Why No Silver Plate?
- BaritoneJack
- Posts: 78
- Joined: May 30, 2018
Question; is there a reason why most trombones are not silver plated? And why, in fact, many models aren't even offered with the option of silver plate? I'm puzzled by this, as every other brass instruument, from piccolo trumpet to Bb bass, can be had in silver plate - so why are trombones the exception?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
You can get a trombone in silver plate if you want.
In fact, in some areas of the US silver plate is preferred. Especially for High School Marching Bands.
Trombones are generally quite brilliant and making it even more brilliant with a silver finish has proved to be a bad direction. Especially in Symphony Orchestras.
And since the conventional wisdom has gone to lacquer coating, silver just isn't bought much any more.
Back in the early part of the 20th Century silver plate was a very popular option for trombones. But the advent of a good lacquer spray gun in the early 1930s resulted in an exodus away from silver plated instruments.
In fact, in some areas of the US silver plate is preferred. Especially for High School Marching Bands.
Trombones are generally quite brilliant and making it even more brilliant with a silver finish has proved to be a bad direction. Especially in Symphony Orchestras.
And since the conventional wisdom has gone to lacquer coating, silver just isn't bought much any more.
Back in the early part of the 20th Century silver plate was a very popular option for trombones. But the advent of a good lacquer spray gun in the early 1930s resulted in an exodus away from silver plated instruments.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I think it's aesthetics to some degree. There was a time when I liked silver plate but I'm preferring the yellower/gold/red tints these days. Especially on bass bones. Not sure why that is but a piccolo or a trumpet looks quite nice, elegant even, in silver. Again, that's 200% subjective and probaly isn't universal but, there it is!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
It's even rarer to find a French horn in silver plate. Nickel silver and yellow brass are the standards, with the occasional exotic material being used for bell flares.
- BaritoneJack
- Posts: 78
- Joined: May 30, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]You can get a trombone in silver plate if you want.[/quote]
Yes, I know you can get them in silver plate; but what puzzles me is looking at British brass bands - typically, every instrument in the line-up is silver, except for trombones, which are almost invariably lacquered brass. And I can't think of any reason why that should be the case.
Sorry, Bruce - you've lost me, there; what conventional wisdom? It seems to me that the reason so few trombones are sold in silver is because most of them are not available in silver.
Again, we come back to the same point; why did it cause that move away from silver-plated trombones, but not away from silver plated cornets, flugel horns, tenor horns, baritone horns, euphoniums and basses?
Yes, I know you can get them in silver plate; but what puzzles me is looking at British brass bands - typically, every instrument in the line-up is silver, except for trombones, which are almost invariably lacquered brass. And I can't think of any reason why that should be the case.
And since the conventional wisdom has gone to lacquer coating, silver just isn't bought much any more.
Sorry, Bruce - you've lost me, there; what conventional wisdom? It seems to me that the reason so few trombones are sold in silver is because most of them are not available in silver.
Back in the early part of the 20th Century silver plate was a very popular option for trombones. But the advent of a good lacquer spray gun in the early 1930s resulted in an exodus away from silver plated instruments.
Again, we come back to the same point; why did it cause that move away from silver-plated trombones, but not away from silver plated cornets, flugel horns, tenor horns, baritone horns, euphoniums and basses?
- BaritoneJack
- Posts: 78
- Joined: May 30, 2018
[quote="greenbean"]Let's face it: Silver trombones look goofy! :biggrin:[/quote]
Why? Why does another instrument - such as a cornet or euphonium - look fine in silver plate, but a silver plated trombone look 'goofy'? Or are you just trying to wind me up?
Why? Why does another instrument - such as a cornet or euphonium - look fine in silver plate, but a silver plated trombone look 'goofy'? Or are you just trying to wind me up?
- BaritoneJack
- Posts: 78
- Joined: May 30, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]It's even rarer to find a French horn in silver plate. Nickel silver and yellow brass are the standards, with the occasional exotic material being used for bell flares.[/quote]
Yes, but according to what I've been told, french horns are only used in orchestral work - not in brass bands, so I can see that a silver-plated one might well be visually obtrusive in that setting.
Yes, but according to what I've been told, french horns are only used in orchestral work - not in brass bands, so I can see that a silver-plated one might well be visually obtrusive in that setting.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Sorry, Jack. You are sounding like my mother-in-law as she was beginning to settle into senility. She insisted that the world conform to what she wanted instead of being what it was.
If you really want a silver trombone, buy a silver trombone. But the rest of the world wants lacquer. And if you are competing, they probably want you to conform to the norm.
Why do brass bands use silver everything except trombones? Ask some adjudicator some time. They probably can give you a better answer than somebody who doesn't play in one. (And who has several silver plated trombones; all from the 1920s and earlier.)
If you really want a silver trombone, buy a silver trombone. But the rest of the world wants lacquer. And if you are competing, they probably want you to conform to the norm.
Why do brass bands use silver everything except trombones? Ask some adjudicator some time. They probably can give you a better answer than somebody who doesn't play in one. (And who has several silver plated trombones; all from the 1920s and earlier.)
- Zandit75
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Apr 30, 2018
It probably comes down to the fundamentals of how troms are made. There is not another brass instrument that is built like it, and no other brass instrument operates the same way.
I may be wrong, but I would imagine that the standard trombone has the least resistance of any brass instrument, and this would be reflected in tone/sound.
The British style Brass Band that I play in originally had every single instrument in silver plate. Additionally, every Instrument was a Besson. This was more of a traditional thing, or maybe even based on the fact that we idolised the British bands, at at that time, they were all playing Bessons also(I'm talking late 80's, early 90's).
The original student troms I started playing on were gold lacquered Yammi's and I lusted after the silver Bb&F Bessons that the senior members of the band were playing on.
Put it this way, I would not trade in my Shires Bass for anything now. Everythig I have played since doesn't come anywhere near it for sound quality(to my ear at least)
I may be wrong, but I would imagine that the standard trombone has the least resistance of any brass instrument, and this would be reflected in tone/sound.
The British style Brass Band that I play in originally had every single instrument in silver plate. Additionally, every Instrument was a Besson. This was more of a traditional thing, or maybe even based on the fact that we idolised the British bands, at at that time, they were all playing Bessons also(I'm talking late 80's, early 90's).
The original student troms I started playing on were gold lacquered Yammi's and I lusted after the silver Bb&F Bessons that the senior members of the band were playing on.
Put it this way, I would not trade in my Shires Bass for anything now. Everythig I have played since doesn't come anywhere near it for sound quality(to my ear at least)
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Tradition is the only real reason. Silver plate fell out of vogue on the trombone around the 20s or 30s. That's about it.
I think a huge reason you don't see silver plate on trombones make a come back is because it costs extra!!! We trombone players are a rather cheap bunch :pant:
If you want to go crazy I recall there being a number of informative threads on this in the original tromboneforums which should be in the trombonechat archive.
If you want a silver plated bone though, go for it. But there really aren't any benefits to it over lacquer or raw brass these days.
I think a huge reason you don't see silver plate on trombones make a come back is because it costs extra!!! We trombone players are a rather cheap bunch :pant:
If you want to go crazy I recall there being a number of informative threads on this in the original tromboneforums which should be in the trombonechat archive.
If you want a silver plated bone though, go for it. But there really aren't any benefits to it over lacquer or raw brass these days.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
It is very close to universal in the euphonium world that if you are a professional player (or aspire to be one, or aspire to graduate school in euphonium), then you had better have a SILVER euphonium or risk being considered an uncultured and unskilled slug. (Full disclosure, my euphonia and primary tuba are lacquer -- since I detest caring for a silver finish. Also, I have no aspirations.)
Luckily, trombonists don't seem to have this attitude.
Luckily, trombonists don't seem to have this attitude.
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
You can still buy silver plated horns-- Bach, among others, offer this. The lead player in the big band I play with has one.
Trombones also have a variety of sterling silver bell options (King, Conn, others) and elemental silver (Bach) that seem as common as silver plate itself. Why silver plate when you can get something cooler?
Another thing to think about is that a large fraction of slides are nickel silver in color, so why bother silver plating that if you're just going for aesthetic reasons?
