemed. That's not what is happening here. If that person wants to set that goal for themself after losing their career, and being publicly shamed after making public racist comments, then good for them. That does not erase what they did, and I'd argue it wouldn't even make it right. This bell cannot be un-rung.

If I wanted to forgive someone I sat next to for being a terrible person, I would go to church.

I don't go to church.[/quote]

Sums it up nicely. Thanks.

slipperyjoe · 2020-06-01 6:28 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115070" time="1591050025" user_id="3494">

I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?[/quote]

Since when is Facebook a private forum?
</QUOTE>

Can FB posting be done privately? Are there private chat rooms? Is these something the trombonist in question could have taken advantage of in order to discuss her racist views with like-minded people?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:30 p.m.

I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:32 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="115071" time="1591050280" user_id="3642">

Since when is Facebook a private forum?[/quote]

Can FB posting be done privately? Is this something the trombonist in question could have activated to discuss racist views with like-minded people?
</QUOTE>
yes

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-06-01 6:34 p.m.

I'd like to remind everyone, because it seems we are horrifically not even to this point yet: blatant racism is in 99% of contracts a reason for a no-questions-asked termination. It's up there with sexual harassment and pedophilia. I'm surprised there are people who don't see it this way.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:34 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115070" time="1591050025" user_id="3494">

I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?[/quote]

Since when is Facebook a private forum?

If you humiliate and embarrass yourself on something that clearly was NOT a private forum, why wouldn't your employer take action? It's no different than if a police officer did the same on their FB account, or if someone who worked at whole foods was supporting extremist environmental terrorism on their account. If you do that in a way that gathers attention, which this has, you've already embarrassed and humiliated YOURSELF, and all that's left is for your employer to fire you for the legitimate reason of bringing bad press and putting the company in a bad light.

That's how the world works outside of student land.
</QUOTE>
except terrorism is illegal.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-06-01 6:35 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.[/quote]

This is a naive view. Musicians are the very face of their organization. The public that supports the orchestra will know if a member of that orchestra was posting racist comments publicly, which is the case here. There may even have been a clause in her contact that forbids her from expressing certain views or opinions publicly, or putting the company in a bad light. In either case, the employer has every right to cut dead weight out from their organization, especially when times are already so hard for orchestras.

slipperyjoe · 2020-06-01 6:36 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="slipperyjoe" post_id="115074" time="1591050522" user_id="9188">

Can FB posting be done privately? Is this something the trombonist in question could have activated to discuss racist views with like-minded people?[/quote]
yes
</QUOTE>

Hmmmm. Is it then reasonable to assume that a educated person with a somewhat public profile would know to discuss views to which an employer might object privately?

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-01 6:37 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.[/quote]

You are 14. I doubt you know much about playing in an orchestra, or working for that matter.

A little hypocritical for me to be saying that but still needed to make that point

harrisonreed · 2020-06-01 6:40 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="115071" time="1591050280" user_id="3642">

Since when is Facebook a private forum?

If you humiliate and embarrass yourself on something that clearly was NOT a private forum, why wouldn't your employer take action? It's no different than if a police officer did the same on their FB account, or if someone who worked at whole foods was supporting extremist environmental terrorism on their account. If you do that in a way that gathers attention, which this has, you've already embarrassed and humiliated YOURSELF, and all that's left is for your employer to fire you for the legitimate reason of bringing bad press and putting the company in a bad light.

That's how the world works outside of student land.[/quote]
except terrorism is illegal.
</QUOTE>

I don't think you've got a leg to stand on, and I don't think you actually know what you're talking about. Expressing support for eco-terrorism is actually NOT illegal either, but gets you fired (and put on watch-lists). You're just living in an idealised world, but your perspective will be different when you get hired by someone willing to shell out for what you have to offer. Worry about these things in eight years, after you've experienced more things, graduated, and had to work a little.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:43 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115075" time="1591050637" user_id="3494">
I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.

This is a naive view. Musicians are the very face of their organization. The public that supports the orchestra will know if a member of that orchestra was posting racist comments publicly, which is the case here. There may even have been a clause in her contact that forbids her from expressing certain views or opinions publicly, or putting the company in a bad light. In either case, the employer has every right to cut dead weight out from their organization, especially when times are already so hard for orchestras.[/quote]
I understand and I never said she was in the right. I just think that the response was overkill. Of course though that also reflects our current time and events.</QUOTE>

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-06-01 6:46 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="slipperyjoe" post_id="115053" time="1591044927" user_id="9188">
Racism is a heinous system of institutionalized subjugation, exploitation, marginalization and violence.

Why should it be tolerated in any way, shape or form?[/quote]
Because freedom of speech is a thing.

It would be different if she was going around her place of work and makind rude comments but no, she posted them on her private facebook account which has no affiliation to her employer.
</QUOTE>

US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that Freedom of Speech does not permit you to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

We also have carveouts in Protected Speech to disallow hate speech. You are not permitted to say things to incite hatred against any group. Thus antisemitic speech as presented by Hitler in the period between the two World Wars would be disallowed in the US.

8Park, you are in Israel. Do you think it is in anybody's best interest to denigrate Palestinian viewpoints or for the Arabs to want to "Push the Jews Into the Sea"? These points of view have just served to continue an abrasive situation for the last 72 years.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-06-01 6:47 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]

I understand and I never said she was in the right. I just think that the response was overkill. Of course though that also reflects our current time and events.[/quote]

Putting aside right and wrong, for a minute, if the contract said "you will not express racist or extremist views contrary to the ideals of the orchestra publicly", then what would you think?

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-01 6:48 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115075" time="1591050637" user_id="3494">
I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.[/quote]

You are 14. I doubt you know much about playing in an orchestra, or working for that matter.

