I miss the Holton Bass Mods threads!

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-07-30 10:17 p.m.

Where are they? I have a Holton 181 that I am slowly building up but I miss reading the threads full of info on these wonderful instruments. Is it lost forever? Or is it possible to recreate it here on TC?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-07-30 11:02 p.m.

If they aren't in the TTF Archives, Matt's 'bot didn't carry them over. Try the Wayback Machine for old TTF posts.

If it was from the period between founding and the reorganization of this site, it's gone forever. Sorry.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2018-07-31 12:05 a.m.

True. But there's no reason to not start the thread over.

PhilipEdCarlson · by **PhilipEdCarlson** » 2018-08-02 8:15 a.m.

What do you want to do to yours? When you say building it up, is it complete, and you're just making it better, or do you have a couple parts and want to complete it? (I'm just curious because I've got one. Wondering what modifications people (like you) would want.)

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-08-02 10:30 a.m.

I have a bone stock TR-180, Glanz and all. Love the sound, rarely use the second valve because of the clunky ergonomics of the bar. I would love to see mods converting the Glanz bar to independent triggers. Heck, has anybody converted a TR-180 to independent valves?

Backbone · 2018-08-02 10:56 a.m.

[quote="PhilipEdCarlson"]What do you want to do to yours? When you say building it up, is it complete, and you're just making it better, or do you have a couple parts and want to complete it? (I'm just curious because I've got one. Wondering what modifications people (like you) would want.)[/quote]

Mine is complete. But the leadpipe was bad. Had it pulled and a Kanstul "C" pipe took it's place. Much better player now. I still want to play around with the pipe and I know there was a list of pipes that work well with the 181. I have heard of bell stay work that will improve the response and feel of the horn as well. There are also bell changes that are claimed to improve the horn greatly. Again, this info was in the old TTF Holton Bass mod threads.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-08-02 10:58 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]I have a bone stock TR-180, Glanz and all. Love the sound, rarely use the second valve because of the clunky ergonomics of the bar. I would love to see mods converting the Glanz bar to independent triggers. Heck, has anybody converted a TR-180 to independent valves?[/quote]

Right! I think that the old threads not only had pictures and details of converting the Glanz bar to independent triggers, but also pictures and details of 180s converted to independent valves.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2018-08-02 12:31 p.m.

I know someone with a very nice example of the TR181 - and the mod he has on his is a Greenhoe Thumb Brace. Those are cool.

chrisniblett · by **chrisniblett** » 2018-08-04 5:32 a.m.

I have a Tr180 the Larry Minick split the triggers and rebuilt the wrap on it, iI've since have the lead pipe pulled to take shires thread pipes, it is fabulous, will post some pics at some point.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-04 7:49 a.m.

Heres a very custom 181 for you. Custom wraps, custom linkage, shires slide. Top horn obviously.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-08-05 1:08 a.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]Heres a very custom 181 for you. Custom wraps, custom linkage, shires slide. Top horn obviously.[/quote]

Nice work on the wraps. I am looking to have some of the bracing removed from my traditional wrap but am not sure which can be removed and which must stay.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-05 3:07 a.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="64771" time="1533383358" user_id="3393">
Heres a very custom 181 for you. Custom wraps, custom linkage, shires slide. Top horn obviously.[/quote]

Nice work on the wraps. I am looking to have some of the bracing removed from my traditional wrap but am not sure which can be removed and which must stay.
</QUOTE>

Thanks, cant take credit, this was all done before i started working on my horns myself. The 181s are definitely overbraced, but if it were me, id take them all off and start from scratch.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-08-05 3:54 a.m.

Backbone, that's a question for a good tech like John Sandhagen or Eric Edwards who has debraced a TR181 before. Braces are weird... take the wrong one off and your horn is nothing more then a trashcan with a slide. Take the right ones off and your horn with play significantly better!

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-05 7:07 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]Backbone, that's a question for a good tech like John Sandhagen or Eric Edwards who has debraced a TR181 before. Braces are weird... take the wrong one off and your horn is nothing more then a trashcan with a slide. Take the right ones off and your horn with play significantly better![/quote]

Thats really just not true. Its very easy to take them off and put some back if you are accustomed to working on horns. Taking off braces wont make anything sound worse, quite the opposite actually. Ive played horns with no bracing at all, they sound fantastic (bottom horn in the photo i posted has only one brace). If you just mess around with a "fake brace" and move it around and try the horn, you'll find where to put them (your looking for spots on the tubing where it doesnt resonate, called a node). Someone feel free to correct me, but places with ferrules or tuning slides are less sensitive due to the double wall of tubing. If you nail it, adding the brace wont change the sound at all.

Gatt · by **Gatt** » 2018-08-05 9:56 a.m.

QUOTE; 'If you nail it, adding the brace won't change the sound at all'.

Wouldn't it be better to solder it? :idk:

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-05 1:34 p.m.

[quote="Gatt"]QUOTE; 'If you nail it, adding the brace won't change the sound at all'.

Wouldn't it be better to solder it? :idk:[/quote]

Lol!

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-08-05 2:51 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="mrdeacon" post_id="64828" time="1533455674" user_id="3239">
Backbone, that's a question for a good tech like John Sandhagen or Eric Edwards who has debraced a TR181 before. Braces are weird... take the wrong one off and your horn is nothing more then a trashcan with a slide. Take the right ones off and your horn with play significantly better![/quote]

Thats really just not true. Its very easy to take them off and put some back if you are accustomed to working on horns. Taking off braces wont make anything sound worse, quite the opposite actually. Ive played horns with no bracing at all, they sound fantastic (bottom horn in the photo i posted has only one brace). If you just mess around with a "fake brace" and move it around and try the horn, you'll find where to put them (your looking for spots on the tubing where it doesnt resonate, called a node). Someone feel free to correct me, but places with ferrules or tuning slides are less sensitive due to the double wall of tubing. If you nail it, adding the brace wont change the sound at all.
</QUOTE>
I could have worded things better in my post... but note that I never did say the word "sound".

My badly worded post was referring to the blow and response of the horn.

My tech also likes to use cork for fake braces. When he rebraced my TR180 he did the same thing and had me move the cork around and find out where I would like the braces put.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-05 3:17 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="64831" time="1533467268" user_id="3393">

Thats really just not true. Its very easy to take them off and put some back if you are accustomed to working on horns. Taking off braces wont make anything sound worse, quite the opposite actually. Ive played horns with no bracing at all, they sound fantastic (bottom horn in the photo i posted has only one brace). If you just mess around with a "fake brace" and move it around and try the horn, you'll find where to put them (your looking for spots on the tubing where it doesnt resonate, called a node). Someone feel free to correct me, but places with ferrules or tuning slides are less sensitive due to the double wall of tubing. If you nail it, adding the brace wont change the sound at all.[/quote]
I could have worded things better in my post... but note that I never did say the word "sound".

