What kind of black magic is this horn?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Plug in dependent 2nd valve. Most are custom. Kanstul made a stock plug in.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
Yeah, my friend David Whitwell also uses the same set up to play low B natural on his tenor and got it as a custom job. I believe Tom Hutchinson uses a similar set up on a Bach 45 for a few pieces in the modern orchestra rep with low B.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That guy needs a bigger mouthpiece
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
Sorta silly having a thayer valve while the plug in has a standard valve.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Thrawn22"]Sorta silly having a thayer valve while the plug in has a standard valve.[/quote]
kinda tough to make a plug-in Thayer.
kinda tough to make a plug-in Thayer.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I think he means that, even without the second valve engaged and the fancy open wrap on the F tubing, your normal F-side will not be open any more like an axial valve would normally be. It'll have the resistance of the smaller valve built in. Half of the draw of the axial is now gone.
How bad do guys need that low B? A better solution is the Zoltan valve wrap. Probably about the same cost, in the end.
How bad do guys need that low B? A better solution is the Zoltan valve wrap. Probably about the same cost, in the end.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
It's not just the valve, it's where the valve is. I'll bet that plays great.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Thrawn22"]Sorta silly having a thayer valve while the plug in has a standard valve.[/quote]
The idea is that you only have the slot-in valve installed when you really need it (depending on the literature one is playing, that may not be very often). The rest of the time, you're playing a single with a Thayer.
The idea is that you only have the slot-in valve installed when you really need it (depending on the literature one is playing, that may not be very often). The rest of the time, you're playing a single with a Thayer.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I think he means that, even without the second valve engaged and the fancy open wrap on the F tubing, your normal F-side will not be open any more like an axial valve would normally be. It'll have the resistance of the smaller valve built in. Half of the draw of the axial is now gone.
How bad do guys need that low B? A better solution is the Zoltan valve wrap. Probably about the same cost, in the end.[/quote]
Zoltan valve wrap?
How bad do guys need that low B? A better solution is the Zoltan valve wrap. Probably about the same cost, in the end.[/quote]
Zoltan valve wrap?
- pompatus
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="SwissTbone"]Zoltan valve wrap?[/quote]
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... 3959925135">https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente/instrument/kissbone-x/?lang=en?cookie-state-change=1593959925135</LINK_TEXT>
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="pompatus"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone">
Zoltan valve wrap?[/quote]
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... 3959925135">https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente/instrument/kissbone-x/?lang=en?cookie-state-change=1593959925135</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>
That's what I thought. But there's no second valve. So...?
Zoltan valve wrap?[/quote]
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
</QUOTE>
That's what I thought. But there's no second valve. So...?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
You could easily use a large bore valve for the dependent which will make less of a problem with that plug-in.
- u_8parktoollover
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Jul 06, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]That guy needs a bigger mouthpiece[/quote]
looks right to me.
looks right to me.
- fsgazda
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Jun 24, 2018
[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="pompatus" post_id="118836" time="1593960898" user_id="144">
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... 3959925135">https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente/instrument/kissbone-x/?lang=en?cookie-state-change=1593959925135</LINK_TEXT>
[/quote]
That's what I thought. But there's no second valve. So...?
</QUOTE>
Now, that's what I picture for a Black Magic Trombone.
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
[/quote]That's what I thought. But there's no second valve. So...?
</QUOTE>
Now, that's what I picture for a Black Magic Trombone.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="pompatus" post_id="118836" time="1593960898" user_id="144">
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... 3959925135">https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente/instrument/kissbone-x/?lang=en?cookie-state-change=1593959925135</LINK_TEXT>
[/quote]
That's what I thought. But there's no second valve. So...?
</QUOTE>
The wrap is designed for an easy B pull. Rather than add an entire second valve, you tune it to F like normal. The second tuning slide section near your hand can be pulled out giving you an easy B as needed. And then pushed back in all the way and you're in F again. That's a newer looking version. He had one where the B side was like a trumpet slide, and had a stopper on it, so it was really easy to do.
The Schagerl Kissbone, perhaps?
[/quote]That's what I thought. But there's no second valve. So...?
</QUOTE>
The wrap is designed for an easy B pull. Rather than add an entire second valve, you tune it to F like normal. The second tuning slide section near your hand can be pulled out giving you an easy B as needed. And then pushed back in all the way and you're in F again. That's a newer looking version. He had one where the B side was like a trumpet slide, and had a stopper on it, so it was really easy to do.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Huh? I don't see anywhere near enough tubing that can be pulled to get that valve section down to E.
Now I'm looking at the website, where you can see the stop. There might be just enough tubing there to get the flat F for a really good low C at the end of the slide, but you need MUCH more than that to get a B.
Now I'm looking at the website, where you can see the stop. There might be just enough tubing there to get the flat F for a really good low C at the end of the slide, but you need MUCH more than that to get a B.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
This is the version I know. You can see the stopper on the section near the user's hand. I have no idea if it works, but that's what they said it was for.
The older version didn't have nearly as much straight tubing in either tuning slide section. But this one does.
If you can riddle me what else that stopper would be for, I'd be interested in knowing what it was actually for!
He explains the mechanism at around 39:00 in this video:
<YOUTUBE id="6qUCDs93X6s">
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I have a plug-in valve for an old 72H that works very well. In that case, the horn still has the old closed wrap F attachment, so it's set up differently. Plays very well though.
I would think this would play well - free blowing while the valve isn't engaged, and maybe a bit "tighter" through the f valve than just a regular thayer. Maybe a more noticeable change to the 2nd valve than double thayers. I have an E flat tuning slide for the tenor thayer F attachment - works very well for low B's except for having to use different positions for all the valve notes while the longer slide is in.
By the way - is the original picture a tenor or a bass? Bell looks bigger to me, but could just be the way the picture was taken.
Jim Scott
I would think this would play well - free blowing while the valve isn't engaged, and maybe a bit "tighter" through the f valve than just a regular thayer. Maybe a more noticeable change to the 2nd valve than double thayers. I have an E flat tuning slide for the tenor thayer F attachment - works very well for low B's except for having to use different positions for all the valve notes while the longer slide is in.
By the way - is the original picture a tenor or a bass? Bell looks bigger to me, but could just be the way the picture was taken.
Jim Scott
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
<ATTACHMENT filename="DSC_0384.JPG" index="0">[attachment=0]DSC_0384.JPG</ATTACHMENT>
A super strong, thin stainless median tube used for maximum pull?
Would this work?
A super strong, thin stainless median tube used for maximum pull?
Would this work?
- LeoInFL
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Apr 19, 2018
I think Zoltan demonstrates the B-natural switch on his Kissbone better than he explains it. It's not the short tuning slide by the valve by itself, but in combination with a pull of the F-attachment tuning slide. That's why there is a stop rod on both tuning slides: with the short tuning slide all the way in, tune the attachment tubing for 'F' (set one of the stop rod nuts on the attachment tuning slide at this point). Next, pull the short tuning slide almost all the way out (set the short stop rod nut here) and then pull the attachment tuning slide out until the B-natural is in tune (set the 2nd stop rod nut on the attachment tuning slide as the final step). He shows how easy it is to switch to 'B' tuning by pulling both tuning slides til they hit their respective stop nuts, without even pulling the horn away from his face.