Pros and cons of stripping lacquer
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
Why would someone want to strip their lacquer? Why wouldn’t they? I’m considered doing this to a elkhart 71H that has a couple bad battle scars, so could it take away previous signs of dents? Would it affect how the horn plays, i already love how it plays and i’d rather keep it ugly than to change completely how it plays.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Some claim that stripping the lacquer makes the horn more "lively". But the horn underneath has to be lively first. Stripping lacquer on a cheap Indian trombone is a fool's errand. This change is pretty subtle.
Stripping the lacquer will hide scratches and scuffs in the lacquer coating, but will not hide dents or scratches in the underlying metal.
The lacquer has a purpose. When you take it off you will find the instrument will start to oxidize. If you want it to be shiny you will have to polish it pretty regularly. You can make it stay shiny a bit longer by waxing the polished horn with a good automobile wax. Or you can let it turn into a brown color -- some folks like turd-colored instruments.
The lacquer used on this instrument is probably the Lustre-Conn epoxy finish and is VERY hard to remove. Some will claim that you can wire brush it off but that will probably affect the metal thickness (and will give you a scratch finish).
If it's not your horn, make sure the owner is OK with you doing this.
Stripping the lacquer will hide scratches and scuffs in the lacquer coating, but will not hide dents or scratches in the underlying metal.
The lacquer has a purpose. When you take it off you will find the instrument will start to oxidize. If you want it to be shiny you will have to polish it pretty regularly. You can make it stay shiny a bit longer by waxing the polished horn with a good automobile wax. Or you can let it turn into a brown color -- some folks like turd-colored instruments.
The lacquer used on this instrument is probably the Lustre-Conn epoxy finish and is VERY hard to remove. Some will claim that you can wire brush it off but that will probably affect the metal thickness (and will give you a scratch finish).
If it's not your horn, make sure the owner is OK with you doing this.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
Lacquer on a Conn is very much part of why it plays the way it does....leave it alone. If you strip it and don't like the result you can't put the lacquer back.
Chris
Chris
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="FOSSIL"]Lacquer on a Conn is very much part of why it plays the way it does....leave it alone. If you strip it and don't like the result you can't put the lacquer back.
Chris[/quote]
I guess i’ve made my decision
Chris[/quote]
I guess i’ve made my decision
- sterb225
- Posts: 126
- Joined: May 09, 2018
The first thing I did for every Bas h I ever owned was get the bell down to raw brass. Never on Conns or others. The Bachs always were better for the effort.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Please leave the lacquer on your Conn 71H – it's part of the instrument's character. :clever:
But feel free to have all dents removed, and slide and rotor serviced as necessary, by a first-class tech.
With a "Remington" shank mouthpiece, you'll have a wonderful bass trombone that will last a lifetime.
But feel free to have all dents removed, and slide and rotor serviced as necessary, by a first-class tech.
With a "Remington" shank mouthpiece, you'll have a wonderful bass trombone that will last a lifetime.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="Posaunus"]Please leave the lacquer on your Conn 71H – it's part of the instrument's character. :clever:[/quote]
Is it the same for all conns?
Is it the same for all conns?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Elow"]Is it the same for all conns?[/quote]
Truthfully, the effect of the lacquer on any instrument is relatively minor, unless the lacquer was poorly applied. In my experience, lacquer has never helped the sound. The before/after on a lacquer removal is subtle. It's really hard to distinguish. If anything, the removed lacquer gives it a slightly more immediate response. It's very slight.
I've removed lacquer from a few horns, and it has only ever been a positive change for me. I'd rather have a stripped horn than one with splotches of 40% lacquer. I wouldn't delacquer a horn with a nice lacquer job.
Either removing or replacing lacquer can effect the sound if it is done improperly, like removing too much material, or putting it on too thick. Removing lacquer with heat can also effect the way the horn plays. If you're going to do it, have a tech do it for you. Even techs send out big lacquer jobs to shops equipped to do it.
The other side of it is that raw brass can leave stains on your hands or clothes, and it can smell funny, When I have a horn de-lacquered, I usually put some kind of wrap on the neckpipe and grips.
Of my 6 trombones, only my original Elkhart 88h still has lacquer.
Truthfully, the effect of the lacquer on any instrument is relatively minor, unless the lacquer was poorly applied. In my experience, lacquer has never helped the sound. The before/after on a lacquer removal is subtle. It's really hard to distinguish. If anything, the removed lacquer gives it a slightly more immediate response. It's very slight.
I've removed lacquer from a few horns, and it has only ever been a positive change for me. I'd rather have a stripped horn than one with splotches of 40% lacquer. I wouldn't delacquer a horn with a nice lacquer job.