My badly worded post was referring to the blow and response of the horn.

My tech also likes to use cork for fake braces. When he rebraced my TR180 he did the same thing and had me move the cork around and find out where I would like the braces put.
</QUOTE>

Cork will certainly work. Fwiw, theres a lot of horns out theres with worse bracing. I catabolized a 50b2 for my double rotor Db bass, and the amount of bracing on the thing was utterly insane.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-08-05 5:06 p.m.

"catabolized"? Interesting word. I think you meant cannibalized.

Sid · by **Sid** » 2018-08-05 5:14 p.m.

I bought a TR180 at the beginning of the year that came with "modifications" - string linkage and side-by-side thumb paddles instead of the Glantz bar. The horn had been sitting in a closet for a very long time and needed some work to get it back in order. The work done so far:

- Converted string linkage on valves to miniball

- Had the bell cut to become a screwbell

- Bought a MB screwbell case for bass trombone for easier travel

While there are still a few things I would like to have done (thumb rest, split triggers), the one thing I am looking at later in the year is having the valve tubing re-done because it is overly complicated (three tuning slides for F and bE tuning). Would prefer to simplify it to F/Eb or F/D tuning. Does anyone have any experience converting a horn valve tubing in the last several years?

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-05 5:27 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]"catabolized"? Interesting word. I think you meant cannibalized.[/quote]

Technically thats inaccurate, since im not a trombone lol.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-08-05 6:49 p.m.

[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="64864" time="1533503209" user_id="53">
"catabolized"? Interesting word. I think you meant cannibalized.[/quote]

Technically thats inaccurate, since im not a trombone lol.
</QUOTE>

When we use parts from an old machine to make a new one we usually refer to it as cannibalizing the old one. This is exactly what you did.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-05 7:04 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Jgittleson" post_id="64869" time="1533504469" user_id="3393">

Technically thats inaccurate, since im not a trombone lol.[/quote]

When we use parts from an old machine to make a new one we usually refer to it as cannibalizing the old one. This is exactly what you did.
</QUOTE>

Im actually just analyzing the word, or more so its origins. Technically the act of dismantling a horn, or anything else is catabolic, hence my term.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-08-05 7:47 p.m.

Ah, i stand corrected. After reading the dictionary i get why its considered cannabolic vs catabolic.

Sorry for my minor disagreement with humanity. Proceed!

chrisniblett · by **chrisniblett** » 2018-08-13 9:36 a.m.

A few pics

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-08-13 9:08 p.m.

Nice 180! Great shot of the split triggers.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-08-15 3:48 p.m.

I'm starting to build up a small bass. I think maybe the ultimate small bass would be a Holton 159 with a second valve, probably a dependent so you don't mess with the base horn too much. The goal is a 9" bell, 547/562 slide, and two valves, and more importantly, something that's light enough to play as a tenor, but has a big enough sound to play notes below the staff without sounding like a rip saw.

But the parts that are available to me right now are from a 680. The valve is pretty much toasted, so I'm going to replace the whole valve and wrap with a dependent double I picked up cheap.

I think the 680 comes with a 547 slide, and I'd like to upgrade that somewhat. I've got two possible solutions in mind:

1) replace the bottom tubes of the 680 slide with 562 tubes, if that's possible OR,

2) just put a Conn dual bore 547/562 slide on, and probably replace the tenon.

Does anyone have experience with the 680? It's got specs like a 150 (with a yellow bell), but with a flat wrap, and its considered a student model. I've loved all the big Holton tenors I've played (156, 159, 150), and I'm just hoping this 680 is somewhere in that ball park.

Also, any comments on the possible changes (replacing a set of slide tubes vs replacing the slide tenon)?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-08-15 6:13 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Also, any comments on the possible changes (replacing a set of slide tubes vs replacing the slide tenon)?[/quote]

Are you committed to using Holton tenor parts?

It's been a while, but my recollection of John Sandhagen's version of a small bass was fitting a King Symphony (1480) bell and tuning slide to a Bach 50. Apparently the small leg of the 1480 tuning slide is the same OD as (or at least really close to) the small leg on the 50B tuning slide (this is because the 1480 has a reverse tuning slide). I think John used the regular single-bore .562" slide, but there's not reason you couldn't put together a dual-bore .547"/.562" slide. Bach components are easier to come by than Holton, and the Bach 50 valve set would probably give you a better trigger register.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-08-15 6:46 p.m.

JohnL, I'm not committed to Holton, but

thats what I'm finding cheap right now. I was also looking at 5bs, but the Holton 159 solved everything except the double plug. The 50b2 would be a great solution especially if I could find one with a trashed bell for say $500-700. Swapping the bell would be easy, and swapping top slides is easier than bottom slides.

There's also a Wessex Super Tenor that is supposed to play like a Holton that would only need a plug in valve.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-08-16 1:13 a.m.

I'm not sure I'd consider a 159 to be in the small bass range... I had a 256 (aka the screw bell version of the 159) and even though it had the dual bore slide it was still definitely a tenor. It played low well but I never would have used it as a small bass.

5Bs always seems more bassish to me... so maybe something leaning more towards a bass might be a better idea.

It might also be worth considering something like an Olds Roberts bass or a Holton TR183 and building a dual bore slide for that. Maybe a 72H or 71H? You can get those for dirt cheap. Aren't the old school LA Olds basses 9" bells with dual bore slides? Maybe a 40s 70H with a dual bore slide?

Just some thoughts!

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-08-16 4:13 a.m.

To me the 159 is a powerful instrument in all ranges. I had one and foolishly sold it, still not sure why. The wrap is more conducive to adding a second valve than the traditional 88h style closed wrap.

The Olds P24g would be perfect. I also owned one of those, but sold it because the section leader in a band I played with wanted that big bass sound instead of a more trombone bass sound. Ideally, the P24g would do just fine. But they don't grow on trees. There have been some other Olds basses on ebay recently but no P24g s. The S23 has a bigger bell and smaller valves. Also the one on the bay has been modified.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-08-16 2:52 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]The S23 has a bigger bell and smaller valves. Also the one on the bay has been modified.[/quote]
There's actually three S-23's on eBay right now. This one looks to be the nicest of the bunch:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/292680945139

If I were going to build a "super tenor" out of Olds parts, I'd actually start with an S-20 (9" bell) and graft a modern double valve set onto it. Nothing fancy like Thayers or Hagmanns - just some nice modern rotors with an open wrap. Unfortunately, you'd still be faced with the oddball receiver. A different leadpipe would cure the receiver problem, but then you have to find a leadpipe that fits a .554" upper tube.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2018-08-16 3:28 p.m.

