Okay customizers, what would you do with this?

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-05 8:00 p.m.

I recently acquired this euphonium 4th valve “F section”. I’m kinda playing with the idea of flipping the valve and mounting it on a donor straight trombone. It would be actuated by the first finger. What would you do with it?

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Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-07-05 8:18 p.m.

Probably way too large in bore for anything without a huge step up and down.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-07-06 1:38 a.m.

Yeah... depending on what you got that off of the bore might be massive or an odd size. I'd probably take measurements first before you did anything...

That doesn't look like a compensating valve...? Is that from a noncomp horn like those noncomp side 4th valve Besson or Yamaha 641 Euphs?

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-06 2:30 a.m.

It’s off some old Chinese horn. Not sure what or who. Valve works and has good compression. Bore size through the tubing is .547 ID. Here it is mocked up on a bell section. I ran out of solder so I can’t actually put it together until morning. It looks weird at first but it’s actually super comfortable/ergonomic to hold. It’s fun to tinker.

<ATTACHMENT filename="325A8CC3-4A0B-4E95-8B08-7630F37E9BB6.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~325A8CC3-4A0B-4E95-8B08-7630F37E9BB6.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>
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Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-07-06 2:37 a.m.

That’s pretty cool, i would try and have it convertible to a minor second for some cello music. Not sure how but i saw a video of a dude taking the clamp part of a lyre and cutting it off and using that to tighten and loosen tubing. Might have to add a counterweight for that though.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-07-06 5:55 a.m.

Elow, you probably saw the recent YouTube by Trent Hamilton showing a 100 year old horn with a trill valve. Trill valves were used on "solo" instruments back then. I don't think you can reconfigure that section to be a trill valve, though.

There was a Bach trombone available with a piston valve F-Attachment. II had a brochure for one when I was a kid.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-07-06 7:46 a.m.

Man,

I've been looking for a decent .562 and .593 donor piston sections for years to do this. Of course, I'm not willing to spend any money on it so that gets in the way of this project for me.

Looks like this will be fun!

Andy

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-07-06 8:31 a.m.

This will be an interesting experiment and might answer some old questions about bore size through tubing.

If you put that .547 attachment on a .547 horn, it might play well into the upper range where most people don't use valves. If so you'd be better off with G or some other choice than F.

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-06 9:40 a.m.

The horn it’s going on is an old Yamaha .525 bore that had a damaged rotor knuckle, and no lacquer left. The knuckles on the piston valve fit perfectly into the slide receiver and gooseneck sockets. I need to dig around and find a better ferrule for the gooseneck socket before I solder it up.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-07-06 12:49 p.m.

Perfect!

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-07-06 1:24 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Elow, you probably saw the recent YouTube by Trent Hamilton showing a 100 year old horn with a trill valve. Trill valves were used on "solo" instruments back then. I don't think you can reconfigure that section to be a trill valve, though.

There was a Bach trombone available with a piston valve F-Attachment. II had a brochure for one when I was a kid.[/quote]

I did not... just found his youtube channel. Thank you so much! This dude is cool. I mainly said that because i had to learn bach cello suites for a test and it had a lot of trills that were half steps, or at least my teacher wanted them to be half steps

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-06 6:01 p.m.

I can’t tell if this is getting out of hand or awesome...

Lol. Sometimes I should probably stop and wonder if I should, rather than if I could.

Now to design a linkage for the rotor...

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Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-07-06 6:40 p.m.

That’s pretty cool

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-07-06 9:05 p.m.

[quote="Amconk"]I can’t tell if this is getting out of hand or awesome...[/quote]

If you ever have to ask this question, the answer is always "keep going".

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-07 1:25 a.m.

Progress! I successfully cut the second trigger down to Gb so now it uses standard bass tuning. Did a bit of cleanup on some of the solder joints. Tomorrow I’m going to fab a linkage for the rotor. Got some spare brass bar stock and I’m gonna play around.

It’s a bit awkward to hold at first but after you adjust it feels pretty natural.

<ATTACHMENT filename="04088967-15E6-469E-9F25-5D1DF7ABB183.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~04088967-15E6-469E-9F25-5D1DF7ABB183.jpeg</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="CB6331FA-EFB0-46DF-AC83-1850B04231EB.jpeg" index="1">~~[attachment=1]~~CB6331FA-EFB0-46DF-AC83-1850B04231EB.jpeg</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="08C932DD-FF0A-4175-8998-3F05B2909626.jpeg" index="2">~~[attachment=2]~~08C932DD-FF0A-4175-8998-3F05B2909626.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-07-07 3:15 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]If you ever have to ask this question, the answer is always "keep going".[/quote]
I think you mean "D*mn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!"

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-07-07 9:33 a.m.

Haven't screwed it up yet, might as well keep going!.

Looks like a fun project, I hate the making levers stage.

Andy

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2020-07-09 1:11 p.m.

That's the beauty of using a piston valve section like that for an attachment......no levers! Of course, you might need to be very creative with your bracing, but the levers are not an issue.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-07-09 2:31 p.m.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]That's the beauty of using a piston valve section like that for an attachment......no levers! Of course, you might need to be very creative with your bracing, but the levers are not an issue.[/quote]

I think he's referring to the old rotor (which I thought was bad and you needed to replace).

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-09 8:49 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Crazy4Tbone86" post_id="119362" time="1594314673" user_id="8392">
That's the beauty of using a piston valve section like that for an attachment......no levers! Of course, you might need to be very creative with your bracing, but the levers are not an issue.[/quote]

I think he's referring to the old rotor (which I thought was bad and you needed to replace).
</QUOTE>

I did! I had another Yamaha rotor already. So I went ahead and did the rotorectomy while I had it off and then put the section back on.

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-09 8:51 p.m.

<ATTACHMENT filename="6ED7376E-B771-4ECE-96CD-8F1F69EA7FED.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~6ED7376E-B771-4ECE-96CD-8F1F69EA7FED.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>Presenting, the double trigger tenor with piston valve F. I... don’t think it’s going to catch on but it was fun as heck to build. I learned a ton about the geometry of rotor linkages. You should see my reject pile... ignore the sloppy solder on the thumb ring. My clamp slipped. Gonna have to clean that up...

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-09 9:00 p.m.

Quick vid of the valve action

<YOUTUBE id="SJrTnOaKUv4">https://youtu.be/SJrTnOaKUv4</YOUTUBE>

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-07-09 10:52 p.m.

How does it feel in the hand when playing?

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-09 11:45 p.m.

I’m not gonna lie: it’s awkward. The hand position feels fine. Ergonomically it all works. But having your hand up higher on the bell section than normal feels weird. The balance seems off. If I was to play it all the time, I would probably get used to it, but this project was mainly for repair and build practice.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-07-10 2:14 a.m.

A play test would be cool...

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-10 2:40 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]A play test would be cool...[/quote]

I’ll try to get one tomorrow

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-07-10 8:09 a.m.

[quote="Amconk"]I’m not gonna lie: it’s awkward.[/quote]

This computer doesn't get youtube, I'll watch later.

But your photo gave me carpal tunnel just looking at it. thanks much!

Amconk · by **Amconk** » 2020-07-10 3:08 p.m.

Here’s a short vid of playing using the valves. Forgive the sound, all I could find in a small shank mouthpiece was a CL, and the rim is so sharp on those!! Never did care for it.

<YOUTUBE id="bUbI_rEOvDE">https://youtu.be/bUbI_rEOvDE</YOUTUBE>

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Okay customizers, what would you do with this?