longer conical area

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-10 4:37 p.m.

can I extend the conical area of an alto trombone by installing a longer conical leadpipe?

I have a B&S alto where the lines up out of tune. i think the cylindrical area is too long in relation to the conical area. :bassclef: Bb :space5: is extremly to low.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-07-10 5:03 p.m.

It's not uncommon for some German altos have leadpipes that are the length of the upper tube.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-10 5:27 p.m.

if i put the B&S slide section on my Bach 39 the tuning is much better. So i think the conical area in the tuning slide of the B&S alto is to short.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-07-10 10:25 p.m.

Is it a current model B&S Alto? they are fairly well regarded, so I wouldn't think they would have intonation issues. Have you contacted them or someone familiar with trombone design?

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-11 3:44 a.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]Is it a current model B&S Alto? they are fairly well regarded, so I wouldn't think they would have intonation issues. Have you contacted them or someone familiar with trombone design?[/quote]
My B&S alto is from 1995. I can not find any alto on their current website, so i think it is not longer build.

Next week i will go to my favorit repairs man and ask him. Perhaps a new tuning slide will solve the problem.

We will see.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-07-11 4:12 a.m.

I did it by cutting the tuning slides. Mine is a 36H, so I don't really care about 7th position

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-11 6:49 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I did it by cutting the tuning slides. Mine is a 36H, so I don't really care about 7th position[/quote]
Seems to be an easy solution. You have shortened the cylindrical area.

But so, you must pull your slide a bit out to get the 1th position, right?

Is it so short, that the pitch is nearly in E ?

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2020-07-11 10:29 a.m.

I can't figure out from your original post which pitch or pitches are out of tune. Please describe your pitch problems in words relative to alto clef. For example......the 1st position G at the top of the staff is sharp.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-07-11 7:03 p.m.

[quote="heinzgries"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="119538" time="1594455157" user_id="3642">
I did it by cutting the tuning slides. Mine is a 36H, so I don't really care about 7th position[/quote]
Seems to be an easy solution. You have shortened the cylindrical area.

But so, you must pull your slide a bit out to get the 1th position, right?

Is it so short, that the pitch is nearly in E ?
</QUOTE>

No, it's not nearly that sharp, but I do usually play long on the slide anyways. This puts Db at the bell.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-12 5:12 a.m.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]I can't figure out from your original post which pitch or pitches are out of tune. Please describe your pitch problems in words relative to alto clef. For example......the 1st position G at the top of the staff is sharp.[/quote]
I try to do this with the pic below. Hope it helps.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-07-12 8:19 a.m.

Heinz, this looks like the very reason Harrison had his tuning slide shortened. If you were to cut around 6 mm from the slide you may find that you can play in tune if you put 1st position out around 3 mm from the bumper.

Alternatively, it could be that there is a mismatch between your mouthpiece and the instrument. I found on my Conn 36H that the Conn 7C it came with had better consistency across the partials than anything else, including a Bach 7C. But I prefer the sound I get with my old Bach 4C so I humor the intonation issues.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2020-07-12 12:42 p.m.

Yes, your horn is completely normal. It’s just that it is a little flat. As Bruce said......just cut a little off your tuning slide. I guess that is what your original question was.....I just couldn’t figure out what you meant by “cylindrical area.”

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-07-12 12:58 p.m.

Saying that one partial is "in tune" and everything else is flat seems like an odd way of looking at it.

The whole horn is flat and one note is sharp.

First I would look at shortening the mouthpiece by a good bit. It may very well need a different style of backbore. Make a major correction and all of the harmonics will probably shift, not all the same way, then you'll have a different and maybe better perspective.

I would at least try it from the mouthpiece/leadpipe end before cutting the horn.