I am not convinced of the usefulness of bass-like tenors. If you want to play down low, just use a bass. It does everything better. If you really want a lightweight bass, the Holtons are lightweight.

But if you really insist on a project... how about building a plug-in valve for a TR183?... TR183 are about as light and comfy as a single bass gets! A way better horn with better resale value than a double plug tenor by far!\.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-08-16 3:37 p.m.

JohnL, yes, the S20 looks perfect. Now to find one....

actually, I just found a p24g on craigslist... 9.5" bell, but that's ok, I guess

Greenbean, I've got a real bass, and it's just too much for me, and too "slide euphonium-ish". Yeah, a 183 would also be nice. I'm not really worried about resale on this. This would be a horn for all the not-quite-bass playing I do, where I'm good as long as I've got a solid low C/B. I don't need a luxurious pedal F.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2018-08-16 3:59 p.m.

[quote="chrisniblett"]A few pics[/quote]

Is that my old horn? Mine was identical.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-08-16 4:29 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]JohnL, yes, the S20 looks perfect. Now to find one....

actually, I just found a p24g on craigslist... 9.5" bell, but that's ok, I guess

Greenbean, I've got a real bass, and it's just too much for me, and too "slide euphonium-ish". Yeah, a 183 would also be nice. I'm not really worried about resale on this. This would be a horn for all the not-quite-bass playing I do, where I'm good as long as I've got a solid low C/B. I don't need a luxurious pedal F.[/quote]
Don't you have a Kanstul 1662i? That's one of the lightest and smallest modern basses on the market. Single bore slide... very lightweight... no huge tapers...

What kind of mouthpiece are you using? If you're playing something big in the Schilke 60 or 59 range it might be worth it to check out something in the 1 1/2G size.

I recently made the switch from a Schilke 60 sized piece to a 1 1/2G sized piece and I couldn't be happier.

If you think the Kanstul 1662i is too "slide euphonium" then a single valved Holton might not be the best idea. They play pretty big for their size.

Is your beef with the 9 1/2" bell?

I still think a Conn 7XH series (with the tight bell flare) or Olds single with 9" bell would fit the bill. Especially since some of the 70H series and Olds George Roberts singles came stock with .547/.562 slides.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-08-16 5:14 p.m.

mrdeacon,

Yes, I've got the 1662i. I've played it side by side with a Holton 159, Conn 70h, an Olds P24g, and a few others. I really like the trombony sound of the P24g. I use a DE EUPH J8 mouthpiece, which gives a decent sound, but the Kanstul just seems awkward when compared to tenors.

I use the Kanstul in a band where everybody has large horns, but I'm also in a tbone quartet where everybody uses 525 bores (including me when I'm not on bass), which is where the smaller horn will come into play.

Yeah, I like the P24g with the 9" bell. I just want to moderate the bell size and the bore. Half way between bass and tenor. That's kind of the feel/sound I'm looking for, so I'm just going with those specs. All the nickel silver on the P24g really helps brighten it up, as well. The Holton 159 has the dual bore slide. Some 1930s 70hs, and the Olds S20. Of those, only the Olds S20 has TIS, which I really like. So an Olds S20 with a second valve would be great, but I may just settle for a stock P24g if the one I found falls into my hands.

It's a lot of nitpicking about specs, but it's going to come down to what I can actually find in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, in reasonable condition. You know how that goes.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-08-16 5:32 p.m.

Ahh. That explains some things. I understand more where you're coming from! I'll still let my previous comments stand for anyone in the future who might stumble upon this thread.

A TR159 or similar large tenor could work as the bottom voice in a quartet like that. I'm still not sure it'd be the best choice for your band but it sure could work in the quartet. Honestly even a nice large bore tenor like a Conn 88H or Bach 42B can make for a good bottom voice in that instrumentation. Large bore tenors can really honk in the register when you need them to!

Yeah if you're not used to a full sized bass it could definitely feel cumbersome.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-08-16 8:36 p.m.

I vote for the 183. 9" bell, nice low range but not heavy, and a surprisingly good upper range. Plug in valve and a 1 1/2G, 2G, or 3G mouthpiece would be great!. It really is a lighter bass.

jthomas105 · by **jthomas105** » 2018-08-21 1:27 p.m.

I have a 2nd TR181 being shipped that I picked up on ebay last Friday that had an unbelievable "buy it now" price. The one I have now is not in the best shape but works and my son will be playing it as he goes through high school.

When I get my "new" one I am interested in having the lead pipe pulled. For those that have done this what do you recommend? Brassark MV50 (what metal), MK Drawing Bach 50 or George Roberts?

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-08-21 3:11 p.m.

You can't go wrong with Brad's pipes. My personal favorite in my Holtons was the TR185 Schatz/Minick pipe.

Both the MV50B pipe and NY50B pipe also work well. The MV being a tighter more focused pipe, but not too tight, and the NY being a much more open pipe, but not too open. A friend has one of Brad's NY50B pipes in his late TR180 and the horn is killer with it.

You'd also be surprised at how well a stock Elkhart 50B pipe works in Holtons. Shires #1 and #2 pipes also work pretty well too.

Personally I'd stick with yellow brass for the pipe material. Holtons are already pretty warm and dark. In my experience if I used a gold brass or copper pipe in certain horns it made them too dark and too warm. I never have tried nickel or sterling pipe in a Holton though!

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-09-03 10:39 p.m.

One of the best mods I did was have the leadpipe pulled. I put in a Kanstul copy of a Minick "C". I would love to try others out and the above suggestions are what I will go by.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-09-03 10:41 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="chrisniblett" post_id="65433" time="1534167386" user_id="3095">
A few pics[/quote]

Is that my old horn? Mine was identical.
</QUOTE>

Yah know, they do look similar!

WeekendWailer · by **WeekendWailer** » 2018-09-24 10:04 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]One of the best mods I did was have the leadpipe pulled. I put in a Kanstul copy of a Minick "C". I would love to try others out and the above suggestions are what I will go by.[/quote]

Did you also change the triggers? The F trigger looks lower than on mine and is missing a brace. Your Gb also looks a bit longer.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-09-25 6:48 p.m.

F trigger is the same as when I got it so not sure. Gb is lengthened for comfort. It is adjustable.

WeekendWailer · by **WeekendWailer** » 2018-09-25 10:55 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]F trigger is the same as when I got it so not sure. Gb is lengthened for comfort. It is adjustable.[/quote]

I guess mine has the same trigger arm but on yours, they bent it to get it out of the way of your thumb. I use a brace on mine too because it is a heavy horn.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2018-09-26 1:57 a.m.

