Snake oil instead of good teaching?

aasavickas · 2020-08-05 10:18 a.m.

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Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-05 10:28 a.m.

I was probably the person who “liked” your comment.

The young trombonist was playing a Yam Trudel wasn’t he? 6 and 1/2-sized rim, a little deeper than a Bach. Pretty mainstream. I might try a Bach 6 and a 1/2 or a 5G (or Faxx to save a bit of $) just to rule out the mpc but a lesson with a good teacher might be money better spent.

aasavickas · 2020-08-05 10:35 a.m.

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timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-08-05 10:43 a.m.

I may have seen that comment.

I may even have said something, not sure. Sometimes I comment, sometimes I refrain from futility.

20 to 1 equipment over embouchure is bad, but if it's the same FB I'm thinking about there are also a number of people who believe more air solves everything, and everybody should put the mouthpiece in the same place. Oh, and every embouchure needs the same size mouthpiece.

I argued for paying attention to copyright law the other day and 95 comments were pretty sure I was wrong.

aasavickas · 2020-08-05 11:38 a.m.

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Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-08-05 11:51 a.m.

Not saying there’s a magical mouthpiece out there, but when i first started i had troubles with range and went up to my music store for a new mouthpiece and got a denis wick 12cs. I can’t even play on it now, but when i switched from a 6 1/2 al to that, something opened up for me. Maybe i practiced more, but i like to think the mouthpiece helped a little bit. Anyways, now there’s not really a difference. I can rip up to high F on a 5g or a 1g.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-08-05 12:24 p.m.

Everybody has an opinion, and knows only what they believe.

I don't have time for that, and I'm not on any Facebook groups.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-08-05 12:35 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Everybody has an opinion, and knows only what they believe.

I don't have time for that, and I'm not on any Facebook groups.[/quote]

:idea:

bassbone721 · by **bassbone721** » 2020-08-05 1:37 p.m.

I've found this out after spending many hours a day on my horn during quarantine. The mouthpiece does have a part in the upper register, but it definitely comes down to the embouchure and the air.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-08-05 2:13 p.m.

Back in the day, before all the small custom makers that we have today, and the internet, we bought what our teachers told us to buy, and learned how to play it. If you had problems, it came down to spending time in the practice room and working the issue out.

Today, we have companies claiming that they can fix all of your playing issues by customizing and "fitting" you to your ideal setup. (On that day, to suit your playing abilities at that time)

So, instead of facing the hard truth that more often than not it is the player that needs to develop and/or sort out the issues, many will reach for a different instrument component to solve the issues they're experiencing. Often times turning to some fairly extreme options to achieve the desired results. This approach may help to overcome the problem in the short term, but how will that equipment choice work out in 6 months, a year, or 6 years?

Having said that, I would very much agree with the idea of having the student see someone (Doug Elliott would be the obvious first choice here) to help diagnose and correct any issues.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-08-05 3:05 p.m.

That student was very young, fwiw.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-08-05 4:23 p.m.

Speaking from personal experience. When i left HS, my range hit a wall about high A or Bb. The music i played didn't help push me beyond that nor did the routine i had didn't address that either. When i started reading third parts that went higher than my first parts in HS i decided to look at different approaches to playing and practiced more. It also helped to finally have experienced trombone players help me out for once.

I'm sure doubling tuba, baritone and bassbone didn't help.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-08-05 6:24 p.m.

There are so many sayings about opinions. The tech who fixes my tube guitar amplifiers when they need help said "A lot of information on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it, nothing."

It's like if you really want to know which instrument brands require the least fixing and maintenance, probably best to ask a repair tech.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-08-05 6:35 p.m.

I will say that my mouthpiece size had been holding me back. I couldn't play well into the upper register, and began having jaw pain from trying different approaches.

I was given an Alessi mouthpiece (DE 106 size) as a kind of sympathy/gag gift and I really liked the initial sound I got on it. It also allowed me to manipulate my embouchure more within the cup width, and gave me more "wiggle room".

THEN I was able to fix my embouchure, and the upper register is no problem. This was after maybe 15 years of thinking it was my embouchure and lack of skill.

In my case, I really wish that a teacher hadn't been telling me that I could eventually figure out how to maneuver my embouchure and that everyone should play a 5G. You need both approaches, just like in running. Your coach says run with good form to increase endurance and reduce injury, but only after you find a shoe that fits first.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-05 7:34 p.m.

All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2020-08-05 11:20 p.m.

Usually if the equipment is reasonably standard/mainstream, problems playing are related to the player. If a problem won't resolve after careful, analytical practice, an equipment change may make the desired improvement. It's a lot quicker and easier to plug in a different mouthpiece in hopes of fixing a problem, but putting in the time and effort to overcome the difficulty may be the proper solution. If the effort does not produce the desired results, and the effort is well-directed and not faulty, equipment change can make the difference.

It's important for the mouthpiece to fit the face and complement the player's technique. For example, many years ago I had an experience similar to that of harrisonreed. I was having problems with attacks; they weren't clean enough, and perhaps a year and a half to two years of addressing this shortcoming with exercises weren't helping. I had been using the mouthpiece recommended by my teacher, and we were both frustrated at my lack of success. Against my teacher's advice I switched to a different, more mainstream mouthpiece, and my problem with attacks was instantly and permanently resolved. The rim size and shape made the difference.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-08-06 6:54 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?[/quote]

Good question!!!!

There is not. There are so many fantastic players out there, some of them play with a really wierd embouchure, as it looks. What we can se is the mpc place on the face as it looks from the outside.

Some players do very good on small mpc, others play on giant mpc, and do it very good.