Either removing or replacing lacquer can effect the sound if it is done improperly, like removing too much material, or putting it on too thick. Removing lacquer with heat can also effect the way the horn plays. If you're going to do it, have a tech do it for you. Even techs send out big lacquer jobs to shops equipped to do it.
The other side of it is that raw brass can leave stains on your hands or clothes, and it can smell funny, When I have a horn de-lacquered, I usually put some kind of wrap on the neckpipe and grips.
Of my 6 trombones, only my original Elkhart 88h still has lacquer.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="115576" time="1591296135" user_id="158">
Please leave the lacquer on your Conn 71H – it's part of the instrument's character. :clever:[/quote]
Is it the same for all conns?
</QUOTE>
I don't know about "all Conns." But I have 4 different Conn trombones (including a 1969 71H which has a bit of lacquer "character" and a 1972 48H slide also with some worn lacquer, both purchased used and loved from TromboneChat members). The others (a 1970 79H and a 1972 88H) are still shiny and attractive. [I take good care of my instruments!] The appearance doesn't bother me (making music is not a beauty contest) – the trombones still play wonderfully.
I know some trombonists like the look or sound of unlacquered instruments. That's a personal preference and their choice; it's just not mine.
Please leave the lacquer on your Conn 71H – it's part of the instrument's character. :clever:[/quote]
Is it the same for all conns?
</QUOTE>
I don't know about "all Conns." But I have 4 different Conn trombones (including a 1969 71H which has a bit of lacquer "character" and a 1972 48H slide also with some worn lacquer, both purchased used and loved from TromboneChat members). The others (a 1970 79H and a 1972 88H) are still shiny and attractive. [I take good care of my instruments!] The appearance doesn't bother me (making music is not a beauty contest) – the trombones still play wonderfully.
I know some trombonists like the look or sound of unlacquered instruments. That's a personal preference and their choice; it's just not mine.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
My 4B, which I got new in the 7th grade, played really well as far as I knew. But trying to play 3rd in a big band in college, didn't cut it. Too dark & covered and really had to work to get close to the rest of the section.
Started with stripping the main tuning slide, and it helped. Decided to strip the entire bell flare and MAN what a HUGE difference!!! The horn lit up and sang!!!! All without doing ANYTHING else!!!
Borrowing from a VERY prominent trombonist and Educator nearby, the only thing that matters is everything!!!
Changing something might not be apparent to you, but could be INCREDIBLY different, positive or negative, to the person next to you!!!
Eric
Started with stripping the main tuning slide, and it helped. Decided to strip the entire bell flare and MAN what a HUGE difference!!! The horn lit up and sang!!!! All without doing ANYTHING else!!!
Borrowing from a VERY prominent trombonist and Educator nearby, the only thing that matters is everything!!!
Changing something might not be apparent to you, but could be INCREDIBLY different, positive or negative, to the person next to you!!!
Eric
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
I've been told that creases that have been repaired will show more prominently when the lacquer is removed.
If you decide to take it off, as everyone else has said, the epoxy lacquer is hard to get off. I my self have removed epoxy lacquer from a coprion bell using epoxy thinner. It's highly toxic and will burn your skin if you don't wear proper protection.
For the love of god don't sand, steel wool or scrape it off.
If you decide to take it off, as everyone else has said, the epoxy lacquer is hard to get off. I my self have removed epoxy lacquer from a coprion bell using epoxy thinner. It's highly toxic and will burn your skin if you don't wear proper protection.
For the love of god don't sand, steel wool or scrape it off.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I haven't noticed that about creases, actually just the opposite IF the crease compromises the lacquer.
And yes DO NOT SAND OR SCRAPE!!!! Unless of course you want a satin or brushed finish.
Eric
And yes DO NOT SAND OR SCRAPE!!!! Unless of course you want a satin or brushed finish.
Eric
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="Bonearzt"]I haven't noticed that about creases, actually just the opposite IF the crease compromises the lacquer.
And yes DO NOT SAND OR SCRAPE!!!! Unless of course you want a satin or brushed finish.
Eric[/quote]
I do like how a brushed finish looks, but i dont think i have the heart to purposefully scratch it.
And yes DO NOT SAND OR SCRAPE!!!! Unless of course you want a satin or brushed finish.
Eric[/quote]
I do like how a brushed finish looks, but i dont think i have the heart to purposefully scratch it.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
[quote="Bonearzt"]I haven't noticed that about creases, actually just the opposite IF the crease compromises the lacquer.
Eric[/quote]
We then it's something for me to consider. I have a 72H with an ugly bell I'm considering stripping the lacquer. It's just a huge pain in the ass to do so. And epoxy thinner ain't cheap.