Ugh that design makes me frustrated. Why didn't they just use the same design they already had for the late Leblanc Holton TR185s? (There were multiple trigger configurations for the TR185 which is why I specified late)

By putting the trigger they way they did on your guy's TR181s they solved a problem that didn't need to be solved! haha

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2018-09-27 11:01 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]Ugh that design makes me frustrated. Why didn't they just use the same design they already had for the late Leblanc Holton TR185s? (There were multiple trigger configurations for the TR185 which is why I specified late)

By putting the trigger they way they did on your guy's TR181s they solved a problem that didn't need to be solved! haha[/quote]

I'd love to see a pic!

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2019-11-05 9:30 p.m.

Just confirming that removing some of the braces has made my 181 play much better. Low C and B are much easier.

flotrb · by **flotrb** » 2019-11-17 9:08 p.m.

I have an 1962 original Holton 169 Bb/F rose brass bass trombone

(serial # 355xxx) that I bought from Dorothy Ziegler (1st trombone St. Louis Symphony) in 1965 and have been playing since then. I pondered adding a second valve, but since the original 2nd valve attachment and noisy linkage were no longer available, I asked my local repairman, Joe Sellmansberger (also great tuba player) for a consultation.

Here is a link to my repairman's web posting:

<http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35346>

which explains the procedure. The modification works fantastically (I especially like the security in knowing that the low B is going to solidly be there).

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-11-18 10:13 a.m.

Has anyone done a rotary valve conversion on any Holton bass trombone? I'm not interested in Hagmann or Thayer valve conversions. I'm specifically interested in the Rotax valve as I play a Rath R9 with dependent Rotax valves.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2019-11-18 11:39 a.m.

Hi Bill - I put an Instrument Innovations valve on my E185, for the main F trigger. Pretty good results, though I do miss a few things about the smaller rotor. You're welcome to try it anytime.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-11-18 12:15 p.m.

Thanks Nick. Yes I know anytime you put a bigger valve on it definitely changes aspects of the instrument. I need to do some research but I'd be curious as how the valve ports on the Instrument Innovations valves compare to the Rotax and other Rotary valves on the market. Part of the smaller valve design is key to the sound and response of the instrument.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-11-18 9:10 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Thanks Nick. Yes I know anytime you put a bigger valve on it definitely changes aspects of the instrument. I need to do some research but I'd be curious as how the valve ports on the Instrument Innovations valves compare to the Rotax and other Rotary valves on the market. Part of the smaller valve design is key to the sound and response of the instrument.[/quote]
I would contact Instrument Innovations with questions about the rotor ports. They're knowledgeable and can put you in the right direction. I also know Eric Edwards and John Sandhagen have done a number of conversions with the Olsen rotors.

I had my Minick converted about a year back. I really like them!

They are "large" rotors but they aren't wide sounding like Hagmanns or Trubores. Nice and rotor like. I'm not sure I'd spring for the conversion if your valve is in good shape. Those Holton rotors blow nice!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-11-19 8:32 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="98166" time="1574097335" user_id="7573">
Thanks Nick. Yes I know anytime you put a bigger valve on it definitely changes aspects of the instrument. I need to do some research but I'd be curious as how the valve ports on the Instrument Innovations valves compare to the Rotax and other Rotary valves on the market. Part of the smaller valve design is key to the sound and response of the instrument.[/quote]
I would contact Instrument Innovations with questions about the rotor ports. They're knowledgeable and can put you in the right direction. I also know Eric Edwards and John Sandhagen have done a number of conversions with the Olsen rotors.

I had my Minick converted about a year back. I really like them!

They are "large" rotors but they aren't wide sounding like Hagmanns or Trubores. Nice and rotor like. I'm not sure I'd spring for the conversion if your valve is in good shape. Those Holton rotors blow nice!
</QUOTE>

I will do some research but I'm not sure those particular valves are what I'd need. Everyone is looking for OPEN. I'm very accostumed to the Holton valves and would probably never change them out. However the 180 I use at my show is one of the very early ones with a 9 and 1/2 inch bell-the valves have seen a to of action. I'm having the horn completely taken apart and put back together very soon. Just thinking.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2019-11-27 12:33 p.m.

[quote="flotrb"]I have an 1962 original Holton 169 Bb/F rose brass bass trombone

(serial # 355xxx) that I bought from Dorothy Ziegler (1st trombone St. Louis Symphony) in 1965 and have been playing since then. I pondered adding a second valve, but since the original 2nd valve attachment and noisy linkage were no longer available, I asked my local repairman, Joe Sellmansberger (also great tuba player) for a consultation.

Here is a link to my repairman's web posting:

<http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35346>

which explains the procedure. The modification works fantastically (I especially like the security in knowing that the low B is going to solidly be there).[/quote]

Would love to see some pictures of your conversion. The link does not provide them.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2019-11-27 12:44 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Has anyone done a rotary valve conversion on any Holton bass trombone? I'm not interested in Hagmann or Thayer valve conversions. I'm specifically interested in the Rotax valve as I play a Rath R9 with dependent Rotax valves.[/quote]

I did some research and the the closest thing I could find was a tr 181 with a combo Rotax/Meinlschmidt conversion:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/conte ... ent-valves">https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/content/holton-tr181-1980s-rotax-meinlschmidt-custom-independent-valves</LINK_TEXT>

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2019-11-27 2:01 p.m.

Thanks for sharing! Very interesting. I wonder how it plays and I wonder why the 2 different valves??

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2020-02-28 4:25 p.m.

Mods I've added to my 181 since last posting:

Ergo-bone support :good:

Custom porting of valves (DIY!) :amazed:

I'll add de-bracing here because it was DIY!! :biggrin:

Shortened my D slide tubes because it was too flat - DIY!! :good:

Brass ark MV50 leadpipe in bronze :biggrin: :biggrin:

Added a accessory compartment to my DIY modified screwbell case :biggrin:

I am getting braver with this self modifications thing. It's a lot of fun!

FullPedalTrombonist · by **FullPedalTrombonist** » 2020-02-28 7:08 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]Mods I've added to my 181 since last posting:

Ergo-bone support :good:

Custom porting of valves (DIY!) :amazed:

I'll add de-bracing here because it was DIY!! :biggrin:

Shortened my D slide tubes because it was too flat - DIY!! :good:

Brass ark MV50 leadpipe in bronze :biggrin: :biggrin:

Added a accessory compartment to my DIY modified screwbell case :biggrin:

I am getting braver with this self modifications thing. It's a lot of fun![/quote]

This makes me miss my 181. I think it’s such a cool looking horn.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-02 3:38 p.m.

Resurrecting this old thread to show off my modded 180. It's not all that fancy or modern, but dang, I still like its sound better than any other bass I've tried. So dark and velvety rich without getting too heavy.