Trombones also have a variety of sterling silver bell options (King, Conn, others) and elemental silver (Bach) that seem as common as silver plate itself. Why silver plate when you can get something cooler?
Another thing to think about is that a large fraction of slides are nickel silver in color, so why bother silver plating that if you're just going for aesthetic reasons?
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
This is my wild guess, but I think maybe it has something to do with the point of contact. Come to think of it, trombone have an additional point of direct contact at the gooseneck-player’s neck, instead of only mostly at the valves. And to be honest, having a patch of tarnished bare brass exposed there looks awful.
Another reason, again a wild guess, is the trombone sound concept at least for orchestra leans toward “darker” tone, in contrary of other instruments of which the sound concept is more of personal preference. while tone of silver-plated horns is perceived as “brighter”, either because the lacquer really deadens the sound or only placebo from the visual effect of the silver.
The last, and maybe this is silly in my part, but I think trombones by its own looks quite bland, without all the valves and tubings of other horns. Having the two- (or three-) tone color helps make it looks more beautiful.
Another reason, again a wild guess, is the trombone sound concept at least for orchestra leans toward “darker” tone, in contrary of other instruments of which the sound concept is more of personal preference. while tone of silver-plated horns is perceived as “brighter”, either because the lacquer really deadens the sound or only placebo from the visual effect of the silver.
The last, and maybe this is silly in my part, but I think trombones by its own looks quite bland, without all the valves and tubings of other horns. Having the two- (or three-) tone color helps make it looks more beautiful.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
sirisobhakya, I never though about the patch of wear on the gooseneck! That's a good point.
I totally agree that trombones in particular look better lacquered or raw brass. Why would you want to cover up a gold brass or red brass bell with silver plate?
I totally agree that trombones in particular look better lacquered or raw brass. Why would you want to cover up a gold brass or red brass bell with silver plate?
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
That's one reason I like how the Silversonics look-- I really dig the gold wash inside the bell with the silver bell. They have the gold lacquered crooks too...very visually interesting. The aesthetic touches don't do anything for the sound, but they do look cool.
Fun to play too! Been halfheartedly trying to find a place to do a similar bell gold wash on my sterling Bach.
Fun to play too! Been halfheartedly trying to find a place to do a similar bell gold wash on my sterling Bach.
- shider
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Apr 30, 2018
I would assume the general volume of instruments produced has gotten higher and most of that growth happened in the lower price category, i would believe thats the school-bought and "student"-lines of manufacturers. I don't believe a silver plating gets much cheaper with rising numbers. Galvanising (of large areas) is a relatively expensive process and can't be blown up as fast and cheaply as a "simple" laquering job. Because of that i think the manufacturing for a large amount of horns is simply better scaleable with laquer and the manufacturer profits from scale effects more. In addition the laquer today used might be completely different from the one used when most instruments where plated.
Also, someone mentioned they don't like taking care of the silver plate. Specifically for student-instruments i think the higher maintenance for the finish of the horn will be considered. Either by the school looking to buy or by parents looking for their kid. A laquered horn doesn't have to be maintained as much and one can "hide" spots where the laquer has worn of by polishing them (and they won't show as obviously from different colors), whereas with a silver plate over brass you see every worn off spot as a yellow brassy spot in the finish even from far away.
The fact that most horns today (even the expensive ones) are laquered in their standard configuration might aswell be due to the manufacturer being set up to do laquering but not for galvanising and have to outsource this step when someone orders it, therefore the hightened cost for the customer.
If anyone has information that i don't have i'm always eager to learn and get educated :biggrin:
Greetings,
shider
Also, someone mentioned they don't like taking care of the silver plate. Specifically for student-instruments i think the higher maintenance for the finish of the horn will be considered. Either by the school looking to buy or by parents looking for their kid. A laquered horn doesn't have to be maintained as much and one can "hide" spots where the laquer has worn of by polishing them (and they won't show as obviously from different colors), whereas with a silver plate over brass you see every worn off spot as a yellow brassy spot in the finish even from far away.
The fact that most horns today (even the expensive ones) are laquered in their standard configuration might aswell be due to the manufacturer being set up to do laquering but not for galvanising and have to outsource this step when someone orders it, therefore the hightened cost for the customer.
If anyone has information that i don't have i'm always eager to learn and get educated :biggrin:
Greetings,
shider
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
Back in the day I worked in Europe with a couple of players who had Stomvi horns. I believe Silver plated tbn's are still used in parts of Spain.
https://stomvi.com/en/trombones
There's a couple of silver plates in here as well..
<YOUTUBE id="d9xco0i1xeY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9xco0i1xeY</YOUTUBE>
https://stomvi.com/en/trombones
There's a couple of silver plates in here as well..
<YOUTUBE id="d9xco0i1xeY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9xco0i1xeY</YOUTUBE>
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BaritoneJack"]Yes, but according to what I've been told, french horns are only used in orchestral work - not in brass bands, so I can see that a silver-plated one might well be visually obtrusive in that setting.[/quote]
At a reasonable distance, a silver-plated brass horn would blend visually (maybe not acoustically) with nickel silver horns.
At a reasonable distance, a silver-plated brass horn would blend visually (maybe not acoustically) with nickel silver horns.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
A few years back I was attending a one-month conducting workshop. The festival orchestra was all grad students and young professionals of very high level and sounded great on top of being a joy to work with. Somehow, they omitted inviting a second tenor trombone player and ended up asking me to step in last minute when they moved from a Beethoven 6 program to Dvorak and realized they were short one player, except I hadn't brought my horn with me.... They managed to borrow a horn from the college that was hosting the festival. I open the case and what is my surprise to find an entirely silver plated Bach 42. Convertible but it was in straight configuration. Got to play that horn for 2 weeks, and it was one of warmest sounding, most flexible and fun to play 42s I've ever tried. It was gorgeous looking, and it certainly was still very much 42-sounding and rather dark. It was definitely not too bright to blend with my colleagues. Were any of its qualities due only to the plating? I don't know and I doubt it, but the notion that a horn being sliver plated will make it sound so different you can't blend is kind of absurd and unique to the classical trombone world. How many times do we hear trumpet sections with a mix of different finishes, and that doesn't affect their ability to blend they all still sound like trumpets. Both a silver plated euphonium and a brass one still sound like a euphonium. Or how often do trombones have mixed finishes in a big band section? Can they still blend?.....
I think silver plate being out of fashion probably originally didn't have much to do with a preference in sound, and more to do with demand dropping for reasons that are outside the musical realm, and the option stopped being advertised (even though it always remains available) simply because there was no demand. But yeah, it's not coming back as long as people accept the ideas that a) silver plate will automatically make a horn much brighter and that b) any brightness in a trombone is bad and we need to dump any horn that doesn't give us a massive, fat wall of utter darkness.....
I think silver plate being out of fashion probably originally didn't have much to do with a preference in sound, and more to do with demand dropping for reasons that are outside the musical realm, and the option stopped being advertised (even though it always remains available) simply because there was no demand. But yeah, it's not coming back as long as people accept the ideas that a) silver plate will automatically make a horn much brighter and that b) any brightness in a trombone is bad and we need to dump any horn that doesn't give us a massive, fat wall of utter darkness.....
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Personally, I just don't like the look of silver plated large trombones! But funny that I dig the look of peashooter Kings & Conns! Especially satin finish with the gold burnished engraving!! And I LOVE the sterling bells.
Just not large tenors or basses. Don't know why & don't press for an explanation!
Eric
Just not large tenors or basses. Don't know why & don't press for an explanation!
Eric
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
There may have been quite a tonal difference between silver and lacquer finished horns in the days when the the lacquer was applied with a paint roller, like on my '80's 3B, but with modern application methods?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Pre59"]There may have been quite a tonal difference between silver and lacquer finished horns in the days when the the lacquer was applied with a paint roller, like on my '80's 3B, but with modern application methods?[/quote]
Lacquer hasn't been applied with a paint roller for at least 80 years.
Lacquer hasn't been applied with a paint roller for at least 80 years.