A little hypocritical for me to be saying that but still needed to make that point
</QUOTE>

Don't worry, Elow. It doesn't take advanced age to recognize another person's naiveté. Good work!

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:49 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115085" time="1591051408" user_id="3494">

I understand and I never said she was in the right. I just think that the response was overkill. Of course though that also reflects our current time and events.[/quote]

Putting aside right and wrong, for a minute, if the contract said "you will not express racist or extremist views contrary to the ideals of the orchestra publicly", then what would you think?
</QUOTE>
If that is what the contract says then yes.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-01 6:51 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that Freedom of Speech does not permit you to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.[/quote]

Steve Martin (ca. mid-70s) had a bit where he asked if it was o.k. to yell 'movie' in a crowded firehouse. That always made me laugh.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:51 p.m.

I see this argument is moving nowhere so lets agree to disagree

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 6:52 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="115086" time="1591051569" user_id="53">
US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that Freedom of Speech does not permit you to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.[/quote]

Steve Martin (ca. mid-70s) had a bit where he asked if it was o.k. to yell 'movie' in a crowded firehouse. That always made me laugh.
</QUOTE>
:lol:

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 6:59 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="115082" time="1591051031" user_id="8680">

You are 14. I doubt you know much about playing in an orchestra, or working for that matter.

A little hypocritical for me to be saying that but still needed to make that point[/quote]

Don't worry, Elow. It doesn't take advanced age to recognize another person's naiveté. Good work!
</QUOTE>

Just because he does not agree with your intolerance does not make him naive. Sometimes we can learn a lot if we just put our egos aside.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-01 7:00 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="paulyg" post_id="115069" time="1591049493" user_id="3299">
... nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. ...[/quote]
I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?
</QUOTE>

"Private" how? "Private" like hanging out in your basement and talking with a few buddies? Or "private" like nobody is going to find out, so it should be OK? Facebook is not private.

How about the woman who called the police on a birdwatcher in central park? She was fired and internationally humiliated, and she didn't post anything on social media. It was her hateful actions that destroyed her career and life. Don't conflate the relative anonymity and remote nature of online interactions with any sort of abstraction- hate is hate, whether it's expressed in private or in public, in person or from a distance, and it's the hate that's the issue here, not how it was expressed.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-01 7:03 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]I'd like to remind everyone, because it seems we are horrifically not even to this point yet: blatant racism is in 99% of contracts a reason for a no-questions-asked termination. It's up there with sexual harassment and pedophilia. I'm surprised there are people who don't see it this way.[/quote]

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 7:03 p.m.

I meant private as in private life that isn't related to the professional life.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-01 7:05 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="BurckhardtS" post_id="115078" time="1591050851" user_id="190">
I'd like to remind everyone, because it seems we are horrifically not even to this point yet: blatant racism is in 99% of contracts a reason for a no-questions-asked termination. It's up there with sexual harassment and pedophilia. I'm surprised there are people who don't see it this way.[/quote]

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.
</QUOTE>
EXACTLY. She is not the victim

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-01 7:06 p.m.

[/quote]

Because freedom of speech is a thing.

It would be different if she was going around her place of work and makind rude comments but no, she posted them on her private facebook account which has no affiliation to her employer.

[/quote]

She does have the freedom to say those things. That freedom protects you from facing legal trouble (and not in every case). The amendments do not ensure that you stay employed. If I was a teacher and brought a weapon to my classroom the second amendment wouldn't save me from being fired (nor would it save you from being arrested in this case).

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-01 7:26 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]I meant private as in private life that isn't related to the professional life.[/quote]

I feel that I've pretty clearly outlined how this person's actions bleed over from "private" into "public/professional" life. People don't usually lead multiple lives, there's just the one- with private and professional facets. The level of compartmentalization you are implying is a complete fabrication.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 7:30 p.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="BurckhardtS" post_id="115078" time="1591050851" user_id="190">
I'd like to remind everyone, because it seems we are horrifically not even to this point yet: blatant racism is in 99% of contracts a reason for a no-questions-asked termination. It's up there with sexual harassment and pedophilia. I'm surprised there are people who don't see it this way.[/quote]

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.
</QUOTE>
This is exactly my point.

Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-06-01 7:39 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Mv2541" post_id="115099" time="1591052583" user_id="247">

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.[/quote]
This is exactly my point.

Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.
</QUOTE>

Wait. That was exactly the opposite of your point, in opposition to your point....

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 7:44 p.m.

:| [quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115108" time="1591054249" user_id="3494">

This is exactly my point.

Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.[/quote]

Wait. That was exactly the opposite of your point, in opposition to your point....
</QUOTE>
Maybe I didn't say it the best way but I meant that it's overkill to be making a big fuss about this when POCs are being killed.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-01 7:48 p.m.

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting (sic) of people with racist views. and wducate (sic) them."

Seriously?

I feel like you need a serious reality check. These people don't want hugs.

"it's overkill to be making a big fuss about this when POCs are being killed."

How about MAKING THOSE RACIST COMMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE? WAS THAT "OVERKILL?"

Are you a troll, or do you actually have your head that far up your own ass?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-01 7:59 p.m.

The point is that people are doing all the wrong things to fight racism and I know that as an orchestra manager you gotta do what you gotta do but I don't think doing what were doing now where when someone makes a racist comment we fire them and shun them from our community is really very effective.

Anyway, I see this very unpoular so let's agree to disagree.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 8:01 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting (sic) of people with racist views. and wducate (sic) them."

Seriously?

I feel like you need a serious reality check. These people don't want hugs.

"it's overkill to be making a big fuss about this when POCs are being killed."

How about MAKING THOSE RACIST COMMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE? WAS THAT "OVERKILL?"