Split triggers and custom D slide by Gary Dafler of Hauer Music in Dayton Ohio. He also worked some miracles on general restoration for this horn - it belonged to a local high school before it came to me and got absolutely trashed in their marching band.

One entertaining quirk is that in the course of restoration Gary had to replace the ruined slide receiver (the original was completely stripped) and since that's where the model and serial numbers are listed, it's labeled as an early 2000s Holton 281. :lol: Someone is going to be confused one day if this instrument ever passes out of my hands.

<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_20200904_193208.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~IMG_20200904_193208.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_20200904_193229.jpg" index="1">~~[attachment=1]~~IMG_20200904_193229.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-02 7:11 p.m.

Question: is the stock glantz bar nickel plated?

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-02 7:54 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]Question: is the stock glantz bar nickel plated?[/quote]

Chrome plated, like the handslide grip.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-12-03 7:38 a.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]....

One entertaining quirk is that in the course of restoration Gary had to replace the ruined slide receiver (the original was completely stripped) and since that's where the model and serial numbers are listed, it's labeled as an early 2000s Holton 281. :lol: Someone is going to be confused one day if this instrument ever passes out of my hands.

....[/quote]
Hey, we already had a whole thread on a horn like that before. That was an adventure.

Cheers,

Andy

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-03 1:57 p.m.

Oh really? Do you have a link handy?

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-03 7:37 p.m.

I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-03 8:51 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?[/quote]

181 (pre-Elkhart) should be the same slide as 180. Even post consolidation of all Conn-Selmer trombone manufacturing the 181 still has nickel outers and yellow crook. Yellow outer tubes and nickel crook mean it's not the original slide for that horn.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-12-03 11:46 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="132495" time="1607042269" user_id="8680">
I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?[/quote]

181 (pre-Elkhart) should be the same slide as 180. Even post consolidation of all Conn-Selmer trombone manufacturing the 181 still has nickel outers and yellow crook. Yellow outer tubes and nickel crook mean it's not the original slide for that horn.
</QUOTE>
Almost! There was one or two years of early TR181 production where they made them with Yellow slides. I suspect this is one of those instruments. Note there is no Holton medallion in the valve section. Slide looks stock to me.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-04 3:53 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="132517" time="1607046664" user_id="10390">

181 (pre-Elkhart) should be the same slide as 180. Even post consolidation of all Conn-Selmer trombone manufacturing the 181 still has nickel outers and yellow crook. Yellow outer tubes and nickel crook mean it's not the original slide for that horn.[/quote]
Almost! There was one or two years of early TR181 production where they made them with Yellow slides. I suspect this is one of those instruments. Note there is no Holton medallion in the valve section. Slide looks stock to me.
</QUOTE>

This is correct. There was a time when early 181s with those slides were sought after.

Chris

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-04 9:17 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?[/quote]
It's not a "gold" crook. It's yellow brass.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-04 2:34 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="mrdeacon" post_id="132537" time="1607057188" user_id="3239">

Almost! There was one or two years of early TR181 production where they made them with Yellow slides. I suspect this is one of those instruments. Note there is no Holton medallion in the valve section. Slide looks stock to me.[/quote]

This is correct. There was a time when early 181s with those slides were sought after.

Chris
</QUOTE>

Interesting, I didn't know this! Found that 181, looks amazingly pristine.

Does anyone know what the reasoning was for introducing yellow tubes and nickel crook in the early 181, or for switching back to the more distinctively Holton pattern of nickel tubes and yellow crook?

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-04 2:55 p.m.

probably nobody alive now to answer that. I've seen brass outers, but still with a brass bottom bow.. Only ever seen one nickel bottom bow, and I presumed it was Bach....however, the bow guard and water key were Holton....and it's on the end of one of my slides, so I've got time to ponder....

Chris

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-08 6:22 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="132495" time="1607042269" user_id="8680">
I have a 1972 180 slide and it’s nickel sleeves nickel outers and gold crook, there’s a nice 181 up on facebook and it has yellow outers nickel sleeves and nickel crook. I thought the slides were the same, are they different between the 180 and 181?[/quote]
It's not a "gold" crook. It's yellow brass.
</QUOTE>

What material is the valve wrap? They both look good to me, but there’s also a nice patina on my example

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-12-08 7:03 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="132564" time="1607091451" user_id="7573">

It's not a "gold" crook. It's yellow brass.[/quote]

What material is the valve wrap? They both look good to me, but there’s also a nice patina on my example
</QUOTE>
Yellow brass. As far as I know, Holton never used Gold Brass on their valve tubing but with Holton you never truly know lol

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-09 8:30 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="133113" time="1607469737" user_id="8680">

What material is the valve wrap? They both look good to me, but there’s also a nice patina on my example[/quote]
Yellow brass. As far as I know, Holton never used Gold Brass on their valve tubing but with Holton you never truly know lol
</QUOTE>

Mr. Deacon is correct.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-31 2:57 p.m.

The 185 is basically complete!

Split triggers by Benn Hansson, D slide by John Sandhagen. Luckily John had a TR-158 valve section sitting around the shop for the donor .585 valve tubing.

Still need to move the levers a bit, and the spring on the 2nd valve needs a bit of stiffening- it's moving a lot of mass!

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-06-01 12:59 p.m.

Looks cool as heck. Is the second valve still (easily) removable, or are you missing a suitable tuning slide to make it single-valve?

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-06-01 1:16 p.m.

Here's a Holton that I converted for a prominent player in NY. He says it "has become his daily driver"! <EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>

M&W valve section in F and Gb, with original Holton levers slightly modified to suit.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-06-01 1:32 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]Looks cool as heck. Is the second valve still (easily) removable, or are you missing a suitable tuning slide to make it single-valve?[/quote]

The valve and lever can be taken off, but I don't have an F slide. I don't have a use for one!

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2021-06-01 2:03 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]Here's a Holton that I converted for a prominent player in NY. He says it "has become his daily driver"! <EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>

M&W valve section in F and Gb, with original Holton levers slightly modified to suit.[/quote]
That is stunning! Is that a 169? Beautiful!

I might just have to reach out and convert my Minick with you guys...

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-06-01 3:35 p.m.

I might just have to reach out and convert my Minick with you guys...

[/quote]

This started life as a 185, similar to the horn Aidan posted immediately above.

pedrombon · 2021-06-01 5:50 p.m.

Francisco Palacios' (bass trombone player of the "Banda Municipal de Barcelona") Holton TR-183, the 2nd valve was assembled at Sonas S.C. workshop in Seville, Spain.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-06-01 7:00 p.m.

Very similar to what we (M&W) did for Max Seigel a few years ago.

JoeStanko · by **JoeStanko** » 2021-06-02 7:23 a.m.