- BaritoneJack
- Posts: 78
- Joined: May 30, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Sorry, Jack. You are sounding like my mother-in-law as she was beginning to settle into senility. She insisted that the world conform to what she wanted instead of being what it was.[/quote]
Well, Bruce, if your aim was to be downright offensive, you've succeeded.
I asked what I thought - and still think - was a perfectly polite and reasonable question. I wasn't "insisting that the world should conform to what I wanted"; just asking about something that puzzled me. And your response is to say that I reminded you of somebody sinking into senility.
You know what you sound like to me, Bruce? An arrogant, obnoxious idiot.
Well, Bruce, if your aim was to be downright offensive, you've succeeded.
I asked what I thought - and still think - was a perfectly polite and reasonable question. I wasn't "insisting that the world should conform to what I wanted"; just asking about something that puzzled me. And your response is to say that I reminded you of somebody sinking into senility.
You know what you sound like to me, Bruce? An arrogant, obnoxious idiot.
- FeelMyRath
- Posts: 81
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Pre59" post_id="64168" time="1532711445" user_id="3278">
There may have been quite a tonal difference between silver and lacquer finished horns in the days when the the lacquer was applied with a paint roller, like on my '80's 3B, but with modern application methods?[/quote]
Lacquer hasn't been applied with a paint roller for at least 80 years.
</QUOTE>
I think he was taking about a metaphorical paint roller, not an actual one.
There may have been quite a tonal difference between silver and lacquer finished horns in the days when the the lacquer was applied with a paint roller, like on my '80's 3B, but with modern application methods?[/quote]
Lacquer hasn't been applied with a paint roller for at least 80 years.
</QUOTE>
I think he was taking about a metaphorical paint roller, not an actual one.
- mrpillow
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Now now everybody, let's play nice or we won't get to play at all.
Silver-plated trombones went out of fashion far quicker in the US than in the UK. They were never really IN fashion in the Germanic regions that influenced symphonic trombone design in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The small US instruments and UK designs took much more of their influence from the French school of the mid-19th century, particularly the patterns of Courtois.
A pretty even split is seen in trombone finishes before 1930. Instruments coming from the narrow bore French school of design were finished in silver plating or nickel plating. Instruments from the Germanic and related schools were finished in raw brass with nickel-silver trim. Around 1930 is when American makers really split their instruments into two categories: large bore and small bore. The large bore and small bore respectively were amalgamations of the German and French traditions, and seemingly brought their preferences for finishes along with them.
What happened after that point I can't much say.
Silver-plated trombones went out of fashion far quicker in the US than in the UK. They were never really IN fashion in the Germanic regions that influenced symphonic trombone design in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The small US instruments and UK designs took much more of their influence from the French school of the mid-19th century, particularly the patterns of Courtois.
A pretty even split is seen in trombone finishes before 1930. Instruments coming from the narrow bore French school of design were finished in silver plating or nickel plating. Instruments from the Germanic and related schools were finished in raw brass with nickel-silver trim. Around 1930 is when American makers really split their instruments into two categories: large bore and small bore. The large bore and small bore respectively were amalgamations of the German and French traditions, and seemingly brought their preferences for finishes along with them.
What happened after that point I can't much say.
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
[quote="FeelMyRath"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="64169" time="1532712687" user_id="53">
Lacquer hasn't been applied with a paint roller for at least 80 years.[/quote]
I think he was taking about a metaphorical paint roller, not an actual one.
</QUOTE>
This is true..
Lacquer hasn't been applied with a paint roller for at least 80 years.[/quote]
I think he was taking about a metaphorical paint roller, not an actual one.
</QUOTE>
This is true..
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
A 1980s King does not have thick lacquer. If you'd like to see thick lacquer, I have a turquoise trombone that looks pretty but plays lousy. That's thick lacquer.
Jack, the tone of your question struck me as insinuating that silver trombones should be the norm and why wasn't this so. I don't have an answer for this. Fact remains, trombones are more popular in lacquer over brass than in silver plate; at least since the advent of decent spray nozzles in the 1930s. If you took umbrage about my response please accept my apologies; I didn't intend to cast aspersions on you without proof.
Jack, the tone of your question struck me as insinuating that silver trombones should be the norm and why wasn't this so. I don't have an answer for this. Fact remains, trombones are more popular in lacquer over brass than in silver plate; at least since the advent of decent spray nozzles in the 1930s. If you took umbrage about my response please accept my apologies; I didn't intend to cast aspersions on you without proof.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
I think it more or less boils down to aesthetic and tradition at this point. Cornets and all other British brass band instrument have traditionally been silver-plated so they are still silver-plated. Trumpets is often silver-plated in orchestra to go with the cornet, maybe? And also the tradition of thinking silver-plated horns are brighter than lacquered horns.
Personally, I used to like silver-plated horn. My school has a silver-plated Bach 42C (other “high-level” horns are all lacquered) and I thought it was beautiful and unique. I eventually got to use it, but could not say it is brighter or not due to it having other contributing factors like leaky valve. Too bad my taste has changed a bit, and even if I had money for silver plating I would not order my first bass to be silver-plated. I still want a silver-plated tenorbass (I have seen some silver-plates 800-series Yamaha on Yahoo Auction Japan, but I don’t live there anymore and have no money right now :weep: ), solely because it looks unique.
Personally, I used to like silver-plated horn. My school has a silver-plated Bach 42C (other “high-level” horns are all lacquered) and I thought it was beautiful and unique. I eventually got to use it, but could not say it is brighter or not due to it having other contributing factors like leaky valve. Too bad my taste has changed a bit, and even if I had money for silver plating I would not order my first bass to be silver-plated. I still want a silver-plated tenorbass (I have seen some silver-plates 800-series Yamaha on Yahoo Auction Japan, but I don’t live there anymore and have no money right now :weep: ), solely because it looks unique.
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]A 1980s King does not have thick lacquer. If you'd like to see thick lacquer, I have a turquoise trombone that looks pretty but plays lousy. That's thick lacquer.
[/quote]
Mine does, where the lacquer has worn away around the neck pipe, it's possible to see the thickness. As opposed to my Rath where the lacquer lasted about 2 months in the same area, and had a smooth transition.
Have any opinion by all means, but please don't deny my lived experience.
[/quote]
Mine does, where the lacquer has worn away around the neck pipe, it's possible to see the thickness. As opposed to my Rath where the lacquer lasted about 2 months in the same area, and had a smooth transition.
Have any opinion by all means, but please don't deny my lived experience.
- BflatBass
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BaritoneJack"]Question; is there a reason why most trombones are not silver plated? And why, in fact, many models aren't even offered with the option of silver plate? I'm puzzled by this, as every other brass instruument, from piccolo trumpet to Bb bass, can be had in silver plate - so why are trombones the exception?[/quote]
Thanks for asking this question Jack. I see the same thing. I play primarily in community bands so I'm not exposed to the more professional end of the spectrum of horn players but still, I don't see any all silver trombones. An occasional Silver Sonic but that's it. And lots of all silver trumpets, tubas and baritones.
Like some others have stated, it seems like it just boils down to popularity. Maybe in a few years that will change? Who knows.
Cheers,
Robert
Thanks for asking this question Jack. I see the same thing. I play primarily in community bands so I'm not exposed to the more professional end of the spectrum of horn players but still, I don't see any all silver trombones. An occasional Silver Sonic but that's it. And lots of all silver trumpets, tubas and baritones.
Like some others have stated, it seems like it just boils down to popularity. Maybe in a few years that will change? Who knows.
Cheers,
Robert
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I`ve had several silver plated horns over the years. I just sold a silver Getzen Canadian Brass model.
My all time favorite and I`m so sorry that I Had to sell it, 1928 Satin Silver Conn 78H.
One of the Best playing .522 horns I ever played
My all time favorite and I`m so sorry that I Had to sell it, 1928 Satin Silver Conn 78H.
One of the Best playing .522 horns I ever played
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
I would like to point out that the comment by OP about tubas being silver-plated which isn't always true.
Depends if the tuba is American, German or British. American and German tubas are almost never silver plated. While almost all Bessons are plated.