Are you a troll, or do you actually have your head that far up your own ass?[/quote]

That's really uncalled for. People are trying to have a civil discussion about a very emotional issue and have been doing quite well until this moment. There's always room to disagree but not to be disrespectful.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-01 8:05 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Mv2541" post_id="115099" time="1591052583" user_id="247">

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.[/quote]
This is exactly my point.

Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.
</QUOTE>
To your point <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-01 9:03 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]That's really uncalled for. People are trying to have a civil discussion about a very emotional issue and have been doing quite well until this moment. There's always room to disagree but not to be disrespectful.[/quote]

Respect is earned.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-06-01 9:13 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]The point is that people are doing all the wrong things to fight racism and I know that as an orchestra manager you gotta do what you gotta do but I don't think doing what were doing now where when someone makes a racist comment we fire them and shun them from our community is really very effective.

Anyway, I see this very unpoular so let's agree to disagree.[/quote]

Nothing is going to change until it is made clear that the behavior is unacceptable.

If they are NOT fired and shunned, it shows we are accepting that as normal and acceptable behavior.

Unless you think it IS completely acceptable. And it's not.

Edit added:

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again."

Actually I do hear you on that, and on the 14 year old level, I agree with you. That is the time (or maybe well past the time) to educate - that it's wrong and NOT acceptable.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-06-01 9:18 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115108" time="1591054249" user_id="3494">

This is exactly my point.

Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.[/quote]
To your point <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

Yes, that is an amazing story and that man is exceptionally brave and charismatic. I saw his story on "the story of us" I believe, on Netflix. We need more people like him, and each demographic and culture needs more people like him coming from their own group. What a great world we could have.

Putting that onus on a group like an orchestra might be wishful thinking.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-01 9:34 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115108" time="1591054249" user_id="3494">

This is exactly my point.

Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.[/quote]
To your point <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

I think that story highlights how racism stems from ignorance. People have views from what the media and culture around them tell them; perhaps they hate the idea of X fed from those sources without actually hating X itself. When they get to meet and know X, they realize that their preconceived notions may not be based on truth.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 12:38 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115114" time="1591055940" user_id="3494">
The point is that people are doing all the wrong things to fight racism and I know that as an orchestra manager you gotta do what you gotta do but I don't think doing what were doing now where when someone makes a racist comment we fire them and shun them from our community is really very effective.

Anyway, I see this very unpoular so let's agree to disagree.[/quote]

Nothing is going to change until it is made clear that the behavior is unacceptable.

If they are NOT fired and shunned, it shows we are accepting that as normal and acceptable behavior.

Unless you think it IS completely acceptable. And it's not.

Edit added:

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again."

Actually I do hear you on that, and on the 14 year old level, I agree with you. That is the time (or maybe well past the time) to educate - that it's wrong and NOT acceptable.
</QUOTE>

That's a good point.

The thing about racism though is it's a natural human instinct which probably explains why it's so hard to cure and it's also clear that it's very hard to educate adults to think differently. Maybe a good way to deal with it to first understand where the racism stems from since of course it doesn't come out of nowhere and then maybe use more gradual punishmemts like a temporary suspension or something.

But I think a big part of this is teaching people if we want to cure racism we will have to be a bit more patient towards racist individuals.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 1:24 a.m.

What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 1:39 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?[/quote]
Yes

I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 1:52 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="115123" time="1591060392" user_id="51">

Nothing is going to change until it is made clear that the behavior is unacceptable.

If they are NOT fired and shunned, it shows we are accepting that as normal and acceptable behavior.

Unless you think it IS completely acceptable. And it's not.

Edit added:

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again."

Actually I do hear you on that, and on the 14 year old level, I agree with you. That is the time (or maybe well past the time) to educate - that it's wrong and NOT acceptable.[/quote]

That's a good point.

The thing about racism though is it's a natural human instinct which probably explains why it's so hard to cure and it's also clear that it's very hard to educate adults to think differently. Maybe a good way to deal with it to first understand where the racism stems from since of course it doesn't come out of nowhere and then maybe use more gradual punishmemts like a temporary suspension or something.

But I think a big part of this is teaching people if we want to cure racism we will have to be a bit more patient towards racist individuals.
</QUOTE>

Since when is racism human instinct. I grew up in the middle of georgia with not a person of color in sight and yet me nor my friends are disrespectful or hateful. I don’t know what happens overseas to make you think everyone is born racist. Do you think a husky is going to treat a german shepherd any different than another dog? I hope not

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 1:56 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115146" time="1591075497" user_id="3131">
What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?[/quote]
Yes

I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough
</QUOTE>

I feel as though you're not putting yourself in the shoes (empathizing) with the players in her former orchestra that she was referring to.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 1:56 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115146" time="1591075497" user_id="3131">
What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?[/quote]
Yes

I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough
</QUOTE>

That is why racism has been an issue for literal centuries. It’s just accepted as the norm. That’s why these situation arise, we all know it’s bad but we’ve been doing it for so long it’s just being accepted. Nothing changes if we don’t, and i think it’s about damn time to change.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 2:18 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115148" time="1591076344" user_id="3494">

Yes

I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough[/quote]

I feel as though you're not putting yourself in the shoes (empathizing) with the players in her former orchestra that she was referring to.
</QUOTE>
I just said that I think she should be condemned and put on temporary leave or is that not good enough.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 2:19 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115148" time="1591076344" user_id="3494">

Yes

I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough[/quote]

That is why racism has been an issue for literal centuries. It’s just accepted as the norm. That’s why these situation arise, we all know it’s bad but we’ve been doing it for so long it’s just being accepted. Nothing changes if we don’t, and i think it’s about damn time to change.
</QUOTE>
I agree but we have to be very wise on how we deal with it.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 2:25 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115142" time="1591072735" user_id="3494">

That's a good point.