Many players do play on mpc that is totally wrong for them, just because they "that is a good mpc" so I just have to practis more to get the mpc to work for me. I say it is the same with embouchure, some players try to play with a embouchure that does not work for them. Of course you can not tell somebody anythong about wath mpc or how the embouchure should work without se and hear the person in question. Any tip like that is snake oil.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-08-06 9:20 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?[/quote]

No consensus. Only people who have figured it out to look to, and most of them can't explain it, at least beyond what they perceive is going on.

I certainly haven't figured it out.

aasavickas · 2020-08-06 10:59 a.m.

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Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-06 11:43 a.m.

This was Doug Yeo on his experience in the fMRI;

<LINK_TEXT text="https://thelasttrombone.com/2017/08/22/ ... y-project/">https://thelasttrombone.com/2017/08/22/seeing-the-unseen-trombone-playing-through-the-eye-of-a-mri-scanner-with-the-mri-brass-repository-project/</LINK_TEXT>

Eli Epstein’s work is also interesting:

<YOUTUBE id="2LccA6A_M1s">https://youtu.be/2LccA6A_M1s</YOUTUBE>

This doesn’t show how the lips move, or mpc placement. Maybe a good teacher using a cutaway or a transparent mpc could nail this down where someone is curious or is having problems.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-08-06 5:18 p.m.

[quote="aasavickas"]Having a mouthpiece that matches/works with a person's face is important as is having a mouthpiece that works well with the horn.

Makes sense that a horrible mismatch of face to mouthpiece or mouthpiece to horn could cause problems. But it seems to me unless a person's has a bizarre face, so long as you are playing equipment in the ballpark of normal for that idiom, it is probably a chop/practice issue.

There is a great video of a French horn player playing in an MRI. I think most folks would be surprised how much of the playing happens in the mouth with the tongue and other oral cavity changes. All those firm corners, point your chin, and blow from your diaphram folks might be surprised.

Check it out below.

<YOUTUBE id="MWcOwgWsPHA">https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

:weep: my face is ugly but I don't think it's bizarre. I honestly can't play on anything remotely close to a 5G without my range being reduced in both directions (I lose over an octave total) and jaw pain. I have an underbite, maybe that's my issue.

FWIW, the horn player is Sarah Willis, one of the most enthusiastic and charismatic people I know of when it comes to promoting classical music. If people here have not seen her videos, the horn hangouts, they should check them out! She plays low horn in the BERLIN PHIL! :amazed:

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-08-06 5:34 p.m.

10 years ago I became a member of a trombone forum. I thought all the advice I received was like being in heaven. That these were mostly professional or very good musicians who gave their advice. That, of course, is not the case. I was blue-eyed and did not understand much. Although I had been a teacher for many years. Not at a high level but still.

When it comes to equipment, work, practice, talent, etc., I experience that it is a blissful mix of these that applies. But it all depends on the person concerned. One simply can not give advice to people who ask random questions on the internet without knowing the whole background. Also do not give advice to people who refer to situations where we do not know the story behind. We see that questions about equipment give about as many answers as there are members. In fact, everyone can be right and wrong. In fact, we do not know enough.

Back to the topic of original post.

Equipment is important, but in my eyes not a deciding factor. I think the will and desire to achieve something is the most important thing. And perseverance and strength to accomplish the most important thing.

What is the saying, Distress teaches naked woman to spin.

That said "im not naked" <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> :D

I have a drawer with many mouthpieces ....

Leif

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-08-06 6:01 p.m.

Interesting saying "Distress teaches naked woman to spin"

I'm really not sure what that means!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-08-06 6:02 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]...

What is the saying, Distress teaches naked woman to spin.

...

Leif[/quote]

Never heard that one before. Is that a Norwegian saying? :idk:

Back on topic: Bad equipment is almost always a hindrance. The difference between a competent horn and a great horn is probably lost on a beginner.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-08-06 6:11 p.m.

I blame Google translate :cool:

Maybe it's woman without clothes make her know how to spin new clothes? :D :roll:

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-08-06 6:20 p.m.

The problem with giving advice about these things is that you need more information than what can be relayed in a single email post to really determine what's wrong.

Some years ago, I took on a jr. high euphonium player as a student. It was a favour to a colleague (the family were neighbors of a friend from the orchestra). I don't usually do a lot of teaching in that age group, and my instincts were to work with him on slurs, etc. and teaching him to be able to sing some intervals to help his non-existent high range. He was very frustrated that he was falling behind the other kids - his main goal was to just catch up with them.

After a couple of lessons, I took a look at his horn - a funky Amati with a Euro/medium shank receiver. Then I looked at the mouthpiece - it was Amati's version of a 3G. I grabbed a medium shank mouthpiece from my collection, and then discovered that the horn was absolutely terrible. Horribly out of tune with itself, and some partials/notes actually were almost impossible to make sound.

I got the school to get him a different horn - probably a student model Yamaha with the stock mouthpiece, and 90% of his issues were gone. A 3G and a bad instrument were not good choices for a jr. high beginner, and no amount of practicing and proper use of the air was going to solve that.

Most of the time, it's a practice and proper technique issue, but it is worth checking out the equipment to make sure that it's in playable condition, and isn't too far out of the mainstream for the age and level of the student.

Jim Scott

Bach5G · 2020-08-06 6:34 p.m.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-08-06 7:10 p.m.

Nah I give it up, of course equipment is important. I teach small children and know they probably should have better quality than anyone to keep learning and keep interest. Another aspect of internet, misunderstanding.....I told the same as Jim and Bguttman, but added the words work, practice, everyone is unique, and don't listen all advice on internet. ..............and don't believe all either. Well, ....sorry my English.....it's your forum! Goodbye.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2020-08-06 7:52 p.m.