Around LA everyone is playing some sort of either Mirafone 185, 186, and a smattering of 5/4 CC stuff or York Style 6/4 something. The Mirafones are never silver-plated, and the larger 5/4 and 6/4 American York style stuff seems to be a 50 50 shot on whether it's played or not. Yamaha and Eastman seem to like to plate things while Kanstul and many German manufacturers aren't as keen on doing it.
Bessons on the other hand are all almost always plated but in the American and German orchestral scene you are almost never going to see a Besson.
Depends if the tuba is American, German or British. American and German tubas are almost never silver plated. While almost all Bessons are plated.
Around LA everyone is playing some sort of either Mirafone 185, 186, and a smattering of 5/4 CC stuff or York Style 6/4 something. The Mirafones are never silver-plated, and the larger 5/4 and 6/4 American York style stuff seems to be a 50 50 shot on whether it's played or not. Yamaha and Eastman seem to like to plate things while Kanstul and many German manufacturers aren't as keen on doing it.
Bessons on the other hand are all almost always plated but in the American and German orchestral scene you are almost never going to see a Besson.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BaritoneJack"]Why? Why does another instrument - such as a cornet or euphonium - look fine in silver plate, but a silver plated trombone look 'goofy'? Or are you just trying to wind me up?[/quote]
Why would I want to wind you up?...
Just my opinion.
Why would I want to wind you up?...
Just my opinion.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
[quote="Pre59"]Back in the day I worked in Europe with a couple of players who had Stomvi horns. I believe Silver plated tbn's are still used in parts of Spain.
https://stomvi.com/en/trombones
There's a couple of silver plates in here as well..
<YOUTUBE id="d9xco0i1xeY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9xco0i1xeY</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
Nice clip! Good band! The silver trombones look realy nice too.
My first trombone that I owned was a silver plated one. It belongs to one of my brothers now, or his dougthter.
Of some mysterious reason silverplated trombones went out of fashion, strange because that did not happend to all other brasses (except french horns). The sound? It has absolutely nothing to do with sound. Just fashion. I see that so far no one could explain why it is so.
https://stomvi.com/en/trombones
There's a couple of silver plates in here as well..
<YOUTUBE id="d9xco0i1xeY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9xco0i1xeY</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
Nice clip! Good band! The silver trombones look realy nice too.
My first trombone that I owned was a silver plated one. It belongs to one of my brothers now, or his dougthter.
Of some mysterious reason silverplated trombones went out of fashion, strange because that did not happend to all other brasses (except french horns). The sound? It has absolutely nothing to do with sound. Just fashion. I see that so far no one could explain why it is so.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Of course we can't explain why silver plate isn't popular, which is what I tried to say (ineptly) to the original poster.
There are pockets where silver plated trombones are popular, but it seems that lacquered (or even unlacquered) predominates.
There are pockets where silver plated trombones are popular, but it seems that lacquered (or even unlacquered) predominates.
- Chiptingle
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Apr 30, 2018
Luis Bonilla!!!
- DutchGuy
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Jun 25, 2018
You are right about nearly every trombone being lacquered. I feel that in the Netherlands, there are quite a few silver plated ones though. In all bands I play in, at least 1 person has a silver plated trombone. I see quite a few on the Dutch second hand market as well. I'd say that right now about 1 out of every 6 second-hand trombones in the Netherlands is silver plated.
It's really strange though. Saxophones, french Horns and trombones are mostly lacquered, whereas trumpets, euphoniums and tuba's are mostly silver plated. There is no specific difference between the two groups. Tubas are large, trumpets are small, but both are mostly silver plated. Saxophones also exist in many sizes yet nearly all are lacquer. Trombones are simple, french horns are complex, yet both are mostly laquered...
Some people suggest that they sound differently, but I don't think that anyone can really hear that difference. Whatever difference exists between two instruments is just the difference between those instruments. It would be there if they were the same finish as well.
I guess it's just whatever everyone is used to. As long manufactures keep offering lacquer as the standard option, and pro's and community bands keep purchasing the standard option, that's what everyone is playing.
It's really strange though. Saxophones, french Horns and trombones are mostly lacquered, whereas trumpets, euphoniums and tuba's are mostly silver plated. There is no specific difference between the two groups. Tubas are large, trumpets are small, but both are mostly silver plated. Saxophones also exist in many sizes yet nearly all are lacquer. Trombones are simple, french horns are complex, yet both are mostly laquered...
Some people suggest that they sound differently, but I don't think that anyone can really hear that difference. Whatever difference exists between two instruments is just the difference between those instruments. It would be there if they were the same finish as well.
I guess it's just whatever everyone is used to. As long manufactures keep offering lacquer as the standard option, and pro's and community bands keep purchasing the standard option, that's what everyone is playing.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="DutchGuy"]Some people suggest that they sound differently, but I don't think that anyone can really hear that difference. Whatever difference exists between two instruments is just the difference between those instruments. It would be there if they were the same finish as well.[/quote]
You will get a HUGE argument about this view from the euphonium community, where I don't think you'll find anyone who believes there isn't a significant difference in sound across different bell materials and finishes. Several euphonium manufacturers allow you to pick your choice from an array of bell materials, and in general the silver or silver plate ones are favored -- for the sound. It seems to be partly a matter of the material and resulting sound itself, but also a matter of how thin the bell can be made with the different materials. There is a general belief (that I think cannot be dismissed as subjective) that the silver plating or silver alloys produce a more vibrant sound than lacquer does. Compare this to how trombonists feel about different materials for lead pipes. :shock:
I suspect that one reason there are so many silver-plated euphoniums is because of the desire to have a silver or silver-plated bell section (and then have the rest of the instrument match).
Regarding trumpets, one factor there is simply their size -- and the related economics. It just doesn't cost all that much to plate a trumpet!!
Concerning tubas, I don't know. There is a long history (particularly in the US and the UK) of silver-plated tubas going back well into the 19th century. My 1924 Buescher has an amazingly thick silver plating on it. Not so much a common feature of German horns, it seems to me. But tubas, like euphoniums are full conical bore (except through the valve section), and the bell material may simply make a bigger difference for those instruments.
Also, keep in mind that modern lacquers are an ENORMOUS improvement over those used in years past -- and some of this has been relatively recent. So for a long time, if you wanted a finish that would stand the test of time, it had to be silver. That's not true any longer.
You will get a HUGE argument about this view from the euphonium community, where I don't think you'll find anyone who believes there isn't a significant difference in sound across different bell materials and finishes. Several euphonium manufacturers allow you to pick your choice from an array of bell materials, and in general the silver or silver plate ones are favored -- for the sound. It seems to be partly a matter of the material and resulting sound itself, but also a matter of how thin the bell can be made with the different materials. There is a general belief (that I think cannot be dismissed as subjective) that the silver plating or silver alloys produce a more vibrant sound than lacquer does. Compare this to how trombonists feel about different materials for lead pipes. :shock:
I suspect that one reason there are so many silver-plated euphoniums is because of the desire to have a silver or silver-plated bell section (and then have the rest of the instrument match).
Regarding trumpets, one factor there is simply their size -- and the related economics. It just doesn't cost all that much to plate a trumpet!!
Concerning tubas, I don't know. There is a long history (particularly in the US and the UK) of silver-plated tubas going back well into the 19th century. My 1924 Buescher has an amazingly thick silver plating on it. Not so much a common feature of German horns, it seems to me. But tubas, like euphoniums are full conical bore (except through the valve section), and the bell material may simply make a bigger difference for those instruments.
Also, keep in mind that modern lacquers are an ENORMOUS improvement over those used in years past -- and some of this has been relatively recent. So for a long time, if you wanted a finish that would stand the test of time, it had to be silver. That's not true any longer.