The thing about racism though is it's a natural human instinct which probably explains why it's so hard to cure and it's also clear that it's very hard to educate adults to think differently. Maybe a good way to deal with it to first understand where the racism stems from since of course it doesn't come out of nowhere and then maybe use more gradual punishmemts like a temporary suspension or something.

But I think a big part of this is teaching people if we want to cure racism we will have to be a bit more patient towards racist individuals.[/quote]

Since when is racism human instinct. I grew up in the middle of georgia with not a person of color in sight and yet me nor my friends are disrespectful or hateful. I don’t know what happens overseas to make you think everyone is born racist. Do you think a husky is going to treat a german shepherd any different than another dog? I hope not
</QUOTE>
It's called Implicit bias.

I don't know if you're a dog owner but my dog is often hostile towards other breeds and often isn't to his own.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 2:41 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115150" time="1591077390" user_id="3131">

I feel as though you're not putting yourself in the shoes (empathizing) with the players in her former orchestra that she was referring to.[/quote]
I just said that I think she should be condemned and put on temporary leave or is that not good enough.
</QUOTE>

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 2:44 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115153" time="1591078738" user_id="3494">

I just said that I think she should be condemned and put on temporary leave or is that not good enough.[/quote]

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.
</QUOTE>

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 2:57 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115156" time="1591080108" user_id="3131">

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.[/quote]

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.
</QUOTE>

In an ideal world, someone wouldn't have those views, much less express them in a public place.

Mv2541 · by **Mv2541** » 2020-06-02 2:57 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115156" time="1591080108" user_id="3131">

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.[/quote]

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.
</QUOTE>

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 3:03 a.m.

[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115157" time="1591080283" user_id="3494">

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.[/quote]

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.
</QUOTE>
You're acting like I don't support fighting racism.

Just because I have a different perspective than most people doesn't mean I'm racist or don't support the fight for it.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 3:19 a.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Mv2541" post_id="115159" time="1591081071" user_id="247">

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.[/quote]
You're acting like I don't support fighting racism.

Just because I have a different perspective than most people doesn't mean I'm racist or don't support the fight for it.
</QUOTE>

Then this is an odd hill to die on.

LeTromboniste · 2020-06-02 8:43 a.m.

With regards to that trombonist's situation. There is no private life on Facebook, particularly when you are a public figure. When you have people sponsoring your employment, even less so (you can bet the sponsors of the principal trombone chair whose names were listed right next to hers on concert programmes and on the website are among the "other key members" referred to in the ASO statement). When you are the public face of an organisation, which orchestra members very much are, you don't get to decide when you speak in your own name or what part of what you say can reflect on your organisation.

People need to stop it with the free speech and "mob tribunal"/accused, tried and sentenced hypocrisy. There is no 100% free speech anywhere in the world, not even in the US. (And by the way there are many countries that have more restrictions on free speech than the US and are still better functioning democracies where people are effectively more free. Americans don't have a monopoly on defining what freedom means.) In any case, free speech protects you from prosecution and punishment by the state, not from being fired or humiliated or shunned by your peers or losing a platform you are not inherently entitled to. Was she arrested? No? Executed or put in jail? No? Then there is no breach of her free speech rights. This isn't a mob tribunal, people who find her statements disgusting are also exercising their free speech rights when they denounce her.

With regards to police reaction to the current protests: yes of course there are countless law enforcement officers who do their job out of a sense of duty and a need to selflessly serve their community, and nobody is disputing that. But it is incredibly naive to not acknowledge that, given the nature of the job, many, many are attracted to it at least in part because of the power it can give them over other people. It's also very naive not to realise that it is much to the advantage of police forces to employ such people, even if it's highly problematic in some regards.

Permanent anti-riot squads in particular are notorious, at least where I'm from, for prizing such qualities as agressivity, lack of discernment and empathy, and not so covert intolerance towards otherness (POC, LGBTQ, students, intellectuals, etc.) in their members. Ad hoc anti-riot forces (usually street cops pitching in overtime) are usually not as bad, but what kind of cops you think are more likely to sign up for that overtime, nice cops who just want to serve their community (and are maybe sympathetic, or enclined to be, to the protester's cause) or cops who enjoy the opportunity to blow off some steam and play GI Joe? Again not saying that's all of them, but it's either really naive or disingenuous to refuse to see that there is a huge problem there, especially in the current, very explosive situation.

Last thing I want to say. After centuries of domination, of racism, appropriation, after slavery and countless crimes against humanity perpetrated all in the interest of white people (it doesn't matter that some of these are over and we didn't ourselves take part in, we still benefit from them as a group), it really isn't our place as whites to decide the terms of how racism should be dealt with and what the appropriate response from POC to their people being lynched should be.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-06-02 8:59 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]With regards to that trombonist's situation. There is no private life on Facebook, particularly when you are a public figure.[/quote]

Rabbit hole, totally (or at least mostly) off topic and irrelevant,

but, seriously? An orchestra player is a public figure? Maybe in our own minds - but the importance of classical music to the rest of the population is perhaps not as large as we think.

Ask the average American, who can probably name every player on the Washington Redskins squad, to come up with a single classical player on any instrument, and you can safely bet they won't know any.

Anyway, that idea caught my attention, now you can all return to the argument/discussion.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2020-06-02 9:34 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="115178" time="1591101790" user_id="3038">
With regards to that trombonist's situation. There is no private life on Facebook, particularly when you are a public figure.[/quote]

Rabbit hole, totally (or at least mostly) off topic and irrelevant,

but, seriously? An orchestra player is a public figure? Maybe in our own minds - but the importance of classical music to the rest of the population is perhaps not as large as we think.

Ask the average American, who can probably name every player on the Washington Redskins squad, to come up with a single classical player on any instrument, and you can safely bet they won't know any.