One more random thought - people laugh at AcoustiCoils, which are rolled-up plastic strips to be inserted in the tuning slide leg or other places (seems like a ridiculous idea) but that is a way to change the effective taper in an area like a tuning slide and try it in different places to see if it corrects anything.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-12 1:55 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Alternatively, it could be that there is a mismatch between your mouthpiece and the instrument. I found on my Conn 36H that the Conn 7C it came with had better consistency across the partials than anything else, including a Bach 7C. But I prefer the sound I get with my old Bach 4C so I humor the intonation issues.[/quote]
I use a Doug Elliot MT 99 C+ with a D alto S shank or a Klier 5 G with smaller shank. Both goes 1.06 inch into the leadpipe.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-12 2:27 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]One more random thought - people laugh at AcoustiCoils, which are rolled-up plastic strips to be inserted in the tuning slide leg or other places (seems like a ridiculous idea) but that is a way to change the effective taper in an area like a tuning slide and try it in different places to see if it corrects anything.[/quote]
Hello Doug,

do you mean like this?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-07-12 3:00 p.m.

It's a special poduct intended to be placed in the bow of the tuning slide. I couldn't get a picture of it from the site, sorry. Note that any old plastic strip will NOT be the same.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-12 4:07 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]It's a special poduct intended to be placed in the bow of the tuning slide. I couldn't get a picture of it from the site, sorry. Note that any old plastic strip will NOT be the same.[/quote]
Thanks Bruce,

does a thin brass tube do the same job? I have different sizes.

I think one of the diameters will fit.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-07-12 4:20 p.m.

Try it in different places. Make a wire hook so you can pull it back out. I think the larger side would be more likely to have an effect.

I can make you a shorter shank to try. I'll be making shanks in a few days.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-12 5:09 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Try it in different places. Make a wire hook so you can pull it back out. I think the larger side would be more likely to have an effect.

I can make you a shorter shank to try. I'll be making shanks in a few days.[/quote]
I already play an alto S shank from you. It goes deep enough into the leadpipe (1.06 inch)

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-07-12 6:01 p.m.

[quote="heinzgries"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="119660" time="1594585204" user_id="51">
I can make you a shorter shank to try. I'll be making shanks in a few days.[/quote]
I already play an alto S shank from you. It goes deep enough into the leadpipe (1.06 inch)
</QUOTE>

But you're trying to correct a problem. It's relatively easy for me to make special shanks - I would try about 10mm shorter, and make it go into the leadpipe the same distance.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-07-12 7:02 p.m.

[quote="heinzgries"]<QUOTE author="Crazy4Tbone86" post_id="119550" time="1594477769" user_id="8392">
I can't figure out from your original post which pitch or pitches are out of tune. Please describe your pitch problems in words relative to alto clef. For example......the 1st position G at the top of the staff is sharp.[/quote]
I try to do this with the pic below. Hope it helps.

</QUOTE>

Are you already playing with he tuning slide pushed in all the way? If not, you should start doing that. Or, at the very least, time your horn so that Db is in tune with the edge of the bell. Then your note will no longer be flat across the board.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-07-13 5:44 a.m.

Today I tested the other extremely. 2 mouthpieces by Werner Chr. Schmidt. Once the F.A.H. 1 and the Ed Kruspe 3. both are very long (3.45 inches). They both only fit .866 inches into the leadpipe of the B&S alto. It's curious, but the result was almost perfect.

Btw thanks for all your information and helpfull response.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/m ... ombone.htm">https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/mouthpieces-trombone.htm</LINK_TEXT>

sgreatwood · by **sgreatwood** » 2020-07-15 1:16 a.m.

Good afternoon,

Doug's suggestion of the shorter shank should really be the first option to try, especially now that you've found two other mouthpieces that play in tune. I'm not familiar with those two, but the original 2 you mentioned (DE99 & 5C) may just be too large for your alto and/or playing to cope with in general. If the horn was originally designed for a very small/shallow mouthpiece, the cup size of those two may be more the problem.

But, listen to Doug.

Simon

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-07-15 2:21 a.m.

Well, he said the two longer mouthpieces corrected it. It's not unusual to see the opposite effect from what you'd expect - maybe they're small with shallow cups and small throat & backbore, so the overall volume is less.

With a larger rim size it would need a shallower cup and shorter shank. Both ways work.

Quick Links

Instruments

Marketplace

longer conical area