Eric[/quote]
We then it's something for me to consider. I have a 72H with an ugly bell I'm considering stripping the lacquer. It's just a huge pain in the ass to do so. And epoxy thinner ain't cheap.
- bassbone721
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Jan 17, 2020
I'm not too knowledgeable in the finishes but I think there is a reason why not many trombones are silver plated when compared to say trumpets and euphoniums.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Elow"]Would it crazy to send it off to get silver plated?[/quote]
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
[quote="Elow"]Would it crazy to send it off to get silver plated?[/quote]
Plating involves buffing which will definitely change the sound/feel and may decrease its value.
You should post a pic so we can see exactly what we're dealing with.
Plating involves buffing which will definitely change the sound/feel and may decrease its value.
You should post a pic so we can see exactly what we're dealing with.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="115616" time="1591330857" user_id="8680">
Would it crazy to send it off to get silver plated?[/quote]
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.
</QUOTE>
I could use the valve section <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>
Would it crazy to send it off to get silver plated?[/quote]
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.
</QUOTE>
I could use the valve section <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="115616" time="1591330857" user_id="8680">
Would it crazy to send it off to get silver plated?[/quote]
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.
</QUOTE>
I love everything about it except how it looks and thankfully that doesn’t matter. But who doesn’t want their horn pretty. I was just curious because i saw some guy on youtube with a silver plated 73H
Would it crazy to send it off to get silver plated?[/quote]
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.
</QUOTE>
I love everything about it except how it looks and thankfully that doesn’t matter. But who doesn’t want their horn pretty. I was just curious because i saw some guy on youtube with a silver plated 73H
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
There are some schools that seem to prefer silver plated trombones. Best to buy them that way -- the cost of plating, which includes stripping and buffing, will be pretty steep.
I had two silver horns and really didn't hear much difference in how they played compared to lacquer cousins. Silver plate was also popular at the turn of the 20th Century, before lacquer sprayers were invented.
On the plus side, a silver plate will cover evidence of dent repairs.
I had two silver horns and really didn't hear much difference in how they played compared to lacquer cousins. Silver plate was also popular at the turn of the 20th Century, before lacquer sprayers were invented.
On the plus side, a silver plate will cover evidence of dent repairs.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="BGuttman"]There are some schools that seem to prefer silver plated trombones. Best to buy them that way -- the cost of plating, which includes stripping and buffing, will be pretty steep.
I had two silver horns and really didn't hear much difference in how they played compared to lacquer cousins. Silver plate was also popular at the turn of the 20th Century, before lacquer sprayers were invented.
On the plus side, a silver plate will cover evidence of dent repairs.[/quote]
For my school, we march everything silver plated. Luckily most of it is supplied by the school
I had two silver horns and really didn't hear much difference in how they played compared to lacquer cousins. Silver plate was also popular at the turn of the 20th Century, before lacquer sprayers were invented.
On the plus side, a silver plate will cover evidence of dent repairs.[/quote]
For my school, we march everything silver plated. Luckily most of it is supplied by the school
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Funny thing is that for some unknown reason, I cannot stand the sight of a silverplated large tenor or bass trombone!!
A small bore like a 2 or 3B or a Conn 6H or Bach 16 or smaller, AND a King SS Duo Gravis are all beautiful!!
But a silver 42 or 8H just grates on my eyeballs. Just one of those things that cannot be answered!!!
Eric
A small bore like a 2 or 3B or a Conn 6H or Bach 16 or smaller, AND a King SS Duo Gravis are all beautiful!!
But a silver 42 or 8H just grates on my eyeballs. Just one of those things that cannot be answered!!!
Eric
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
[quote="Bonearzt"]Funny thing is that for some unknown reason, I cannot stand the sight of a silverplated large tenor or bass trombone!!
A small bore like a 2 or 3B or a Conn 6H or Bach 16 or smaller, AND a King SS Duo Gravis are all beautiful!!
But a silver 42 or 8H just grates on my eyeballs. Just one of those things that cannot be answered!!!
Eric[/quote]
Lol. I know what you mean. I had a silver plated 72H ( I'd like to get back btw). I loved it. Would i get a horn silver plated again? NOPE.
I do like nickel bells though.
A small bore like a 2 or 3B or a Conn 6H or Bach 16 or smaller, AND a King SS Duo Gravis are all beautiful!!
But a silver 42 or 8H just grates on my eyeballs. Just one of those things that cannot be answered!!!
Eric[/quote]
Lol. I know what you mean. I had a silver plated 72H ( I'd like to get back btw). I loved it. Would i get a horn silver plated again? NOPE.
I do like nickel bells though.