From my experience, basically decent equipment is important to give a good impression and start. I was started - as a child - on a crapped-out horn with a mouthpiece that had a lot of plating worn off. It had a terrible taste. The horn was a .490 bore with a 7" bell and a 12c mouthpiece. I think a lot of pros might even have been out of their comfort zone on it. Maybe if I had a decent Conn Director or the like and a mouthpiece in better condition back then, it could have made enough of a difference.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-08-06 8:24 p.m.

Again... the teacher of this student (which is a young, middle school student) is a professional, holding a principal and 2nd position with two orchestras. He's a good player. To assume he hasn't tried working on "proper technique" is a bit insulting, IMO.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-08-06 8:30 p.m.

I've known a number of excellent players who weren't good teachers. I've also known great players who were excellent teachers for advanced players but were awful with beginners.

I would assume the teacher takes a moment to try the student's horn to make sure it isn't the problem. After that you need to work on basics. You can't run before you walk.

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-08-06 8:40 p.m.

Exactly. what BGuttman said seems right to me.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-06 8:48 p.m.

A young middle school player with problems around high A?

The phrase “Rome wasn’t built in a day” comes to mind.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-08-06 9:09 p.m.

[quote="aasavickas"]Exactly. what BGuttman said seems right to me.[/quote]

Still... seems a bit harsh to come here and complain about it.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-08-06 10:45 p.m.

I have to say when I was in Middle School (it was called Junior High School back then) I couldn't hit a high A (3 lines above the bass staff) either. I was able to play high Bb above it in High School, and I was the only trombone with that capability then. Don't want to brag, but maybe the kid is doing fine.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-06 11:38 p.m.

The Trudel is a bit of an odd piece. 6 and a 1/2-ish but a deep cup. Maybe not the best choice for a 14-15 year who is still working on his range?

Basbasun · 2020-08-07 6:21 a.m.

This post was answering a now delited post, so it goes the same way.

Basbasun · 2020-08-07 6:27 a.m.

Maybe this discousion give us some more understanding.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-08-07 8:23 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I've known a number of excellent players who weren't good teachers. I've also known great players who were excellent teachers for advanced players but were awful with beginners.[/quote]

I think sometimes it's not so much that the teacher is bad, but that there is a mismatch between the learning style and teaching style.

If you're an "inner tennis" type learner and have a more analytical style teacher, there may be communication problems.

But the reverse, if you're a more analytical style learner, an inner tennis goal oriented teacher may not work at all. You'll never know what he/she wants.

My belief is that learning styles are mostly hardwired, but teaching styles can be customized to the student. Not everybody agrees.

My daughter came home from her beginner band class in middle school with an assignment to practice, and dutifully sat down to practice the trumpet. She was frustrated, on the edge of tears and soon way past. she said "daddy how do I play that note?" It was second line G. I said finger it open. No, how do I play it? Well it's this pitch (daddy sings concert F) No how do I make that note come out? It took me a while to realize she did not understand the process between thinking the note and playing it. How exactly does that happen? And I couldn't tell her, I didn't understand what she was asking. I didn't understand the gap between something I'd done for almost 40 years and something she'd never done. (I left for a meeting and when I returned both kids informed me: Daddy we broke the piano, and your tuner doesn't work on trumpet. Bb treble strikes again!)

aasavickas · 2020-08-07 8:38 a.m.

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Bach5G · 2020-08-07 8:42 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]I know very many professional trombonists who had problems with high A at 16 years of age. Playing on a TRudel mpc would not be a good idea in that case. Maybe latter.[/quote]

When I was about to enter my 4th year of uni I decided I wanted to play in the orch. So I sold my 2B and bought a 42B that came with a 6 and 1/2 AL. I had been using a 12C up until that point. It took time to make the transition. I succeeded in the audition and spent a couple of terms playing 2nd next to M Crewe. I recall being happy cleanly hitting a high A in the Galliard I did for my jury the following spring.

aasavickas · 2020-08-07 8:43 a.m.

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Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-07 8:55 a.m.

Re: the original post in this thread, I recall the original FB post. There was very little discussion of playing fundamentals but there was post after post of what seemed like hs kids listing increasingly expensive mpcs, as if the problem could be solved by throwing money at it. If Alessi plays Griego, you should play Griego. But that’s FB. One shouldn’t be surprised.

“But a 15 year old solid player probably can play on larger professional equipment presuming they are not tiny and are healthy.” Sure, but it might take time and the right kind of practicing. As I said, Rome wasn’t built in a day.

“Clearly she is an excellent player but the exact way she plays is not right for everybody and a french horn embouchure is not the same as a trombone embouchure.”

Check out the Doug Yeo article and/or follow up the links in that article to see what else the Max Planck brass research guys have been up to since 2017. I think the fundamentals of brass playing are pretty similar across the various instruments.

aasavickas · 2020-08-07 9:11 a.m.

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timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-08-07 9:23 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Check out the Doug Yeo article and/or follow up the links in that article to see what else the Max Planck brass research guys have been up to since 2017. I think the fundamentals of brass playing are pretty similar across the various instruments.[/quote]

I'd like to see Dave Wilken's embouchure type videos enhanced with the MRI stuff. that could be enlightening.

Bach5G · 2020-08-07 9:27 a.m.

You know there are kids on a G-A 1C because that’s what Joe plays. Or who will tell you that the original GBs are superior to his current NY series and way better than Christan’s work. And on and on.

$220 US (~$300 CDN) is a fair chunk of change for a mpc.