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
Does anyone else remember when it was a simple matter to have a mouthpiece silver-plated ? It seemed that there were a number of choices within every town of any size where plating could be contracted for anything from a tea pot to a tuba. Even my instrument repairman had a few vats of caustic chemicals in the corner of his shop where he'd pop your mouthpiece for a quick refresh while he undid the latest damage to your "ax". Then, one day I asked for a re-plate job and was refused ---- the reason being that new environmental laws had been enacted and it was necessary to be licensed [i.e. -- expensive !] to maintain a plating business. The toxic fumes that had been emanating from these facilities were no longer going to be tolerated without proper care and handling. While the spraying of lacquer is almost akin to an automotive body shop where any overspray is handled with fans and filters, the product of plating requires more stringent control. I'm thinking that silver plating became such a nuisance to achieve that instrument manufacturers simply took the path of least resistance and used lacquer instead. I wonder if those manufacturers who still plate instruments do it "in house" or send the parts out to a specialty plater ? Anybody know ? Anyway ---- that is my theory and I am unanimous in it ! [ credit : Mrs. Slocum in "Are You Being Served" ?] Incidentally, I recently inquired about the difference in price of a Jinbao bass trombone in lacquer or plated with nickle. Only $45 !! That's the difference in the policies of a country with lousy environmental laws ! They are starting to wake up ----------- too late ?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Solver is plated from a cyanide solution. Nickel is plated from a different salt (several are used).
The gas from a plating operation is generally hydrogen and oxygen. Some of the baths have fumes that need to be controlled, although cyanide is a special case. Same goes for rinse waters.
Note that chrome plating is even worse. The chromium salt used in plating is severely regulated and any discharge can get a big fine.
There are a couple of large plating shops that will plate musical instruments. Many makers use Anderson Plating. For a mouthpiece you may be able to set up a small plater in a corner of the shop, but it's not really worth it.
The gas from a plating operation is generally hydrogen and oxygen. Some of the baths have fumes that need to be controlled, although cyanide is a special case. Same goes for rinse waters.
Note that chrome plating is even worse. The chromium salt used in plating is severely regulated and any discharge can get a big fine.
There are a couple of large plating shops that will plate musical instruments. Many makers use Anderson Plating. For a mouthpiece you may be able to set up a small plater in a corner of the shop, but it's not really worth it.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I'm pretty sure that almost everyone sends stuff to Anderson. However, I also think (THINK) that mouthpieces I've had worked on by Kanstul were replated in their shop. It's easy to understand why it's not economically feasible to get all the equipment, set up the work environment, and get all the permits and approvals (fire department, etc.) unless you do a substantial volume of work. For similar reasons (though the resulting situation is actually worse in terms of availability), it's virtually impossible to buy black powder locally. The regulations (and insurance requirements) are just so severe that only someone running a pretty high volume operation to a large national demographic can make it work (and even then, a high hazmat fee is charged for each order, which in turn is limited to 50 lbs.).
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]However, I also think (THINK) that mouthpieces I've had worked on by Kanstul were replated in their shop.[/quote]
When I went through the factory a few years ago, Kanstul had a silver plating facility on the premises. Makes sense for them, since a lot of the the marching bugles they build are ordered in silver plate and Elkhart (i.e., Anderson) is a long way off.
When I went through the factory a few years ago, Kanstul had a silver plating facility on the premises. Makes sense for them, since a lot of the the marching bugles they build are ordered in silver plate and Elkhart (i.e., Anderson) is a long way off.
- bellend
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I'm pretty sure it's just a fashion thing pure and simple.
The current horn I play is pretty had to find and I ended up with a silver plated one which would not have been my personal choice but over time I've come to really like it. I have since got hold of a lacquered example and I wouldn't say the silver one is any brighter, if anything it's a bit darker sounding.
Funny how T.D. played gold plated horns and nobody questions that??? it's just a colour thing.
A fiend who worked at Besson said it may have been built for export to a country with a very hot and or humid climate as they did not export lacquered horn to these places as it tended to drop off.
FWIW
BellEnd
The current horn I play is pretty had to find and I ended up with a silver plated one which would not have been my personal choice but over time I've come to really like it. I have since got hold of a lacquered example and I wouldn't say the silver one is any brighter, if anything it's a bit darker sounding.
Funny how T.D. played gold plated horns and nobody questions that??? it's just a colour thing.
A fiend who worked at Besson said it may have been built for export to a country with a very hot and or humid climate as they did not export lacquered horn to these places as it tended to drop off.
FWIW
BellEnd
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="bellend"]A fiend who worked at Besson[/quote]
I always thought Besson horns were a little fiendish.
I always thought Besson horns were a little fiendish.
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Many do listen with there eyes. I get a lot of odd comments from my sterling silver Edwards as if it was silver plate. I do not polish it very often so many times it does not appear to be silver.
My trumpet friends say silver plate, gold plate and no lacquer are more responsive. Some say that lets them get brighter. Others say more responsive gives them more color to the sound.
My brass Edwards is more responsive without lacquer. Christian at Edwards had a horn of his gold plated so he could not have lacquer and still have a nice look. Canadian Brass use gold plate for the look without lacquer.
So despite how nice silver looks, some really do look at silver as something wrong.
My trumpet friends say silver plate, gold plate and no lacquer are more responsive. Some say that lets them get brighter. Others say more responsive gives them more color to the sound.
My brass Edwards is more responsive without lacquer. Christian at Edwards had a horn of his gold plated so he could not have lacquer and still have a nice look. Canadian Brass use gold plate for the look without lacquer.
So despite how nice silver looks, some really do look at silver as something wrong.
- BrassedOn
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Aug 23, 2018
[quote="mrdeacon"]If you want a silver plated bone though, go for it. But there really aren't any benefits to it over lacquer or raw brass these days.[/quote]
That's it Mr Deacon.
If there were an aesthetic trend, it would ultimately reverse, such as the weird silver Bach 42 trend I saw in the 1990s. Uggh. Having grown up in the trombone culture, it just looks wrong. And could have helped Edward's on it's takeover of the market.
The marching band thing, is what it is. A row of silver sousa just looks cool. And the military connection for uniformity. Maybe someone could argue that the silver protects from sweat, but so does wiping down your horn often, cleaning it weekly during the marching season, washing your hands frequently, and not drinking gatorade or sprite during practice, but I don't see those happening. My silver horns played outdoors a lot, will pit.
I think military bands (which rule the world for euphs), silver is ubiquitous. That trend is not going anywhere. Just try selling a lacquer Willson 2900, if you could even find one. Adams euph is trying to stir the pot with brushed brass lacquer and such. Wessex is trying to get people on board for gold plated button and valve caps. I think if you won a military audition on a brushed brass lacquer Adams or a blinged out euph, you'd be buying a silver plate version for the job. Same as if you won the audition on a front action; you'd just have to switch to top action equipment regardless of how it sounded. Marching and military are in part visual media.
As far as euphs and tubas, I've owned silver and lacquer for both. My favorite euph was a lacquer Miraphone and my favorite tuba is King satin silver. When I play tested tubas, my pal preferred the sound of the lacquer on the same model (and all of his tubas were lacquer). I did not hear a difference in the playback, but the silver happened to be more open on notes I care about. I think manufacture, not finish. I have heard a difference in silver plate, silver, and lacquer 3Bs, and prefer a SilverSonic.
My orchestra tuba pals routinely rotate in horns of all finishes from heavily tarnished raw brass to highly polished silver plate. Granted, it is usually a "solo" player for the whole tuba section, but, I don't think any comment come the tubists way unless the lighting tech reflects light of the bell into the conductor's eyes.
Maybe because trombones can have as few as 1 moving part, as a group we trend toward utility. Not because we're dim or thrifty, but because it just works for most of us. Our first reaction as young learners was when we finally had a horn with a great slide. A mechanical advantage that made us play and sound better.
If more brilliant tones were in vogue, which I think we'd agree is not on the horizon, (insert your trombone hero) would buy a silver horn and the next generation of college students might make the plunge. But with the modular trombone options out their, and demonstrable effects of composition of brass in tuning slides, bells, leadpipes etc., any trend would be loudly overridden, as the current options have made a clear distinction for a lot of players.
That's it Mr Deacon.
If there were an aesthetic trend, it would ultimately reverse, such as the weird silver Bach 42 trend I saw in the 1990s. Uggh. Having grown up in the trombone culture, it just looks wrong. And could have helped Edward's on it's takeover of the market.
The marching band thing, is what it is. A row of silver sousa just looks cool. And the military connection for uniformity. Maybe someone could argue that the silver protects from sweat, but so does wiping down your horn often, cleaning it weekly during the marching season, washing your hands frequently, and not drinking gatorade or sprite during practice, but I don't see those happening. My silver horns played outdoors a lot, will pit.