- BrianAn
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Apr 15, 2020
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="115620" time="1591331946" user_id="158">
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.[/quote]
I love everything about it except how it looks and thankfully that doesn’t matter. But who doesn’t want their horn pretty. I was just curious because i saw some guy on youtube with a silver plated 73H
</QUOTE>
Do you have a link to the video?
You seem to be often unsatisfied with what you have. :idk:
If you don't like the looks of your 71H, sell it to someone who will treasure and love it as it is, and buy something shiny.[/quote]
I love everything about it except how it looks and thankfully that doesn’t matter. But who doesn’t want their horn pretty. I was just curious because i saw some guy on youtube with a silver plated 73H
</QUOTE>
Do you have a link to the video?
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
My experience is almost entirely within the Bach realm (though some minor Conn and significant Getzen/Edwards time).
I have stripped many horns. I generally prefer the experience of the horns without lacquer to the lacquered version. Is is "better"? I don't know. Freer? Sure. Brighter? Darker? Yeah... I don't know about that. It just generally feels more natural and clearer.
That said, I have a lot of horns currently. Of the 9 bells downstairs right now, 4 are unlacquered. Only one of those did I strip. None of them are the horns that I play on a regular basis. Two of the them are flares that I got brand new, unmounted, and I do not do lacquer myself. The fourth is an ancient flare that lost 95% of it's lacquer due to age. The horns that I pull out first are all lacquered. Would I like them more if I stripped them? Probably. Would it be worth it? Almost certainly not.
Much like my comment on some other things... The difference here is small. Very small. I wouldn't even necessarily catagorize it as 'Good' even though behind the bell I preferred it.
If you don't maintain a good polish, it does make for possibility of a really nasty looking horn with lots of water droplets. That's the main reason I haven't messed with most of my horns. The lacquer currently looks good, or good enough. No reason to strip them and have one more thing to clean (I don't do that on the others anyway, they look grungy).
Cheers,
Andy
I have stripped many horns. I generally prefer the experience of the horns without lacquer to the lacquered version. Is is "better"? I don't know. Freer? Sure. Brighter? Darker? Yeah... I don't know about that. It just generally feels more natural and clearer.
That said, I have a lot of horns currently. Of the 9 bells downstairs right now, 4 are unlacquered. Only one of those did I strip. None of them are the horns that I play on a regular basis. Two of the them are flares that I got brand new, unmounted, and I do not do lacquer myself. The fourth is an ancient flare that lost 95% of it's lacquer due to age. The horns that I pull out first are all lacquered. Would I like them more if I stripped them? Probably. Would it be worth it? Almost certainly not.
Much like my comment on some other things... The difference here is small. Very small. I wouldn't even necessarily catagorize it as 'Good' even though behind the bell I preferred it.
If you don't maintain a good polish, it does make for possibility of a really nasty looking horn with lots of water droplets. That's the main reason I haven't messed with most of my horns. The lacquer currently looks good, or good enough. No reason to strip them and have one more thing to clean (I don't do that on the others anyway, they look grungy).
Cheers,
Andy
- GavinFYoung
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Jan 10, 2022
[quote="BGuttman"]Some claim that stripping the lacquer makes the horn more "lively". But the horn underneath has to be lively first. Stripping lacquer on a cheap Indian trombone is a fool's errand. This change is pretty subtle.
Stripping the lacquer will hide scratches and scuffs in the lacquer coating, but will not hide dents or scratches in the underlying metal.
The lacquer has a purpose. When you take it off you will find the instrument will start to oxidize. If you want it to be shiny you will have to polish it pretty regularly. You can make it stay shiny a bit longer by waxing the polished horn with a good automobile wax. Or you can let it turn into a brown color -- some folks like turd-colored instruments.
The lacquer used on this instrument is probably the Lustre-Conn epoxy finish and is VERY hard to remove. Some will claim that you can wire brush it off but that will probably affect the metal thickness (and will give you a scratch finish).
If it's not your horn, make sure the owner is OK with you doing this.[/quote]
Can I get the lacquer stripped off of just a bell that isn’t removable?
Stripping the lacquer will hide scratches and scuffs in the lacquer coating, but will not hide dents or scratches in the underlying metal.
The lacquer has a purpose. When you take it off you will find the instrument will start to oxidize. If you want it to be shiny you will have to polish it pretty regularly. You can make it stay shiny a bit longer by waxing the polished horn with a good automobile wax. Or you can let it turn into a brown color -- some folks like turd-colored instruments.
The lacquer used on this instrument is probably the Lustre-Conn epoxy finish and is VERY hard to remove. Some will claim that you can wire brush it off but that will probably affect the metal thickness (and will give you a scratch finish).
If it's not your horn, make sure the owner is OK with you doing this.[/quote]
Can I get the lacquer stripped off of just a bell that isn’t removable?