And I’m as much of a mpc slut as anybody. I’m currently a little frustrated because, due to the Canada-US border being closed, I’m cut off.

“I'd like to see Dave Wilken's embouchure type videos enhanced with the MRI stuff. that could be enlightening.”

Future ITA panel discussion: Dave, Doug, Doug, and someone from the Planck brass project.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-08-07 9:42 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]You know there are kids on a G-A 1C because that’s what Joe plays. Or who will tell you that the original GBs are superior to his current NY series and way better than Christan’s work. And on and on.

...[/quote]

Sometimes an ignorant teacher can be a big part of the problem. We had a post on the old TTF where a trumpet playing BD concluded that since a 1C is a good trumpet mouthpiece, a 1G must be a good trombone mouthpiece. Poor kids... :eek:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-07 9:54 a.m.

Sometimes an ignorant teacher can be a big part of the problem. We had a post on the old TTF where a trumpet playing BD concluded that since a 1C is a good trumpet mouthpiece, a 1G must be a good trombone mouthpiece. Poor kids... :eek:

Reminds me of what my guitar tech told me one day. She said: You know Rod, there are a lot of cowboys out there.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-08-07 4:16 p.m.

I'm pretty sure that even after we get back to teaching lessons in person, we won't be trying the student's horn for quite a while. The days of casually playing a few licks on another person's instrument are gone, at least for now.

Jim Scott

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-08-07 4:20 p.m.

Thanks for digging up dirt on me, I always enjoy stumbling upon a bashing without knowing about it <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

To give you more information, my student has been studying with me for about four years, and has just finished 8th grade. He is principal trombone of the Chicago Youth Symphony Orchestra for the 2nd year, and many other regional ensembles around town. He's doing more than ok IMO, i'm just looking for a way to give him confidence/ high-range boost, rather than over-drilling him with high range exercise to lower his self-esteem. I've been working on his high range since the beginning, which has improved nearly a 5th since the first lesson...

What is frustrating is you're questioning my teaching skills based on a question I posted on Trombone Equipment yet you don't know who I am. Isn't that a little closed-minded?

To quote you above: "I commented that it was probably not an equipment issue but an embouchure one and gave some ideas and said if the teacher was not comfortable that he should have the student get a lesson with an embouchure expert and gave the guys name. The OP said it was not a chop issue rather an equipment one."

This is actually what I wrote in response: "Don't think it's an embouchure issue, but i'll check this advice if switching smaller doesn't work." Looks like you twisted the truth: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/groups/9628378 ... SEARCH_BOX">https://www.facebook.com/groups/962837813726924/search/?query=brian%20johnston&epa=SEARCH_BOX</LINK_TEXT>

I was totally open to your ideas, I just think that maybe his current mouthpiece is working against him.

I'll repeat myself as well: I'll check your advice if the mouthpiece doesn't help the way I believe it might.

I posted on that forum to receive advice, not to get ripped on. Thanks... :x

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-08-07 5:41 p.m.

This topic has become somewhat toxic. Many people are grail hunting... both wìth equipment and lessons with 'that perfect trombone guru'. The range issue I don't see as a big deal. Everyone is different and some youngsters take a time to develop an upper register. It is what it is. Practise time wins every time.

Don't mock Savio for his translation tool... he speaks better English than any of us speak Norwegian ...and he talks a lot of sense.

Chris

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-07 6:14 p.m.

Only “somewhat toxic” surely?

In fact, pretty standard social media stuff. If you ask for opinions and/or advice, well you may get more than you bargained for, and not all of it positive. I don’t think anybody was mocking Savio and it is unfortunate if he took it that way.

If I were moderating this forum, I would delete any info or reference that might identify the young trombonist in question. I think this is very important and should be done immediately.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-08-07 6:39 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Only “somewhat toxic” surely?

In fact, pretty standard social media stuff. If you ask for opinions and/or advice, well you may get more than you bargained for, and not all of it positive. I don’t think anybody was mocking Savio and it is unfortunate if he took it that way.

If I were moderating this forum, I would delete any info or reference that might identify the young trombonist in question. I think this is very important and should be done immediately.[/quote]

Just to clarify some things further. CYSO doesn't post a roster, so you'd have to go to a person in concert to know who is being talked about. There are little to no concerts right now, so pretty sure my student's identity is safe...

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-08-07 6:58 p.m.

It seems that some posts have been removed from this thread, so recent comments make little to no sense.

It appears that some apologies are in order.

Please, let's not turn TromboneChat into Facebook! :(

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-08-07 8:02 p.m.

Savio is a very inspirational person to me. A great player and very giving of his time. One of the greatest things about English is that it is widely understood even if used with minor mistakes -- in Savio's case I almost never see a mistake and his way of writing has a lot of character. Native English speakers should consider themselves lucky that the current lingua franca is English, and we would do well to learn other languages and communicate with others in those languages. It's a humbling experience!!

If the only comment about his English was in reference to the saying he used, I think that was more of a "wow cool saying, what does it mean?" and not anything more than that. I took it as "spinning cloth". But maybe something was deleted that I didn't read?

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2020-08-07 8:54 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]

Please, let's not turn TromboneChat into Facebook! :([/quote]

this.

I was very skeptical when I first joined this forum. After the loss of the trombone forum and the rise of several Facebook groups, I just didn’t see the point of this forum. But Facebook is Facebook and therefore it is always a good place for some people posting in these groups to promote themselves. Despite many great contributors and the lack of anonymity it regularly seems to be a place of conflict.

I really believe this forum can and should be difficult. This discussion here be some toxic indeed and maybe we should look at it as an example of where badmouthing leads to.