..everything old is new again. Dave Chamberlain, on the right, bought his plug-in valve from me - it was made by Terry Pierce for a 183 I had. The lower photos are from a Bach - the section allowed for single valve in F, bE, double valve in Eb or D.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-06-03 7:11 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="149673" time="1622567789" user_id="3205">
Here's a Holton that I converted for a prominent player in NY. He says it "has become his daily driver"! <EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>

M&W valve section in F and Gb, with original Holton levers slightly modified to suit.[/quote]
That is stunning! Is that a 169? Beautiful!

I might just have to reach out and convert my Minick with you guys...
</QUOTE>

185!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-06-04 6:49 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]The 185 is basically complete!

Split triggers by Benn Hansson, D slide by John Sandhagen. Luckily John had a TR-158 valve section sitting around the shop for the donor .585 valve tubing.

Still need to move the levers a bit, and the spring on the 2nd valve needs a bit of stiffening- it's moving a lot of mass!

[/quote]
What vintage is this?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-06-04 2:21 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]

What vintage is this?[/quote]

I actually don't know! The new 2nd valve saddle is soldered directly onto the first number of the serial. I did look it up before it was modified and I remember getting 1967 as a result, but I'm not entirely sure since the serials repeat soon after that.

I'm actually not sure of 185 production years, I'm sure someone knows better than I!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-06-05 8:46 a.m.

If it's #57xxx that would be about right I think.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-06-05 1:38 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]If it's #57xxx that would be about right I think.[/quote]

That's that it is. Sweet.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-06-05 1:40 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="150022" time="1622897205" user_id="7573">
If it's #57xxx that would be about right I think.[/quote]

That's that it is. Sweet.
</QUOTE>
I have 2 TR 180s from the 457xxx period with 9 and 1/2 inch flares.

slidefunk · by **slidefunk** » 2021-06-18 11:40 a.m.

Here is my 1974 TR180 that I've had modernized over the last year, bought for the use as a doubler in pit orchestras. A bit of a beater when I first got her, she still had her Glanz bar and original valves, was stuffy in the low register, wouldn't play low C or B and was generally out of tune and unpredictable. However, the horn had promise. She really resonated on a concert A, and the slide was excellent for its age.

I took it to a well known and busy repair shop in NYC. Those who are familiar with the city will know who I'm talking about. New valves and linkage from Instrument Innovations were put on, the original leadpipe was pulled and the lacquer take off the bell. The shop had done exactly what I asked and the work looked great, but I would later find out that a few important faults had been overlooked.

After getting the horn back I found that the leadpipe had begun to disintegrate, so I replaced it with a Shires #2. The new valves were much more predictable and centered but still playing very flat, so much so that even with the tuning slides pushed all the way in, first position low F and D were 25 cents under where they needed to be. In addition, low C and B still had issues and the horn still felt stiff and lacked resonance throughout the range of the instrument. That A still made the bell ring, but the rest of the horn felt like it had a straight jacket on.

Back in my hometown to ride out the pandemic, I was able to spend some time with an old private instructor who recommended Graham Middleton in Salem, OR. Graham turned out to be a great guy and excellent tech. He found and repaired three failures on the horn that had been missed during the first round of work; a broken ferrule on the valve section, a slide lock that didn't lock properly and a freaking hole in the handslide crook! The D valve linkage was modified with an adjustable arm. He then cut 3/4" off of both the F and D tubes and fine tuned the valve bracing, completely removing one of the braces and moving the rest around to loosen up the response.

The result is a horn that is in tune and much, much livelier. The lower register has really come alive and the horn has a ton of character up and down its range. It really feels like a modern horn. I may continue to fiddle a bit with leadpipe and mouthpiece options, but the horn is now a great player.

If you are thinking of getting one of these old Holtons worked on, I highly recommend finding a technician who is very detailed and who is going to play the horn for more than a few notes to get a feel for what it needs. You can tell them what you'd like to have done, but this horn had issues and really needed some fine tuning to get it playing up to its potential. Graham really spent time on the horn and was a great resource, offering a few mouthpiece and pipe options to try out as well.

One last thing I wanted to mention: this slide is surprisingly light. I'd have to weigh it to be sure, but I'm almost positive its lighter than my Shires NLW .525. The combo of the lightweight nickle slide and rose brass bell is a great pairing.

slidefunk · by **slidefunk** » 2021-06-18 11:51 a.m.

More pics:

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-06-18 12:29 p.m.

Some interesting comments from the previous poster.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-06-18 1:20 p.m.

Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-06-18 2:43 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup![/quote]

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-06-18 3:38 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone" post_id="151107" time="1624036815" user_id="62">
Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup![/quote]

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.
</QUOTE>

I've heard mixed reviews too. Notably from one if the best trombone builders in the US who thought they leaked too easily. But I had no problems with the few examples I have played.

slidefunk · by **slidefunk** » 2021-06-19 9:45 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone" post_id="151107" time="1624036815" user_id="62">
Those instrument innovation valves look great in that setup![/quote]

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.
</QUOTE>

They play well on this horn, nicely centered but open enough for the low stuff. My only real complaint so far is that the throw on the D valve is quite long. Makes some legato movements difficult.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-06-19 12:31 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="151113" time="1624041782" user_id="7573">

They DO look great but I've heard mixed reviews, especially when used with Holtons.[/quote]

I've heard mixed reviews too. Notably from one if the best trombone builders in the US who thought they leaked too easily. But I had no problems with the few examples I have played.
</QUOTE>

I just had some installed on my tenor and my bass. See here: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20873

They actually seem quite tight/close tolerance. No problems with compression or leaking so far.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2021-11-18 4:20 p.m.

What valve swaps/replacements have worked well on Holtons?

CarlVicVogel · by **CarlVicVogel** » 2022-01-16 6:54 p.m.

This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.

Thanks

CarlVicVogel

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2022-02-28 4:02 p.m.

[quote="CarlVicVogel"]This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.

Thanks

CarlVicVogel[/quote]

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:

1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )

2) De-bracing

3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves

4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2022-03-01 3:12 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="CarlVicVogel" post_id="168535" time="1642377247" user_id="14626">
This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.

Thanks

CarlVicVogel[/quote]

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:

1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )

2) De-bracing

3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves

4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.
</QUOTE>

Who ported your valves?

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2022-03-01 10:23 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Backbone" post_id="172709" time="1646082125" user_id="3014">

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:

1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )

2) De-bracing

3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves

4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.[/quote]

Who ported your valves?
</QUOTE>

I did it myself.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2022-03-02 8:38 a.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="172776" time="1646165526" user_id="7573">

Who ported your valves?[/quote]

I did it myself.
</QUOTE>

Are you a tech? If not how did you know how to do this?