I think military bands (which rule the world for euphs), silver is ubiquitous. That trend is not going anywhere. Just try selling a lacquer Willson 2900, if you could even find one. Adams euph is trying to stir the pot with brushed brass lacquer and such. Wessex is trying to get people on board for gold plated button and valve caps. I think if you won a military audition on a brushed brass lacquer Adams or a blinged out euph, you'd be buying a silver plate version for the job. Same as if you won the audition on a front action; you'd just have to switch to top action equipment regardless of how it sounded. Marching and military are in part visual media.
As far as euphs and tubas, I've owned silver and lacquer for both. My favorite euph was a lacquer Miraphone and my favorite tuba is King satin silver. When I play tested tubas, my pal preferred the sound of the lacquer on the same model (and all of his tubas were lacquer). I did not hear a difference in the playback, but the silver happened to be more open on notes I care about. I think manufacture, not finish. I have heard a difference in silver plate, silver, and lacquer 3Bs, and prefer a SilverSonic.
My orchestra tuba pals routinely rotate in horns of all finishes from heavily tarnished raw brass to highly polished silver plate. Granted, it is usually a "solo" player for the whole tuba section, but, I don't think any comment come the tubists way unless the lighting tech reflects light of the bell into the conductor's eyes.
Maybe because trombones can have as few as 1 moving part, as a group we trend toward utility. Not because we're dim or thrifty, but because it just works for most of us. Our first reaction as young learners was when we finally had a horn with a great slide. A mechanical advantage that made us play and sound better.
If more brilliant tones were in vogue, which I think we'd agree is not on the horizon, (insert your trombone hero) would buy a silver horn and the next generation of college students might make the plunge. But with the modular trombone options out their, and demonstrable effects of composition of brass in tuning slides, bells, leadpipes etc., any trend would be loudly overridden, as the current options have made a clear distinction for a lot of players.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
I was under the impression that silver does not cause a more brilliant sound, rather it was like having raw brass without the raw brass upkeep. And raw brass, according to Edwards, provided a wider sound.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="norbie2018"]I was under the impression that silver does not cause a more brilliant sound, rather it was like having raw brass without the raw brass upkeep. And raw brass, according to Edwards, provided a wider sound.[/quote]
The irony is many players consider the upkeep for silver plate to be worse than that of raw brass. Raw brass is pretty easy to polish up and make look nice while silver plate is a pain in the %*& to polish up when you let it go for too long.
Raw brass looks pretty good when you let the patina get really dark while silver plate looks pretty nasty when it tarnishes a lot.
As you can tell from my tone I'm biased towards one side so maybe I'm not the best person to ask but that's my opinion on it!
The irony is many players consider the upkeep for silver plate to be worse than that of raw brass. Raw brass is pretty easy to polish up and make look nice while silver plate is a pain in the %*& to polish up when you let it go for too long.
Raw brass looks pretty good when you let the patina get really dark while silver plate looks pretty nasty when it tarnishes a lot.
As you can tell from my tone I'm biased towards one side so maybe I'm not the best person to ask but that's my opinion on it!
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
Silver ? Brass ?? Gold ??? Everybody get ready ---- here comes Carbon Fibre !!
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="2bobone"]Silver ? Brass ?? Gold ??? Everybody get ready ---- here comes Carbon Fibre !![/quote]
And for the requisite follow on question...
Lacquer, or unfinished! :lol: :lol: :lol:
--Andy in OKC
And for the requisite follow on question...
Lacquer, or unfinished! :lol: :lol: :lol:
--Andy in OKC
- Mikebmiller
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I am really digging my Lawler in brushed red brass. Beautiful instrument.
- walldaja
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Jul 11, 2018
When I was younger I played in Salvation Army bands in the US. The requirement for us was to have all silver instruments, not lacquered brass. I played my silver horn in those bands as well as my high school bands. After living with both types of finish, I really don't miss having to remove the tarnish on my silver instruments. Wish all of my silver plated instruments were lacquered now.
So two reasons against silver finishes--they require a lot more maintenance and they usually cost more. Not sure if those factors may be driving the train. Also wonder if the plating industry has a say--it is a nasty environment?
So two reasons against silver finishes--they require a lot more maintenance and they usually cost more. Not sure if those factors may be driving the train. Also wonder if the plating industry has a say--it is a nasty environment?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="walldaja"]... Also wonder if the plating industry has a say--it is a nasty environment?[/quote]
The chemistries used for plating are quite hazardous. Silver is usually plated from a cyanide cmplex. Chrome is plated from a hexavalent salt. Both require extremely expensive treatment of effluent.
That's not to say lacquer is much better. The solvents used with most lacquers are air pollutants and must be removed from the drying air.
I've never seen a material that can be applied and cured (UV or bake) from 100% solids and be thin enough not to dampen the sound.
The chemistries used for plating are quite hazardous. Silver is usually plated from a cyanide cmplex. Chrome is plated from a hexavalent salt. Both require extremely expensive treatment of effluent.
That's not to say lacquer is much better. The solvents used with most lacquers are air pollutants and must be removed from the drying air.
I've never seen a material that can be applied and cured (UV or bake) from 100% solids and be thin enough not to dampen the sound.
- Jnoxon
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
There is a good reason to plate instruments beyond just the look. The thicker the metal the darker the sound. You can't put gold directly on brass so they must be silver plated first because gold won't adhere to brass. To Gold plate a trombone takes right at 1 ounce of gold. So you can figure the cost by the price of gold today. It gets expensive very quickly to gold plate a horn.
Let me give an example: I have a couple of Williams mode4 horns. One I got from Billy Byers and it had been buffed and lacquered 3 times that I know of. William horns have a beautiful dark sound. But the one model 4 was sounding pretty bright because it was so thin from previous attempts to re-lacquer the horn. This type of plating is done fairly often with saxophones to bring the metal back to its original thickness. So I had this 4 silver plated by Kanstul and they did a beautiful job. The horn is sounding more like a Williams should now because of the plating making it slightly thicker. The price for that was $750. That was the prep work and buffing etc, the horn was in excellent condition other than the buffing it endured in the past. To add gold over the silver at todays price of gold ($1246.50) would be close to more than the horn is worth! That would bring the price to just under $2000.
So plating is useful in some cases, it goes beyond just the cosmetics or look of the horn. But it is cost prohibitive to gold plate. When this model 4 was made in the early to mis 1960's gold was around $125 and ounce. So the cost is the biggest factor seen in todays market for plating instruments. Silver in 1971 was around $8 an ounce. One ounce of each to do a trombone it would have cost about $133 to silver then gold plate a bone, now its right at $2000!
Let me give an example: I have a couple of Williams mode4 horns. One I got from Billy Byers and it had been buffed and lacquered 3 times that I know of. William horns have a beautiful dark sound. But the one model 4 was sounding pretty bright because it was so thin from previous attempts to re-lacquer the horn. This type of plating is done fairly often with saxophones to bring the metal back to its original thickness. So I had this 4 silver plated by Kanstul and they did a beautiful job. The horn is sounding more like a Williams should now because of the plating making it slightly thicker. The price for that was $750. That was the prep work and buffing etc, the horn was in excellent condition other than the buffing it endured in the past. To add gold over the silver at todays price of gold ($1246.50) would be close to more than the horn is worth! That would bring the price to just under $2000.
So plating is useful in some cases, it goes beyond just the cosmetics or look of the horn. But it is cost prohibitive to gold plate. When this model 4 was made in the early to mis 1960's gold was around $125 and ounce. So the cost is the biggest factor seen in todays market for plating instruments. Silver in 1971 was around $8 an ounce. One ounce of each to do a trombone it would have cost about $133 to silver then gold plate a bone, now its right at $2000!
- jtbandmusic
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Dec 12, 2018
Trumpet players are arrogant and obnoxious, so of course they use silver horns.
Silver trombones look tacky. Get one if you want.
Bigger horns are silver for a good, practical reason: silver horns last longer. Really.
Drop a mellophone and roll out the bell. On a brass-color horn, you'll get two or three brown stripes when the the lacquer cracks, once when the dent was made and another when it was fixed. Silver? A good job leaves it looking almost new.