I remember a few discussions from the old forum regarding the lack of professionals posting there (though some did, and some of us do here as well). Douglas Yeo wrote an interesting article about it called “What happened to the internet”. Maybe some people should read it.

This discussion is a prime example of why people are careful and hesitant to post. What is Brian, who subbed with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, left to think of this place now ? What about Savvio ? I think we can and should do better.

I had the chance to perform next to Brian, he is a great player and cared greatly about trombone playing and teaching. I have not seen him teach but based on our playing together, I’d advice critics to tread lightly.

Basbasun · 2020-08-08 5:36 a.m.

Some things I wrote could have been worded another way, or not writen at all.

aasavickas · 2020-08-08 9:06 a.m.

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BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-08-08 9:32 a.m.

[quote="aasavickas"]I was not ripping on the teacher and did not intend to. I was just surprised by the amount of folks recommending an equipment change. That was the point of posting generalized information here and what the discussion was about.

It very well may be an 8th grader is mismatched to his equipment, it seems awful large for an 8th grader. I presumed the student was in high school based on the ensembles the kid was playing in. Clearly, the students actual teacher has a better idea of what the kid needs rather than random people on the internet.

The fact that I didn't dig up your name(or dirt) and quote you directly and rather summarized your response was an attempt to avoid "ripping" on anyone. I was curious about the state of modern brass teaching based on the responses. Having a general discussion about brass teaching and not naming any names is the opposite of closed minded. It was an example of what appears to be popular advice that I was curious about rather than a comment on your specific teaching with this specific student. No names were used of the teacher or the student on purpose in order to avoid picking on anyone. Until people starting naming the teacher in order to be offended on his behalf, it was just a general example. Then when the OP facebook poster came on here to complain, it was clear who made the initial post. Not from me naming anyone.

The discussion about equipment recommendations vs focusing on teaching embouchure work is interesting and beneficial. If people were less thin skinned and rather than taking things personally could just throw out ideas for discussion, social media sites can actually improve teaching and playing and might help some players learn something new.

You seem to have taken offense. None was intended and I apologize if it came across that way.[/quote]

I appreciate the apology.

I do see based off the title, and reading through your posts (on this forum) how many people could find what you're saying offensive. "Snake Oil instead of good teaching?" could be implied that everyone who mentioned a mouthpiece change rather than embouchure or new exercises is wrong. I think your intentions "may" have been well, but the way you wrote everything above made for a rather bellicose discussion.

aasavickas · 2020-08-08 9:50 a.m.

Deleted by user

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-08 12:30 p.m.

I think any identifying information about the young man should be deleted so that even he wouldn’t recognize himself in this thread. It’s a privacy issue. (The young man’s privacy).

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-08-08 3:33 p.m.

There is no privacy issue.

No one was identified until adults started identifying themselves which is not an issue since they decided to do it. And the student was never identified. I'm sure the social media lawyers may disagree but unlike them, some of us have actually been to law school and practice law.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-08 5:29 p.m.

“I’m sure the social media lawyers may disagree but unlike them, some of us have actually been to law school and practice law.”

I’ve been to law school. I practiced law for 25 years. For the past 12 years I’ve worked in a quasi-judicial admin law position and written about 2500 decisions in which I have been careful not to include unnecessary information that might identify the parties. In this case, I’d be concerned about the privacy of the young man.

But I will defer to your better judgment in this matter.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-08-08 6:37 p.m.

Again... this is exactly why pros don't stick around tromboneforum and trombonechat.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-08-08 6:42 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Again... this is exactly why pros don't stick around tromboneforum and trombonechat.[/quote]

:idea:

Peace.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-08-08 8:59 p.m.

Yeah, this is cringe worthy....

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2020-08-09 9:12 a.m.

Facebook is a horrible medium for an honest exchange of ideas, particularly when participants might happen to have some disagreements. It's hard enough on a platform like this, but even harder when you have to click to "read more" on a comment or "view previous comments" plus comments get posted in different places along the thread regardless of the chronology.

[quote="Bach5G"]All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?[/quote]

Among real experts there is some disagreements over the details, but as has been discussed on the TC forum here before, most brass teachers don't know they don't understand. Furthermore, the culture of brass pedagogy tends to discourage any sort of conscious analysis of the embouchure and so the future brass teachers that may not have any major embouchure issues to work out don't learn how to diagnose and troubleshoot embouchure technique in their future students, repeating the cycle of ignorance. When a brass musician figures out something that works well for their own embouchure, often they tout that as correct for everyone.

[quote="timothy42b"]I think sometimes it's not so much that the teacher is bad, but that there is a mismatch between the learning style and teaching style.[/quote]

The expert consensus for adapting instructions to fit an individual student's supposed "learning style" leans dramatically towards that approach being largely ineffective. In fact, this has been known for decades, yet this myth in pedagogy still persists today. What we think of as a "style" is actually a "preference" and while it certainly helps a teacher keep students engaged and interested in a topic, studies have consistently shown that learning outcomes that cater to the students' individual "learning preferences" are worse than a more consistent approach. What happens is the student tends to not practice what they don't do well yet and overly practice what they find more fun (e.g., what they already can do well).

We are all visual learners. We are all aural learners. We are all analytical learners and intuitive learners.

[quote="RustBeltBass"]I remember a few discussions from the old forum regarding the lack of professionals posting there (though some did, and some of us do here as well). Douglas Yeo wrote an interesting article about it called “What happened to the internet”. Maybe some people should read it.[/quote]

Folks is folks. If you're not familiar with that saying, it means that people are going to be people, regardless of their demographic. While a lot of contentious internet disagreements can be chalked up to anonymity encouraging people to not play nice with each other, I think if we look at a representative slice of adults who post on forums we'll see that it's not just amateurs causing problems, but professionals too.