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2022-03-02 4:16 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Backbone" post_id="172806" time="1646191407" user_id="3014">

I did it myself.[/quote]

Are you a tech? If not how did you know how to do this?
</QUOTE>

No, not a tech. I had an idea of what would be involved. I did it by hand and not a tool that could be dialed in to a specific i.d. Just a little at a time, de-burr, clean, then play test.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2022-03-03 8:08 a.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="172821" time="1646228327" user_id="7573">

Are you a tech? If not how did you know how to do this?[/quote]

No, not a tech. I had an idea of what would be involved. I did it by hand and not a tool that could be dialed in to a specific i.d. Just a little at a time, de-burr, clean, then play test.
</QUOTE>

Bravo!

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2022-03-05 9:18 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Backbone" post_id="172850" time="1646255789" user_id="3014">

No, not a tech. I had an idea of what would be involved. I did it by hand and not a tool that could be dialed in to a specific i.d. Just a little at a time, de-burr, clean, then play test.[/quote]

Bravo!
</QUOTE>
Thanks!

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2022-03-06 2:14 p.m.

What i'd really like to try next is a dual bore slide. .547/.562. I believe the 159's came with those. Just curious as to how it would suite me physically. Anyone try one on a Holton bass?

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2022-03-06 2:57 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]What i'd really like to try next is a dual bore slide. .547/.562. I believe the 159's came with those. Just curious as to how it would suite me physically. Anyone try one on a Holton bass?[/quote]

I have a Holton tr159 here right now. I really like it. It's a comfortable open blow and you can steer it in any direction you want. Nice tenor sound with a 5G. Good bass sound with a 1½G.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2022-03-06 3:32 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="CarlVicVogel" post_id="168535" time="1642377247" user_id="14626">
This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.

Thanks

CarlVicVogel[/quote]

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:

1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )

2) De-bracing

3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves

4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.
</QUOTE>

Show us some pics! Which all braces did you remove, and which did you keep?

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2022-03-07 10:16 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]<QUOTE author="Backbone" post_id="172709" time="1646082125" user_id="3014">

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:

1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )

2) De-bracing

3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves

4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.[/quote]

Show us some pics! Which all braces did you remove, and which did you keep?
</QUOTE>

Lets see if this works

<GOOGLEDRIVE id="11US3d5chspwj2UrXRhpQpKs7dJ2YyQgq"><LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/11US3d5 ... p=drivesdk">https://drive.google.com/file/d/11US3d5chspwj2UrXRhpQpKs7dJ2YyQgq/view?usp=drivesdk</LINK_TEXT></GOOGLEDRIVE>

zkrepps · by **zkrepps** » 2023-06-08 2:14 p.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="173139" time="1646598762" user_id="10390">

Show us some pics! Which all braces did you remove, and which did you keep?[/quote]

Lets see if this works

<GOOGLEDRIVE id="11US3d5chspwj2UrXRhpQpKs7dJ2YyQgq"><LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/11US3d5 ... p=drivesdk">https://drive.google.com/file/d/11US3d5chspwj2UrXRhpQpKs7dJ2YyQgq/view?usp=drivesdk</LINK_TEXT></GOOGLEDRIVE>
</QUOTE>

Looks beautiful! I'm looking into picking up a 181 soon (I learned on a 181 and finally have some money to buy a horn that isn't a Chinese knock off), I might have to take a stab at debracing in a similar manner!

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-06-21 10:30 a.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="Backbone" post_id="173134" time="1646594093" user_id="3014">
What i'd really like to try next is a dual bore slide. .547/.562. I believe the 159's came with those. Just curious as to how it would suite me physically. Anyone try one on a Holton bass?[/quote]

I have a Holton tr159 here right now. I really like it. It's a comfortable open blow and you can steer it in any direction you want. Nice tenor sound with a 5G. Good bass sound with a 1½G.
</QUOTE>

My 159 is in the shop now getting a plug in valve made for another horn adapted to it. I've found the same with the tenor/bass duality.

The original valve on the 159 is tiny, but it seems to work well, even below the staff. The plugin valve has a (much bigger) II valve, so we'll see how/if that works, and if I'll need to replace the original valve.

There was a Shires valve that was particularly small, if I remember. The idea appears to work even if it looks like it shouldn't.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2023-06-21 12:34 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone" post_id="173136" time="1646596655" user_id="62">

I have a Holton tr159 here right now. I really like it. It's a comfortable open blow and you can steer it in any direction you want. Nice tenor sound with a 5G. Good bass sound with a 1½G.[/quote]

My 159 is in the shop now getting a plug in valve made for another horn adapted to it. I've found the same with the tenor/bass duality.

The original valve on the 159 is tiny, but it seems to work well, even below the staff. The plugin valve has a (much bigger) II valve, so we'll see how/if that works, and if I'll need to replace the original valve.

There was a Shires valve that was particularly small, if I remember. The idea appears to work even if it looks like it shouldn't.
</QUOTE>

I am curious about the valve size. My 181 has tiny rotors as well. That is what has me wondering if the 159 dual bore slide would work better for me than a straight .562 bass slide that it comes with.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-06-23 9:31 a.m.

[quote="Backbone"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="213187" time="1687357842" user_id="104">

My 159 is in the shop now getting a plug in valve made for another horn adapted to it. I've found the same with the tenor/bass duality.

The original valve on the 159 is tiny, but it seems to work well, even below the staff. The plugin valve has a (much bigger) II valve, so we'll see how/if that works, and if I'll need to replace the original valve.

There was a Shires valve that was particularly small, if I remember. The idea appears to work even if it looks like it shouldn't.[/quote]

I am curious about the valve size. My 181 has tiny rotors as well. That is what has me wondering if the 159 dual bore slide would work better for me than a straight .562 bass slide that it comes with.
</QUOTE>

Tiny valves. Might look tiny. Question. Do you know what the internal dimension of the valve tubing is?? If it's like the older Holton(169, 185) it's .585. That is smaller than a Bach, Conn, and virtually every other bass trombone. With the 181 the main issue with that instrument playing stuffy is the bracing. Read what others have done here with their 181s. Sometimes the valve ports can be opened up slightly and that makes a difference. I doubt a dual bore slide will help but who knows.

Backbone · by **Backbone** » 2023-06-23 11:27 a.m.

Great points, WGWTR180. I have de-braced the valve section and opened up the rotors with good results. Its just a curiosity thing.

I was originally going up in mpc size. Started with a 1 1/2G. Got to a Yeo replica and came to my senses. Now I am on a Rath B2. Not sure but I think that is around a 1 1/2 or 2G size. Best move I've made so far.

Now just wondering what effects the 547/559 or 547/562 slide would have on my playing. Does it suit me better? I don't know - hence the curiosity factor. Maybe the valves do not factor in. Maybe they do. I don't know.

