I know there are variations in Bach horns. I've played quite a few, even owning a NY 36B bell section with a newer slide for awhile. (I sold it when I came across a late 70's 36B that I preferred; maybe it was the yellow bell instead of the copper one on the NY one)

My question is, what are the years to avoid? I've heard the horns made during the strike had some quality issues, no surprise there, but when was the strike, how long did it last, and what issues should one look out for?

I've been happy with several 42's I've owned and played that date from the early 80's through the mid-90's. But

I remember two students that I had 15 or 20 years ago, who had rotors that would stick intermittently despite being oiled and taken back to the dealers several times. Now I'm wondering if they were produced during the strike.

We had a similar topic a little while ago. Basically, I think it comes down to this:

There are no rules.

I have a strike-era 42B right now that plays and sound great.

Also, this information may be inaccurate, but it's from sources I trust-

Production at Bach *before* the strike was not good. Bach was pumping out horns in higher quantities than they ever have (or probably will). Immediately post-strike was probably not great either, with workers learning new roles, but late '90s-early '00s horns are probably not a lot better in the QC department.

But even then, I'm sure there are amazing examples of instruments from that period. Just as there are dog NY, MV, Corp, and modern Bachs.

It's not like wine, where you have one field affected by bad conditions for a year. You have bad conditions the entire time (union workers in a factory), and grape producing vines that come and go and have good days but bad years (the workers), year in and year out.

The old wisdom we hear about "oh they used to let you walk in and try ten bells and ten slides, set aside the duds, and your walk out with one complete, awesome horn" tells you the whole story, if you read between the lines. Most of those stories are coming from people out of the years that Bach was supposed to be making great horns, not the "bad years", especially years revolving around the 2006 strike -- who here has honestly walked into a shop in the last twenty years that A. Had ten Bachs of the same model lined up and ready to go and B. Would let you actually mix and match components and dilute their stock down to garbage? I'd actually be interested in hearing your story, if someone can answer yes.

That means, basically, even during the BEST years, Mt. Vernon etc, where we get these stories from, 90% of what was on hand was not what you wanted to take home and play. This is complete guessing, but let's say of that 90%, probably 70% was maybe OK but nothing to write home about, and 30% was basically lamp shade material. I wasn't there, so I couldn't tell you. But, these stories always seem to indicate that of the ten horns, one combination was absolutely the best horns you could ever play, and the rest were pretty bad, to downright junk.

I'm not knocking Bach -- I have tried some Bach 42s that would knock your socks off. But I don't think you can go by vintage like wine. Don't be fooled by numbers and dates or what was written on the bell. If it's a great horn, you'll only know it if you try it, like the guys in the old stories say they did. They said it was mixed bag back in the bad old days. My experience says so too. Bach horns are basically pretty bad, no matter what year they are from. The ones that are still left from Mt Vernon, etc, are still left because some person went in, actually knew what they were doing, took the best combination out of the shop, and maintained the horn for decades. In other words, those horns were worth keeping and maintaining until today. So they seem great because all the crappy ones sat in the shop until they were bought by a kid who had no clue and played the horn until it was junked, or maybe got sent back, unsold. "I can't even sell this junk for parts, Bach!" "Well, Gerry, stop letting teachers come in and mix and match"

Bach has a lot in common with Gibson.

[quote="PaulT"]Bach has a lot in common with Gibson.[/quote]

The worst Gibson guitar is better than any guitar Bach ever made!

Here’s the even better part of this puzzle... we don’t even all agree on which horns of the ten you will try that are the good ones.

There are horn with obvious manufacturing (usually assembly) issues, but beyond that the variance gets very personal. What is locked in and resonant to me may be stuffy and confining to you.

Just give it a blow and see if you like it and don’t worry about the engraving.*

*says the guy with a basement full of NY, MtV, and Corp horns... yeah I’m a hypocrite.

Cheers,

Andy

I have a slide from Bach that was made in the early 80s...I don’t recall what time they switched to making garbage instruments for a while but that slide is one of the best many people have played! They all agree it is alive in your hands.

That and my Bach ‘O’ Leadpipe

Bach parts are high-quality, durable and Conn-Selmer has a robust supply chain and decades-long established dealer network so servicing is fairly easy. That cannot be said with the foreign makers. Consistency in production is hit or miss over the years. Bach has had good and bad periods, but most manufactures go through phases as they are bought and sold and that includes the boutique brands. One of the best Bach's I've played with the cleanest finish was made post-strike. Kind of like how Wal-Mart gets criticized for labor practices, when you are the biggest in the industry you are going to be more under the microscope.

Dogs in every bunch, but I think Mt Vernon. Corp-mid 70s and early 90s are the best I’ve played. Played a few 80s horns I’ve liked, and owned a Mt Vernon that just didn’t work for me. Like others have said, there are no hard and fast rules to this stuff. I always buy (or bought-not much buying to be done in these times for me) at a price where I’m confident I can resell if things don’t work out. It takes a while but you may find a great instrument.

IMHO, Bach makes great parts, usually fairly consistently, but just can't always assemble them well.

I have found that with almost ANY Bach trombone, disassembly and a careful rebuild WILL produce a great playing horn!!

ESPECIALLY if you were happy with the sound initially!

Eric

P.S.......except for the K valve....personally I can't stand it!!!!

E

I remember when buying my 42 is 2004, looking online all I could find was I should buy a Mt Vernon or a horn from the 80s and not a more recent one. 90s was bad vintage and very recent was meh... I had a good deal on one from 94 and I took it, turned out to be a really solid horn.

Now, 80s is considered okay-ish and early 90s good vintage. So my horn's vintage went from not really desirable to quite desirable...the horns didn't change though (well mine did but that's beside the point)

:idk:

I'll say like others, the engraving and the year don't matter, either it's good (and a good fit for you specifically) or not.

[quote="Bonearzt"]IMHO, Bach makes great parts, usually fairly consistently, but just can't always assemble them well.

I have found that with almost ANY Bach trombone, disassembly and a careful rebuild WILL produce a great playing horn!!

ESPECIALLY if you were happy with the sound initially![/quote]

I've heard that over and over.

When a product with many parts is massed produced I'm sure that a person could run across a bad example without even trying hard. The converse is true too; an inconsistent manufacturing era might produce gems. I've experienced both. I purchased a Bach 42B and a 50B in early 1982, while I was in grad school that soon turned out to be real turkeys, with poor lacquer, noisy and sluggish valves, and mediocre slides. I had them back in the shop numerous times for repairs, but the flaws were never fully corrected over the ten plus years that I played them. I sold them eventually.

I had a chance to play long term on a late 90's's era Bach 42B open wrap some years later and found that horn to be much like what I had expected out of my older horns but didn't get. It had none of the manufacturing issues and played really well. Actually my 80's era horns played well too, apart from the mechanical issues, so my complaints were more about build quality and durability than how they played.