On another brass forum one prominent professional player regularly came after things I posted to the point of where I eventually deleted my account. I set up another one after some years and started posting less frequently, but that user again kept going after me very hard. The irony was that one argument was based on how wrong my ideas there were, but everything I originally posted actually affirmed that individual's point - that person just wanted to attack me and what I supposedly represent so badly that the individual didn't even bother to read my post carefully enough to comprehend what I wrote. I never got an apology from that individual or noticed any moderation activity on that thread.

More recently I happened to post a disagreement on a Facebook group devoted to brass teaching and one of the members there (someone with a terminal degree in trombone, a lot of experience, and a well regarded mentor) accused me of waiting in the wings to attack anything that individual wrote. We had, I think, three direct online interactions in over 2 years. When I pointed out that I was simply posting my (self-described expert) opinion on a topic that has been a research interest of mine for over 20 years that individual simply replied, "Don't tell me I'm wrong." Frankly, I feel that individual was wrong. Moderators in that group simply agreed with that individual's advice instead of encouraging an exchange of ideas. I left the Facebook group instead of stirring up more controversy.

I've seen similar examples here on TC from professionals or other adults who I feel should be better at this by now. Of course, I'm not immune to this. I try to be better these days, but I still make communication mistakes. Back in the day, when I still enjoyed a good internet debate, I made a lot more of those. Sorry about that, by the way.

There are ways we can encourage a polite exchange of ideas. For example, it's often best to approach every disagreement from a "principle of charity," where we assume the other person's point of view from the most rational position as possible.

Dave

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-09 12:14 p.m.

With all due respect to Mr. Stearn, I don’t think this thread has been all that toxic. But I say that being someone who, years ago, on a former trombone forum, got childish satisfaction mocking and goading one of our esteemed professionals who, in my undoubtedly disrespectful view, unfairly got away with attacking everyone he disagreed with, which, frankly, seemed to be nearly everybody, from Jersey girls to the NYPO.

I read Mr. Y’s article about the Internet when it first came out. With all due respect to Mr. Y, was it ever thus? Maybe, for a Garden of Eden moment, before the hordes rushed in and began to do what the hordes always do: bicker, wreck stuff, and leave mounds of trash behind. And, given what we learned about the Internet since then, well, I shake my head. Russian troll bots, Alex Jones, etc. I read an article about a fellow who was making a healthy living just making up outrageous shit and publishing it on the Internet. There was a time when making money spreading lies might have earned you disapproval, not $100,000 (or more) a year.

I think the discourse in this thread and on this forum is generally pretty reasonable although, as I pointed out above, my standards might be pretty low. I feel bad for Mr. J, whose reasonable request for advice in another forum was taken out of context to make a point. To the extent I contributed to that, I am sorry.

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-08-09 12:24 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“I’m sure the social media lawyers may disagree but unlike them, some of us have actually been to law school and practice law.”

I’ve been to law school. I practiced law for 25 years. For the past 12 years I’ve worked in a quasi-judicial admin law position and written about 2500 decisions in which I have been careful not to include unnecessary information that might identify the parties. In this case, I’d be concerned about the privacy of the young man.

But I will defer to your better judgment in this matter.[/quote]

I think you are wrong on the privacy issue but that is debatable. I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue. No one was identified or directly quoted until an adult decided to complain about it. If anyone created a privacy issue, the liable party would be the complaining teacher. Since you are a lawyer the "social media lawyer" comment was not directed at you because you are not a social media lawyer but a real one. Maybe you misread that. Agree to disagree on the privacy point.

I deleted every post I have except the last one in an abundance of caution to respect an anonymous kids mouthpiece choice. I think it is ridiculous, but I also think open and honest dialogue about anything, including mouthpiece choice, leads adults to have their feeling hurt and they complain. I don't intend to offend anyone but these days, being offended has become a virtue. People will chime in to say they are offended on someone else's behalf and contribute nothing to the discussion other than an attempt to shut it down. Then go tell that person so that they can be offended. It is silly.

I don't think Mr. J's question was taken out of context to make a point. Rather, it was a generalized anonymous example of the fact that so many people presumed there could not be any chop or practice related issue and the only solution was to recommend buying expensive equipment. I even cited the ratio of comments which was (20/1). The clear intent was to hear others thoughts on whether recommending equipment was too prevalent, or not enough, or if fundamentals were being taught correctly. This is not a good topic for an equipment facebook page, so I posted it here. Try to do what makes sense, others presume the worst and it hurts peoples feelings. It was clear in the post and all subsequent posts but you have to take my word for it, as at your request, they have all been deleted to protect a never named anonymous child's mouthpiece choice.

There appears to be nothing fruitful to be gained from this forum with the "I've got hurt feelings" bullies running around. I try to do my best to be polite and respectful with postings but no effort is good enough.

No jokes, no joy, no discussion, no disagreement.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-09 12:34 p.m.

“I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue.”

I expect you’re 100% correct about this.

I’m not debating fine points of constitutional law, but rather, I am pointing out that a 14-year old has been unfairly and without his permission dragged into this discussion. The kid is not anonymous: we know where he lives, the orchestra he plays in, and the chair he occupies.

aasavickas · by **aasavickas** » 2020-08-09 1:15 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue.”

I expect you’re 100% correct about this.