Anyway, that idea caught my attention, now you can all return to the argument/discussion.
</QUOTE>

Fame is not necessary for a figure to be public. No matter how small its audience is, the musicians are public faces of an orchestra. It doesn't matter that the average American doesn't know them. The patrons of the organisation do, so do the donors and the local music community. Local aspiring musicians know them and look up to them. And they are known by these people *because* of the position they hold. So yes, holding that job makes you a public figure, however big or small or whether local or state-wide or national or international.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-02 10:14 a.m.

The trombonist in question was listed (online) by school systems as a private lesson instructor. That makes them a public figure within their community.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-06-02 11:55 a.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]The trombonist in question was listed (online) by school systems as a private lesson instructor. That makes them a public figure within their community.[/quote]

That's a stretch, to put it mildly. Nobody cares what a trombone player thinks.

The lesson here especially for the younger viewers is that social media WILL get you in trouble. You may or may not disagree with the consequences that ensue, but careless use of social media IS likely to result in consequences.

You don't need to be a public figure for that to be true. I know a Walmart employee who was fired for a Facebook comment about management. What you type is there, somewhere, forever.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-02 12:01 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="slipperyjoe" post_id="115186" time="1591107250" user_id="9188">
The trombonist in question was listed (online) by school systems as a private lesson instructor. That makes them a public figure within their community.[/quote]

That's a stretch, to put it mildly. Nobody cares what a trombone player thinks.

The lesson here especially for the younger viewers is that social media WILL get you in trouble. You may or may not disagree with the consequences that ensue, but careless use of social media IS likely to result in consequences.

You don't need to be a public figure for that to be true. I know a Walmart employee who was fired for a Facebook comment about management. What you type is there, somewhere, forever.
</QUOTE>

Sigh.

The trombonist in question works (or worked) directly with children via school system referrals. That makes them a public figure within their community. Any teacher, myself included, will attest to this.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-06-02 12:06 p.m.

Orchestras in GB usually have clauses about not discussing the orchestra on public forums. Also clauses about bringing the orchestra into disrepute by posts on public forums.

That makes it breach of contract to do what she did. She probably had that kind of contract.

Chris

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-06-02 12:13 p.m.

The First Amendment was intended to permit individuals to disagree with Government policy and express that disagreement.

It does not shield from slander, lies, hate speech, or incitement to riot.

It does not shield you from civil consequences of your actions. For example if you were to post a comment that your boss is an idiot, you can be fired for that.

There is another special carveout for whistleblowers (people who expose illegal or unethical activities in Government or Private Industry). In fact, Trump's firing of all the Inspectors General because he disagrees with their investigations should be considered abuse of power.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 12:23 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Mv2541" post_id="115159" time="1591081071" user_id="247">

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.[/quote]
You're acting like I don't support fighting racism.

Just because I have a different perspective than most people doesn't mean I'm racist or don't support the fight for it.
</QUOTE>

But you are saying that we need to accept more racists and that the all ending cure for racism it to just wait until people want to change their mind. I don’t know, but to me, sounds a little suspicious

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 12:31 p.m.

I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.

Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.

brumpone · by **brumpone** » 2020-06-02 12:46 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]The lesson here especially for the younger viewers is that social media WILL get you in trouble. You may or may not disagree with the consequences that ensue, but careless use of social media IS likely to result in consequences.

You don't need to be a public figure for that to be true. I know a Walmart employee who was fired for a Facebook comment about management. What you type is there, somewhere, forever.[/quote]

Yes. I cannot think of any job I've had where someone making similar remarks on FB or any like platform would not be instantly dismissed for gross misconduct on the grounds of bringing the organisation into disrepute.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-06-02 1:00 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.

Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.[/quote]

When you try to advocate for someone who espouses racism, you can't convince anybody you don't agree with them.

If you want to be an apologist for racists you become like the 3 cops who stood by while one of their comrades choked a person to death.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-02 1:01 p.m.

My final employer (I'm retired) made it abundantly clear in the employee handbook that any social media posts or other public behavior reasonably considered offensive (typically with respect to protected classes) would be grounds for disciplinary action, including termination.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 1:08 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115201" time="1591115463" user_id="3494">
I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.

Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.[/quote]

When you try to advocate for someone who espouses racism, you can't convince anybody you don't agree with them.

If you want to be an apologist for racists you become like the 3 cops who stood by while one of their comrades choked a person to death.
</QUOTE>
I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 1:21 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="115205" time="1591117236" user_id="53">

When you try to advocate for someone who espouses racism, you can't convince anybody you don't agree with them.

If you want to be an apologist for racists you become like the 3 cops who stood by while one of their comrades choked a person to death.[/quote]
I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.
</QUOTE>

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-06-02 1:27 p.m.

But the second chance may not mean she keeps her job, but rather, finds another one with a forgiving employer.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 1:29 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115207" time="1591117721" user_id="3494">

I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.[/quote]

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.
</QUOTE>

Again... what do you say to the members of her former orchestra that she was referring to? To forgive and forget?

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 1:32 p.m.

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 1:34 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What you propose?[/quote]
Of course, if it happened more than once it's a different story

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-06-02 1:39 p.m.

It would be interesting to learn how many orchestra members would have flat-out refused to rehearse or perform with that particular musician if she hadn't been fired.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 1:47 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?[/quote]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 1:50 p.m.

:idea: [quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115212" time="1591119134" user_id="2978">
Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?[/quote]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.
</QUOTE>
I understand how they might feel but also in life sometimes you have to forgive or at least learn to deal with it.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 1:56 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115212" time="1591119134" user_id="2978">
Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?[/quote]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.
</QUOTE>
It's also pretty naive to go around thinking that people need to do everything for you so that you'll feel comfortable.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 2:06 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115212" time="1591119134" user_id="2978">
Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?[/quote]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.
</QUOTE>

I can't help but feel you are pretty sheltered yourself. My attitude is born out of suffering, the suffering I have caused myself and others, and the forgiveness I have received for my sins from my God, from others, and myself.