On serious repairs, torch work often leaves burn marks and big spots with no lacquer at all. Silver doesn't scorch and the burn marks usually up totally.
Band Directors like silver horns.
JTbandmusic
Trombone
Composer & Arrange - listen to my music on JWPepper
Silver trombones look tacky. Get one if you want.
Bigger horns are silver for a good, practical reason: silver horns last longer. Really.
Drop a mellophone and roll out the bell. On a brass-color horn, you'll get two or three brown stripes when the the lacquer cracks, once when the dent was made and another when it was fixed. Silver? A good job leaves it looking almost new.
On serious repairs, torch work often leaves burn marks and big spots with no lacquer at all. Silver doesn't scorch and the burn marks usually up totally.
Band Directors like silver horns.
JTbandmusic
Trombone
Composer & Arrange - listen to my music on JWPepper
- Driswood
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
In 1986 I bought a Bach 16M Custom. I ordered a 16M with a gold brass bell. Bach sent that horn by mistake.
It was finished like Bill’S horn. Silver plated slide, gold plated bell section. I never had a problem with the looks of the silver slide. Of course, the gold bell was gorgeous!
And it played like a champ! I sold it after 22 years. Stupid move. :weep:
It was finished like Bill’S horn. Silver plated slide, gold plated bell section. I never had a problem with the looks of the silver slide. Of course, the gold bell was gorgeous!
And it played like a champ! I sold it after 22 years. Stupid move. :weep:
- leafylief
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Jan 18, 2021
i've got a silver plated King 3BF.
I love it. It's definitely got a unique sound compared to brass. It's bright, yes, but it also has a smooth quality. It's not as full as a brass or sterling sound.
My favorite part about it is how it looks when it's all pollished. It has a commanding presence in the brass bands.
On that note, tarnished silver will be much more muffled than polished. S
I love it. It's definitely got a unique sound compared to brass. It's bright, yes, but it also has a smooth quality. It's not as full as a brass or sterling sound.
My favorite part about it is how it looks when it's all pollished. It has a commanding presence in the brass bands.
On that note, tarnished silver will be much more muffled than polished. S
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
[quote="bimmerman"]You can still buy silver plated horns-- Bach, among others, offer this. The lead player in the big band I play with has one.
Trombones also have a variety of sterling silver bell options (King, Conn, others) and elemental silver (Bach) that seem as common as silver plate itself. Why silver plate when you can get something cooler?
Another thing to think about is that a large fraction of slides are nickel silver in color, so why bother silver plating that if you're just going for aesthetic reasons?[/quote]
I think the bach sp is special order only
Trombones also have a variety of sterling silver bell options (King, Conn, others) and elemental silver (Bach) that seem as common as silver plate itself. Why silver plate when you can get something cooler?
Another thing to think about is that a large fraction of slides are nickel silver in color, so why bother silver plating that if you're just going for aesthetic reasons?[/quote]
I think the bach sp is special order only
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
From a repairman's perspective... I hate silverplate! I can't tell you how many times a customer would come in with a silver plated instrumet with black tarnish and ask for a flush and clean and off handedly say "polish it too"! And they expected it to look brand new. They had no idea how much work that added, and how dangerous it was to their horn, and me! I was good at it. Made a lot of money doing it. But any time you polish a horn on a buffing lathe it's scary. I'd hand rag it with Silvo then apply Hagerty's mixed with denatured alcohol, and polish with an unstitched chamois wheel with green rouge. Hated it!
- jbeatenbough
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Dec 13, 2019
BaritoneJack did you see the trombone section in the Marine band today? That should make you happy for a while - I know it did me, for I must admit, I do love a beautiful silver bell on a trombone...
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="jbeatenbough"]BaritoneJack did you see the trombone section in the Marine band today? That should make you happy for a while - I know it did me, for I must admit, I do love a beautiful silver bell on a trombone...[/quote]
Yes, those silver bells looked great! :good:
Yes, those silver bells looked great! :good:
- BrassedOn
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Aug 23, 2018
LTTP;
But interesting historical question. Why?
1) Form follows function: Unfinished/raw brass versus finished? I think the choice is easy due to wear of raw brass, overall. Even though there is something about a raw brass bell that some people like.
And at a time, lacquer could not compete with silver plate for durability and/or response. But can we talk about the SMELL of old silver plate that’s been fermenting in a case in the basement for a decade? Uggh!
2) Fashion and aesthetics of the time, and setting. In the setting of high school band in the late 1980early 90s, those silver Bach 42 were a not in common sight. I think due to the marching band influence of Drum Corps and maybe military influences, and some universities follows that trend and had the all silver marching bands. In college in the 80s, people were stripping lacquer off of bells in the tub with boiling water and Brasso. I think orchestral players were trying to get more sizing out of the Boch 42 and 50. Before Edward and Shires we’re getting into the market more. Times change.
3) Sonics: Obviously, the design and quality of manufacturing has a major effect. In addition, I think composition and quality of the material in any component affects the physics of an instrument. Pretty insignificant to gold plate a water key or finger button. But bell material and composition probably has more effect than finish due to mass. Some players can tell the difference between various material of the bottom or tuning crook. So a thin high quality silver plate versus thin high quality lacquer, maybe less effect. And for the audience, maybe none.
Carbon fiber? I first ask, “what’s the problem your thing to solve?” and for some it’s the weight of a bass bone, especially, so form follows function.
Gold washed inside the bell, pure aesthetics?
Sterling silver bell? That’s just science. Same as a Fender P Bass. IMHO. Ha!
But these day, the world is your oyster. And for the individual, any of these factors can overrule the others. Some people might so prefer a certain finish, they’ll ignore fashion or that material or finish’s effect on playing characteristic. Like for the raw brass look but without the wear, they get a raw brass horn and let it oxidize untouched for a few months then add a clear finish to preserve the look. A friend of mine with an old Collichio trumpet had it silver plated them gold plated just to preserve and protect it from his acidic skin wearing to away.
Today, I’m gigging on my early 70s King 3B silversonic, sterling bell, in its fully tarnished-silver glory. Nickel something at the neck and some braces. Raw and lacquered spots on the bows. Clean and lubed inside. 9/10 slide. Hey, That’s an aesthetic as well!
But interesting historical question. Why?
1) Form follows function: Unfinished/raw brass versus finished? I think the choice is easy due to wear of raw brass, overall. Even though there is something about a raw brass bell that some people like.
And at a time, lacquer could not compete with silver plate for durability and/or response. But can we talk about the SMELL of old silver plate that’s been fermenting in a case in the basement for a decade? Uggh!
2) Fashion and aesthetics of the time, and setting. In the setting of high school band in the late 1980early 90s, those silver Bach 42 were a not in common sight. I think due to the marching band influence of Drum Corps and maybe military influences, and some universities follows that trend and had the all silver marching bands. In college in the 80s, people were stripping lacquer off of bells in the tub with boiling water and Brasso. I think orchestral players were trying to get more sizing out of the Boch 42 and 50. Before Edward and Shires we’re getting into the market more. Times change.
3) Sonics: Obviously, the design and quality of manufacturing has a major effect. In addition, I think composition and quality of the material in any component affects the physics of an instrument. Pretty insignificant to gold plate a water key or finger button. But bell material and composition probably has more effect than finish due to mass. Some players can tell the difference between various material of the bottom or tuning crook. So a thin high quality silver plate versus thin high quality lacquer, maybe less effect. And for the audience, maybe none.
Carbon fiber? I first ask, “what’s the problem your thing to solve?” and for some it’s the weight of a bass bone, especially, so form follows function.
Gold washed inside the bell, pure aesthetics?
Sterling silver bell? That’s just science. Same as a Fender P Bass. IMHO. Ha!
But these day, the world is your oyster. And for the individual, any of these factors can overrule the others. Some people might so prefer a certain finish, they’ll ignore fashion or that material or finish’s effect on playing characteristic. Like for the raw brass look but without the wear, they get a raw brass horn and let it oxidize untouched for a few months then add a clear finish to preserve the look. A friend of mine with an old Collichio trumpet had it silver plated them gold plated just to preserve and protect it from his acidic skin wearing to away.