I’m not debating fine points of constitutional law, but rather, I am pointing out that a 14-year old has been unfairly and without his permission dragged into this discussion. The kid is not anonymous: we know where he lives, the orchestra he plays in, and the chair he occupies.[/quote]

A moral or ethical argument makes some sense to me. Which is why I literally deleted everything I wrote other. Seems a bit silly but probably best to err on the side of caution even if his teacher did not. Still don't see the issue morally that people might know the kids teacher wants him to switch mouthpieces but who knows.

His teacher is the one who brought up the student and shared information on facebook. His teacher also decided to come over to this forum and complain that he was offended so that everyone knew which specific Facebook post I referenced. I carefully left out all the details on purpose and avoided quoting directly. I can't help if opinionated thin skinned people share info on their students. I did everything I could to ensure it was a general discussion about trombone related stuff on a trombone forum. I didn't mention any details. The hurt feeling sluths tied it all together and made it known.

People who can't handle polite disagreement or discussion should not post things online.

Seems obvious but maybe not.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-09 2:00 p.m.

I’m not pointing fingers, I’m just saying any info that could potentially identify the student should be deleted.

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2020-08-09 2:02 p.m.

[quote="aasavickas"]

A moral or ethical argument makes some sense to me. Which is why I literally deleted everything I wrote other. Seems a bit silly but probably best to err on the side of caution even if his teacher did not. Still don't see the issue morally that people might know the kids teacher wants him to switch mouthpieces but who knows.

His teacher is the one who brought up the student and shared information on facebook. His teacher also decided to come over to this forum and complain that he was offended so that everyone knew which specific Facebook post I referenced. I carefully left out all the details on purpose and avoided quoting directly. I can't help if opinionated thin skinned people share info on their students. I did everything I could to ensure it was a general discussion about trombone related stuff on a trombone forum. I didn't mention any details. The hurt feeling sluths tied it all together and made it known.

People who can't handle polite disagreement or discussion should not post things online.

Seems obvious but maybe not.[/quote]

So what does that leave the rest of us to think of the “apology” you issued ? #sincere

This discussion has become embarrassing. Moderators should do the one and only right thing there is left to do here.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-08-09 4:30 p.m.

One of the most important skills that learning trombone has taught me is how to separate good advice from BS.

There are kernels of great advice everywhere online. Here, facebook, reddit... some really amazing players and teachers type among us, and if you know what to look for, it's like a free masterclass.

But you definitely have to know what to look for. For instance, this thread contains little more than the diarrheal spoutings of a curmudgeon, raving about how "thin skinned" everyone else is.

Let's see your resume, dude. If you're gonna spackle this board with your BS, at least do us the courtesy of telling us what it was before you digested it.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-08-09 4:36 p.m.

Let’s turn the temperature down a bit shall we?

We’ve had a good, uh, robust discussion. No need to leave bruises.

BrianJohnston · 2020-08-09 5:48 p.m.

[quote="aasavickas"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="122273" time="1596990849" user_id="2999">
“I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue.”

I expect you’re 100% correct about this.

I’m not debating fine points of constitutional law, but rather, I am pointing out that a 14-year old has been unfairly and without his permission dragged into this discussion. The kid is not anonymous: we know where he lives, the orchestra he plays in, and the chair he occupies.[/quote]

A moral or ethical argument makes some sense to me. Which is why I literally deleted everything I wrote other. Seems a bit silly but probably best to err on the side of caution even if his teacher did not. Still don't see the issue morally that people might know the kids teacher wants him to switch mouthpieces but who knows.

His teacher is the one who brought up the student and shared information on facebook. His teacher also decided to come over to this forum and complain that he was offended so that everyone knew which specific Facebook post I referenced. I carefully left out all the details on purpose and avoided quoting directly. I can't help if opinionated thin skinned people share info on their students. I did everything I could to ensure it was a general discussion about trombone related stuff on a trombone forum. I didn't mention any details. The hurt feeling sluths tied it all together and made it known.

People who can't handle polite disagreement or discussion should not post things online.

Seems obvious but maybe not.
</QUOTE>

You're an ass bro. Your post(s) we're thoughtless, and i'm glad you deleted them. Why don't you just cut the crap now before you keep digging yourself deeper in a hole.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2020-08-09 5:49 p.m.

Feel free to delete what I just wrote above... although I don't regret writing it. Deleting this whole forum would be ideal.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-08-09 6:03 p.m.

Let me talk about the original issue..... it is not surprising that a given student finds a particular thing, such as high register challenging....what is surprising is that so many players are able to jump through a series of hoops called the symphonic repertoire fairly easily. Everyone is unique, unless you are into categorization. Some people may never play Bolero however 'correct' their physical approach. Others get there in spite of less than ideal physical approaches.

Mindset is the new teaching kid on the block...mental approach is perhaps THE fundamental to success. Over decades it has, along with hard work, been central to the achievements of my students.

A few people won't like that, but I don't care...and I won't enter a spat about it. Like it or hate it...up to you.

Chris

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-08-09 6:14 p.m.

Chris hits the nail on the head yet again, with the finesse of a cross peen pin hammer.

Others are still squabbling about "he said she said".

Wow, this thread has given me three names of people to block, who I never have to bother reading their drivel ever again.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-08-10 7:59 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]This topic has become somewhat toxic. Many people are grail hunting... both wìth equipment and lessons with 'that perfect trombone guru'. The range issue I don't see as a big deal. Everyone is different and some youngsters take a time to develop an upper register. It is what it is. Practise time wins every time.

Don't mock Savio for his translation tool... he speaks better English than any of us speak Norwegian ...and he talks a lot of sense.