I take it you've never studied major religions or the premises laid out by them? One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

BTW, you never answered my questions.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 2:20 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115217" time="1591120033" user_id="3131">

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.[/quote]

I can't help but feel you are pretty sheltered yourself. My attitude is born out of suffering, the suffering I have caused myself and others, and the forgiveness I have received for my sins from my God, from others, and myself.

I take it you've never studied major religions or the premises laid out by them? One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

BTW, you never answered my questions.
</QUOTE>
exactly

You'll be going around with the no forgiveness attitude until you mess up and want forgiveness.

Personally, I have messed up many times and gotten forgiven each time. When you're in a situation like this it makes you understand how important it is to forgive people.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-02 2:31 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?[/quote]

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead. It’s not like you’re affecting the outcome in this particular instance. However, forgiveness isn’t cheap. I think you don’t understand what it means to actually forgive someone- they have to want it, and show that they are ready for it. Otherwise, you are just sticking your head in the sand.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 2:42 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115212" time="1591119134" user_id="2978">
Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?[/quote]

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead. It’s not like you’re affecting the outcome in this particular instance. However, forgiveness isn’t cheap. I think you don’t understand what it means to actually forgive someone- they have to want it, and show that they are ready for it. Otherwise, you are just sticking your head in the sand.
</QUOTE>

No, forgiveness is not cheap but what's the other option? Resentment and bitterness and hatred, just some of the things this woman has spouted off. I don't want that in my life. As I wrote, "The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so."

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-02 2:53 p.m.

Then you're being selfish by dismissing her actions, or calling for the consequences to be tempered, in the name of forgiveness. The other option is the only path forward. Those with the power to meet actions like this with justice, must.

In our capacity, we should put forgiveness on the shelf for a while. I think that we should demand that our colleagues, students, and teachers hold themselves to a high standard of conduct, especially when it comes to eliminating injustice and racism.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 3:02 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]Then you're being selfish by dismissing her actions, or calling for the consequences to be tempered, in the name of forgiveness. The other option is the only path forward. Those with the power to meet actions like this with justice, must.

In our capacity, we should put forgiveness on the shelf for a while. I think that we should demand that our colleagues, students, and teachers hold themselves to a high standard of conduct, especially when it comes to eliminating injustice and racism.[/quote]

I never once posted that her actions should be dismissed, nor that she should not be held accountable for her actions, nor did I ever mean to imply that, because that would be wrong.

You didn't read my previous post:

"One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

Gary · by **Gary** » 2020-06-02 3:05 p.m.

At the risk of repeating myself, one better be careful that what you want muzzled in someone else today doesn't translate to someone wanting to muzzle you tomorrow. Also, some of you are confusing the disliking what was said with the right to say it.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 3:16 p.m.

It seems like a lot of people here are using a very black and white mentality.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 3:31 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.

Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.[/quote]

You said “if we were more accepting of racists then it would help solve the problem”. Please tell me how that is different from “we should accept racists”

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 3:33 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115207" time="1591117721" user_id="3494">

I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.[/quote]

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.
</QUOTE>

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 3:38 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115221" time="1591121213" user_id="2978">

I can't help but feel you are pretty sheltered yourself. My attitude is born out of suffering, the suffering I have caused myself and others, and the forgiveness I have received for my sins from my God, from others, and myself.

I take it you've never studied major religions or the premises laid out by them? One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

BTW, you never answered my questions.[/quote]
exactly

You'll be going around with the no forgiveness attitude until you mess up and want forgiveness.

Personally, I have messed up many times and gotten forgiven each time. When you're in a situation like this it makes you understand how important it is to forgive people.
</QUOTE>

If it’s an accident, then they will be forgiven. But if someone goes out of their way 3 times to make a hateful post, then she should be dealt with accordingly. What did she think was going to happen when she posted 3 seperate racist comments. How idiotic do you have to be to think posting racist comments won’t backfire on you. She knew what she was doing

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 3:46 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115209" time="1591118489" user_id="2978">

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.[/quote]

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect
</QUOTE>
This is a perfect example of black and white thinking. I for the 100th time will say that somebody who does such a thing should be punished but not leave it at that and to also try and educate them.

I hope you realize that it's possible to do both

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 3:59 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="115236" time="1591126432" user_id="8680">

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect[/quote]
This is a perfect example of black and white thinking. I for the 100th time will say that somebody who does such a thing should be punished but not leave it at that and to also try and educate them.

I hope you realize that it's possible to do both
</QUOTE>
So you would like her to be educated to treat everyone equal? How do you suppose someone does that

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-06-02 4:01 p.m.

I pointed out above that according to one professor sensitivity studies in fact reinforce existing beliefs. What seemed to work was people of various races working together and getting to know one another.

u_8parktoollover · 2020-06-02 4:03 p.m.

For one, maybe a bit of a more leniant punishment and not firing her completely. It would give her the opportunity to understand that what she did wan't ok and have a chance at redeeming herself.

But anyway silencing racism is not the same as ending racism.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 4:08 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115209" time="1591118489" user_id="2978">

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.[/quote]

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect
</QUOTE>

The other person has inherent worth and their sin does not define them as a person. The only way you can get the other person to change their way of thinking is to find common ground and build a relationship based on that. It is a choice: do we want to ostracize a person for the rest of their lives based on their wrong or accept them back into the fold?

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 4:09 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115239" time="1591127199" user_id="3494">

This is a perfect example of black and white thinking. I for the 100th time will say that somebody who does such a thing should be punished but not leave it at that and to also try and educate them.