Today, I’m gigging on my early 70s King 3B silversonic, sterling bell, in its fully tarnished-silver glory. Nickel something at the neck and some braces. Raw and lacquered spots on the bows. Clean and lubed inside. 9/10 slide. Hey, That’s an aesthetic as well!
- u_2genbone
- Posts: 3
- Joined: May 18, 2021
Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="2genbone"]Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?[/quote]
Probably not
Probably not
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
The Silver trombones in the WDR Big Band are Rath Nickel silver, not plated :clever:
Maybe a more poignant question would be..... Why do virtually all brass bands now use large bore Bb/F instruments when not soooo long ago a King 3B size was the norm?
I always think the bones in a brass band sound much better playing smaller equipment! :idk:
Maybe a more poignant question would be..... Why do virtually all brass bands now use large bore Bb/F instruments when not soooo long ago a King 3B size was the norm?
I always think the bones in a brass band sound much better playing smaller equipment! :idk:
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
[quote="2genbone"]Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?[/quote]
Yes, I have done that to several instruments for clients.
Yes, I have done that to several instruments for clients.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="2genbone"]Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?[/quote]
There was an old thread from Sam Burtis where he went through his experiences with a horn or two that he liked, stripped the lacquer, liked a little better; silver plated, hated it; gold plated, got back to a good place.
I know a handful of cases where people have stripped silver plating… mostly for restoration work and just left the horns raw or lacquered.
Cheers,
Andy
There was an old thread from Sam Burtis where he went through his experiences with a horn or two that he liked, stripped the lacquer, liked a little better; silver plated, hated it; gold plated, got back to a good place.
I know a handful of cases where people have stripped silver plating… mostly for restoration work and just left the horns raw or lacquered.
Cheers,
Andy
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Fidbone"]
I always think the bones in a brass band sound much better playing smaller equipment! :idk:[/quote]
I've heard some wind ensemble sections that sound a little darker than I like, and the assumption is that large bore horns cause that.
I'm no longer that sure. It may be the way they play now.
I always think the bones in a brass band sound much better playing smaller equipment! :idk:[/quote]
I've heard some wind ensemble sections that sound a little darker than I like, and the assumption is that large bore horns cause that.
I'm no longer that sure. It may be the way they play now.
- IanBassBone
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Jan 14, 2024
[quote="greenbean"]Let's face it: Silver trombones look goofy! :biggrin:[/quote]
Nu Huh
Nu Huh
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
[quote="Matt K"]Not sure why that is but a piccolo or a trumpet looks quite nice, elegant even, in silver. Again, that's 200% subjective and probaly isn't universal but, there it is![/quote]
I agree silver trumpets look nice, mine is. But I do need to keep after it with the silver cloth to keep it looking good. My 1930s Conn 20J tuba is also silver…more like a mottled silver ever since I got it, 30 plus years untouched by previous owner, polished up a small,area, shined up but not as bright and shiny my trumpet, and it’s low on my priority list and even lower on my wife’s!
My euph, trombone, are French horn are not silver, and I wouldn’t want them to be.
I agree silver trumpets look nice, mine is. But I do need to keep after it with the silver cloth to keep it looking good. My 1930s Conn 20J tuba is also silver…more like a mottled silver ever since I got it, 30 plus years untouched by previous owner, polished up a small,area, shined up but not as bright and shiny my trumpet, and it’s low on my priority list and even lower on my wife’s!
My euph, trombone, are French horn are not silver, and I wouldn’t want them to be.
- walldaja
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Jul 11, 2018
When I played in Salvation Army bands in the 60s all horns were required to be silver--hence I got a silver Besson (yeah, and they were all made by Boosey & Hawkes, Besson, or badged Salvation Army). All SA vehicles were also required to be black and either Ford or Chevy--no red Oldsmobiles.
- DCIsky
- Posts: 338
- Joined: May 09, 2020
From the perspective of a younger classical musician, currently back in collegiate study:
1) High-end trombones are expensive (even used ones), and silver-plate is usually a higher cost.
2) In the era of customized or modular horns, silver-plate is yet another component factor to weed through when putting a setup together. It doesn't help that very few prominent orchestral trombonists play on silver-esque components or instruments (the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example), so it's not a risk most people are inclined to take.
3) Because of its rarity in classical settings, silver-plate is usually a "loud" visual statement when everyone else is playing brass or lacquered horns. That attention may be unwanted, especially if you're really just aiming to be judged on your playing alone.
1) High-end trombones are expensive (even used ones), and silver-plate is usually a higher cost.
2) In the era of customized or modular horns, silver-plate is yet another component factor to weed through when putting a setup together. It doesn't help that very few prominent orchestral trombonists play on silver-esque components or instruments (the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example), so it's not a risk most people are inclined to take.
3) Because of its rarity in classical settings, silver-plate is usually a "loud" visual statement when everyone else is playing brass or lacquered horns. That attention may be unwanted, especially if you're really just aiming to be judged on your playing alone.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="DCIsky"]
(the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example)
[/quote]
And also no longer the case. All red Conn bells these days!
(the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example)
[/quote]
And also no longer the case. All red Conn bells these days!
- NotSkilledHere
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Aug 07, 2024
i think we need to factor in that silver and gold plate was significantly and proportionally cheaper after inflation to do back in the day than it is today.
- LR109
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mar 17, 2024
People have a perception that silver instruments are brighter than non silver but I don't know if, in the UK at least, this is due to most people who use silver instruments playing in brass bands that play 'on the bright side' anyway. Then people listen with their eyes and all that.
My understanding was silver was denser than brass which should make a less bright sound?
My understanding was silver was denser than brass which should make a less bright sound?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="LR109"]...
My understanding was silver was denser than brass which should make a less bright sound?[/quote]
The real issue is that a silver plating is much thinner than a lacquer coat. A silver plated instrument sounds more like an unlacquered one; and unlacquered instruments are brighter than when they had lacquer.
My understanding was silver was denser than brass which should make a less bright sound?[/quote]
The real issue is that a silver plating is much thinner than a lacquer coat. A silver plated instrument sounds more like an unlacquered one; and unlacquered instruments are brighter than when they had lacquer.
- mwpfoot
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I still think about a silver straight 4b I played in the Best used room once. Played beautifully, in the used room at least. Couldn't afford it back then.
Bought a "normal" one later, and we've been together many years - but I still think about that silver one.
:pant:
Bought a "normal" one later, and we've been together many years - but I still think about that silver one.
:pant:
- CapitalBass
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Dec 27, 2024
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="DCIsky" post_id="253990" time="1727307178" user_id="9289">
(the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example)
[/quote]
And also no longer the case. All red Conn bells these days!
</QUOTE>
Nice!
(the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example)
[/quote]
And also no longer the case. All red Conn bells these days!
</QUOTE>
Nice!
- cow
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Dec 08, 2023
I love my silver plated BACH 16M.
Does it take a lot of time and effort to maintain? That is a lie.
Silver plated products keep durability by oxide film on the surface.
So, polishing and shining them up is bad for durable.
My instrument is 40 years old and the silver plate has not been damaged at all.
The bell is cloudy, but you can always polish it to its best shine.
But I seldom do that because it sacrifices durability.
I have newer BACH lacquer instruments and older CONN lacquer instruments, but they have lacquer peeling here and there and my hands smell bad.
As for the sound, Compared to the difference in manufacturer, the difference in coating has a negligible effect on the sound.
The difference between 16M and 4H is very large, but I can hardly tell the difference between 16M lacquer and silver plate.
Does it take a lot of time and effort to maintain? That is a lie.
Silver plated products keep durability by oxide film on the surface.
So, polishing and shining them up is bad for durable.
My instrument is 40 years old and the silver plate has not been damaged at all.
The bell is cloudy, but you can always polish it to its best shine.
But I seldom do that because it sacrifices durability.
I have newer BACH lacquer instruments and older CONN lacquer instruments, but they have lacquer peeling here and there and my hands smell bad.
As for the sound, Compared to the difference in manufacturer, the difference in coating has a negligible effect on the sound.
The difference between 16M and 4H is very large, but I can hardly tell the difference between 16M lacquer and silver plate.