Chris[/quote]

Thanks a lot! Chris I dont talk lot of sense. But you do, same as Svenne!

Leif

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-08-10 8:18 p.m.

Leif, I usually understand what you are saying (except for that transliterated adage ;) ). I appreciate your contributions. Please stay around.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-08-10 8:36 p.m.

Yes, Leif, you are awesome!

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2020-08-10 9:17 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Leif, I usually understand what you are saying (except for that transliterated adage ;) ).[/quote]

Really? Seems pretty obvious that it's an analogue to "Necessity is the mother of invention," no? :idk:

AOBTW … it's translated, not transliterated.

Translate: ~~[url=https://www.dictionary.com/browse/translate]~~to turn from one language into another or from a foreign language into one's own; ~~[url=https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=translate&submit.x=40&submit.y=30]~~To render in another language; ~~[url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/translate]~~to turn into one's own or another language

Transliterate: ~~[url=https://www.dictionary.com/browse/transliterate]~~to change (letters, words, etc.) into corresponding characters of another alphabet or language: to transliterate the Greek Χ as ch.; ~~[url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transliterate]~~: to represent or spell in the characters of another alphabet; ~~[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration]~~a type of conversion of a text from one script to another that involves swapping letters (thus trans- + liter-) in predictable ways, such as Greek ⟨α⟩ → ⟨a⟩, Cyrillic ⟨д⟩ → ⟨d⟩, Greek ⟨χ⟩ → the digraph ⟨ch⟩, Armenian ⟨ն⟩ → ⟨n⟩ or Latin ⟨æ⟩ → ⟨ae⟩.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-08-11 5:22 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Yes, Leif, you are awesome![/quote][quote="BGuttman"]Leif, I usually understand what you are saying (except for that transliterated adage ;) ). I appreciate your contributions. Please stay around.[/quote]

Thanks a lot!! Sometimes I don't understand what I write my self! Google translate? Better use my own English language..... :mrgreen: :D

On the topic, I recommend both snake oil and good teaching.

Everything can help.

Leif the language expert (soon) :shuffle:

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-08-11 5:33 a.m.

[quote="Savio"]

Thanks a lot!! Sometimes I don't understand what I write my self! Google translate? Better use my own English language..... :mrgreen: :D

On the topic, I recommend both snake oil and good teaching.

Everything can help.

Leif the language expert (soon) :shuffle:[/quote]

Leif! I love you!

Wilktone · 2020-08-11 8:23 a.m.

Moderators, I seem to have quadruple posted somehow. Sorry about that, everyone.

Wilktone · 2020-08-11 8:33 a.m.

Sheesh. I really need to drink more coffee. This post is an edit too (see below).

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2020-08-11 8:34 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Let me talk about the original issue..... it is not surprising that a given student finds a particular thing, such as high register challenging....what is surprising is that so many players are able to jump through a series of hoops called the symphonic repertoire fairly easily. Everyone is unique, unless you are into categorization. Some people may never play Bolero however 'correct' their physical approach. Others get there in spite of less than ideal physical approaches.

Mindset is the new teaching kid on the block...mental approach is perhaps THE fundamental to success. Over decades it has, along with hard work, been central to the achievements of my students.

A few people won't like that, but I don't care...and I won't enter a spat about it. Like it or hate it...up to you.

Chris[/quote]

Chris, I know you don't want to get into a spat, but how about a discussion?

Where, in your opinion, should the mental focus be? The tone? The musical expression? The foot tapping? The feeling of air rushing past the lips? What you're planning on cooking for dinner? What is the correct mindset that breaks past playing difficulties?

A mental approach alone certainly can work for an awful lot of players, particularly if they've already managed to get through some competitive audition processes. But sometimes I think getting a student on a different sized mouthpiece can help break past some barriers too. Same goes for a little attention on a "physical approach."

In reality, I don't think anyone seriously advocates for such a black and white approach that musicians should take a purely mental approach, or purely physical approach, or only worry about what equipment they're playing. They are all pieces to a larger puzzle and are context dependent. It might be helpful to divide those approaches into categories, but it's not really worth prioritizing them outside of a specific context that's relevant to the specific student.

Here in the U.S., mainstream brass pedagogy has been focused on something akin to your ideas on a mental approach for over 50 years. I see this approach more as the old guard, not the new kid. A blended approach, which strives to take into account the context of each individual student or musician's needs and goals, ~~[url=https://www.wilktone.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/A-REVIEW-OF-IMPLICIT-AND-EXPLICIT-LEARNING-STRATEGIES-IN-THE-DEVELOPMENT-OF-MOTOR-SKILLS.pdf]~~seems to have more current support to me.

... I’m just saying any info that could potentially identify the student should be deleted.

I don't know enough about the original context of this to comment, but the El Sistema program I work for asks our parents/guardians to sign a release form giving us permission to use the student's name, image, or video for promotional materials. The local youth orchestra we have a working relationship with I believe does similarly. From a legal, ethical, and practical matter I'm not certain I see too much difference between, "My student, who plays with the X Youth Orchestra, might do better with a different mouthpiece" compared with "Congratulations to my student, X, who won the concerto competition with the X Youth Orchestra."

Dave

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2020-08-11 8:36 a.m.

Oops, I screwed up editing my typos and ended up double posting. This post was deleted by the author because he dosnt spel to gud.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-08-11 8:42 a.m.

I was curious so I googled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

It's not so clear if snake oil ever came from snakes. It seems unlikely in the US, but in 18th century UK there are references to "viper oil" for curing rheumatism, etc. (nonspecific illnesses that wax and wane naturally so are well treated with ineffective medicines)

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Snake oil instead of good teaching?