I hope you realize that it's possible to do both[/quote]
So you would like her to be educated to treat everyone equal? How do you suppose someone does that
</QUOTE>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-06-02 4:13 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.[/quote]

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

u_8parktoollover · 2020-06-02 4:24 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115217" time="1591120033" user_id="3131">
I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.[/quote]

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.
</QUOTE>
If there is a severe punishment like a year of unpayed leave then I don't see how she wouldn't learn something from that

And on the second part, you realize that it's pretty much impossible to recover from this.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 4:24 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="115217" time="1591120033" user_id="3131">
I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.[/quote]

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.
</QUOTE>

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-06-02 4:29 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="BurckhardtS" post_id="115258" time="1591128828" user_id="190">

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.[/quote]

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.
</QUOTE>
As I mentioned. People will hold on to this mentality until they need to be forgiven. I don't mean to attack anybody but this mentality is very common among young naive people. Of course it might be hypocritical for me to say that but I think it's safe to say I've had some experiances a lot of people will never have.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 5:50 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="115243" time="1591127945" user_id="8680">

So you would like her to be educated to treat everyone equal? How do you suppose someone does that[/quote]

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 5:54 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="BurckhardtS" post_id="115258" time="1591128828" user_id="190">

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.[/quote]
If there is a severe punishment like a year of unpayed leave then I don't see how she wouldn't learn something from that

And on the second part, you realize that it's pretty much impossible to recover from this.
</QUOTE>

I will say once again, there is a world of opportunities outside the music realm. Whether or not the employer wants a racist is a different problem for her.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 5:59 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]<QUOTE author="BurckhardtS" post_id="115258" time="1591128828" user_id="190">

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.[/quote]
If there is a severe punishment like a year of unpayed leave then I don't see how she wouldn't learn something from that

And on the second part, you realize that it's pretty much impossible to recover from this.
</QUOTE>

Again, she posted 3 separate times. What did she think that would accomplish. She should’ve known that this would affect her negatively.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-06-02 6:03 p.m.

[quote="8parktoollover"]For one, maybe a bit of a more leniant punishment and not firing her completely. It would give her the opportunity to understand that what she did wan't ok and have a chance at redeeming herself.

But anyway silencing racism is not the same as ending racism.[/quote]

This country has a long history of racism.

During the 1960s, the South was controlled by vocal, avowed racists. They had been elected, and did things that make the reaction's to this week's protests look like a summer camp capture-the-flag game.

You know what changed things? The Civil Rights Act. All of the sudden, it became easier for Black people to vote. Most of those people were voted out. They were "fired." THAT is when things started to change.

A few did change their views later in life (some rather famously). A few didn't. The point is, though, that "silencing" racism is not the issue here- it's having racists in positions of power and responsibility, where they damage the fabric of our society. Someone earlier pointed out that this trombone player was an instructor at local schools. A huge part of the job of anyone in the performing arts is outreach and education. I'd say her ability to do that that is directly compromised by her views and actions.

If she chooses to reform her views, then great. However, she made her bed with those comments. I wouldn't be surprised if she can never find a job playing trombone again, and honestly, I think that's fair. She abused the power and responsibility that came with her job in the first place. There is no way that I'd let her on stage with me. If word got out, there would be a protest in the audience.

This should be a reminder to everyone that your employer does not owe you anything, beyond a paycheck and safe working conditions, free from discrimination. She should have no expectation of ever working in this field again, let alone in Austin.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 6:06 p.m.

[quote="paulyg"]<QUOTE author="8parktoollover" post_id="115248" time="1591128203" user_id="3494">
For one, maybe a bit of a more leniant punishment and not firing her completely. It would give her the opportunity to understand that what she did wan't ok and have a chance at redeeming herself.

But anyway silencing racism is not the same as ending racism.[/quote]

This country has a long history of racism.

During the 1960s, the South was controlled by vocal, avowed racists. They had been elected, and did things that make the reaction's to this week's protests look like a summer camp capture-the-flag game.

You know what changed things? The Civil Rights Act. All of the sudden, it became easier for Black people to vote. Most of those people were voted out. They were "fired." THAT is when things started to change.

A few did change their views later in life (some rather famously). A few didn't. The point is, though, that "silencing" racism is not the issue here- it's having racists in positions of power and responsibility, where they damage the fabric of our society. Someone earlier pointed out that this trombone player was an instructor at local schools. A huge part of the job of anyone in the performing arts is outreach and education. I'd say her ability to do that that is directly compromised by her views and actions.

If she chooses to reform her views, then great. However, she made her bed with those comments. I wouldn't be surprised if she can never find a job playing trombone again, and honestly, I think that's fair. She abused the power and responsibility that came with her job in the first place. There is no way that I'd let her on stage with me. If word got out, there would be a protest in the audience.

This should be a reminder to everyone that your employer does not owe you anything, beyond a paycheck and safe working conditions, free from discrimination. She should have no expectation of ever working in this field again, let alone in Austin.
</QUOTE>
This

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 6:21 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115254" time="1591128585" user_id="2978">

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes">https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.
</QUOTE>

Educating or befriending, call it what you want, but this black man through a personal relationship with a KKK member was able to make him change his mind. He put a little bit more love in the world. Can you not see how that's worthwhile?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 6:27 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="115268" time="1591134657" user_id="8680">

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.[/quote]

Educating or befriending, call it what you want, but this black man through a personal relationship with a KKK member was able to make him change his mind. He put a little bit more love in the world. Can you not see how that's worthwhile?
</QUOTE>

Go ahead and start a mass reeducation program. I'm not totally kidding.

In the meantime, she's going to get fired.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-06-02 6:30 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="115268" time="1591134657" user_id="8680">

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.[/quote]

Educating or befriending, call it what you want, but this black man through a personal relationship with a KKK member was able to make him change his mind. He put a little bit more love in the world. Can you not see how that's worthwhile?
</QUOTE>

We know about this guy because he's a rarity. Rest assured, the KKK does not invite Black or Jewish members.

