"Frankenstein-ing" a Trombone

jimmymclark · 2020-07-14 7:45 a.m.

I'm interested in a medium bore trombone that can be converted to a valve or straight neck at will. Thought about buying a cheap Bach 36 and letting a shop do the conversion. I've also thought about trying to piece together an Edwards or Shires from used components. The cheapest used Bach 36 factory convertible horn I've seen out there is around $2000, but I feel like I can build an Edwards or Shires from used parts for that price or only a little more, and still have more long term flexibility with the instrument for future changes.

I have a few questions:

-With either Shires or Edwards, is there just one standard conventional rotor valve size that suits both large and medium bore horns?

-Does the separate valve and straight neck pipe need to match the brand of the bell

(i.e. Edwards valve for Edwards bell, etc)?

-Is it possible/advisable to pair an Edwards bell with a Shires slide or visa versa?

-Is there a better or more efficient way to do what I'm trying to achieve?

Thanks for your input.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-07-14 7:59 a.m.

A conversion is not something you can do '"on the fly". I have a Bach 36C but I almost never use the straight pipe. It's a bit too much bother to swap out.

One thing: the way the Shires and Edwards horns fit together is different so you can't easily mix and match. You can go all Shires or all Edwards but not a hybrid. You can use any of the Edwards valves in an Edwards setup and any of the Shires valves in a Shires setup. You might want to investigate the Shires Q series as a cost effective path.

Another option is to have two bell sections: one with an attachment and one straight. Say a Yamaha 640 plus a 630 bell

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2020-07-14 8:04 a.m.

First of all, I doubt you're going to be able to find a used Shires or Edwards medium bore with a valve and a straight gooseneck for $2000.

[quote="jimmymclark"]-With either Shires or Edwards, is there just one standard conventional rotor valve size that suits both large and medium bore horns?[/quote]

Yes. That's also true of Bach and Conn.

-Does the separate valve and straight neck pipe need to match the brand of the bell

(i.e. Edwards valve for Edwards bell, etc)?

If it doesn't, you will have to pay a shop to change over hardware. The components are not interchangeable between brands.

-Is it possible/advisable to pair an Edwards bell with a Shires slide or visa versa?

Possible, yes. Advisable? Depends...but you'll still have to have hardware changed.

-Is there a better or more efficient way to do what I'm trying to achieve?

For $2000, I would advise that you buy the best medium bore instrument you can find, valve or no, and then save up more money to either have it converted or buy a valve or gooseneck later.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-07-14 9:20 a.m.

I used to have a Bach 42CO. Years ago (like 20). I rarely, if ever, took the valve off. It was almost a gimmick and I'm kinda still upset at myself that I got it. I never found that the sound of the Straight horn really was something I found "better" than the horn with the valve.

I mean, plenty of people have done exactly what you want to, but I haven't found many who regularly swap the horn from one configuration to another. They tend to either keep it straight, or keep it with the valve.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-07-14 9:31 a.m.

I recently sold a 36c, and in its place, I own a 79h and a straight 525. The modular stuff sounds like a good idea on paper, but I've never preferred modular to actual put together horns, especially in medium bore sizes. You usually get a medium bore instrument to lighten up sound or feel, but Edwards and Shires aren't really about light. Shires 525 feel more like 547 to me.

You might also consider Rath, which I think build a little lighter. The parts are harder to come by, but it's just another option with different characteristics.

jimmymclark · by **jimmymclark** » 2020-07-14 10:09 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]You usually get a medium bore instrument to lighten up sound or feel, but Edwards and Shires aren't really about light. Shires 525 feel more like 547 to me.[/quote]

Hmm. I own a Shires large bore. I've never played one of the modular brands in any other size. That's an interesting thought. I hadn't considered that.

I've used a borrowed 36C in the last decade and I only utilized it's functionality a little, but wasn't in a situation where it was always really needed. My situation has changed and I *think* this type of horn would suit me well now.

This post was to get feedback from folks with experiences like yours, so thank you, sir.

jimmymclark · by **jimmymclark** » 2020-07-14 10:11 a.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]I mean, plenty of people have done exactly what you want to, but I haven't found many who regularly swap the horn from one configuration to another. They tend to either keep it straight, or keep it with the valve.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing your experience with that. That's helpful.

jimmymclark · by **jimmymclark** » 2020-07-14 10:13 a.m.

[quote="GabeLangfur"]First of all, I doubt you're going to be able to find a used Shires or Edwards medium bore with a valve and a straight gooseneck for $2000.

For $2000, I would advise that you buy the best medium bore instrument you can find, valve or no, and then save up more money to either have it converted or buy a valve or gooseneck later.[/quote]

Thanks for that feedback on those questions. Very helpful.

jimmymclark · by **jimmymclark** » 2020-07-14 10:15 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]A conversion is not something you can do '"on the fly". I have a Bach 36C but I almost never use the straight pipe. It's a bit too much bother to swap out.