Sure wish I could try one out but that is not always an easy endeavor. A good ol' play test would solve the curiosity factor for sure.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-06-23 11:46 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Tiny valves. Might look tiny. Question. Do you know what the internal dimension of the valve tubing is?? If it's like the older Holton(169, 185) it's .585. That is smaller than a Bach, Conn, and virtually every other bass trombone. With the 181 the main issue with that instrument playing stuffy is the bracing. Read what others have done here with their 181s. Sometimes the valve ports can be opened up slightly and that makes a difference. I doubt a dual bore slide will help but who knows.[/quote]

I don't have the horn here at home right now, but I'll measure it when I get it back. The Shires valve I was thinking of is the Dual Bore valve. It's smaller than the rest of the valves, and when I was setting up a Shires for myself, it was the one I selected as the best suiting my playing.

There's also the thread about basses with different valves, and I'll probably post to that when I get mine back. The plug in valve is a big Instrument Innovations valve. I'll be interested to see if it plays awkwardly in any way, with such asymmetrical valves, although they'd be dependent. I'd rather not mess with the original valve if there isn't any need to, but at the same time, I'm not sure putting a second small valve like that on the plug in would be a great idea. No real way to know until you try.

The bell throat on the 159 is slightly larger than an 88h, but much smaller than the Wessex Super Tenor I had. The Wessex also had relatively large valve. Still, the 159 plays better in the bass range than the Wessex. The Wessex slide was unreasonably short, and the 159 seems to have a relatively long slide. That helps get an almost-in-tune low C.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-06-23 9:42 p.m.

Interestingly, the Shires dual bore rotor is actually larger on the exit port than their standard. I was told when I was investigating shortening mine to G, that the tubing is .562 all the way to the re-entrance of the rotor, which is where the difference began. I didn’t think to ask, I wonder if there’s a taper kind of like the progressive bore Hagmann or something, otherwise I don’t know how the casing can be that much smaller.

On these Holtons, is the tubing and valve bore a standard size or are they perhaps slightly smaller?

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-06-23 10:26 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Interestingly, the Shires dual bore rotor is actually larger on the exit port than their standard. I was told when I was investigating shortening mine to G, that the tubing is .562 all the way to the re-entrance of the rotor, which is where the difference began. I didn’t think to ask, I wonder if there’s a taper kind of like the progressive bore Hagmann or something, otherwise I don’t know how the casing can be that much smaller.

On these Holtons, is the tubing and valve bore a standard size or are they perhaps slightly smaller?[/quote]
On the basses slightly smaller than almost every maker.

blast · by **blast** » 2023-07-07 6:04 p.m.

No pictures yet, but I got some parts from a friend

that have allowed me to build up a Holton TR185. Still needs cleaning up, but I am impressed with this beast. Fairly heavy bell that gives a dense, dark sound. I have been able to assemble two slides that give very different results. The first is a standard Holton slide that gives the instrument a typical Holton feel and sound. The second is a little bit special... slot in pipe, brass outer slides with nickel silver Holton bottom bow (I didn't know they made them). This pushes it in a Conn or Bach like direction. Final finishing still to do, but it seems really really nice.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-07-07 10:25 p.m.

[quote="blast"]No pictures yet, but I got some parts from a friend

that have allowed me to build up a Holton TR185. Still needs cleaning up, but I am impressed with this beast. Fairly heavy bell that gives a dense, dark sound. I have been able to assemble two slides that give very different results. The first is a standard Holton slide that gives the instrument a typical Holton feel and sound. The second is a little bit special... slot in pipe, brass outer slides with nickel silver Holton bottom bow (I didn't know they made them). This pushes it in a Conn or Bach like direction. Final finishing still to do, but it seems really really nice.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f631" tseq="1f631">😱</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f631" tseq="1f631">😱</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f631" tseq="1f631">😱</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f631" tseq="1f631">😱</EMOJI>

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-04-08 8:56 a.m.

Okay resurrecting this thread. Should've posted this a year ago but I've been busy. Originally a single valve 185. I decided to go the inline route for this project. A big thanks to Matthew Walker at M&W for agreeing to take this on.

Fridge · by **Fridge** » 2024-04-08 10:06 a.m.

Absolutely stunning Bill!

Fridge

RichC · by **RichC** » 2024-04-08 1:02 p.m.

wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.

So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?

blast · by **blast** » 2024-04-08 1:52 p.m.

[quote="RichC"]wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.

So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?[/quote]
I wasn't going to say anything....

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2024-04-08 2:28 p.m.

Gorgeous, Bill!

I somehow have in my possession not one but *two* Minick Holtons - a 180 and a 185, both converted to independent. I'll post pics soon!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-04-08 4:41 p.m.

[quote="RichC"]wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.

So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?[/quote]
The hose clamp. Yes I knew someone would ask. The top of the slide has a major split so I put this clamp on with very little tension. It's to keep the split from growing until I can get to my tech for a proper fix.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-04-08 4:42 p.m.

[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="RichC" post_id="239901" time="1712595725" user_id="146">
wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.

So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?[/quote]
I wasn't going to say anything....
</QUOTE>

HA! Please read above. However I should spread a rumor that it's a tone enhancer of some kind to stir things up. :tongue:

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-04-08 4:43 p.m.

[quote="ngrinder"]Gorgeous, Bill!

I somehow have in my possession not one but *two* Minick Holtons - a 180 and a 185, both converted to independent. I'll post pics soon![/quote]
Thanks! Too bad I don't know where you live. But I do know where you work. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2024-04-09 3:48 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="ngrinder" post_id="239907" time="1712600880" user_id="3140">
Gorgeous, Bill!

I somehow have in my possession not one but *two* Minick Holtons - a 180 and a 185, both converted to independent. I'll post pics soon![/quote]
Thanks! Too bad I don't know where you live. But I do know where you work. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
</QUOTE>

When you’re down there, let me know!

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2024-04-09 9:08 p.m.

Hopefully these pics post on the thread, But here’s a link to the whole album:

https://imgur.com/gallery/pGbhyTJ

I was really lucky to find these two great instruments within the past few months - a 180 *and* a 185, both modified to be independent by Larry Minick.

They both play wonderfully, but are quite different. The 185 has very well defined slots, a heavier bell, but tons of color and character. The 180 is much lighter and more nimble, even with the larger 10in bell, and is extremely flexible color-wise. Both came with removable Minick pipes (the 180 came with two), and I’ve been having a great time experimenting with the everything. I’m spoiled to have three great Holtons - these two, and my E185, which I keep at my show and is my favorite of the three. Eventually I will probably let the 180 go, as I do prefer the smaller 9.5 inch bell.

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