About the best we can hope for is to clean our own houses.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 6:38 p.m.

Something I take away from his story is that change happens when one person works with another person. I agree with you that we should clean our own houses but in doing so we can have a profound influence on those around us.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-06-02 6:59 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="BurckhardtS" post_id="115258" time="1591128828" user_id="190">

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.[/quote]

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.
</QUOTE>

"You posted racist comments publicly, in violation of the terms of your employment. You're fired. We forgive you"

Seems OK to me. Do you expect to be forgiven for being fired from a job from any of the myriad of other legitimate reasons to be fired from a job?

"You caused bodily injury to others for operating a mill improperly. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You tried selling drugs to children at a local park. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You failed to report for work on a critical day of the cycle. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You violated sexual harassment policy at the company, which includes behavior on and off the clock in accordance with our contract. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You suck at your job. You're fired. We forgive you"

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 7:03 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115260" time="1591129476" user_id="2978">

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.[/quote]

"You posted racist comments publicly, in violation of the terms of your employment. You're fired. We forgive you"

Seems OK to me. Do you expect to be forgiven for being fired from a job from any of the myriad of other legitimate reasons to be fired from a job?

"You caused bodily injury to others for operating a mill improperly. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You tried selling drugs to children at a local park. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You failed to report for work on a critical day of the cycle. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You violated sexual harassment policy at the company, which includes behavior on and off the clock in accordance with our contract. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You suck at your job. You're fired. We forgive you"
</QUOTE>
It gets tiring to repeat the same Concepts over and over again, but I will for your sake. I never said that a person shouldn't be judged and have an appropriate punishment for their actions. What I'm stating, and have stated several times so far, is that a person needs a opportunity for Redemption.

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-06-02 7:12 p.m.

I'd say she's the one with the onus of redemption, not us.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-06-02 7:14 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="115284" time="1591138753" user_id="3642">

"You posted racist comments publicly, in violation of the terms of your employment. You're fired. We forgive you"

Seems OK to me. Do you expect to be forgiven for being fired from a job from any of the myriad of other legitimate reasons to be fired from a job?

"You caused bodily injury to others for operating a mill improperly. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You tried selling drugs to children at a local park. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You failed to report for work on a critical day of the cycle. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You violated sexual harassment policy at the company, which includes behavior on and off the clock in accordance with our contract. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You suck at your job. You're fired. We forgive you"[/quote]

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.
</QUOTE>

My response was not tongue in cheek. It was deadly serious, from someone who is gainfully employed and happy to be so.

What world do you live in that you expect neighborly, idealistic behavior from an employer? Certainly not in capitalistic America. Businesses are not usually "in the business" of rehabilitating people, especially their employees. It is a noble pursuit to try to save the people around you, but come on man. An employer? When there are literally a thousand trombonists who would kill for that job? Or thousands of machinists on the dole right now, who would want that machinist job? You're in lala land.

I get the feeling that this is all hitting to close to home for some people, forcing them to take a look on the mirror. Just the feeling I get from some of these reactions.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-06-02 7:28 p.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]

It gets tiring to repeat the same Concepts over and over again, but I will for your sake. I never said that a person shouldn't be judged and have an appropriate punishment for their actions. What I'm stating, and have stated several times so far, is that a person needs a opportunity for Redemption.

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.[/quote]

I'm getting tired of repeating the same concepts over and over again too, but I will for your sake.

I don't think any of us would disagree or would not want to have a second shot at things if we've screwed up. I could give you a few very personal examples of things I've screwed up and wish I would have had a second shot at (and I'm only 24!). However, I never felt entitled to be given a second chance, and I have moved on if I wasn't. I've gotten lucky, and I've been burned.

You seem to be in some kind of airy fairy religion land with your choice of terminology. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's clear that those terms are not lining up with what we are talking about here. Care to explain?

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 7:31 p.m.

If you were serious I do apologize.

I think you're painting too broad a stroke when it comes to employer-employee relations. There are unions out there that have policies in place to force employers to give an employee a second chance. But even in non-union shops you have employers that are willing to give a person a second chance, depending on severity of the infraction. Naturally, there are some infractions that demand firing and in light of this trombonist situation, her employers had no choice.

harrisonreed · 2020-06-02 7:32 p.m.

I don't think second chances ever apply to racism or sexual harassment.... At least not so immediately after the infraction.

In this case, the chance at redemption is that some other employer will hire her later on down the line. Redemption and punishment usually happen at different times.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2020-06-02 7:35 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="115285" time="1591139015" user_id="2978">

It gets tiring to repeat the same Concepts over and over again, but I will for your sake. I never said that a person shouldn't be judged and have an appropriate punishment for their actions. What I'm stating, and have stated several times so far, is that a person needs a opportunity for Redemption.

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.[/quote]

I'm getting tired of repeating the same concepts over and over again too, but I will for your sake.

I don't think any of us would disagree or would not want to have a second shot at things if we've screwed up. I could give you a few very personal examples of things I've screwed up and wish I would have had a second shot at (and I'm only 24!). However, I never felt entitled to be given a second chance, and I have moved on if I wasn't. I've gotten lucky, and I've been burned.

You seem to be in some kind of airy fairy religion land with your choice of terminology. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's clear that those terms are not lining up with what we are talking about here. Care to explain?
</QUOTE>

Care to site exactly what airy fairy religion land concepts you're talkin about? I can then explain.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-06-02 7:39 p.m.

I give up, most of us are either too stubborn or stupid to change our mind. What’s done is done, and i’m happy. All this post has done is spread even more hate. I’m sorry if i was rude, but i think they took the right action.

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