One thing: the way the Shires and Edwards horns fit together is different so you can't easily mix and match. You can go all Shires or all Edwards but not a hybrid. You can use any of the Edwards valves in an Edwards setup and any of the Shires valves in a Shires setup. You might want to investigate the Shires Q series as a cost effective path.

Another option is to have two bell sections: one with an attachment and one straight. Say a Yamaha 640 plus a 630 bell[/quote]

Thanks for your feedback here. I've thought about the same situation with two bells as an option.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2020-07-14 10:16 a.m.

Sent you a message Jimmy.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-07-14 10:59 a.m.

[quote="jimmymclark"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="119832" time="1594733515" user_id="104">
You usually get a medium bore instrument to lighten up sound or feel, but Edwards and Shires aren't really about light. Shires 525 feel more like 547 to me.[/quote]

Hmm. I own a Shires large bore. I've never played one of the modular brands in any other size. That's an interesting thought. I hadn't considered that.

I've used a borrowed 36C in the last decade and I only utilized it's functionality a little, but wasn't in a situation where it was always really needed. My situation has changed and I *think* this type of horn would suit me well now.

This post was to get feedback from folks with experiences like yours, so thank you, sir.
</QUOTE>

Wait, wait... You own a Shires Large bore? Just get a .525 slide and move on.

It's the same horn. The 8" flares are made on the same tooling.. pick up one if you see it. You could use an Edwards .525 slide if you can find one, the locknut won't tighten down, but it will fit.

Pick up a straight neckpipe next time you see one.

That is, unless you just want another horn. They are fun.

Andy

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2020-07-14 1:16 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]Wait, wait... You own a Shires Large bore? Just get a .525 slide and move on.[/quote]

Yup. Everything is interchangeable between large and medium bore Shires.

jimmymclark · by **jimmymclark** » 2020-07-14 3:48 p.m.

[quote="GabeLangfur"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="119846" time="1594738741" user_id="147">
Wait, wait... You own a Shires Large bore? Just get a .525 slide and move on.[/quote]

Yup. Everything is interchangeable between large and medium bore Shires.
</QUOTE>

I guess I should clarify that I was aiming at an 8" bell. Unless I'm missing it, I don't see where Shires makes one? Or maybe they make one only as a special order? looks like they go from 7.75 to 8.5. If not, I'm going to feel really stupid.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2020-07-14 4:16 p.m.

Shires makes 8" bells for both medium/large and small bore trombones.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-07-15 8:48 p.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://reverb.com/item/34580329-used-b ... t=34580329">https://reverb.com/item/34580329-used-bach-36co-bb-f-tenor-trombone-sn-133219?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=34580329</LINK_TEXT>

<Edit: Removed "Delete Thread" Title. Only OP can request this.>

jimmymclark · by **jimmymclark** » 2020-07-16 3:15 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]<LINK_TEXT text="https://reverb.com/item/34580329-used-b ... t=34580329">https://reverb.com/item/34580329-used-bach-36co-bb-f-tenor-trombone-sn-133219?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=34580329</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Thank you sir. This search just came to an end. That horn is on it's way to my house, for less than they were asking to boot!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-07-16 3:40 p.m.

Just curious. Why do you want to delete this thread. It's not a Classified Ad, and you were asking about modifications. The information should be useful for others to follow.

jimmymclark · by **jimmymclark** » 2020-07-16 4:19 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Just curious. Why do you want to delete this thread. It's not a Classified Ad, and you were asking about modifications. The information should be useful for others to follow.[/quote]

Good point. I was looking for some specific info. I hadn't considered that. I'm not super active here, so I not totally up on the etiquette. Will change. Thanks for everyone's help.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-07-16 6:41 p.m.

[quote="jimmymclark"]<QUOTE author="HawaiiTromboneGuy" post_id="120014" time="1594860497" user_id="3695">
<LINK_TEXT text="https://reverb.com/item/34580329-used-b ... t=34580329">https://reverb.com/item/34580329-used-bach-36co-bb-f-tenor-trombone-sn-133219?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=34580329</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Thank you sir. This search just came to an end. That horn is on it's way to my house, for less than they were asking to boot!
</QUOTE>

Glad you got it!

andym · by **andym** » 2020-07-16 10:01 p.m.

I know this is sort of late but I’ll add my 2 cents for posterity. I have a Bach 36b that was customized to be convertible. Withe the F attachment on it is an excellent horn. With the straight neck pipe it is absolutely fantastic. Sound just jumps out of it. When I got a shires large bore (standard rotor circa 2002) I picked up a used straight neck pipe to get that same effect. But on the Shires it seemed to make no difference and so I always leave the attachment on. It may just depend on the specific horn and parts.

TomRiker · by **TomRiker** » 2020-07-17 3:49 p.m.

That might say more about how that particular valve was constructed than anything else.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-08-01 6:05 p.m.

My dream is to have a Bach corporation bell, with Greenhoe tuning in the slide, Thayer/axial flow valve set-up.

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